Very little elevation adjustment after zeroing

dbow

Private
Jan 6, 2018
3
0
0
#1
Hello everyone,

I am very new to long range precision shooting and just recently purchased a savage stealth in 6.5 Creedmoor. I put an Athlon Argos 6-24x50 on top inside weaver tactical six hole rings. I did not change the base to a 20 moa base.

After zeroing the rifle at 100 yards I only have 4.9mils up of adjustment left. Is this because I did not use a 20moa base or did I do something else wrong? Or is it the scope (I doubt it is the scope but is there a way I can test it to make sure?)?

Thanks for any advice.
 

BobinNC

Gunny Sergeant
Jan 31, 2009
4,735
8
38
67
Goldsboro, NC
#2
You only had 18 Mils to start with: which means you had 9 mils up and 9 mils down, that's before zeroing. You apparently used 4.1 mils up to zero. If you used a 20 MOA base you would have about 9.6 mils of up elevation. If you could get a 30 MOA base ( or alternatively Burris XTR Signature rings that come with inserts that let you add cant) you could up your available elevation to about 13 Mils.
 
Aug 5, 2013
495
30
28
Bullhead City ,AZ
#3
No you didn't do anything wrong. How many mils of total adjustment do you have?? As an example my scope has 26 mil of total travel, the rifle came with a 20 moa base on it.. I had to come up 7.3 mil from the absolute bottom so after I set my zero I have 18.7 mils of adjustment up. If a changed to a 30 moa base it would give me roughly 21.7 mils of adjustment up.
So yes you need a minimum of a 20 moa base or a 20 moa mount
 

dbow

Private
Jan 6, 2018
3
0
0
#4
Thank you for the replies. I will order a 20 or 30 moa base to increase my elevation adjustment. However with a 30 moa will I have a hard time zeroing it at 100 yards?
 

koshkin

Dark Lord Of Optics
Feb 22, 2006
1,281
500
113
Los Angeles
www.opticsthoughts.com
#6
I have not had good luck with Weaver Tactical rings, to put it mildly. Every pair I have seen was screwed up in some creative ways. Just like BobinNC said: for a scope with limited adjustment, rather than experiment with different inclined bases, get a set of Burris XTR Signature rings. That's your best bet.

ILya
 
Aug 5, 2013
495
30
28
Bullhead City ,AZ
#8
As other have said you need the moa. I am not a fan of rings I prefer a 1 piece mount. Having said that the Burris ring sound interesting the only other I know about that have moa in them are the Barrett rings but I am sure they cost more then the Burris.
 
Dec 23, 2017
105
1
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#10
So I also just bought a Savage Stealth, except in .308. I also bought the Athlon Argos 6-24x50, same as the OP. I am new to long range shooting, hell rifles in general with all the things that go into a scope and what not. What size base comes on the Savage Stealth? Anyone know. I am planning on trying to reach out to my range maximum of 850 yds, so will I have a problem doing that with this Athlon Argos scope? Also, with these Burris XTR Signature Rings, what does this mean? "The plastic inserts let you choose between 5, 10, 15, 20, 25, 30 or 40 MOA of cant." What exactly does the "can't" do? I appreciate the help in understanding this so I can set my rifle up the best I can. Thanks.
 
Feb 13, 2017
426
56
28
#11
So I also just bought a Savage Stealth, except in .308. I also bought the Athlon Argos 6-24x50, same as the OP. I am new to long range shooting, hell rifles in general with all the things that go into a scope and what not. What size base comes on the Savage Stealth? Anyone know. I am planning on trying to reach out to my range maximum of 850 yds, so will I have a problem doing that with this Athlon Argos scope? Also, with these Burris XTR Signature Rings, what does this mean? "The plastic inserts let you choose between 5, 10, 15, 20, 25, 30 or 40 MOA of cant." What exactly does the "can't" do? I appreciate the help in understanding this so I can set my rifle up the best I can. Thanks.
I was told by a friend that his is 0 MOA base. He is in the process of buying new base and rings as we speak.
 

ICU22250

Perfectionist
Feb 13, 2017
1,112
75
48
WV
#13
20 MOA guys, just get a 20 MOA Rail and a good set of precision matched rings and your GTG.... Don't over think it...
 
Feb 13, 2017
426
56
28
#14
Your saying he told you his base on a Savage Stealth is 0 MOA? If so, any idea what size base and what rings he's buying?
He told me he called Savage and they informed him it was 0 MOA. He’s getting a Set if Seekins rings and a Seekins base. At least that’s what I’m trying to get him to buy.
 

spife7980

Full Member
Feb 10, 2017
3,367
455
83
TX
#15
Also, with these Burris XTR Signature Rings, what does this mean? "The plastic inserts let you choose between 5, 10, 15, 20, 25, 30 or 40 MOA of cant." What exactly does the "can't" do? I appreciate the help in understanding this so I can set my rifle up the best I can. Thanks.
Were talking generalities here, your specifics may change a bit here or there as not all rifles will zero directly in the middle of their travel range.

1 MOA is .3 mils, a 20 moa mount is 5.93 mils if you want to convert the two different units depending if you have a mil or moa model. I will be going on MOA for the following:

With a zero degree cant the rail is parallel to the bore. What that means is that in the theoretical when you zero your scope you would have equal travel up and down. An argos btr 6-24 has 60 moa of travel, that means 30 up and 30 down.
A canted rail will off set that some to shift the angle in relation to the rifle converting down travel into up travel. So if you put a 20 moa canted base on the rifle your 60 moa scope would have 50 up and 10 down of available elevation travel.

A canted base doesn't add or take away any of the scopes range of travel, it just shifts where you zero at so that you can take advantage of more when you dial up for long range shots.

You also have to consider the amount of travel in the scope when buying a base. If you were to have put a 30 moa base on with your 60 moa scope that would mean you are zeroing at the very bottom of the scopes movement converting everything to up travel, something you dont want to do not only because you might not be able to actually zero your rifle before running out of travel but because its not good for your scope to be bottomed out like that, it could lead to issues so its safer to leave a bit of a buffer below it, I would feel comfortable going down to 10 moa of travel left.

With your rifle being a 308 and you having 30 mils of up travel in your scope on its 0 cant base you will get to around 800 yards and some change before running out of adjustment, so if you are wanting to take your argos topped 308 out to 1000 you might want to look into a base. Im showing a 308 going to 1000 with 44 moa of travel, so the 20 moa should be a perfect fit, gives you 50 moa of travel which will get you just to the other side of 1k and leaves you 10 moa of down travel to account for your particular zero conditions.

The rings have inserts that allow you to change them around to put that angle inside the ring bodies instead of the rail that the rings mount onto.
 
Dec 23, 2017
105
1
18
#16
Were talking generalities here, your specifics may change a bit here or there as not all rifles will zero directly in the middle of their travel range.

1 MOA is .3 mils, a 20 moa mount is 5.93 mils if you want to convert the two different units depending if you have a mil or moa model. I will be going on MOA for the following:

With a zero degree cant the rail is parallel to the bore. What that means is that in the theoretical when you zero your scope you would have equal travel up and down. An argos btr 6-24 has 60 moa of travel, that means 30 up and 30 down.
A canted rail will off set that some to shift the angle in relation to the rifle converting down travel into up travel. So if you put a 20 moa canted base on the rifle your 60 moa scope would have 50 up and 10 down of available elevation travel.

A canted base doesn't add or take away any of the scopes range of travel, it just shifts where you zero at so that you can take advantage of more when you dial up for long range shots.

You also have to consider the amount of travel in the scope when buying a base. If you were to have put a 30 moa base on with your 60 moa scope that would mean you are zeroing at the very bottom of the scopes movement converting everything to up travel, something you dont want to do not only because you might not be able to actually zero your rifle before running out of travel but because its not good for your scope to be bottomed out like that, it could lead to issues so its safer to leave a bit of a buffer below it, I would feel comfortable going down to 10 moa of travel left.

With your rifle being a 308 and you having 30 mils of up travel in your scope on its 0 cant base you will get to around 800 yards and some change before running out of adjustment, so if you are wanting to take your argos topped 308 out to 1000 you might want to look into a base. Im showing a 308 going to 1000 with 44 moa of travel, so the 20 moa should be a perfect fit, gives you 50 moa of travel which will get you just to the other side of 1k and leaves you 10 moa of down travel to account for your particular zero conditions.

The rings have inserts that allow you to change them around to put that angle inside the ring bodies instead of the rail that the rings mount onto.
Spife! Thank you so much for explaining that. I understand that perfectly. So I haven' bought rings yet, so should unjust go ahead and get the Burris XTR signature rings than, or should I just get the 20 MOA Base and a good set of standard rings?
 
Feb 7, 2013
1,857
383
83
The West
#17
?"The plastic inserts let you choose between 5, 10, 15, 20, 25, 30 or 40 MOA of cant." What exactly does the "can't" do? I appreciate the help in understanding this so I can set my rifle up the best I can. Thanks.
First I think most new to shooting long range tactical go about scope select completely backwards.

Assuming the scope has the needed features such as easily adjustable turrets / OBJ etc., the priority should be available elevation. Seems everyone chases magnification. In many cases magnification come at the compromise of travel. Unfortunately, you are already down this road.

We need a better PSA.

Burris plastic system is flexible but not something IÂ’ would ever use.. (lots of reasons).

The cant in this case is used to capture some of the unused elevation in the scope that is below your zero.

20moa cant is about 6mls. You need to be careful that you donÂ’t go more on lower travel scopes or you will loose your ability to zero at 100 and or create a situation weÂ’re the erector assembly is slammed at the bottom. It is not only bad for the springs but can create optical (shading) issues.











Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
 

spife7980

Full Member
Feb 10, 2017
3,367
455
83
TX
#18
so should unjust go ahead and get the Burris XTR signature rings than, or should I just get the 20 MOA Base and a good set of standard rings?
Its up to you, a six of one/half dozen of the other situation.
Personally I like to put the cant in the rail and a good set of normal rings without plastic in them but that comes with an increase in price. Im prejudice against burris for reasons unknown... just dont like them. With that said I havent heard of anyone being displeased with them xtr signature rings so I will recommend them begrudgingly.
You could do the XTR signatures for 100 bucks and be done with it. If going for the rail then that would be about 50 bucks on top of the cost of the rings and its not something that typically would be able to move with the scope, so in your situation some could frame it as redundant or sunken costs.

 
Dec 23, 2017
105
1
18
#19
Its up to you, a six of one/half dozen of the other situation.
Personally I like to put the cant in the rail and a good set of normal rings without plastic in them but that comes with an increase in price. Im prejudice against burris for reasons unknown... just dont like them. With that said I havent heard of anyone being displeased with them xtr signature rings so I will recommend them begrudgingly.
You could do the XTR signatures for 100 bucks and be done with it. If going for the rail then that would be about 50 bucks on top of the cost of the rings and its not something that typically would be able to move with the scope, so in your situation some could frame it as redundant or sunken costs.
Thanks again for your time Spife! I really appreciate your help. You cleared up a lot for me. Thank you.
 

BobinNC

Gunny Sergeant
Jan 31, 2009
4,735
8
38
67
Goldsboro, NC
#20
I understand some reluctance when it comes Burris XTR Signature Rings. I thought that too before I used them. If fact I was advised to use them by a noted hater of all things Burris, who used to grace these pages under the name of Nobody. Long time posters pre-2010 will well remember that user. He still hates all things Burris except for these rings apparently. And he is right. Since I'm the person that uses them and recommend them let me give you my rational for their use and deployment.

First, the Burris XTR Signature Rings are not a replacement/substitute for good quality bases and traditional rings. I've used bases by Badger, Nightforce, Seekins, and Ken Farrell mostly. My favorite ring choices have been mostly Badger Alloy, Nightforce Ultralights, Seekins and APA. But theese Burris Signature XTR Rings are useful and invaluable in certain specific installations.

These are:

1) When you acquire a rifle that already has a 0 cant base that does not allow you to maximize your scopes elevation potential to reach the needs of your application, and you still need to buy rings. This is why I first bought these rings. My Tikka CTR stainless came with a pic rail that was 0 MOA canted. Instead of buying a set of both a bases and rings, I just bought rings, and use the inserts to give myself 30 MOA of cant.

2) When you buy a scope, like the OP above with only 18 Mils total, and that has insufficient elevation for his application. After using 4.1 Mils to zero, a 20 MOA base will yield him less 10 Mils total. A 30 MOA may not work at all. With these Burris rings he can try 30 MOA, and if he can't zero @ 100 yds, he can adjust them down to 25 MOA and not have to buy a new base.

3) Another great place to use these rings are with custom actions that have integral 20 MOA bases, Usually thats enough with most any cartridge to reach 1kyds and then some. But maybe your round is good out to 1750 yds. and beyond, and the integral a 20 MOA base just won't get you there, and there's no option to just get another base. With the Burris rings you can choose to add another 5, 10,15, 20, or 25 MOA if you scope can take it

So Burris XTR Signature are not the only solution nor even the best solution to scoping a precision rifle. However, they can do some things that will save your bacon or your hard earned money in certain situations. And if your facing one of those as noted above, use these rings with confidence....They just work.
 
Feb 7, 2013
1,857
383
83
The West
#21
So Burris XTR Signature are not the only solution nor even the best solution to scoping a precision rifle. However, they can do some things that will save your bacon or your hard earned money in certain situations. And if your facing one of those as noted above, use these rings with confidence....They just work.
FWIW I have several friends that have used them and now of several others how have had problems with tightness and erectors confirmed after box testing.

So while I agree they might be helpful in some situations where a base isn't going to work or isn't available; going down that road as the first step does not make a lot of sense. Understanding what your intended uses are for your system and getting the best for that purpose within your budget, or deciding to save are better process.

Now, I'll make some rather large assumptions because the whole path of the OP is totally typical sounding.
1. He bought the Lowest cost 25x range scope because it looked to have the "field style features" (reticle and exposed turrets) and the power he would "need".
2. He has a Creed
3. He is on SH
4. He is concerned about elevation.

So my assumption is that he is hoping to shoot long range distances or even you might find in your typical PRS match (some over 1K). I will say that if the op never is going past 500m, then that scope and combo should be fine and my assumptions are wrong..

Now, he already has an investment that isn't best suited for those tasks.. Does he cut bait and sell with a hard restart, just spend another $40 on a 20 MOA base or go with the much more expensive plastic inserts? He already knows he can only use 20MOA.. The how idea of switching out insert to go to a mile, is just so.. IDK no words here, except except making pigs sing...

Again the main mistake, probably started with thinking that he needs 25ish magnification for longer range. But he would have been far better off with a used 3-15 that provides more travel (maybe with a couple extra $ even FFP) if he is indeed interested in precision long range.. Heck most the guys I know, even guys winning PRS matches run around 15x even on long range targets. I acknowledge that in this example it is about target acquisition; but my point is that 15x doesn't slow people down from making solid hits past 1K.

Sure I get being on a budget, but use your money wisely. If one is taking time out of their schedule, driving to the range, sending a $1.25 (6.5) plus with each squeeze... why cut corners so much?
 
Last edited:
Dec 23, 2017
105
1
18
#22
I understand some reluctance when it comes Burris XTR Signature Rings. I thought that too before I used them. If fact I was advised to use them by a noted hater of all things Burris, who used to grace these pages under the name of Nobody. Long time posters pre-2010 will well remember that user. He still hates all things Burris except for these rings apparently. And he is right. Since I'm the person that uses them and recommend them let me give you my rational for their use and deployment.

First, the Burris XTR Signature Rings are not a replacement/substitute for good quality bases and traditional rings. I've used bases by Badger, Nightforce, Seekins, and Ken Farrell mostly. My favorite ring choices have been mostly Badger Alloy, Nightforce Ultralights, Seekins and APA. But theese Burris Signature XTR Rings are useful and invaluable in certain specific installations.

These are:

1) When you acquire a rifle that already has a 0 cant base that does not allow you to maximize your scopes elevation potential to reach the needs of your application, and you still need to buy rings. This is why I first bought these rings. My Tikka CTR stainless came with a pic rail that was 0 MOA canted. Instead of buying a set of both a bases and rings, I just bought rings, and use the inserts to give myself 30 MOA of cant.

2) When you buy a scope, like the OP above with only 18 Mils total, and that has insufficient elevation for his application. After using 4.1 Mils to zero, a 20 MOA base will yield him less 10 Mils total. A 30 MOA may not work at all. With these Burris rings he can try 30 MOA, and if he can't zero @ 100 yds, he can adjust them down to 25 MOA and not have to buy a new base.

3) Another great place to use these rings are with custom actions that have integral 20 MOA bases, Usually thats enough with most any cartridge to reach 1kyds and then some. But maybe your round is good out to 1750 yds. and beyond, and the integral a 20 MOA base just won't get you there, and there's no option to just get another base. With the Burris rings you can choose to add another 5, 10,15, 20, or 25 MOA if you scope can take it

So Burris XTR Signature are not the only solution nor even the best solution to scoping a precision rifle. However, they can do some things that will save your bacon or your hard earned money in certain situations. And if your facing one of those as noted above, use these rings with confidence....They just work.
BobinNC, thanks for the reply. I will look into them, but may just go with a 20 MOA or the Burris XTR rings. We'll see, but thanks for that info. I appreciate it.
 
Apr 16, 2017
9
0
1
#23
So I also just bought a Savage Stealth, except in .308. I also bought the Athlon Argos 6-24x50, same as the OP. Also, with these Burris XTR Signature Rings, what does this mean? "The plastic inserts let you choose between 5, 10, 15, 20, 25, 30 or 40 MOA of cant." What exactly does the "can't" do? I appreciate the help in understanding this so I can set my rifle up the best I can. Thanks.
"Cant" and "can't" (can not) are not the same. Cant is simply another way of saying "tilt"or "slant". The plastic inserts provide tilt in whichever direction is needed to set your scope properly. If your bases do not have a built-in angle or cant, they are level. The plastic inserts make it possible to introduce the needed cant to suit your needs. Also, if for instance you already have a 20 MOA base, the inserts allow you to add more.
 
Dec 23, 2017
105
1
18
#24
"Cant" and "can't" (can not) are not the same. Cant is simply another way of saying "tilt"or "slant".
Thanks for the English lesson Doubs! I know that, I was on my phone when I posted, and I'm pretty sure you have heard of that thing called auto correct right? Thanks for your reply.
 

vh20

Gunny Sergeant
Dec 2, 2012
1,474
185
63
53
#25
"Cant" and "can't" (can not) are not the same. Cant is simply another way of saying "tilt"or "slant". The plastic inserts provide tilt in whichever direction is needed to set your scope properly. If your bases do not have a built-in angle or cant, they are level. The plastic inserts make it possible to introduce the needed cant to suit your needs. Also, if for instance you already have a 20 MOA base, the inserts allow you to add more.
It is almost impossible to type the word "cant" on a modern device without having to override autocorrect. It does it every time.
 
Feb 7, 2013
1,857
383
83
The West
#26
It is almost impossible to type the word "cant" on a modern device without having to override autocorrect. It does it every time.
Even worse is Tapatalk on my iPhone -

It makes weird charters when I try to use most common punctation. It's to the point that I am starting to leave words out and my writing sounding more Mandarin than English.

I can't type "can't", "let's" or even cheat with "lets"; "I'll" etc.. As an example, when I am on TapaTalk, if I tried to type >> That's great, let's go, I'll tell them when they're.. etc.. << it ends up being something like That'^As great, le^As's go, I'^Asll tell them when they^Asre.. --- so I have to go back a delete entire words when I remember, making it even harder to read than my poor typing is already.

Thankfully most one here are fairly forgiving of the hastily put together typing.
 
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