Why do all my high end scopes stick in precision matched ring bottoms while installing on a precision 1-piece base????

azpaleo

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Hi,
I have yet to find an answer that makes sense, so here is my question.

When I lay my scope down into the ring bottoms gently after the rings have been torqued to spec on the 1-piece rail (50-65 in. lb- depending on the ring specs), it does do not glide freely. the scope sticks, so when getting my reticle vertical to the plumb line, I have to pull the scope up, rotate and set it back down instead of gently tapping the adjustment knob (parallax-windage) on either side. This is in all of my scope/ring combinations, but only in two-piece matched rings. Not in a 1-piece ring.... Everything is high dollar as well. Badger Ordnance one-piece 20 MOA base, Badger rings, Leupold Mark 4 scope, same type rings and base with night force NXS, Vortex PMR Rings, Seekins rings Vortex Gen 2 Razor on Cadex chassis, and AIAX chassis, Badger base, PMR rings, gen 1 razors...….. LOTS~!!!!!! They all stick in every combo...…… BUT!!!! with a 1-piece base such as the Larue Tactical (for the MK13 Mod 7), the scope glides and will move with the lightest finger touch...…..

I was told that that is normal since there are allowable tolerances in rings and the scope stickiness is not mis-alignment of the rings, bit a very precise set of matched rings and the scope paint coating not yet compressed. The worst is with Badger steel rings and Mark 4 scopes, but Gen 2 Razors (all 5) stick in the ring bottoms. Now as a test, I used a single ring, and the scopes glide freely, but when the cross bolts/screws are torqued to the base, the scope sticks at the bottom..... Not super-stuck like out of round,,,, but not gliding in the rings before I assemble the tops. I did notice that when I torqued the tops, then removed them and scope, and re-installed the scope a couple of times, they were much easier to move in the bottoms. That's a lot of money in mounts/scopes...……. to be screwing with. I know how to install a scope, so it's not me, but I have even switched rings on different bases with different scopes and they do the same thing even after checking the bases to make sure they are not bent from a wacked receiver. I did have a base once that was not flat due to needing a small amount of bedding in the rear. But this is not the case. Do you find this normal with a set of Seekins/Vortex/or Badger rings on precision bases????????

Is it just that the rings and scopes are so precisely machined that with a pair of rings, there is a slight grip when they mate up because they are never going to be as perfectly aligned as a 1-piece base and the tolerances are so tight?????

Thanks for any advise!!!
 

strikeeagle1

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I just installed a S&B 1-8x24 Dual CC scope into a precision GDI quick disconnect mount and experienced similar observations. It was hard to rotate the scope in the not-yet tightened rings without the whole gun moving. I triple bubble-leveled the rifle / scope during installation but when I was done, the gap between the upper / lower rings on the right / left side where not symmetrical.......drove me nuts, I am pretty sure it doesn't make a bit of difference however released the screws and incrementally tightened them so the gaps where equal when torque setting reached. I chalked it up to just really close tolerances of parts.IMG_2043 copy.JPGIMG_2045 copy.JPG
 
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spife7980

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Because it’s a close tight fit. No room for wiggle.

The only time I’ve had a scope slide easily is in the aero ar mount. So a one piece like you noted. Only difference is it scratched the scope tube up unlike the tight arc, nightforce, Steiner, leupold rings I’ve used.
 

flyer

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When you torque the rings, are you pushing them forward to make the recoil lug press against the rail slot side?

A possible solution is to snug the ring to the base, align the scope and then torque the ring mounting screws after things are lined up.
 
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azpaleo

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When you torque the rings, are you pushing them forward to make the recoil lug press against the rail slot side?

A possible solution is to snug the ring to the base, align the scope and then torque the ring mounting screws after things are lined up.
HMMMMMMMMM...……… Yes!! Good thought...……. I always do. What I probably need to do before I take my first shot is to un-bolt the ring side cross-bolts and re-check the torque on the ring tops (about 18 inch pounds, then push forward on the lug and snug it up. That way I know that the scope-ring tension is relieved and they are on square before torqueing on the mount. Great catch!!!!!!!!!! Thanks!!!!!!
 
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azpaleo

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Another question...…….. I had GA Precision make me a 300 win mag build on a Remington 700 action/Bartlein barrel in an AIAX chassis. When they received the rings to cerakote to match the chassis (as they requested), they cerakoted the inside of the rings as well (I was not happy with that!)!!. They are Vortex precision matched PMR rings. Ga Precision said it wouldn't hurt anything because when they aluminum oxide blast the finish for prep they apply the same amount of cerakote back on making no change to the final dimensions. Do you see any problems arising from this??? They seemed to install fine. I just hope the scope doesn't slip under recoil. Just a little spooky!!!! They are precision rings for a reason. But then again. GA Precision should know............ I guess??????
 

azpaleo

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Thanks!!! I set up my scopes by leveling the scope mount front-back then side-side in a Tipton vise. Once its levelled in all planes, I install a barrel level and level to the mount level. I remove the mount level (making sure not to bump the barrel level!!) then remove the elevation turret and level the actual internal adjustor of the scope. I check with a plumb bob to make sure I have a straight reticle. This is all after I adjusted my eye relief standing, kneeling, and prone. I use tape to mark the position. I like to have a full forward eye relief in standing position so when I lay down, I am just at the rear area of my eye relief. No scope eye and plenty of room to relax. Relaxing is the key!!!! Shooting should be fun...… OOh Rah!
 

azpaleo

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people actually use 4 levels to set a scope up, and 99% of that stuff has no bearing on the accuracy of the optic in the mount.

And it's an AR...

OMG !

That is just crazy
OOOHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You mean the photo above!!!!! Duhhhhhhhhhh……………… Yeah, not at a that range...… At 1,000 yards and beyond...…………………. Oh yeah. matters..... Canted reticle. But really only out at serious range.
 

chevy_man

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OOOHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You mean the photo above!!!!! Duhhhhhhhhhh……………… Yeah, not at a that range...… At 1,000 yards and beyond...…………………. Oh yeah. matters..... Canted reticle. But really only out at serious range.
Simply check it with a plumb bob, set scope level to plumb reticle. Make sure it tracks up and down with the reticle, done.

Some of you really go all out. I would bet none of mine are level from receiver to scope (and you really can't use turrets, I've seen the turret not level with the reticle but the tracking was spot on with the reticle). Doesn't matter how level it is, just that your scope level is square to the reticle and you're mounting the gun with the scope level while shooting.
 

richthe1

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Never shot beyond a 1000 yards, does it really help ?



admit it you. have no clue what you are doing and feel more is better ...

but its your time and effort so have it, just don't pretend you have any idea what any of that is doing.

Ignorance is definitely bliss,
Could you go over how you recommend mounting a scope? I apologize if you’ve already covered this and I missed it.
 

azpaleo

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Never shot beyond a 1000 yards, does it really help ?



admit it you. have no clue what you are doing and feel more is better ...

but its your time and effort so have it, just don't pretend you have any idea what any of that is doing.

Ignorance is definitely bliss,
I'm so sorry that you are such an angry person that you have to ATTEMPT to insult a new member of YOUR SITE!!!!! for no reason. You are in attack mode for WHY?????????????? The whole big beautiful world is full of information on proper scope installation. You spanked the last contributor who shared his ar scope install photos, now you are insulting me,,, THE ROCKET!!!!! As you so poetically call me...…… I mean, I
 

azpaleo

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I guess I hit the send button...…………………………………. I really don't understand why someone with so much going for him could act like such an ASS...….. It's beyond ego. It's inflammatory, volatile attacks on nice people who like to shoot and are trying to make friends. Do I really have to add that I am a 100% disabled, retired Marine corps combat veteraln who is stuck in the house for serving my country??? Yeah.. that's right BRO!!!!!!!! We are the same band of brothers......... I shoot to a mile so I know how to set up a scope. It is simple.... 45 minutes to be spot on and you will know if your reticle is canted!!!!! which matters!!! Hello Leupold!!!!!!! If it doesn't matter and I'm "pretending" then why do we use scope bubbles???????? Why do you level the damn tall target at 100 yards for your calibration test!!!! Because it matters at 100 and 1000 yards. Please don't attack your members!!!!!!!!!! So you would be happy with a Tangent Theta that has a canted reticle???????? Can anyone see what's going on here?????????

I'll just go away and make you happy...………. You can get back on the top roost...……......…….. That's what your here for...…….. "HMIFC of this shit" Enjoy being alone and right...………….
 

Winny94

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I guess I hit the send button...…………………………………. I really don't understand why someone with so much going for him could act like such an ASS...….. It's beyond ego. It's inflammatory, volatile attacks on nice people who like to shoot and are trying to make friends. Do I really have to add that I am a 100% disabled, retired Marine corps combat veteraln who is stuck in the house for serving my country??? Yeah.. that's right BRO!!!!!!!! We are the same band of brothers......... I shoot to a mile so I know how to set up a scope. It is simple.... 45 minutes to be spot on and you will know if your reticle is canted!!!!! which matters!!! Hello Leupold!!!!!!! If it doesn't matter and I'm "pretending" then why do we use scope bubbles???????? Why do you level the damn tall target at 100 yards for your calibration test!!!! Because it matters at 100 and 1000 yards. Please don't attack your members!!!!!!!!!! So you would be happy with a Tangent Theta that has a canted reticle???????? Can anyone see what's going on here?????????

I'll just go away and make you happy...………. You can get back on the top roost...……......…….. That's what your here for...…….. "HMIFC of this shit" Enjoy being alone and right...………….
He is a very confrontational guy (ive had my share of spats w/ him), but hes not wrong, and no way should setting up a scope take 45 mins
 
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brianf

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Not taking sides but all this talk about scope leveling got super serious when ballistic calcs came out.

If we still had actual dope in a book we would know to add some windage at a certain distance, for whatever reason.

We became so reliant on pda that if the ret isn’t really close we get misses.

Just my opinion.
 

spife7980

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I'm so sorry that you are such an angry person that you have to ATTEMPT to insult a new member of YOUR SITE!!!!! for no reason. You are in attack mode for WHY?????????????? The whole big beautiful world is full of information on proper scope installation. You spanked the last contributor who shared his ar scope install photos, now you are insulting me,,, THE ROCKET!!!!! As you so poetically call me...…… I mean, I
I guess I hit the send button...…………………………………. I really don't understand why someone with so much going for him could act like such an ASS...….. It's beyond ego. It's inflammatory, volatile attacks on nice people who like to shoot and are trying to make friends. Do I really have to add that I am a 100% disabled, retired Marine corps combat veteraln who is stuck in the house for serving my country??? Yeah.. that's right BRO!!!!!!!! We are the same band of brothers......... I shoot to a mile so I know how to set up a scope. It is simple.... 45 minutes to be spot on and you will know if your reticle is canted!!!!! which matters!!! Hello Leupold!!!!!!! If it doesn't matter and I'm "pretending" then why do we use scope bubbles???????? Why do you level the damn tall target at 100 yards for your calibration test!!!! Because it matters at 100 and 1000 yards. Please don't attack your members!!!!!!!!!! So you would be happy with a Tangent Theta that has a canted reticle???????? Can anyone see what's going on here?????????

I'll just go away and make you happy...………. You can get back on the top roost...……......…….. That's what your here for...…….. "HMIFC of this shit" Enjoy being alone and right...………….
Chill private pyle. It just that this scope leveling nonsense has been beat to death and all of your levels dont do shit for you.

Here is the only level required to mount a scope plumb to gravity.
7075246
 

richthe1

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Chill private pyle. It just that this scope leveling nonsense has been beat to death and all of your levels dont do shit for you.

Here is the only level required to mount a scope plumb to gravity.
View attachment 7075246
Dumb question, but don’t you have to get the rifle level before mounting the scope plumb to gravity? You’ve got to use a level at some point, right? Or am I missing something?
 

spife7980

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Dumb question, but don’t you have to get the rifle level before mounting the scope plumb to gravity? You’ve got to use a level at some point, right? Or am I missing something?
Nope. The plumb bob (rock on a string) is your "level".
In your shooting position shoulder the rifle so that its comfortable so that you arent subconsciously trying to torque on it when actually shooting, with the scope in the rings spin it to align the reticle so that it is perfectly in line with the string and tighten it down. Your scope is now set up to comfortably track with gravity.
 
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azpaleo

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Nope. The plumb bob (rock on a string) is your "level".
In your shooting position shoulder the rifle so that its comfortable so that you arent subconsciously trying to torque on it when actually shooting, with the scope in the rings spin it to align the reticle so that it is perfectly in line with the string and tighten it down. Your scope is now set up to comfortably track with gravity.
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You need to be in avise of some sort....... Tipton Gun Vise is what I use...……………….. If you have a canted reticle and you crank your elevation way up, your readings will be off!!!!!! If you plub bob to the reticle you don't know if your elevation internals are true. Have a 10 degree canted reticle, crank your elevation a 1,000 yards and shoot. You may as well have a scope level bubble not level when you shoot. Why is this such an issue!!!!!!!!! do it right.... The plumb bob should indicate weather or not you have a straight verticle reticle. If it didn't matter, SOMEONE wouldn't be leveling their 100 yard tall targets in their videos...…… The verticle reticle must be level with the internal mechanism. Not the elevation turret!!!!!!!! which is a cap that is independently machined in ???? China???? Japan????? It can be off. Take it off and level the top mechanism then check in the scope with a plumb bob. You want to get intimate with your scope...………………………….. You spent thousands!!! But what do I know??? "I don't know what I'm doing" Right Frank????????? Just look on-line!!! It's not me, It's scope mechanics and science!!!! Geez.
 

azpaleo

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I just installed a S&B 1-8x24 Dual CC scope into a precision GDI quick disconnect mount and experienced similar observations. It was hard to rotate the scope in the not-yet tightened rings without the whole gun moving. I triple bubble-leveled the rifle / scope during installation but when I was done, the gap between the upper / lower rings on the right / left side where not symmetrical.......drove me nuts, I am pretty sure it doesn't make a bit of difference however released the screws and incrementally tightened them so the gaps where equal when torque setting reached. I chalked it up to just really close tolerances of parts.View attachment 7074344View attachment 7074345
And its all level...…… So what's the problem??????? Say...… say it with me now...…… C'mon Frank...….. Nice rig!!!! expensive scope. You really take pride in your work!!!!! How does it shoot??????? What range are you shooting at, what load and how are your groups..... Welcome to the site!!! Let me know if I can help at all. Do you compete????? So now...…. I ask...…… How hard is it to be nice?????? It is a nice rifle by the way... I always mount my scopes tis way minus the forward rail and then double check the elevation reticle with a plumb bob for straightness in the scope. I just never level the cap, but the elevation erector because it's more accurate as the scope cap is manufactured. I'm waiting to be kicked off this site...………...………...…. cmon…...………………. hurry...……...…...…….. How do I get out of here...………………...……………...…………………......…...……...……...…. I'm a ROCKET remember!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 

spife7980

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Jezzuz.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You need to be in avise of some sort....... Tipton Gun Vise is what I use...……………….. If you have a canted reticle and you crank your elevation way up, your readings will be off!!!!!! If you plub bob to the reticle you don't know if your elevation internals are true.
Wrong, you dont need a vice. Especially not a cheap plastic molded one.

Have a 10 degree canted reticle, crank your elevation a 1,000 yards and shoot. You may as well have a scope level bubble not level when you shoot. Why is this such an issue!!!!!!!!! do it right....
If you have a reticle thats canted inside of the scope body then you shouldnt continue to level anything, you should send it in for warranty work.

The plumb bob should indicate weather or not you have a straight verticle reticle.
Exactly. Thats what Im saying, why are you fighting it? You want the reticle vertical, thats all that matters in scope leveling. Any other issues wont be solved by more levels.

If it didn't matter, SOMEONE wouldn't be leveling their 100 yard tall targets in their videos...……
You do realize that the plumb bob is naturally level to gravity, right? And you do realize that in the videos he is leveling the target so that it is true to gravity just like... a plumb bob? And you do realize that he is running a tracking test with those nice subtended targets (not simple scope leveling) so it needs to be level for that, sure. But notice that he doesnt have 50 levels hanging off everything or any vices? He leveled the target to gravity and thats all you saw. Because thats all it takes... only it can be done without requiring a level via a rock and string.

The verticle reticle must be level with the internal mechanism. Not the elevation turret!!!!!!!! which is a cap that is independently machined in ???? China???? Japan????? It can be off. Take it off and level the top mechanism then check in the scope with a plumb bob.
Agreed, the reticle should be in line with the erector. But who was arguing against that? No one. Or you could skip leveling the "top mechanism" and cut straight to checking the scope with the plumb bob. Which is what Im saying so Im not sure if you know what you are arguing or not.

You want to get intimate with your scope...………………………….. You spent thousands!!! But what do I know??? "I don't know what I'm doing" Right Frank????????? Just look on-line!!! It's not me, It's scope mechanics and science!!!! Geez.
Apparantly you dont seem to know too much at all.
7075319
 
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strikeeagle1

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Wow. Yikes. A lot of discourse over a photo with a few bubble levels. It was just the first phase of setup for me. Whether an AR or bolt gun I take it through my own little process that works for me. I don't do much of the plumb bob in the garage but often rather look across to a house at 200+ meters and see if my reticle is square with several door frames etc. then off to the range for further validation, including tall targets and such. This will be a 300 - 400 meter max range gun, no transonic ballistics no Coriolis or Saturn gravitational spin drift. IF it doesn't seem to be setup correctly after my range visit maybe I'll send it off to a vertical gravity expert for calibration certification. Just a happy photo. Good night.
 

Fig

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Frank did all the math for a 5 deg natural cant to the rifle and it was pretty minuscule @ 1000; much less than any other factor (including spin drift;)). I searched for it and can not find it.

Frank, and many other very knowledgeable people, believe the rifle should be at your own, natural, shooting cant that feels most comfortable, not level to the center of the Earth (like the scope should be). This small deviation between the rifle barrel and the scope (as long as its barely perceptible) does not create much deviation in POA/POI. If anyone can find that it was extremely illustrative of just how small it is. I, like you, always thought everything had to be perfectly level till this was explained and I saw the math.

I have an extremely vertical butstock hold anyway, but a couple of degrees between rifle and scope does not make accuracy shit the bed even at long range (like a canted, turret reticle will as you dial). If anyone can find that it will explain it better than this thread is doing.
 

spife7980

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Frank did all the math for a 5 deg natural cant to the rifle and it was pretty minuscule @ 1000; much less than any other factor (including spin drift;)). I searched for it and can not find it.

Frank, and many other very knowledgeable people, believe the rifle should be at your own, natural, shooting cant that feels most comfortable, not level to the center of the Earth (like the scope should be). This small deviation between the rifle barrel and the scope (as long as its barely perceptible) does not create much deviation in POA/POI. If anyone can find that it was extremely illustrative of just how small it is. I, like you, always thought everything had to be perfectly level till this was explained and I saw the math.

I have an extremely vertical butstock hold anyway, but a couple of degrees between rifle and scope does not make accuracy shit the bed even at long range (like a canted, turret reticle will as you dial). If anyone can find that it will explain it better than this thread is doing.
I want to say it was only 2 degrees. The article got taken away with the home page wipe but frank will post it again at some point I’m sure.

Having the scope leveled to the rifle and canting the entire system induced an error of 11” at 1k yards I think?
But having the scope offset to the side that same 2 degrees but then leveled to gravity only induced .697” of offset? I’m pretty sure those were the numbers. It was pretty incredible.

If it’s a benchrest stock where it’s in bags and you influence the rifle as little as possible then perfectly level trough the entire system is a reasonable goal. But for a field rifle that we are going to be holding and influencing it is far better to hold the rifle comfortably and then level the scope independently.
 

natdscott

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I disagree.

For general use weapons, I level the scope to the rifle, because I fire so much from 3, 4, 19 different positions. I try my best to keep those rifles level when firing.

Only the prone only rifles get treated differently.
 
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diverdon

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I disagree.

For general use weapons, I level the scope to the rifle, because I fire so much from 3, 4, 19 different positions. I try my best to keep those rifles level when firing.

Only the prone only rifles get treated differently.
About any rifle I own can be shot prone, yet I'm having trouble visualizing a prone only rifle. Can you describe for me the particular features that make these prone only rifles unsuitible to be shot from a bench, a barricade, a tripod, or for that matter offhand.
 

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Hi,
I have yet to find an answer that makes sense, so here is my question.

When I lay my scope down into the ring bottoms gently after the rings have been torqued to spec on the 1-piece rail (50-65 in. lb- depending on the ring specs), it does do not glide freely. the scope sticks, so when getting my reticle vertical to the plumb line, I have to pull the scope up, rotate and set it back down instead of gently tapping the adjustment knob (parallax-windage) on either side. This is in all of my scope/ring combinations, but only in two-piece matched rings. Not in a 1-piece ring.... Everything is high dollar as well. Badger Ordnance one-piece 20 MOA base, Badger rings, Leupold Mark 4 scope, same type rings and base with night force NXS, Vortex PMR Rings, Seekins rings Vortex Gen 2 Razor on Cadex chassis, and AIAX chassis, Badger base, PMR rings, gen 1 razors...….. LOTS~!!!!!! They all stick in every combo...…… BUT!!!! with a 1-piece base such as the Larue Tactical (for the MK13 Mod 7), the scope glides and will move with the lightest finger touch...…..

I was told that that is normal since there are allowable tolerances in rings and the scope stickiness is not mis-alignment of the rings, bit a very precise set of matched rings and the scope paint coating not yet compressed. The worst is with Badger steel rings and Mark 4 scopes, but Gen 2 Razors (all 5) stick in the ring bottoms. Now as a test, I used a single ring, and the scopes glide freely, but when the cross bolts/screws are torqued to the base, the scope sticks at the bottom..... Not super-stuck like out of round,,,, but not gliding in the rings before I assemble the tops. I did notice that when I torqued the tops, then removed them and scope, and re-installed the scope a couple of times, they were much easier to move in the bottoms. That's a lot of money in mounts/scopes...……. to be screwing with. I know how to install a scope, so it's not me, but I have even switched rings on different bases with different scopes and they do the same thing even after checking the bases to make sure they are not bent from a wacked receiver. I did have a base once that was not flat due to needing a small amount of bedding in the rear. But this is not the case. Do you find this normal with a set of Seekins/Vortex/or Badger rings on precision bases????????

Is it just that the rings and scopes are so precisely machined that with a pair of rings, there is a slight grip when they mate up because they are never going to be as perfectly aligned as a 1-piece base and the tolerances are so tight?????

Thanks for any advise!!!



You bought the wrong rings.

Solution: American Rifle Company.
 

Lowlight

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The biggest issue is, NATURAL POSITION

We are not straight, square or level, and canting is normally subconscious which is why people have to use a level and "Look" to see it.

If you set the rifle up to your natural hold, your body will act as if the rifle is an extension of said body and mind. If you set it up in a way that goes against that, as 99% of the shooters do, your mind will attempt to correct it and you won't see it until it goes beyond 2-3 degrees when it becomes physically visible to you.

Canting a Level rifle is far worse as noted above than purposefully canting the set up to fit you the shooter.






That is not to say a level - level set up is wrong, only that there is absolutely no reason to go anal retentive on it. All the bullet cares about it is gravity. So aligning the reticle to gravity is the key, and the only consideration necessary.

The reticles are installed based on the flat of the bottom of the scope, not the turrets. You use the flat to align the bottom of the scope to the top of the, wait for it, flat rail on your rifle. You match those two pieces and the rest will follow. Once those two flats are paired, you confirm the quality of the scope by using a plumb line to make sure there is no can't from the factory.

There are situation and context of different shooting disciplines where you want the rifle as square as possible so you can manage it from both the strong and support side. However if you don't find yourself in any of those situations a rifle set up to your natural hold will be more accurate as you will be more relaxed and the body will not try to fix it.

These devices which are selling you $6 bubble levels in $100 wrappers are a complete waste of time and money. Complete waste of Time and Money, let me repeat that, Complete waste of time and money.

Your brain is far superior to those bubble levels.
 
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Strykervet

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The biggest issue is, NATURAL POSITION

We are not straight, square or level, and canting is normally subconscious which is why people have to use a level and "Look" to see it.

If you set the rifle up to your natural hold, your body will act as if the rifle is an extension of said body and mind. If you set it up in a way that goes against that, as 99% of the shooters do, your mind will attempt to correct it and you won't see it until it goes beyond 2-3 degrees when it becomes physically visible to you.

Canting a Level rifle is far worse as noted above than purposefully canting the set up to fit you the shooter.






That is not to say a level - level set up is wrong, only that there is absolutely no reason to go anal retentive on it. All the bullet cares about it is gravity. So aligning the reticle to gravity is the key, and the only consideration necessary.

The reticles are installed based on the flat of the bottom of the scope, not the turrets. You use the flat to align the bottom of the scope to the top of the, wait for it, flat rail on your rifle. You match those two pieces and the rest will follow. Once those two flats are paired, you confirm the quality of the scope by using a plumb line to make sure there is no can't from the factory.

There are situation and context of different shooting disciplines where you want the rifle as square as possible so you can manage it from both the strong and support side. However if you don't find yourself in any of those situations a rifle set up to your natural hold will be more accurate as you will be more relaxed and the body will not try to fix it.

These devices which are selling you $6 bubble levels in $100 wrappers are a complete waste of time and money. Complete waste of Time and Money, let me repeat that, Complete waste of time and money.

Your brain is far superior to those bubble levels.

It's cool you mention that, because I have the Wheeler bubble level mount kit and it's nice enough and quick enough, but honestly all that's really needed is a set of clean feeler guages! That's what USO recommended back in the day, to use feeler gauges and align the flat of the scope to the flat of the rail and the guages stay in place while mounting, scope won't move. It's certainly a much faster way and super solid, so thanks for making me remember that.
 

Lowlight

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Think about a Spuhr Mount and the "Key" used to hold the scope in place

That is it, a 50 cent piece designed to hold the flat to the flat at the bottom of the scope.

Feeler gauges are great, $7 a set (depending the scope rings you might need two sets) and it holds the scope flat and level.

Deck of cards, business cards, etc... all work.
 
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Long Range 338

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I'm sorry you feel that way...………………….. I'll leave.
Don't go away mad, hell don't even go away. You're definitely gonna take some licks on this site but that's the nature of the beast. Too much good info here you would have a very difficult time finding elsewhere. Gloss over the BS and enjoy the meat and potatoes that are here to be gleaned.
 
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