Thanks PT&G!

bohem

PVA's HMFIC
Jan 6, 2009
7,126
371
83
Southeast, PA
www.patriotvalleyarms.com
#2
Let me preface the following with this statement.

I'm not defending PTG outright as they've cocked up a LOT of stuff for me BUT!

This is likely more the cause of a gunsmith reaming a chamber with a floating holder that wasn't "floating" properly than it was PTG's fault. Typically their reamers are out of spec by a thou or two, not 10 at the web. I've seen this a lot from good shooting barrels that had excessive runout due to one of 3 things:
1) a poorly dialed in bore
2) a rigid holder that wasn't running coaxially to the spindle bore
3) a floating holder that was not floating... you'd be surprised at just how much this happens.
 
Sep 6, 2006
1,955
153
63
Southern California
#4
I’ve actually had the opposite issue with them on two reamers. Both were undersized at the base by a few thousandths. Would just barely work with domestic brass, but no chance with lapua. .008 on the fat side is a lot though.


Is this your personal reamer?
 

JFComfort

Las Vegas Long Range OG
Mar 19, 2009
1,945
176
63
Las Vegas, Nevada
#7
I’m never on to assume no errors were made on my part as a builder/manufacturer or others but we’ve had a lot of issues with PT&G stuff. We avoid using them anyway we can at this point.
 
Likes: Ksracer

RonA

Sergeant
Jul 10, 2011
286
11
18
62
Browns Valley CA
#10
As stated earlier PTG "blows".
I have a dozen or so reamers from them and no problems, but I do use a tail stock and dog when chambering. That being said, I just bought my last PTG item yesterday. JGS didn't pick up so I ordered a .338 Lapua reamer and go gauge. Good price(as usual), 6-8 weeks(not so good for such a common reamer). I paid by credit card and told the customer it would be 6-8 weeks for the tooling. This morning JGS called and said they had the reamer and gauge in stock for about $60 more. I told them I would call back after making sure I could cancel the PTG order. PTG told me there would be a 15% re-stocking fee(ok, I get that, but it still annoys me), and they do not give refunds, only in house credits? So by holding a gun to my wallet, I now will have a PTG reamer and gauge coming(the last item I will ever buy from them), and a JGS reamer on the way to finish the job. Poor business practice for a company that should know better. JGS make better reamers any way so in a way it probably is for the best. Sorry Dave Kiff, but your customer service and policies kind of suck.
 

Xander3Zero

Sergeant of the Hide
Aug 10, 2017
349
79
28
Rhode Island
#12
Lol, I am about to start an online storefront and see if I can make a living by just listing a bunch of products as out of stock (backorder ok!).

When I get orders I'll just let the customer know that it will be about 6-8 years before their backorder is filled, and if they want to cancel I can give them store credit... minus the restocking fee of course!
 
Feb 13, 2017
2,121
1,127
113
Camano Island, Washington
#13
Lol, I am about to start an online storefront and see if I can make a living by just listing a bunch of products as out of stock (backorder ok!).

When I get orders I'll just let the customer know that it will be about 6-8 years before their backorder is filled, and if they want to cancel I can give them store credit... minus the restocking fee of course!
On a similar vein, you could start an Online "Fan Club";

 

Boltfluter

Gunny Sergeant
Jan 4, 2012
1,841
24
38
57
Haines, Oregon
www.boltfluting.com
#14
How in the hell can there be a "restocking fee" for something that physically does not exist yet. There is nothing to put back on the shelf. PTG should write a book on how to run a once good company into the ground bit by bit. Just sad at this point.

Paul
 
Likes: Bradu

RonA

Sergeant
Jul 10, 2011
286
11
18
62
Browns Valley CA
#15
I got a call back from PTG asking if I wanted any special neck of throat configurations. I told them I didn't care what they did, I would not be using it. He told me I could order something else instead if I didn't need the Lapua reamer. I told him I had no interest in ever ordering anything from them again. Just send the reamer as ordered and our business is done. I let 3 other shops know about this and 2 have already had their own issues and are buying elsewhere. I'm going to post it on our facebook page just to let a few more know that the place is having problems. Good customer service and business practices are important to me. I have them, and don't like dealing with companies that don't.
 
Likes: Xander3Zero
Feb 13, 2017
2,121
1,127
113
Camano Island, Washington
#16
I got a call back from PTG asking if I wanted any special neck of throat configurations. I told them I didn't care what they did, I would not be using it. He told me I could order something else instead if I didn't need the Lapua reamer. I told him I had no interest in ever ordering anything from them again. Just send the reamer as ordered and our business is done. I let 3 other shops know about this and 2 have already had their own issues and are buying elsewhere. I'm going to post it on our facebook page just to let a few more know that the place is having problems. Good customer service and business practices are important to me. I have them, and don't like dealing with companies that don't.
If you haven't already, you should contact your credit card company to see if they can/will reverse the charges.

I had a generally similar experience w/PTG a couple of years ago (haven't used them since). Pissed me off bad enough that I sent an e-mail (or letter, can't remember which) to Dave Kiff about my experience. When Dave had first started up w/PTG years ago, he had helped me out on a 30/338 Lapua reamer, his service was quite good. I remembered that and penned my e-mail in the context that I was sad to see his organization deteriorate to where it was and that I truly hoped he could/would turn it around. No response whatsoever. Crickets.
They seem to have grown quite a bit over the years. Maybe they have military/government contracts that have fueled their growth and us civilians just fill up the crumbs of production spots. Maybe we are more of an inconvenience than anything else, I dunno. I Have zero interest in ever doing business with them again.

Conversely, I have had nothing but good experiences with Dave Manson. He's an honest guy and gives you the straight skinny;

https://mansonreamers.com/
 

RonA

Sergeant
Jul 10, 2011
286
11
18
62
Browns Valley CA
#17
If you haven't already, you should contact your credit card company to see if they can/will reverse the charges.

I had a generally similar experience w/PTG a couple of years ago (haven't used them since). Pissed me off bad enough that I sent an e-mail (or letter, can't remember which) to Dave Kiff about my experience. When Dave had first started up w/PTG years ago, he had helped me out on a 30/338 Lapua reamer, his service was quite good. I remembered that and penned my e-mail in the context that I was sad to see his organization deteriorate to where it was and that I truly hoped he could/would turn it around. No response whatsoever. Crickets.
They seem to have grown quite a bit over the years. Maybe they have military/government contracts that have fueled their growth and us civilians just fill up the crumbs of production spots. Maybe we are more of an inconvenience than anything else, I dunno. I Have zero interest in ever doing business with them again.

Conversely, I have had nothing but good experiences with Dave Manson. He's an honest guy and gives you the straight skinny;

https://mansonreamers.com/
I thought about it, but decided not to cancel the charge. Being pissed off is a great way for me to remember PTG. One of my friends mention Manson and quite frankly I was surprised since I was always told to avoid their stuff(this coming from 10 years back or so). Shops change, so I plan on giving them a try at some point. I have always had good luck with JGS, but then I don't do a lot of chambering and only have a few reamers. I will have a brand new PTG .338 reamer for sale in a couple of months :).
 

Xander3Zero

Sergeant of the Hide
Aug 10, 2017
349
79
28
Rhode Island
#18
I may be wrong, but doesn't PTG make one piece bolts for a few of the custom actions out there? I had thought I read somewhere that Stiller uses bolts from PTG and maybe some others as well? If this is true, it could be part of the reason that their service towards non-contract customers has gone to shit.

I definitely won't be buying anything from them given all the terrible stories I've read.
 

Bandit31

For Sale Access
Feb 6, 2018
185
39
28
Bakersfield, Ca
#19
I may be wrong, but doesn't PTG make one piece bolts for a few of the custom actions out there? I had thought I read somewhere that Stiller uses bolts from PTG and maybe some others as well? If this is true, it could be part of the reason that their service towards non-contract customers has gone to shit.

I definitely won't be buying anything from them given all the terrible stories I've read.


I don't believe they did in the past but they could be making Stillers bolts now. I know they have replacement bolts labeled for the Stillers but Stiller also makes PTG's B series action which is why they may be that way. If I also recall correctly, there was a shake up at Stiller in the past year to two so maybe there has been some changes. I've also heard their qc has kind of gone down recently also.
 
Feb 13, 2017
2,121
1,127
113
Camano Island, Washington
#20
I thought about it, but decided not to cancel the charge. Being pissed off is a great way for me to remember PTG. One of my friends mention Manson and quite frankly I was surprised since I was always told to avoid their stuff(this coming from 10 years back or so). Shops change, so I plan on giving them a try at some point. I have always had good luck with JGS, but then I don't do a lot of chambering and only have a few reamers. I will have a brand new PTG .338 reamer for sale in a couple of months :).
Yeah, I guess the other thing that bothers me is the lack of contrition or effort to clean things up on Kiff's part. He cannot be unaware of the rep that PTG has and the poor level of C/S. Jesus, if you're a business owner, you understand that's the kiss of death. The apparent lack of interest seems to imply he just doesn't care. I dunno, maybe he doesn't need to. Either way, not someone I'm going to do business with again. It's sad, he did have a great reputation some years ago.
 
Feb 13, 2017
2,121
1,127
113
Camano Island, Washington
#22
On the previous "PTG Sucks!!" thread, an employee joined the thread and attempted to justify many of the problems.
Don't remember her name.
Yeah, I have to respect someone that does make that kind of effort, particularly when you know (or should know) that you are probably treading into a lions den.

In reality, I'd like to see them clean up their act and be more successful. It's just really distressing to see a potentially good company not address problems and suffer from it/them. We, as a shooting community would be stronger if they did get themselves ship shape.
 
Feb 21, 2018
13
6
3
#23
I have a dozen or so reamers from them and no problems, but I do use a tail stock and dog when chambering. That being said, I just bought my last PTG item yesterday. JGS didn't pick up so I ordered a .338 Lapua reamer and go gauge. Good price(as usual), 6-8 weeks(not so good for such a common reamer). I paid by credit card and told the customer it would be 6-8 weeks for the tooling. This morning JGS called and said they had the reamer and gauge in stock for about $60 more. I told them I would call back after making sure I could cancel the PTG order. PTG told me there would be a 15% re-stocking fee(ok, I get that, but it still annoys me), and they do not give refunds, only in house credits? So by holding a gun to my wallet, I now will have a PTG reamer and gauge coming(the last item I will ever buy from them), and a JGS reamer on the way to finish the job. Poor business practice for a company that should know better. JGS make better reamers any way so in a way it probably is for the best. Sorry Dave Kiff, but your customer service and policies kind of suck.
It is too bad that for they way I am chambering, something about JGS reamers doesn't get along with it. PTG reamers cut dead silent and JGS are noisy, almost sounds like they are grinding. They work fine for me with heavy oil on the manual machine but not in
I thought about it, but decided not to cancel the charge. Being pissed off is a great way for me to remember PTG. One of my friends mention Manson and quite frankly I was surprised since I was always told to avoid their stuff(this coming from 10 years back or so). Shops change, so I plan on giving them a try at some point. I have always had good luck with JGS, but then I don't do a lot of chambering and only have a few reamers. I will have a brand new PTG .338 reamer for sale in a couple of months :).
Let me know whet the specs are. I may be interested. I’m about an hour from you.
 
Feb 14, 2017
91
2
8
#24
I stopped buying their stuff long ago, but after spending about 10hrs in the last 2 months fixing F'd up PTG stuff that customers had supplied, I got on the phone with intentions of finding out what the hell their problem was. The farthest I could make it was the production manager, I believe her name was LaRoux. She flat denied that they were having any problems at all. It was rather comical, in a sad kind of way. I've since implemented a complete ban. You want to use something from PTG in your rifle? Find somebody else to build it, it's not worth the headache for me.
 

FUNCTIONAL

Dirty Civilian
Feb 19, 2012
391
34
28
Charlotte, NC
#25
Ordered about $650 in tooling. Only thing out of stock was one set of reamer bushings. 8 weeks later it all shipped minus a go guage that was in stock at the time i ordered. Well i can't do shit without a guage and there was no lead time they could give me. So i payed more and ordered it from grizzly. Called ptg to cancel the backordered guage and they said 15% restocking....on a damn part that they don't even have. Everything i get is fine.....its getting it and dealing with those asshats. I keep coming back for punishment because they have stuff in stock and are cheaper. I need to learn.
 

Rthur

Philomath
Apr 16, 2010
5,670
1,432
113
49
Divernon, Illinios
#26
Had an experience recently with a PT&G go gauge.
Either Lapua or PT&G had a error.
Datum check between the two was .010 or slightly better.
I understand factory brass is always undersized but this seemed excessive.

R
 

Rthur

Philomath
Apr 16, 2010
5,670
1,432
113
49
Divernon, Illinios
#30
Hmm, that’s weird. .338 brass is totally fubar short. My 47 brass has always been really close, like go minus a thou. Curious to know where your issue is.
Bought this lot several years ago, 600 pieces.
As far as my experience with both I'm leaning towards PT&G.
After seeing and hearing the stories it would be par for the course.
Don't have my numbers with me though.

R
 

MarinePMI

Battery Operated Grunt
Jun 3, 2010
1,790
245
63
San Diego, Ca
#31
On the previous "PTG Sucks!!" thread, an employee joined the thread and attempted to justify many of the problems.
Don't remember her name.
Pretty sure that was Kim Cain or Jessica Johnson. I dealt with them during the "Savage Drop-In DBM" debacle a few years ago. That was my last dealing with PTG. Life is too short to put up with that kind of BS.
 
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