Well Alabama went and did it....

MK20

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My opinion on the topic of abortion is not germane to this discussion. You have no clue what I believe or don't believe.

My only point in this thread is the law that they passed in Alabama will go nowhere as it UNCONSTITUTIONAL.
Could you please point out to me the Article and paragraph in the Constitution where it says it is ok to murder your child? Any reference to abortion? No? Any section stating that the govt shall make no law prohibiting abortion or the free exercise thereof? Well, I guess by your standard the Supreme Court can just decide on their own with no legal basis what is Unconstitutional. Have fun with your gun rights.
In the colonies it was illegal to kill your child after what they termed “the quickening” which meant when you first felt the baby move and knew that you had something alive in you.
Abortion was sometimes a capital crime for all involved.
BTW, the Constitution itself dates its signing to the Declaration of Independence, thus recognizing the preeminence of that document. What about the unalienable right to life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness?
Also, the Constitution says “in order to secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and to our posterity...” posterity means children, both present, and to come.

Before you start calling something Unconstitutional, maybe you should go reread the document so you have an idea what you are talking about.
 

Scarface26

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Serious question gents: Can any one please recommend a book or reading list on the State's rights issue?

For give me, but I'm fuzzy about the issue re our own Civil War - if it was about a State's "right" to say some people could own others, how do you reconcile that with our Declaration? If it was about tariffs that the southern states had to pay why didn't they just NOT PAY? Why attack Ft. Sumter, and secede?

Please don't derail the thread with my post, but I really feel like if I'm going to be a good citizen I need to have at least read the homework. Thanks in advance.

God bless America
 

MK20

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@Scarface26

Simple reading.
Go find a copy of the Constitution of the Confederacy. It makes it absolutely clear that it was about slavery and not states rights.
It clearly forbids any state in the Confederacy from outlawing slavery. If it was about “states’ rights” why would they specifically take away a State’s right to pass their laws as they want?
It was about slavery.
 

Maggot

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@Scarface26

Simple reading.
Go find a copy of the Constitution of the Confederacy. It makes it absolutely clear that it was about slavery and not states rights.
It clearly forbids any state in the Confederacy from outlawing slavery. If it was about “states’ rights” why would they specifically take away a State’s right to pass their laws as they want?
It was about slavery.
End of discussion.
 
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Scarface26

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@Scarface26

Simple reading.
Go find a copy of the Constitution of the Confederacy. It makes it absolutely clear that it was about slavery and not states rights.
It clearly forbids any state in the Confederacy from outlawing slavery. If it was about “states’ rights” why would they specifically take away a State’s right to pass their laws as they want?
It was about slavery.
OK. Thanks for the education. Obviously hadn't read the confederate constitution, but I'm not surprised.

No surprises here either, but regarding the abortion issue, I believe that SCOTUS was way out of line with RVW, that RVW is in NO way compatible with either our Constitution or Declaration. I keep mentioning the Declaration because if the garbage we do is worse than what King George did to our ancestors then haven't we negated the whole purpose of our Independence? Doesn't that make us unworthy of our ancestors' sacrifice?

Point to ponder: I submit that a citizen and a State not only has a right, but a DUTY, to oppose any "law" repugnant to the Constitution, which a woman's supposed "right" to kill her children in utero is - repugnant to the Constitution.

God bless America
 
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Crang

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@Scarface26

Simple reading.
Go find a copy of the Constitution of the Confederacy. It makes it absolutely clear that it was about slavery and not states rights.
It clearly forbids any state in the Confederacy from outlawing slavery. If it was about “states’ rights” why would they specifically take away a State’s right to pass their laws as they want?
It was about slavery.
For the same reason if we had a Civil War today against the communists as our entire way of life is under attack, we would strength the laws in certain areas in which the SJWs had found ways around. I.E. the Second Amendment not only would say- not infringed- but forbid all future government from making any laws limiting it. Does that mean such a Civil War would be about gun control? Not really although that would certainly be one of a whole host of issues. Simplifying it down to a single issue really does a disservice to what actually happened. For many it actually was about states rights vs federal power. For many it was that an entire way of life was under attack- politically, economically, socially, punitive taxes, etc.. Sound familiar? Does the 1st Amendment, which forbids Congress from passing a law which violates free speech, take away from States Rights? Not at all. Its most unfortunate the Confederacy was on the very wrong side of the slave issue as history, written by the victor, uses that to cloud over what they were right on.

For instance- NC had previously had a convention and voted internally not to secede. Their economy was tobacco not cotton, and not heavily reliant on slave labor. Then Lincoln called them up and ordered them to put 75K NC men on the line to invade their southern neighbors. They then had a 2nd convention and this time voted to split from the Union. They ended up contributing 20% of the troops of the Confederacy. If you asked them if it was about slavery at the time most would have said no. It was an overreach of federal power. If Obama, who had been attacking your way of life in general (but you agreed with on one single issue), had ordered the men in your state to invade your neighbor state, who would you fight? Is the war about the one issue you agreed with him on?
 
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Maggot

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For the same reason if we had a Civil War today against the communists as our entire way of life is under attack, we would strength the laws in certain areas in which the SJWs had found ways around. I.E. the Second Amendment not only would say- not infringed- but forbid all future government from making any laws limiting it. Does that mean such a Civil War would be about gun control? Not really although that would certainly be one of a whole host of issues. Simplifying it down to a single issue really does a disservice to what actually happened. For many it actually was about states rights vs federal power. For many it was that an entire way of life was under attack- politically, economically, socially, punitive taxes, etc.. Sound familiar? Does the 1st Amendment, which forbids Congress from passing a law which violates free speech, take away from States Rights? Not at all. Its most unfortunate the Confederacy was on the very wrong side of the slave issue as history, written by the victor, uses that to cloud over what they were right on.

For instance- NC had previously had a convention and voted internally not to secede. Their economy was tobacco not cotton, and not heavily reliant on slave labor. Then Lincoln called them up and ordered them to put 75K NC men on the line to invade their southern neighbors. They then had a 2nd convention and this time voted to split from the Union. They ended up contributing 20% of the troops of the Confederacy. If you asked them if it was about slavery at the time most would have said no. It was an overreach of federal power. If Obama, who had been attacking your way of life in general (but you agreed with on one single issue), had ordered the men in your state to invade your neighbor state, who would you fight? Is the war about the one issue you agreed with him on?
Interesting, I hadnt known about the NC situation.
 
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ArmyJerry

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skip the confederate constitution, Read the US Consitution, its easy reading really,,, only people trying to abridge make it a tourtured read. You wont find the justice department in there,, you wont find the Scotus in there, they are a unconstitutional creation of Congress . Read the 10th amendment, the fed gov has very little to do, an d 99% of the shit they do do is unconstitutional as its not a prescribed power under the constitution.

You dont have to submit anything, its in the Constitution and our founding documents... buy more ammo and AR's , and a 50 cal or two with AP ammo.


OK. Thanks for the education. Obviously hadn't read the confederate constitution, but I'm not surprised.

No surprises here either, but regarding the abortion issue, I believe that SCOTUS was way out of line with RVW, that RVW is in NO way compatible with either our Constitution or Declaration. I keep mentioning the Declaration because if the garbage we do is worse than what King George did to our ancestors then haven't we negated the whole purpose of our Independence? Doesn't that make us unworthy of our ancestors' sacrifice?

Point to ponder: I submit that a citizen and a State not only has a right, but a DUTY, to oppose any "law" repugnant to the Constitution, which a woman's supposed "right" to kill her children in utero is - repugnant to the Constitution.

God bless America
 
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ArmyJerry

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it wouldnet be a civil war like you have in mind. you enemies and the enemies are using unconstitutional law to destroy this country and people like us. Its not a tax or a money thing is an absolute power and enslavement thing.. States have the right to leave the union, States also hav the right and tools to tell fed gov to fuck the hell off. And Alabama did just that...

Ironically the path was cleared with that ruling about gay marriage in Kentucky, no business of fed gov and the scotus got involved, now states are saying fuck you, they jumped the shark... get ready for bloody revolution and a violent coming apart, the powers that be cant have their slaves giving them the finger... buy more ammo Ar;s and a 50 or two with AP. Trust no one in government, not even relatives.

For the same reason if we had a Civil War today against the communists as our entire way of life is under attack, we would strength the laws in certain areas in which the SJWs had found ways around. I.E. the Second Amendment not only would say- not infringed- but forbid all future government from making any laws limiting it. Does that mean such a Civil War would be about gun control? Not really although that would certainly be one of a whole host of issues. Simplifying it down to a single issue really does a disservice to what actually happened. For many it actually was about states rights vs federal power. For many it was that an entire way of life was under attack- politically, economically, socially, punitive taxes, etc.. Sound familiar? Does the 1st Amendment, which forbids Congress from passing a law which violates free speech, take away from States Rights? Not at all. Its most unfortunate the Confederacy was on the very wrong side of the slave issue as history, written by the victor, uses that to cloud over what they were right on.

For instance- NC had previously had a convention and voted internally not to secede. Their economy was tobacco not cotton, and not heavily reliant on slave labor. Then Lincoln called them up and ordered them to put 75K NC men on the line to invade their southern neighbors. They then had a 2nd convention and this time voted to split from the Union. They ended up contributing 20% of the troops of the Confederacy. If you asked them if it was about slavery at the time most would have said no. It was an overreach of federal power. If Obama, who had been attacking your way of life in general (but you agreed with on one single issue), had ordered the men in your state to invade your neighbor state, who would you fight? Is the war about the one issue you agreed with him on?
 

SilentStalkr

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Some good news for you. There is a bill about to be passed in AL that will allow you to have a lifetime cc recognized in a number of places, for life! And it will only cost you $100.
 

MK20

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You know what's even better? Your state just recognizing the 2nd amendment and letting you carry without a permit.
Refer to the book "That Every Man be Armed" to see the history of concealed carry permits. They were largely begun as a means to deny black folks the ability to be armed in the South post Civil War.
 

Gunfighter14e2

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You know what's even better? Your state just recognizing the 2nd amendment and letting you carry without a permit.
Refer to the book "That Every Man be Armed" to see the history of concealed carry permits. They were largely begun as a means to deny black folks the ability to be armed in the South post Civil War.
You know whats better than that? People waking up to the lies that are repeated in History books, as well as other B/S printed material/links that try to keep the lies alive.
Northern aggression is the correct title, but some people play on the weak minded. JWB should have been given a medal for killing old lying Abe. Money always follow the money an play the weak minded sheep like a fiddle.
 
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MK20

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I would like to add that the book quotes heavily from original sources, and has 50 ish pages of footnotes.
 

Nik H

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You know what's even better? Your state just recognizing the 2nd amendment and letting you carry without a permit.
Refer to the book "That Every Man be Armed" to see the history of concealed carry permits. They were largely begun as a means to deny black folks the ability to be armed in the South post Civil War.
That is one of the best books on the subject that I have read. Everyone that owns a firearm should read it.
 
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armorpl8chikn

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That's right. You Yankees Pat yourselves on the back. Your sole intent was to free people.
Just like when we fought the Nazis to save the Jews.
 

gnochi

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Banning abortions won’t stop abortions, just like banning guns won’t stop criminals from getting guns and banning drugs doesn’t stop anyone from getting drugs. Daughters and mistresses of people with means will always “go on vacation” and not bring a kid back.

What banning abortions will do is increase the numbers of poor children, especially minorities, who - guess what - grow up to vote almost entirely Democrat. What introducing a bill to ban abortions does is give Democrats more ammunition to say the only people Republicans care about are old rich white men, and people are receptive to that argument regardless of how true it is.

Why the fuck would you introduce a bill that immediately pushes people to vote Democrat, and in the future will increase the numbers of people voting Democrat, when we are on the hairy edge of having our RKBA voted away by people voting Democrat??? Remember that a constitutional amendment only takes a supermajority and 3/4 of the states, and 1/10 of the nation’s population is in California. States are turning blue fast AF.

If you really want to prevent abortions, get off your high horse and let teenagers be taught about safer sex (which is strongly correlated with teenagers waiting longer and having fewer partners). Greatly increase access to contraception, and make it so parents don’t need to give permission to let their teenage daughters be on birth control. It protects the person working their way through the football team, but it also protects the person who’s raped, or who’s partner stealths or pinholes. You don’t always have a choice about sex. I think compassion for the girl is much more important than protecting a bundle of cells that only has a 50% chance of viability anyway.

How would you like to see a reminder every day for years on end that you weren’t able to protect your daughter from being raped?

Edit: so it’s clear, the “vote Democrat” bit above - I’m leaving the post before “Edit:” untouched - is an apparently soulless “if y’all would keep your mouths shut and hands to yourselves, you wouldn’t be giving people the numbers to revoke the second amendment.”
 
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ArmyJerry

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Dam man, you sound like a baby killing Democrat.

To most , a black baby is a baby just like a white or Asian baby, do you sleep well having these thoughts of racial eugenics. You make Margaret Sanger and Hilary proud.

Just to correct one other thing, its not a bill , it is a law now, the gov of Alabama signed it.

Banning abortions won’t stop abortions, just like banning guns won’t stop criminals from getting guns and banning drugs doesn’t stop anyone from getting drugs. Daughters and mistresses of people with means will always “go on vacation” and not bring a kid back.

What banning abortions will do is increase the numbers of poor children, especially minorities, who - guess what - grow up to vote almost entirely Democrat. What introducing a bill to ban abortions does is give Democrats more ammunition to say the only people Republicans care about are old rich white men, and people are receptive to that argument regardless of how true it is.

Why the fuck would you introduce a bill that immediately pushes people to vote Democrat, and in the future will increase the numbers of people voting Democrat, when we are on the hairy edge of having our RKBA voted away by people voting Democrat??? Remember that a constitutional amendment only takes a supermajority and 3/4 of the states, and 1/10 of the nation’s population is in California. States are turning blue fast AF.

If you really want to prevent abortions, get off your high horse and let teenagers be taught about safer sex (which is strongly correlated with teenagers waiting longer and having fewer partners). Greatly increase access to contraception, and make it so parents don’t need to give permission to let their teenage daughters be on birth control. It protects the person working their way through the football team, but it also protects the person who’s raped, or who’s partner stealths or pinholes. You don’t always have a choice about sex. I think compassion for the girl is much more important than protecting a bundle of cells that only has a 50% chance of viability anyway.

How would you like to see a reminder every day for years on end that you weren’t able to protect your daughter from being raped?
 

gnochi

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I see no reason to bring a child into this world who’s neither going to be loved nor going to be supported by a full family in all of their needs growing up. I’d rather send that child’s soul, whenever it’s created, straight to God.
 

ArmyJerry

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Just joined here May 6, I am thinking troll.

Banning abortions won’t stop abortions, just like banning guns won’t stop criminals from getting guns and banning drugs doesn’t stop anyone from getting drugs. Daughters and mistresses of people with means will always “go on vacation” and not bring a kid back.

What banning abortions will do is increase the numbers of poor children, especially minorities, who - guess what - grow up to vote almost entirely Democrat. What introducing a bill to ban abortions does is give Democrats more ammunition to say the only people Republicans care about are old rich white men, and people are receptive to that argument regardless of how true it is.

Why the fuck would you introduce a bill that immediately pushes people to vote Democrat, and in the future will increase the numbers of people voting Democrat, when we are on the hairy edge of having our RKBA voted away by people voting Democrat??? Remember that a constitutional amendment only takes a supermajority and 3/4 of the states, and 1/10 of the nation’s population is in California. States are turning blue fast AF.

If you really want to prevent abortions, get off your high horse and let teenagers be taught about safer sex (which is strongly correlated with teenagers waiting longer and having fewer partners). Greatly increase access to contraception, and make it so parents don’t need to give permission to let their teenage daughters be on birth control. It protects the person working their way through the football team, but it also protects the person who’s raped, or who’s partner stealths or pinholes. You don’t always have a choice about sex. I think compassion for the girl is much more important than protecting a bundle of cells that only has a 50% chance of viability anyway.

How would you like to see a reminder every day for years on end that you weren’t able to protect your daughter from being raped?
 
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ArmyJerry

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Do the responsible thing and jump off a bridge and end your bloodline now. America will be better for your self abortion.

I see no reason to bring a child into this world who’s neither going to be loved nor going to be supported by a full family in all of their needs growing up. I’d rather send that child’s soul, whenever it’s created, straight to God.
 
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ArmyJerry

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well then you should do the right thing, jump.

Libertarians dont care about suffering they care about liberty jackass, stop associating your racist ass with the libertarians when you are clearly a Democrat.
 

gnochi

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Do the responsible thing and jump off a bridge and end your bloodline now. America will be better for your self abortion.
Hmmm, I guess they wouldn’t be able to use that one in their gun violence statistics...

I’m curious, do you care about insert-random-person’s child after it’s born, or just while you can still force an unwilling mother to get a constant reminder of the worst moments of her life?
 

ArmyJerry

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If you must know, yes, I have raised a adopted child, after I already had three of my own so yeah I put my time and money where my mouth is so fuck yerself and jump muther fucker, end your bloodline now, make room for the new kids that will be born.
 

gnochi

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If you must know, yes, I have raised a adopted child, after I already had three of my own so yeah I put my time and money where my mouth is so fuck yerself and jump muther fucker, end your bloodline now, make room for the new kids that will be born.
Then you are a far better person than the majority on your side of the argument. Calling for my death is a bit shitty, but hey, you’re consistent.
 
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ArmyJerry

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Nah man, the American people are good people, the 10% that are like you just need to do the right thing, jump.

Its a little hypocritical that you feel okay to demand a whole race be aborted but take offense when I suggest you self abort, dont ya think???
 

Scarface26

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I see no reason to bring a child into this world who’s neither going to be loved nor going to be supported by a full family in all of their needs growing up. I’d rather send that child’s soul, whenever it’s created, straight to God.

Think Audie Murphy. A sawed off runt hick from nowhere TX with a daddy who ran off and a momma too poor to feed the rest of the family. Wish I were half the man he was. Glad nobody aborted him or me either.

Anyone whose kid needed a brain surgery was probably real happy Ben Carson's illerterate mother and dead beat dad didn't decide he was an inconvenience.

Not your call on when to send someone's soul to God. It's God's call, and He's smarter than the lot of us.

God bless America
 

armorpl8chikn

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Think Audie Murphy. A sawed off runt hick from nowhere TX with a daddy who ran off and a momma too poor to feed the rest of the family. Wish I were half the man he was. Glad nobody aborted him or me either.

Anyone whose kid needed a brain surgery was probably real happy Ben Carson's illerterate mother and dead beat dad didn't decide he was an inconvenience.

Not your call on when to send someone's soul to God. It's God's call, and He's smarter than the lot of us.

God bless America
Orson....if you please, outstanding!
giphy (1).gif
 
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gnochi

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Nah man, the American people are good people, the 10% that are like you just need to do the right thing, jump.

Its a little hypocritical that you feel okay to demand a whole race be aborted but take offense when I suggest you self abort, dont ya think???
I said *nothing* about aborting an entire race. I said that the majority of people who *wouldn’t* be getting abortions anymore are poor, and statistically minorities. The senator’s mistress will find no barriers whatsoever.

For the last decade, there have been a relatively constant ~400k children in foster care, ~250k entering/exiting foster care, and ~50k adoptions per year. Seems like another 150k families need to step up.

I’m certainly not going to say that people who grew up poor or are minorities haven’t grown up to become amazing people, and I’m certainly not going to say that abortion is the answer to every situation - but I feel strongly that there are times that it is, and I dunno about you but I wouldn’t want to judge every single case to see if an exception needs to be made.

In general, I’d much rather ease access to prevention (aka, sex ed that’s actually useful, cheap pill, cheap condom, etc.), which is statistically the most useful anyway, and would prevent far more abortions than passing a law banning them would.
 
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ArmyJerry

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So your answer is to kill them so they dont get put in foster care,,, just jump man.
 

gnochi

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So your answer is to kill them so they dont get put in foster care,,, just jump man.
Prevent the pregnancy in the first place ideally, and by “step up” I meant “people who are against abortion start doing something tangible, like adopting these kids who need permanent homes.”

Also, with 90% of abortions being for reasons other than medical necessity, and ~50% viability of pregnancy, that’ll be another ~600k adoptions per year needed.
 
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MK20

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You make the adoption process more streamlined and you will have no problem getting these kids cared for and loved.

It is better to have a kid that occasionally reminds you you were a victim of someone else than to be reminded by your soul every day that you murdered your child.
 
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gnochi

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You make the adoption process more streamlined and you will have no problem getting these kids cared for and loved.

It is better to have a kid that occasionally reminds you you were a victim of someone else than to be reminded by your soul every day that you murdered your child.
Sounds like a good plan. Streamline adoption, increase access to contraception, and set a target for zero abortions per year.

I vehemently believe nobody has the right to choose what someone else does to their soul. Give people the information and resources to make their own decisions.
 

ArmyJerry

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what are these barriers you see in getting rubbers or birth control pills? they hand them out free in school, give some factual examples to back up your murderous reasoning?

Sounds like a good plan. Streamline adoption, increase access to contraception, and set a target for zero abortions per year.

I vehemently believe nobody has the right to choose what someone else does to their soul. Give people the information and resources to make their own decisions.
 

ArmyJerry

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so what, we are taking in 2 million illegals and 1 million legal immigrants, Id rather have these babies than foreign freeloaders.

Stop trying to justify your murderous ways,

Prevent the pregnancy in the first place ideally, and by “step up” I meant “people who are against abortion start doing something tangible, like adopting these kids who need permanent homes.”

Also, with 90% of abortions being for reasons other than medical necessity, and ~50% viability of pregnancy, that’ll be another ~600k adoptions per year needed.
 

Scarface26

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Something all of us on the right side of this would do well to remember is that there are quite a few people who are "for" abortion who are letting pragmatism get in the way of morality. That's a dangerous place to be in and God forbid we ever end up there. Then there's some really evil people out there, too.

The inter web is a bad place to work this out. If you can spare the time, take a trip to your capitol and sit down with your state rep and state senator. Sit down with your neighbors and hash it out. Give them a Constitution and Declaration of Independence. (it's like holy water on vampires to the really evil. They won't touch it!) We've converted a few here in OK because we took the time to talk with them. If you're not involved with your political party at the local and state level, get involved. Otherwise the wrong people WILL.

We're doing something similar to AL here in OK, and our bill has some real backbone to it. If you're interested, PM me and I'll send you a link. BTW, abolition of abortion is on the OK GOP platform now. I was at the state convention when it passed with a vote of over 900 for and less than 20 against. Wouldn't have believed if I had not been there.

God bless America
 

gnochi

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Orange County, CA
what are these barriers you see in getting rubbers or birth control pills? they hand them out free in school, give some factual examples to back up your murderous reasoning?
Where did you hear that? I think it’s a reasonable assumption that I’m at least a couple decades younger than you, and that has not been the case anywhere I’ve been. The pill tends to run $100/mo without insurance coverage, more if you have a medical contraindication on the generic, and the prescription requires a doctor visit and in some states parental permission before 18. IUDs are closer to $1000 to have installed. Condoms have the issue that either party can cause issues with them, and condom use in rapes is high in random cases but very low amongst people known to the victim beforehand, but they are more reasonably priced at ~50 cents each, unless you’re one of the 5% who can’t fit a standard size, when it’s closer to $2/ea. Certainly cheaper than children, but the options that women can use to protect themselves are pretty steep for someone who might need to scrape pennies together to avoid an abusive partner or family member from noticing.

so what, we are taking in 2 million illegals and 1 million legal immigrants, Id rather have these babies than foreign freeloaders.

Stop trying to justify your murderous ways,
Per DHS, ~70k per year net illegal entry, and ~100k net loss in illegals from Mexico.

And yep, I’m guilty as charged of pragmatism over morality.
 
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Maggot

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I see no reason to bring a child into this world who’s neither going to be loved nor going to be supported by a full family in all of their needs growing up. I’d rather send that child’s soul, whenever it’s created, straight to God.
For sake of argument, where does its soul go if there is no god? It deserves a chance.

While I understand your logic, and it is correct, sometimes logic must be modified due to whats called a Categorical Imperative. If youre not familiar with that term, Google it. It kind of boils down to there are certain things that you do because you have no option. Defending the life of the innocent and unborn is just one of those things. Jumping on a grenade to save your friends when you could have gotten away isnt logical. Its a CI..how could you live with yourself if you let them die by saving yourself. YOu do it because you have no choice by your honor. Not saying I would, probably piss myself and run, but I got the idea.
 

ArmyJerry

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morality has nothing to do with it Maggot they guy is hell bent on killing minority babies, and is suspect babies in general.
 

ArmyJerry

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and you are a liar too

Where did you hear that? I think it’s a reasonable assumption that I’m at least a couple decades younger than you, and that has not been the case anywhere I’ve been. The pill tends to run $100/mo without insurance coverage, more if you have a medical contraindication on the generic, and the prescription requires a doctor visit and in some states parental permission before 18. IUDs are closer to $1000 to have installed. Condoms have the issue that either party can cause issues with them, and condom use in rapes is estimated to be around but they are more reasonably priced at ~50 cents each, unless you’re one of the 5% who can’t fit a standard size, when it’s closer to $2/ea. Certainly cheaper than children, but the options that women can use to protect themselves are pretty steep for someone who might need to scrape pennies together to avoid an abusive partner or family member from noticing.



Per DHS, ~70k per year net illegal entry, and ~100k net loss in illegals from Mexico.

And yep, I’m guilty as charged of pragmatism over morality.
 

gnochi

Private
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May 6, 2019
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Orange County, CA
For sake of argument, where does its soul go if there is no god? It deserves a chance.

While I understand your logic, and it is correct, sometimes logic must be modified due to whats called a Categorical Imperative. If youre not familiar with that term, Google it. It kind of boils down to there are certain things that you do because you have no option. Defending the life of the innocent and unborn is just one of those things. Jumping on a grenade to save your friends when you could have gotten away isnt logical. Its a CI..how could you live with yourself if you let them die by saving yourself. YOu do it because you have no choice by your honor. Not saying I would, probably piss myself and run, but I got the idea.
Firstly, I greatly appreciate your being reasonable. Walking generally between the aisles, it’s interesting seeing the arguments used by one side for thing A and against thing B be the exact same arguments as the other side uses for thing B and against thing A. There are logical people on both sides, and emotional people on both sides, and everyone generally wants the same things. The disagreements are how to get there.

If there is no God, than every religious-based argument is utterly without meaning. If life is just some cosmic coincidence of chemical reactions, then does this batch of chemicals have any more value than that batch of chemicals? Is person A truly lost, or does person B take their place? We don’t have all the answers, so my general response is “let people make their choices, and let them face whatever consequences may come.” I want them to have the information and resources to make an informed decision, and I want them to be able to make their decisions.

I agree that protecting the innocent is a categorical imperative. I disagree that forcing them to be born is inherently protecting them. In the same vein, I support statutory rape laws and voluntary euthanasia. My living will makes it clear to not resuscitate me if I have a catastrophic head injury. If I would need to be plugged into life support to keep me alive, don’t.
 
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ArmyJerry

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not a good idea to try to reason with the unreasonable, especially when they have tendencies toward eugenics.
 

gnochi

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Orange County, CA
Without ban/poll tax/barriers:
- People with means/connections have access to contraception/abortion/guns/drugs/voting/market
- People without means/connections have access to contraception/abortion/guns/drugs/voting/market

With ban/poll tax/barriers:
- People with means/connections have access to contraception/abortion/guns/drugs/voting/market, according to an enormous body of evidence called “recorded history”
- People without means/connections do not have access to contraception/abortion/guns/drugs/voting/market

Not sure how thinking the former is more reasonable than the latter is eugenics.
 

Maggot

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Firstly, I greatly appreciate your being reasonable. Walking generally between the aisles, it’s interesting seeing the arguments used by one side for thing A and against thing B be the exact same arguments as the other side uses for thing B and against thing A. There are logical people on both sides, and emotional people on both sides, and everyone generally wants the same things. The disagreements are how to get there.

If there is no God, than every religious-based argument is utterly without meaning. If life is just some cosmic coincidence of chemical reactions, then does this batch of chemicals have any more value than that batch of chemicals? Is person A truly lost, or does person B take their place? We don’t have all the answers, so my general response is “let people make their choices, and let them face whatever consequences may come.” I want them to have the information and resources to make an informed decision, and I want them to be able to make their decisions.

I agree that protecting the innocent is a categorical imperative. I disagree that forcing them to be born is inherently protecting them. In the same vein, I support statutory rape laws and voluntary euthanasia. My living will makes it clear to not resuscitate me if I have a catastrophic head injury. If I would need to be plugged into life support to keep me alive, don’t.
Honestly, while I admit to some sort of greater power, I often find myself wondering.

Regardless, I always ask myself, "How would I act if there is/was no god?" Since I choose to live an honorable and INTELLIGENT life Id act exactly as I would if there is a God. Id treat every living thing the way I want to be treated, not because "God told me to and he'll whip my ass if I dont" but because I understand one of the basic principles of physics and life itself. "Every action has an equal and opposite reaction.", "You reap what you sow. apples for apples, wheat for wheat" What ever I do is going to return, so my actions are purely selfish. I want good to return so I put out good.

"I want them to have the information and resources to make an informed decision, and I want them to be able to make their decisions. "

I agree up to the point they choose to make a decision for someone else...in this case the living human in their belly.

" I disagree that forcing them to be born is inherently protecting them."

No one is forcing them to be born, that will happen according to their 'telos' or natural path. We only want to protect them from being murdered.

I understand the logic but it smacks of..."Half of Africa is malnourished, lets just evaporate them for their own good."

And I to have no desire to be a vegetable.
 
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