Who is using IMR 4166 for 6.5CM

AIAW

General Fingerbang
Aug 16, 2001
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#2
I can't even find load data online for that combination!

Going strictly by the burn-chart, 4166 is just a hair slower than RL12. QuickLoad doesn't have IMR 4166 in it, but it does have IMR 4064 which is one entry slower on the chart.

Just going by SAAMI spec for brass and an A-MAX 120g with a 20 inch barrel, this is what the breakdown is like. (Same charge for each powder for relation).

Burn Rates:

[IMG2=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","src":"https:\/\/s15.postimg.org\/6pcdbn4i3\/Burn_Rates.jpg"}[/IMG2]

IMR 4064:

[IMG2=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","src":"https:\/\/s15.postimg.org\/ya572wm17\/IMR4064.jpg"}[/IMG2]

Varget:

[IMG2=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","src":"https:\/\/s15.postimg.org\/ries01x1n\/Varget.jpg"}[/IMG2]

H4350:

[IMG2=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","src":"https:\/\/s15.postimg.org\/46qoayirv\/H4350.jpg"}[/IMG2]



Maybe all of this will help in a way. Definitely something you will have to work up unless someone has some closer load data for you here in this thread.
 

Lowlight

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#3
I actually had the 20" 6.5CM out but swapped it for my 22.75" barrel, so I am gonna try it...

I have loads with both Varget and H4350 to use, at least a decent starting point. But this new stuff I am not sure... the same site that says Max load is 38.5gr of 4166 is telling me 40.5 of Varget and I am running 43... so do try 41.5 ? The bullet can take it for sure, hotter is better in this case, they are saying 2800+fps and I should be able to scream this bullet faster.

I do have the longer barrel packed away incase I need it... benefit of the AX308, swap the barrels on the line.

41.5 looks like it might be the right place to try ...
 

Lowlight

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#4
I was more thinking speed I was looking for ... if I find the shorter barrel is too slow, I will swap barrels .. I have a number I am shooting for, if the 22 is too short I have a 26 to default too... but none of the numbers I saw with the 4166 appeared very fast compared. They have the charge weight down quite a bit compared to most others.

I am not changing the charge on the line, but if it starts off too slow with any of the other loads I know I have to switch barrels
 

AIAW

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#5
I actually had the 20" 6.5CM out but swapped it for my 22.75" barrel, so I am gonna try it...

I have loads with both Varget and H4350 to use, at least a decent starting point. But this new stuff I am not sure... the same site that says Max load is 38.5gr of 4166 is telling me 40.5 of Varget and I am running 43... so do try 41.5 ? The bullet can take it for sure, hotter is better in this case, they are saying 2800+fps and I should be able to scream this bullet faster.

I do have the longer barrel packed away incase I need it... benefit of the AX308, swap the barrels on the line.

41.5 looks like it might be the right place to try ...
Yeah, I'd roll with that at 41.5 grains. Maybe .010 - .020 off. The pressure on that was still just under SAAMI at 62444. Once fired brass will be even lower pressure. 22.75" tube is showing 2954 fps. Same charge but with a 26" barrel - 3037 fps. 83 more feet at the muzzle - not too shabby.

It might not treat the brass too kindly as the peak pressure is rather quick!
 

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#6
I want 2900 out of the 22... so anything over is gravy. At 2950 I this would be Rockstar Action taking place and no need to use the longer barrel.

It's a magic bullet over 2950fps ...

Once I know I can get the speed I need, I can work on the SD numbers I am not sweating that now as I am testing and with limited bullets to test, I shoot for speed then worry about the other stuff later.. I don't have a enough time or bullets to tinker, I want results and with the speed, I can fine tune in my results much faster.

I dropped a couple at 41.5grs just to see, I am using once fired Prime (Norma) brass so all good.
 

AIAW

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#7
Burn rate,does NOT translate to muzzle velocity "gains". One does not "gain" velocity,in a burning rate shift that is faster,when reducing a barrel's length.

Few are a greater fan of modest barrel lengths than I,but Physics is ALWAYS Physics. Hint.

Rather than fixate a velocity,I'd look at uniformity(ES/SD),as that constant will pay more in downrange favors. I've long been a fan of increased propellant densities(slower burning rates),to yield that very thing. If ES/SD are in check,temp swings are "doable"...then ALL else will assuredly follow suit.

Source some Alpha brass(uniformity is OFF the fucking charts),dump Re-15 into the hole and bask in the sanctity of mechanical excellence.

Just sayin'.
I'm pretty sure we know what we are both doing. He asked for load data, not a physics lesson in how to reload. His only prerequisite was to use that one single powder. He has more ideal powders available, but he wants to use this one. Gotta work within the definition set that's been given.
 

padom

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#8
I've been using AR Comp in my 22" Bartlein 6.5cm before puling it to replace. Waiting on my new 22" Rock cut rifled +2 gas 6.5cm barrel from Josh at PVA. AR Comp required way less powder than H4350 with great velocity and accuracy. I was at 37.6g with 123 Scenar at 2858fps.
 

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#9
Believe me, I am not an anal retentive reloader, but will get exactly what i need out of this ...

Speed is the key, once i have that, I can dial in a low SD, this stuff is plenty forgiving and I am not here to make a living out of the load. Full Size, and drive on... you never know what rifle i am shooting it out of.

Put it too you this way, take a 123gr Scenar use the number 2950... then add 500 yards + Of supersonic flight to it. That is what I get with this bullet.

I was asked to try this powder, I have a load using both Varget and H4350, I am just looking to see.

I am not investing in time, brass, weighing and sorting, I don't care if the SD is 10fps, that works for me in this experiment, hell even 15fps is good enough for government especially if the bullet is going 2950fps out of my 22" barrel.

99% of the time I am shooting factory ammo and succeeding with it, the bullet has to be something special to get me to reload.

I use once fired Prime brass all the time for this stuff... the bullet more than makes up for the time others spend reloading.
 

Lowlight

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#10
Not theory trust me ... have you seen what I have been doing with a 20" 308... supersonic to beyond 1500 yards.

Watch this stuff to give you an idea what can be done with Speed... and the right bullet.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/M2hwKyHq7HE" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Shooting solids is a different animal when it comes to performance and what I am working with has been tested across Doppler Radar, so no theory.

Turn around and look at the 180s loaded long out of a 20" 308, what gets me beyond 1500 yards, Speed, solids and speed go hand in hand.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/P36LozyICts" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

I have a 180gr Bullet going 2700fps out of a 20" AX with no pressure signs and I am not at max load for 2000MR the powder I am using.

Match the powder to the bullet, get the speed the bullet needs and watch the magic happen.
 

Lowlight

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#11
I am only asking about IMR 4166 because I have not used it and the Max Load listed is 38.5 and that MV is too slow to even bother... so I was hoping someone has tried it and went beyond or can give me a comparison compared to other powders. I don't have enough rounds to Tinker... bullets in this case are in limited supply and I am looking at results not a load to run with for the rest of my time.

As I said I have these loaded with H4350 and Varget, but wanted to give this a try as I have some ... if you can't answer anything about IMR 4166 are you really adding to the conversation beyond telling us you are an Anal Retentive Reloader who probably spends all his time in "Load Development" Mode ...

I have no reason to sort brass, I am not investing in a Prometheus, as it is completely unnecessary for me to go to that level. I want to reach the target speed and then the bullets will be shot past 1000 yards.

Get it, Speed ... I am shooting for a target velocity, the loads with H4350 and Varget can reach my target velocity with this bullet, I have no idea about 4166...
 
Feb 10, 2012
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#12
Probably not going to run into too many folks who have used imr 4166 in any of the mid 6.5s (260, 6.5 creedmore, 6.5x47L). imr 4451 is a better match from the Enduran line for those calibers with 120-140gr bullets. You may have to write the book on this combo ;)
 

Lowlight

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#13
Barrels are expendable ... I have 3 - 6.5CM Barrels for my AX alone, I have 3 - 260REM barrels for the same, (not counting the 2 - 260 barrels for my AW which will also fit) I have 4 - 308 Barrels ... these are just for that one rifle. Doesn't count any of the other rifles. And FYI, the AX in the Warner video is my 2010 model the AX308 I am using that has all these barrels is the 2016 model, because I traded in my 2014 model.

I have no problem calling Tracee Bartlein up and getting more, super easy. In fact I like calling them and talking to the guys there.

Again, nothing about IMR 4166, only telling me what I can and cannot do, despite the fact I am happy to do it. I mean come on, my range has steel every 100 yards to a mile, why not live a little and shoot the stuff past 1000 just as much as I shoot the stuff in front of 1000.
 

Lowlight

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#14
I haven't seen an excuse... I have it to try, if it's not gonna yield the desired effect, I will toss it to the side, but I am gonna try it first. that is the biggest clue.

End of the day, you have no idea about 4166 just like everyone else LOL No hints were forthcoming in this discussion, only what should not be done, but then again, that is why I use 2000MR for stuff like heavy 308s and reach my desired goals.. I don't enter these things thinking I can't only, will it or won't it, and that is based on actually shoot it and not talking about it

I know, if 3 Bears doesn't have it, you default to what they do, nobody want to ship to the Russian border.
 
Sep 27, 2008
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#15
Damn, I wish you were asking about 4166 in the 338 / 06. I just got finished working up a great load using a 200 grain Nosler E Tip. Getting 2740 FPS. Shoots MOA in a sporter. Fucker kicks though W/O a brake. There was NO loading data for this, I was in uncharted territory. I can still see and type. ;)
 

vh20

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#16
Well, it didn't take him long. I wonder how long before he gets banned for the 4th(?) time? I also wonder if he knows who the real "Old Reliable" is?
 
Apr 18, 2014
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#18
Frank, I admit I've missed reading some of Larry's posts. There were times they were comical to me and entertaining, but I gotta ask why you seem to engage him but guys like Philip were so often dismissed the second they said IOR and Schott glass
 

AIAW

General Fingerbang
Aug 16, 2001
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#24
41.5 of 4166
43 of Varget
44 of H4350

Varget load was 3.8 mils to 800 yards
the slower H4350 was 4.4 mils and low so 4.6 maybe

time to load em up and gonna use the 4166
Damn, QL was way off (granted it was all just "standard" data I put in) or you ended up using the 26" barrel instead.
 

Lowlight

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#27
LabRadar SD on the 4166 was 6.5fps at 3104fps ... you know that speed I was talking about along with the SD you tried preaching ...

17342643_1378167185540134_3565917386084238574_n.jpg?oh=ec5050f5070a1a155b77816218d0b32d&oe=595...jpg

My BC is in Star Wars territory

Me vs Larry Lunch Meat

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/PLV-Vpy1gqQ" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
 

Lowlight

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#30
I should be done with everything come Wednesday next week then I can announce it all ... video, details. etc...

Now to load up 41.5gr of that too fast 4166 at 2.820" ... then take them to ask at the range out as far as the conditions will let me.
 

Lowlight

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#31
Too many powders, so little time, next round we can try 15, I may have some in the Connex if I remember right, I know I have 17

At least I eliminated H4350 as a viable solution. Really, Varget is plenty, 43gr at 3150fps with an SD of 8, I need to play with seating depth as the accuracy was the worst of the bunch.

But out of the gate, the 4166 was on, and I loaded the least of them up. 3100 is plenty fast and it was sub 1/2" out of the gate.

Solids, but the nice the thing, you can mix these with jacketed, POI was super close to the Prime 130s as I used them to zero maybe a click off.

Tuesday is looking good to take them out, plan on hitting a Mile with them
 

AIAW

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Aug 16, 2001
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#32
I am supersonic to 2100 yards with this load and if I use the Varget numbers I am supersonic to 2150...

For the Slow out there, that is Two Thousand One Hundred Yards... your mileage may vary.

Crom Laughs at your measly 1550
2100 yards - that's just freakin nasty for that magic pill.

I just noticed that I preemptively used a 20" barrel instead of your 22.75" in the screenshot QL data - the numbers are much closer when I use 22.75".

Maybe gain-twist there also?
 
Last edited:
Feb 10, 2012
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#36
A ~120gr that is still super sonic at 2100 yards with a muzzle velocity of just 3100 fps??? It would need a bc that rivals 140gr class bullets. Looking forward to seeing this.
 

MarinePMI

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#37
A ~120gr that is still super sonic at 2100 yards with a muzzle velocity of just 3100 fps??? It would need a bc that rivals 140gr class bullets. Looking forward to seeing this.
If it's a solid, than yes, that'd make sense (since solids are very long for their weight). Given the 6.5mm bullets already having a fairly high BC, a 120 solid could conceivably have a BC near that of a traditional 140gr 6.5mm bullet. Very interesting, if that is the case...
 
Feb 24, 2017
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#44
Frank, I know you haven't mentioned it, but when I was looking for speed with 120 class bullets, I turned to RL17 (Reloader Swiss 60), and it worked well.
I got 3060fps with a 123gr Scenar, out of 23" barrel, using exactly 45gr of RL17.
With a COAL of 2.83 (almost touching with my standard chamber) ES and SD were both low single figures.

Contrary to a lot of internet comments, I haven't seen a lot of temp sensitivity with RS60, and have seen convincing stability data from the manufacturer.
 

Lowlight

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#45
There are a lot of choice, originally the plan was to use Varget, and I had some H4350, then Mile High gave me some 4166 to try as it is advertised for 6.5CM..

I could have tried a host of powder, I have RL-17 for sure, and probably some 15 too... but when testing bullets I only have limited resources to work with. I cannot mix and match. We know Varget was working and that should have been it, but I wanted to see what H4350 would do as that is a go to 6.5 load for a lot of people.

We have a ton of choices which is great
 

BearNaked

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#46
Just curious to your load development process. It obviously works and if I can spend less time tuning and more time getting dope then it's a win.

Are you using .5 grain jumps until you hit your speed then adjusting seating depth for your es/sd numbers?


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Foul Mike

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Apr 18, 2001
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#48
Watching this close. We all have to as the powder sources dry up as well as the bullets we like to use. 6.5mm sure seems popular and if you look around to replenish what you know to be good, powder is not there to be had nor the bullets.
We need something new that is available. FM
 

BearNaked

Beer Saved The World
Feb 13, 2017
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#49
Here is a Hint -

4166 - Average MV 3098 / SD 8.0 D'oh!
Varget - Average MV 3142 / SD 8.8
H4350 - Average MV 2918 / SD 8.0

guess i I got what I was looking for lol

stick to the wilds of AK Old Reliable
If you are getting that in a 6.5 creed then I wonder what my 260 will get with it plus a longer barrel. Nice find on powder frank.


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5RWill

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#50
While i can't comment on 6.5CM i've been using it with my 6.5x47 and am well past what Hodgon recommends max. Least to me it's well past. I'm going to work my way up a little more see i get pressure signs but max is supposedly 36gr. I shot groups this past weekend at 36.5 and 37gr with no perceivable pressure signs. So far i like it as a viable substitute to varget.