Why I stick with Nightforce and Leupold.....

Rust

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Not being especially rich any new scope has to be carefully considered in terms of performance and price, does it perform its intended function and is it in a price range I want. Well, there is another consideration, will the company be around ten or twenty years from now (which is about as far as I figure I've got left).

Just saw that March is shutting down and dumping its inventory. Really good scopes but now orphaned. I remember Premier Reticle was a really good scope, pricey and now orphaned. I've got a couple of old Redfields from say forty years back, good scopes at the time but orphaned. Yeah the nameplate is back for sales purposes but it's a different company. B&L, well at east the name went away but they were basically the high end Bushnells so at least the parent company is still active.

So I'm seeing a few new companies with high end optics with high end prices and just have to wonder how long they will be around since there really isn't a repair company I know of that will handle orphans if repair is needed. I'll grant a good scope should last a lifetime barring beating it to death.

And so I stick to companies that have been around and feel fairly assured they will stay around. YMMV.
 

rangerlong

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Nightforce has only been around for about 27 years.
You’re not wrong, but even long lived companies that were once innovative market leaders collapse in the face changing market conditions.
Kodak?
Sears?
How are their warranties holding up?
 
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19Scout77

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I think you may be mistaken about March shutting down and should not pass on partial information. I have no interest in it whatsoever but the 15 seconds I have dedicated to the issue indicate that it is much more likely that March’s US distributer is at issue, not March itself. Plus...leupold kinda sucks!
 

308pirate

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I think you may be mistaken about March shutting down and should not pass on partial information. I have no interest in it whatsoever but the 15 seconds I have dedicated to the issue indicate that it is much more likely that March’s US distributer is at issue, not March itself. Plus...leupold kinda sucks!
100% this.

It's ridiculous how people believe the first thing they read and do no homework before repeating it.
 

bourbonbent

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Wondering if you're going to edit or retract that statement
That or provide a press release or the like explicitly stating the shutdown of March as a company.

Haven’t seen one, but to be fair I’m not all knowing and all seeing.
 

SIlabs

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Owned a lot of different brands of scopes over a long time.....Weaver, Redfield, Leupold, Swarovski, Zeiss, S&B, Nightforce, etc. Most all have worked for my budget and use at the time....but I have upgraded based on what works for my "eyes"...I have had pretty good luck with scope failures…..the only scopes I have had to send back for repairs were Leupolds….
 

rcmigpilot

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The two announcements below are copied directly from the marchscopes.com web site. Sure doesn't look like they're going anywhere.


Change of distributor and warranty in North America.
Posted 06/24/2019


We appreciate your continuous patronage toward March Scopes. March Scopes are all hand made by Japanese craftsmen using only genuine Japanese made parts.

March Optics USA has long been March Scope’s distributor in the North America. However they are no longer distributing March Scopes.

March Optics USA will continue to sell their scopes at stock, but if the scopes you wish are out of stock or if you’d like to purchase our new products please contact DEON – March Scope’s manufacturer in Japan. Please click here to contact.




Newest product 5x-42×56 will be coming soon!
Posted 06/25/2019


DEON is excited to announce that we will launch our newest 5x-42×56 scope during 2019.

We presented the concept model of 5x-42×56 scope at the Shot Show (Las Vegas, USA) in January 2019 and at the IWA (Nuremberg, Germany) in March 2019.
After various tests, we are prepared to launch the long-awaited 5x-42×56 scope.

We even added several new features to the concept model and we believe that this scope will satisfy your needs.
We will inform you the specification of this special scope shortly.

Please look forward to our newest 5x-42×56 scope!
 

8pointer

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The two announcements below are copied directly from the marchscopes.com web site. Sure doesn't look like they're going anywhere.


Change of distributor and warranty in North America.
Posted 06/24/2019


We appreciate your continuous patronage toward March Scopes. March Scopes are all hand made by Japanese craftsmen using only genuine Japanese made parts.

March Optics USA has long been March Scope’s distributor in the North America. However they are no longer distributing March Scopes.

March Optics USA will continue to sell their scopes at stock, but if the scopes you wish are out of stock or if you’d like to purchase our new products please contact DEON – March Scope’s manufacturer in Japan. Please click here to contact.




Newest product 5x-42×56 will be coming soon!
Posted 06/25/2019


DEON is excited to announce that we will launch our newest 5x-42×56 scope during 2019.

We presented the concept model of 5x-42×56 scope at the Shot Show (Las Vegas, USA) in January 2019 and at the IWA (Nuremberg, Germany) in March 2019.
After various tests, we are prepared to launch the long-awaited 5x-42×56 scope.

We even added several new features to the concept model and we believe that this scope will satisfy your needs.
We will inform you the specification of this special scope shortly.

Please look forward to our newest 5x-42×56 scope!
Geez that thread came full circle in a hurry.
 

Rust

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So, Shiraz Balolia is calling it quits, thus currently no US importer/distributor for March scopes in the US, meaning for the time being at least, orphaned in the US. This may or may not change. Keep in mind there never would have been March scopes without Shiraz in the first place. He and a few others wanted a better bench rest scope and after the European scope makers wouldn't/couldn't do what they wanted, they went to Deon in Japan to develop what they wanted. Spent their own money to get it started.

Anyhow, currently orphaned in the US. Somebody may pick them up. Somebody may not.

I'll grant Leupold has sat on it's hands as far as new product development goes, but years back they were pretty much as good as it got. Lay that on bean counters and myopic management. Got my first in '66 or so, still works fine. So do all the rest since the first one. I suspect those scopes and Leupold will be around longer than I will.

Nightforce, picked up the first in '96(?) or so. It's had it's knobs spun a lot since then and still tracks. Picked up a few more since with various reticles. 27 years is it? Long time in this market. Probably still be around after I'm gone.

Bottom line to me is the $3000 plus tactical scope market is fiercely competitive, likely to plateau and contract somewhat. I want someone to be around to pick up the phone if I have to call.
 
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Fig

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I understand requiring an expensive piece of kit to have a good warranty...
However, there are great scopes out with a great manufacturer's warranty that are supported from Europe. Because it takes two extra days in shipping is not a deal breaker for me. In the grand scheme of things being supported from Austria or Germany would not make me hesitate to buy a quality optic if I thought it was worth it. Also the fact that it's the Manufacturer who is supporting it directly is actually a better deal, IMO, than a distributor who is supporting a product they don't make. Obviously there are exceptions like MHS.
 

garandman

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I've had a dozen (or more) Leupold scopes. I know the super tacticool operators that darken this forum hate Leup. But I've only ever had 1 Leupold that disappointed me - when I bought the wrong scope for the task / cheaped out and didn't but enuf scope.

They work, and are as relaible as anything else out there (in their same price point)
 

Fig

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Unertls worked fantastic for generations of military marksmen too. There isn't a more snipery or historically OAF optic than a 10X Unertl.

Guess what, they went out of business. They did absolutely ZERO to improve or inovate their rifle optic and got lapped several times before the military said no thanks and phased them out. They tried to make optical sights for fighter aircraft, but a successful business model it did not make, and those have pretty much gone the way of the dodo with electro optics.

Leopold has been the same for at least a generation, and their scopes are generations old technology and quality. The Leopolds my dad bought are virtually the same ones you can buy today. What they have today that is at all competitive in this market is a copy of someone else's scope. That's the only reason they're in this market at all.

Old men who post in hunting forums, guys who don't even shoot twenty cartridges a year, and have no idea what real marksmanship is, swear by them and get huffy when you explain why they're crap. 7101793
 

Rust

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Unertls worked fantastic for generations of military marksmen too. There isn't a more snipery or historically OAF optic than a 10X Unertl.

Guess what, they went out of business. They did absolutely ZERO to improve or inovate their rifle optic and got lapped several times before the military said no thanks and phased them out. They tried to make optical sights for fighter aircraft, but a successful business model it did not make, and those have pretty much gone the way of the dodo with electro optics.

Leopold has been the same for at least a generation, and their scopes are generations old technology and quality. The Leopolds my dad bought are virtually the same ones you can buy today. What they have today that is at all competitive in this market is a copy of someone else's scope. That's the only reason they're in this market at all.

Old men who post in hunting forums, guys who don't even shoot twenty cartridges a year, and have no idea what real marksmanship is, swear by them and get huffy when you explain why they're crap. View attachment 7101793
OK. Explain why Leupolds are crap. In what way for instance would my 6.5 X 20 EFR be a bad rimfire target scope? In what way would my 8.5 X 25 LRT be a bad any/any prone or F/TR rifle scope? In what way would my plain old 6X be a bad hunting scope? While you are at it, explain what "real marksmanship" is? I mean I've shot everything from 50 rimfire to 1,000 benchrest, but I could have missed something along the way over the last fifty years or so... Feel free to spread enlightenment.
 

garandman

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OK. Explain why Leupolds are crap. In what way for instance would my 6.5 X 20 EFR be a bad rimfire target scope? In what way would my 8.5 X 25 LRT be a bad any/any prone or F/TR rifle scope? In what way would my plain old 6X be a bad hunting scope? While you are at it, explain what "real marksmanship" is? I mean I've shot everything from 50 rimfire to 1,000 benchrest, but I could have missed something along the way over the last fifty years or so... Feel free to spread enlightenment.

Forget it bro. It's an irrational hatred of Leup / arrogance that their equipment Is better / Garbage they pulled off the Internet
 
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deersniper

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Everyone knows Nightforce is the best most durable optic and leupolds break every day.

Seriously Leupold is fine but they have had problems over the years with canted reticles/bad turrets etc.
 
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USMC_JA

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Unertls worked fantastic for generations of military marksmen too. There isn't a more snipery or historically OAF optic than a 10X Unertl.

Guess what, they went out of business. They did absolutely ZERO to improve or inovate their rifle optic and got lapped several times before the military said no thanks and phased them out. They tried to make optical sights for fighter aircraft, but a successful business model it did not make, and those have pretty much gone the way of the dodo with electro optics.

Leopold has been the same for at least a generation, and their scopes are generations old technology and quality. The Leopolds my dad bought are virtually the same ones you can buy today. What they have today that is at all competitive in this market is a copy of someone else's scope. That's the only reason they're in this market at all.

Old men who post in hunting forums, guys who don't even shoot twenty cartridges a year, and have no idea what real marksmanship is, swear by them and get huffy when you explain why they're crap. View attachment 7101793
I'm no Leupy fanboi, although I do own a Mk5 3.6 which I admittedly am really enjoying on my SPR. The Mk5, especially the 3.6, is a damn nice scope with plenty of innovation. Reticles are lacking a bit. But the scope is almost peerless with respect size, weight, price, feature set and performance.

The MK8's are too expensive. But there is also innovation there, good optics, and a good feature set.

I cannot comment on Leupy "Fudd" scopes as I do not own them nor do I pay much attention to them.
 

OverWatching

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This is why I buy Vortex. The warranty. I find the price reasonable and the glass excellent. Maybe not NF quality, but close. I just know if I drop things on a mountain the one thing to get destroyed in my scope. Or I could stop dropping things, but all know that's not going to happen.
 
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garandman

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Everyone knows Nightforce is the best most durable optic and leupolds break every day.

Seriously Leupold is fine but they have had problems over the years with canted reticles/bad turrets etc.

What did they say just above about perpetuating bad info?

Things that you have read on the Internet that you don't have personal information about n cannot give the exact context and circumstances n which scope model you are talking about really isn't providing any helpful useful data for this convo.
 
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VaRandy

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Everyone knows Nightforce is the best most durable optic and leupolds break every day.

Seriously Leupold is fine but they have had problems over the years with canted reticles/bad turrets etc.
Leos work fine for maybe 90 per cent of owners where they use it for plinking or hunting at the same small range such as 200-400 yards. They have problem with the heavy exercising of the knobs such as many LR users, PRS type competitions, etc. Even a dedicated 1000 yard competition sees very little knob movement and will probably work forever. I remember when NF first came out and I was shooting it in IBS matches. Everyone at the time was aware of the constant failure of the Leos that seemed to be even worse when compared to the NF. I also remember one of the IBS heavies making a call to what I believe to be CEO of Leopold over the rate of failures and the CEO told him that Leopold was made for 95% of users (regular people) and they would stick with that plan AND not to call again because of product failures. Good enough is not where I have been going ever since.

On the other hand the newer models 5 & 6 appear to be very special for the company but only time will show whether the controls are up to the very nice glass they have.
 

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What did they say just above about perpetuating bad info?

Things that you have read on the Internet that you don't have personal information about n cannot give the exact context and circumstances n which scope model you are talking about really isn't providing any helpful useful data for this convo.
You're assuming alot in your statement. That's why people have issues with what you type.
 
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Supersubes

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What did they say just above about perpetuating bad info?

Things that you have read on the Internet that you don't have personal information about n cannot give the exact context and circumstances n which scope model you are talking about really isn't providing any helpful useful data for this convo.

What did they say just above about perpetuating bad info?

Things that you have read on the Internet that you don't have personal information about n cannot give the exact context and circumstances n which scope model you are talking about really isn't providing any helpful useful data for this convo.

You must have misunderstood his post. It was tongue in cheek along with some factual stuff. Leupold has earned its poor reputation here. Should we re-hash that all in this post, or paraphrase our experiences?
 

Long Range 338

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OP does have a point in the sense that there are a ton of new scope brands that didn't exist 10 years ago. Vortex being the #1 new kid on the block - they obviously have the right marketing plan as they are a major player in such a short time. It's not that there are that many manufacturers, quite the opposite. Time will tell how the many players find their niche as the market gets more and more competitive.

Just looking at the European scope makers we have a lot of choices S&B, Steiner, Minox, Kahles, Zeiss, Hensolt, etc.

Leopold has made their own bed with the bad reputation as far as LR optics are concerned. They did the same as Unertl and sat one their heels without innovating for far too long. Come on, does anybody think that the LRP or Mark4 are a competitive option in 2018? I will give them credit for the Mark 5 series as it seems to be doing quite well. If they would adopt some better reticles they could actually be more popular as the old heart strings really want to support "Made in USA" products. The Mark 6 was problematic with its turrets and hurt Leupold as they didn't seem to resolve the issue to satisfaction. By all accounts the Mark 8 is supposed to be a remarkable optic for a lot of money with the limited choice of reticles (enter Euro options for less money). Leupold has maintained their hold in the hunting, BR, and Rimfire worlds so its not that they aren't a good solid company, they just didn't innovate in the LR world for a very long time. Hopefully that has changed as the Mark 5 series is expanding and seems to be doing very well.
 

garandman

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You must have misunderstood his post. It was tongue in cheek along with some factual stuff. Leupold has earned its poor reputation here. Should we re-hash that all in this post, or paraphrase our experiences?

No, I understood perfectly well. Mine was a tongue in cheek use of a tongue in cheek post.

Here's thing.... All your experiences don't out weigh my personal experiences (all good. And like a said, a dozen or more)

Maybe you guys all do same as another poster admitted above.... you drop your rifles too much (hint: tongue in cheek)


Y'alls (IMO irrational) hatred of Leupold is WELL documented. No need to re-hash it for my benefit. :) That's as irrational as is blind Leup loyalty and denying thre are other good scope manfs out there.
 
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garandman

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I think the one legit criticism of Leupold was their stubborn lack of innovation as they WERE (past tense) the unrivalled 800 lb gorilla in the scope world for a loooonnngg time.

That time is well behind us (them) Too many players putting out too much quality product now.

Their $300 two- hunting- trips- a- year deer rifle scopes are NOT legit comparisons to all that.

They do make some really good stuff now... I've got their Mark 4 and Mark 6 stuff (to name but two) and both run great. 100% reliable.

A big factor in putting down Leupold is attempting justification of one's own spending $2,500 on another manufactuer, when you coulda gotten a Leup that does 95% of the same for $1,800 ....that has an excellent warranty...and is more than reliable.
 

garandman

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You're assuming alot in your statement. That's why people have issues with what you type.

No. Read the OPs stmt that I quoted. He said "They (Leup) have had problems..."

If he had ANY personal firsthand problems, he would have said so. He didn't. Regurgiting 3rd hand rumors is unhelpful, at best.

(SOME) Ppl have issues with what I type cuz I don't kiss butt / suck up to them or their biases. :)
 

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No. Read the OPs stmt that I quoted. He said "They (Leup) have had problems..."

If he had ANY personal firsthand problems, he would have said so. He didn't. Regurgiting 3rd hand rumors is unhelpful, at best.

(SOME) Ppl have issues with what I type cuz I don't kiss butt / suck up to them or their biases. :)
Your quote that I replied to was from @deersniper. It's about to not matter on my end though.
 
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garandman

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Does someone care to guess why EVERYONE knows that Leupold has some of the best customer service in the industry?

Cuz... Good news spreads quickly? Cuz There's just way more Leup out there than any other manufacturer ? Cuz fudd deerslayers drop their rifles alot? Cuz the same internet story gets spread 1000 times over?

I dunno. I've never once used their customer service, on any of the dozen Leups I've owned.
 

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Wow! Leupold (That's LOOO-FUCK to you!) replaced your Vortex? You must have been as relentless on their CS as you are here! Did you just wear them down month after month till they sent you the scope to just go away? No wonder you're such a Leo-Pold fanatic!
 
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garandman

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Wow! Leupold (That's LOOO-FUCK to you!) replaced your Vortex? You must have been as relentless on their CS as you are here! Did you just wear them down month after month till they sent you the scope to just go away? No wonder you're such a Leo-Pold fanatic!

RIF