Well, this is going to be a fun project....

sirhrmechanic

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As I was helping Son of Darth out with his African rifle build and ran across this little unfinished gem... At $600 plus change, I doubt I could have barreled the action for that.

It's on what I think is a Brazilian ERA Mauser 98-style action. That is what it was sold as. But I can't find out much about those actions... whether they were made with hacksaws and toes like in Darra? Or whether they are creditable.

1565543290619.png

1565543497227.png

But I could not even barrel it with the McGowan barrel for what I paid for the whole project.

Of course, the fun begins with loading for it... 5.99 each for brass. $400 for a die set. Punishing recoil. And there aren't any Tyrannasaurs up here to shoot with it. But the journey will be the reward.


Cheers,

Sirhr
 

Son of Dorn

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I'm looking forward to seeing how this one turns out, Sirhr. As for blasting T-rexes back to the Cretaceous with that thing, I hear there's this lovely little island off Costa Rica...
 
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Dan M

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Not a Brazilian Mauser. Three possibilities here ...1) A Honduran Model of 1934 contract rifle with the receiver ring and bridge milled down...they were manufactured by Remington. They were manufactured from nickel steel and are fine from a materials standpoint. 2) Remington Model 30 sporter action...same comments as above. 3) M1917 or Pattern ‘14...could be done but far more work to get it to sporter configuration.
 

sirhrmechanic

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Thanks, DanM. Another possibility is ERA, a Brazilian make of fairly cheap modern guns... Possible they made 98 modern clone actions.

I can't find anything about it... the listing said ERA Model 98 action.

All I get from Google is a bunch of random crap. Including a mess about feminists and their Constitutional crap-out!

So any info you might scare up would be massively helpful!

Cheers,

Sirhr
 

Dan M

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The Pattern ‘14/Model of 1917 safety is the give away. Brazil did make domestic ‘98 pattern mauser rifles and they also purchased contract mauser rifles from DWM and Mauser Oberndorf...the rear of the receiver ring at the ejection port is straight. The receiver at the ejection port is curved...that is a Pattern ‘14/M1917/Rem 30/Honduran 1934 feature.

If I had to bet the ranch, I would say the information provided by the seller is incorrect. ERA was the code for the Eddystone Plant of Remington Arms. It could be an ERA Pattern ‘14 receiver or someone assumed it is an ERA receiver.
 

Son of Dorn

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@Dan M https://www.gunbroker.com/item/825072438 Here was the original listing (more pics). Looking at it, here's what I figure. If it was a straight clone of the Mauser 98, why have the Enfield-style safety on it? It's definitely an Enfield-type receiver and safety, the trigger guard looks like the military P14/M1917 ones and not the Remington 30 that I've seen, and if ERA was the Eddystone plant, then I'd say this is a sporterized M1917. Except for one problem: The Eddystone sporters I just looked at, none of them just have ERA and a serial # on them in that same location. Wasn't an exhaustive search, of course, but they all have the full rollmark and not just "ERA"
 

sirhrmechanic

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Well that is making me feel better!! Because the Brazilian maker ERA is a maker of kind of POS stuff. If it's a sporterized military, whether Rem, Eddystone, etc... is very, very good news!

I honestly don't know the details of the Mausers like you guys do. So this is excellent feedback. Thanks, too, Dorn!

Cheers,

Sirhr
 
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lash

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As I was helping Son of Darth out with his African rifle build and ran across this little unfinished gem... At $600 plus change, I doubt I could have barreled the action for that.

It's on what I think is a Brazilian ERA Mauser 98-style action. That is what it was sold as. But I can't find out much about those actions... whether they were made with hacksaws and toes like in Darra? Or whether they are creditable.

View attachment 7128040

View attachment 7128041

But I could not even barrel it with the McGowan barrel for what I paid for the whole project.

Of course, the fun begins with loading for it... 5.99 each for brass. $400 for a die set. Punishing recoil. And there aren't any Tyrannasaurs up here to shoot with it. But the journey will be the reward.


Cheers,

Sirhr
Nice project rifle! Great for popping varmints all day long. :p:ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:
 

Dan M

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@Dan M https://www.gunbroker.com/item/825072438 Here was the original listing (more pics). Looking at it, here's what I figure. If it was a straight clone of the Mauser 98, why have the Enfield-style safety on it? It's definitely an Enfield-type receiver and safety, the trigger guard looks like the military P14/M1917 ones and not the Remington 30 that I've seen, and if ERA was the Eddystone plant, then I'd say this is a sporterized M1917. Except for one problem: The Eddystone sporters I just looked at, none of them just have ERA and a serial # on them in that same location. Wasn't an exhaustive search, of course, but they all have the full rollmark and not just "ERA"
A M1917 is marked Eddystone...a Pattern ‘14 is ONLY marked ERA. i have two in original as issued E8F4D705-35AC-4386-82E3-77E5EFFC58BE.jpegcondition, one in the 6000 range and the other in the 10,000 range.
 

Son of Dorn

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sirhrmechanic

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A 'technical' question for you guys, is whether to fit a recoil lug through the stock. They not only do the Mauser-style recoil-lugs look good... but I think with the energy generated by the .470... even with bedding, the stock should probably have every bit of support it can get!

BTW, to put the Capstick into perspective... the .458 puts a 500gr slug out at 2000 fps. The Capstick is 300 fps Higher... it is beyond cannon!

1565554892612.png

.470 Capstick, .458 WinMag. .577/.450 Martini and .375 H&H Mag.

Cheers,

Sirhr
 
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Dan M

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The old A-Square Hannibal rifles had recoil bolts through the stock. With the 470 Capstick’s recoil it should help mitigate stock splitting.
 

isofahunter

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Nice find Sirhr. The bolt is not a necessity if the stock is made right, but without knowing who did the inleting might be a good idea. My fathers 458 traveled the world and killed all sorts of stuff without issue but Al Biesen did the work on it. Shooting BIG BORE is fun but must be done in small increments, at least that is my opinion. Keep us posted.
 

Son of Dorn

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A 'technical' question for you guys, is whether to fit a recoil lug through the stock. They not only do the Mauser-style recoil-lugs look good... but I think with the energy generated by the .470... even with bedding, the stock should probably have every bit of support it can get!

BTW, to put the Capstick into perspective... the .458 puts a 500gr slug out at 2000 fps. The Capstick is 300 fps Higher... it is beyond cannon!

View attachment 7128193

.470 Capstick, .458 WinMag. .577/.450 Martini and .375 H&H Mag.

Cheers,

Sirhr
Even if you don't need the recoil bolt, it couldn't really hurt to have one, could it? Plus I happen to think they look good, at least I think they do on my milsurp Mausers and '03A3 sporter.

And come to think of it, that .470 does look kinda like a chapstick tube, doesn't it?
 
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sirhrmechanic

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I have several big-bores.... and have taken some big things with them. This one is kind of a gun I bought on a lark because I see the potential in it. Someone sympathetic needs to finish it. I suggested it would be ideal for Dorn, but he headed in another direction. So I'll finish it for posterity!

1565556759939.png

1565556853557.png

.416 Taylor on a Mauser...

Can't find the one of me with moose and .458....

Cheers,

Sirhr
 

Son of Dorn

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@sirhrmechanic And like I said, I'm excited to see how this one finishes up for you, especially now we've established it's a venerable breed and not a POS! Best of luck with it! :)
 

sandwarrior

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I'm late to the party, but it was easily id'd as a Rem/Eddystone by the safety. Then as DanM noted, the ERA over serial number made it clear it was a P14 over a M1917/Rem model 30
 
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pmclaine

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If its an Eddystone 1917 be very careful examining the front ring.

Recent post on CMP or Jouster indicated the Eddystones were prone to cracking when removing the factory installed barrel.


Im in agreement not a Mauser. Some version of P14 design.

So to be the turd in the punchbowl but if you are going big bore be very sure that front ring is safe.

@cplnorton discovered the documents concerning this basically reversing conventional wisdom - low number 03s are now thought to be safe and M1917s may be the unsafe firearm.
 

pmclaine

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and.....if you are looking for a great builder @Raven 6 runs Raven Rifles and he does some mighty fine rifle making.

Think he has spots ready to go right now.

Im thinking of him as I sit here at the gate to Fort Devens South Post, just beside to 75mm rifles I will be posting pictures of in the "Cool Things" thread later.

In the back of the family Pilot is my most favorite, most accurate rifle, my "Billy Baroo", an M40/A1/A3/A5ish built by Mark that is an absolute lazer. Only think it lacks is being attached to a shark.
 

Son of Dorn

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If its an Eddystone 1917 be very careful examining the front ring.

Recent post on CMP or Jouster indicated the Eddystones were prone to cracking when removing the factory installed barrel.


Im in agreement not a Mauser. Some version of P14 design.

So to be the turd in the punchbowl but if you are going big bore be very sure that front ring is safe.

@cplnorton discovered the documents concerning this basically reversing conventional wisdom - low number 03s are now thought to be safe and M1917s may be the unsafe firearm.
The documents in your link only mention the Eddystones; is there any reason to think that the Winchester/Remington ones would have similar issues?
 

sandwarrior

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The Eddystones were prone to cracking as they were put on tight and gunsmiths did nothing to alleviate that. Rem 700’s have been known to have the same problem of barrels on too tight. That is why it’s standard practice on them to make a relief cut before spinning the barrel off.

As to the 1903’s nothing has changed. They found the problem way back when. It was due to judging the temp by color of metal while heating, instead of thermometer. The problem was they modernized the lighting which made it harder to see. It was after that both Springfield and Rock Island started monitoring temps by instrument instead of color.

NO, it is not safe to assume the issue was BS. It was a KNOWN issue. And, it got a known fix. It was not determined until way later that the serial number ranges should not be shot with full power loads, if shot at all. Most if not all are perfectly good. But, they cannot guarantee that. You shoot them at your own risk.
 
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Dan M

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Eddystone receivers were the receivers most mentioned in DCM documents...Winchester and Remington receivers cracked as well but there were fewer reports of that occurrence with those contractors products. Seen in receivers rebarreled for the Second World War. Apparently pneudraulic tools were used to install barrels.
 

Son of Dorn

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Eddystone receivers were the receivers most mentioned in DCM documents...Winchester and Remington receivers cracked as well but there were fewer reports of that occurrence with those contractors products. Seen in receivers rebarreled for the Second World War. Apparently pneudraulic tools were used to install barrels.
Why were the Eddystones most mentioned? Did they just happen to have the worst quality control of the three, or worse machinery/metal, or was it the rebarrel process that did them in?
 

Dan M

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Rebarrelling process. Far more Eddystones were produced than the other two contractors output... larger sample size. Actually, Eddystone M1917s were the preferred rifles sent overseas with the AEF. Winchesters were prohibited from being sent overseas until later in the war due to a failure in parts interchangeability... they required depot level maintenance that could not be accomplished by armorers in the AO. Winchester started production PRIOR to the drawings (aka TDP) being finalized. In case anyone is wondering what the star in a circle found on the receiver rail of a Winchester M1917 signifies, that rifle was produced during the period when they were prohibited from deploying overseas... they required hand fitted parts, a no go for deployment.
 

Son of Dorn

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I wondered if it might have to do with sample/production sizes, too. So if I was going to do something similar to sirhr and redo a M1917 to an H&H magnum, I'd still want to check it over and be careful with the rebarrel even if it was a Winchester or a Remington and not an Eddystone, yes?
 

acudaowner

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looks great , good luck and may it turn out the way you want it to .
 

sandwarrior

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The cracking was happening when they were pulling the barrels off. Not during firing like the 1903's. The P14's/M1917's were all made with instrument monitored steel processes. Not color checked.

I love how myths get started.
 
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Son of Dorn

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Correct. Find an action with a shot out original barrel...make a relief cut and the barrel comes off without issue.
Same thing for a pre-sporterized one, or would I run a higher risk of getting a buggered receiver with that?
 

pmclaine

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As to the 1903’s nothing has changed. They found the problem way back when. It was due to judging the temp by color of metal while heating, instead of thermometer. The problem was they modernized the lighting which made it harder to see. It was after that both Springfield and Rock Island started monitoring temps by instrument instead of color.

NO, it is not safe to assume the issue was BS. It was a KNOWN issue. And, it got a known fix. It was not determined until way later that the serial number ranges should not be shot with full power loads, if shot at all. Most if not all are perfectly good. But, they cannot guarantee that. You shoot them at your own risk.
Springfield felt differently circa 1944.......

 

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Back in the Mid 70s I was concerned I might get an invite to go hunting in Africa and would have to turn it down because I didnt have a rifle. I read about Carmichael building a 416 Rigby on the 1917 action. A friend of mine heard me talking about it and gave me a Remington m1917 action so I built the 416. Two light, kicks like mule.

I bought (from Sarco) a firing pin assembly that allows the rifle to cock on openning.
I'm still waiting for the invite, so I hung onto the rifle. But being a wimp, I shoot cast bullets pushed by Trailboss to about 1600 FPS but fairly accurate at 100 yards.

I put a brake on my 375 H&H M-70 and its a pleasure to shoot. So I decided to try a clamp on brake on the M1917 Rigby. Not sure how thats gonna work out. Only got one shot off, Ill try it again if I ever find my brake which is somewhere out in the back pasture.

Or maybe I'll thread the barrel and put on a real brake.
 

ZG47A

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My recollection (too late at night here, to check my books) is that most, if not all, of the 1903 receiver failures involved the use of WW1 ammunition produced by inexperienced manufacturers.
 
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sandwarrior

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Springfield felt differently circa 1944.......

That's a CYA and unknowing document. Testing random lots does not identify the few affected receivers across that large of a test sample.

The problem is that the vast number of low serial number actions are safe because the people doing the forging were able to tell when to stop heating them. However, some people couldn't tell that and the actions got heated too high. It was not immediately known and no one kept track of who did the heating, by name. Remember, up until they installed pyrometers, the forging temperature was determined by color of the metal. (assuming you are familiar with the color spectrum of heated steel) When the pyrometers were installed it gave a consistent temperature to heat them up to.

In a nutshell, the problem is not being able to identify which of the small number of receivers were improperly forged/heat treated out of those two large groups.

I believe we have the technology* at this point to see which receivers are good on an individual basis, but it's expensive to do those tests on each one. Until you have a "known, good quality low serial number 1903" it is suggested you not shoot high pressure loads through it. Or, not shoot it at all. The last time I looked, there were some 29 accidents involving injury with them, some of which resulted in death.

The reasons are known, and until we know otherwise, it would behoove the shooter to beware. And, if possible, pick a higher number receiver.

*based on what I do with metalurgy in aviation.
 
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pmclaine

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That's a CYA and unknowing document. Testing random lots does not identify the few affected receivers across that large of a test sample.

The problem is that the vast number of low serial number actions are safe because the people doing the forging were able to tell when to stop heating them. However, some people couldn't tell that and the actions got heated too high. It was not immediately known and no one kept track of who did the heating, by name. Remember, up until they installed pyrometers, the forging temperature was determined by color of the metal. (assuming you are familiar with the color spectrum of heated steel) When the pyrometers were installed it gave a consistent temperature to heat them up to.

In a nutshell, the problem is not being able to identify which of the small number of receivers were improperly forged/heat treated out of those two large groups.

I believe we have the technology* at this point to see which receivers are good on an individual basis, but it's expensive to do those tests on each one. Until you have a "known, good quality low serial number 1903" it is suggested you not shoot high pressure loads through it. Or, not shoot it at all. The last time I looked, there were some 29 accidents involving injury with them, some of which resulted in death.

The reasons are known, and until we know otherwise, it would behoove the shooter to beware. And, if possible, pick a higher number receiver.

*based on what I do with metalurgy in aviation.

Military Industrial Complex is nothing new.

Smedley Butler warned us about it before Ike.

The Armories needed something to do during the lean years, this made it happen.

Each should make his own decision.

Marines didnt get that choice and they put low numbers through a lot of war without suffering bad results to further indicate there was a problem.

More evidence seems to indicate ammo than receiver.

29 "accidents" over some million rifles......Im betting the Garand "accident" rate was higher.
 

sandwarrior

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Garand accidents only involved loss of thumbs...lol Yeah they had some accidents. IH had hardening problems and were pulled off line and their contract terminated. That was even late in the Korean war! (might have something to do with it) But, they sure are collectible!! :rolleyes:

As to the ammunition a lot of that 'bad' ammunition was run through post-800,000/285,000 1903's and DIDN'T blow up. And, no I don't believe it was faulty ammo. Nor do I believe that accidents were only because match shooters were lubing their bullets. They'd have known right away if the pressures were getting high because of it.

And, the accidents span across the service branches.

You can make arguments all day, but the facts remain that the pyrometer heated actions don't have the issues the color heated (low ser.#) actions have had. If you choose to do it, that's on you. If the myths get pushed to the point someone goes out and shoots one and blows his face off, because he got a bad one, then what? Is that not on the people who push that they are okay?
 
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pmclaine

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I dont push shooting the low numbers or not shooting the low numbers.

If I came across a low number I wanted Im inclined to fire it.

My reasoning.....

Touching off a load of any propellant in any device a mere 6 inches from your eyeball has inherent risks.

Any worker could have had a bad day, any forging could have had an inclusion, any reloaded round i make could have been "the one".

The low numbers were never taken out of service.

With the quantity built, the hard use they were subject too, the frequency of failures Im not convinced the risk is that much greater than that already posed in my points above as well as the fact these guns are all approaching 100 years of age.

The potential risk posed by the low number only slightly increases it.

How much testing has been done on milsurps from some second tier manufacturing, or war production expedient countries?

Was the war factory production from the Soviet Union circa 1942 that much better than Springfield?
 

pmclaine

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Garand accidents only involved loss of thumbs...lol Yeah they had some accidents. IH had hardening problems and were pulled off line and their contract terminated. That was even late in the Korean war! (might have something to do with it) But, they sure are collectible!! :rolleyes:

As to the ammunition a lot of that 'bad' ammunition was run through post-800,000/285,000 1903's and DIDN'T blow up. And, no I don't believe it was faulty ammo. Nor do I believe that accidents were only because match shooters were lubing their bullets. They'd have known right away if the pressures were getting high because of it.

And, the accidents span across the service branches.

You can make arguments all day, but the facts remain that the pyrometer heated actions don't have the issues the color heated (low ser.#) actions have had. If you choose to do it, that's on you. If the myths get pushed to the point someone goes out and shoots one and blows his face off, because he got a bad one, then what? Is that not on the people who push that they are okay?

Interesting about the Garand they did have hardening issues and rather than scrap a million rifles that were desperately needed to fight the war the solution was to reharden.

So that two tone lead dipped heel on early Garands is a mark of a substandard rifle that had to have brittlness removed in order to prevent the heel cracking loose when firing a grenade round.

Interesting how time and place can determine policy.