Root cause of Two group syndrome?

siscoe308

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I have several shooting ailments....last shot yips, allergic to recoil, not enough ammo-itis.....but the one that puzzles me the most is the two group syndrome.

Within a 5 shot string, I will occasionally (more often than I’d care to admit) see two distinct groups e.i. 2 rounds touching & the other three in their own lil cluster.

I will see this across platforms & calibers. I’ve always chalked it up to eye position behind the scope. Any other thoughts?
 

Danattherock

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Poor fundamentals especially recoil management. if you're not square to the rifle and the butt pads not in exactly the same spot each time your point of impact will shift.

I myself have often wondered why my zero shifts a tenth or two. 1/4 moa rifle, but zero shifts often. Just recently figured out and it was me of course.

The picture below was a few weeks ago I'm a big guy and was uncomfortable on a short bench and was open or slightly bladed to the rifle on the top group or two then squared up on the rifle but was it wasn't perfect and then at the bottom group was square and had the butt pad on my collarbone where I intended to be. Then I shot the small dot in the upper left to confirm.

The results shocked me personally. Aimed to exactly the same spot each time no adjustments done to the scope. These different groups were created by very slight variations in butt pad interaction with my shoulder.

If you only had this problem with one rifle I would suggest tweaking the seating depth because that can cause double groups. but if it's happening with multiple rifles you are the common denominator.


IMG_5588.png
 
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Racer88

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I don't usually have that issue ("2 group syndrome"). Here's my usual problem.... 4 shots good... 5th shot pulled.

300 yards:
Target-3-Group-4.jpg


But, a week ago, I had one odd group at 200 yards.

odd-5-shot-group.jpg

In the end... it's the shooter (me) making the mistakes.
 

TheGerman

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You're moving the stock and/or your shoulder (tightening up)

You're moving the rear bag which usually means the gun is sitting too high
 

Rocketmandb

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I just got back from two days of 1-on-1 training with Sean Little down in Texas. The ENTIRE TIME was spent on trigger management and building a shot cadence that is consistent and repeatable. I was amazed at how much my mediocre trigger technique was impacting my accuracy.

The impact was as clear as day on one of the last strings I shot. It was 10 shots at 500 yards. He called me out on two shots where I had my finger set incorrectly on the trigger. When we went to look, there were 4 shots essentially touching, and if I remember correctly, two more within an inch and a half or so, a couple a little farther out, then two that were way out (the ones where I wasn't doing my part). Sean has a picture of the group - when he sends, I will post. These two would be considered "flyers."
 

sea2summit

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Try a five shot string getting up from the rifle after every shot. Like walk away and start over. Do that until your groups are getting tighter then try another five round string. Every time you get back on the rifle check off all the basics, every time critique how it felt before and after the shot.
 

Pbgt

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Buy a cell phone holder and film yourself from multiple angles, do some zoomed footage on your trigger finger, both sides and from the top if possible. I film almost every time I shoot, you'd be surprised what YOU will pick out, and do not forget target pics of each shot string.....
 
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oda175365

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Have had this issue in the past- especially in semiautos. Some of the things I did to correct it:

1. Get control of the parallax. Become extremely aware of it- and adjust to minimize it. Probably the biggest issue I see among shooters- followed by induced cant.

2. Get in and out of position- and make individual shots. I.e. a five shot group and break position between each shot. This will build consistency in building your position and increase speed of building it. Most shooters settle into position over the group and see wandering.

@Danattherock and @TheGerman are also spot on with stock position and contact in the shoulder pocket- with recoil impulse could contribute to the varied groups.

In the end- you as the shooter are the biggest variable- and refining the consistency in your execution of the fundamentals will eliminate or isolate this problem to another side of the house; such as equipment
 

Precision Underground

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To add to what @Danattherock said..... one key to consistently addressing the rifle is making sure you are addressing the ground or bench the same way as well. If you are prone, connect your core to the ground. If you are propped way up on your elbows it is going to be really difficult to do it the same each time. For me my core is glued to the ground and the rifle is glued to my relaxed shoulder. As long as you do that while square and not steering it it will be very consistent.

On a bench I never sit on a stool because it’s a ridic position to shoot from IMO. I bend at the waist and go modified prone on the bench. Then I can glue my core to the bench and do the same as I would if full prone. Again, making sure not to prop up on my elbows.
 

Danattherock

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I like the modified prone idea. I'm 6'6" 320 and my fundamentals suffered till recent overhaul due to adapting my physique to fit Hobbit benches. Lol. Bent over, bladed, and seeing top portion of my Rx eyeglass frames the previous norm.
 

Precision Underground

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I like the modified prone idea. I'm 6'6" 320 and my fundamentals suffered till recent overhaul due to adapting my physique to fit Hobbit benches. Lol. Bent over, bladed, and seeing top portion of my Rx eyeglass frames the previous norm.
Yep. I loathe trying to sit on a stool to shoot. Much less if the set up was way too small!
 
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Racer88

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If you are prone, connect your core to the ground. If you are propped way up on your elbows it is going to be really difficult to do it the same each time. For me my core is glued to the ground and the rifle is glued to my relaxed shoulder.
This is a good point. I see so many shooters with their bipod legs extended and them propped way up on their elbows. That takes WORK to stay up there.

I'm like a snake on the ground. My bipod legs are extended only to the first notch (Harris 6 - 9" model). Propping up on your elbows requires the use of muscles. Laying flat on the ground requires no muscle. It's a much more relaxed position.
 
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Precision Underground

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This is a good point. I see so many shooters with their bipod legs extended and them propped way up on their elbows. That takes WORK to stay up there.

I'm like a snake on the ground. My bipod legs are extended only to the first notch (Harris). Propping up on your elbows requires the use of muscles. Laying flat on the ground requires no muscle. It's a much more relaxed position.
Yep. You can’t be a slab of meat up on your elbows. You want the rifle recoiling into the same thing every time. The only way to do that is to be dead weight on the ground.
 
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seansmd

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Interesting and conflicting information here about prone position, these recent posts saying get low off your elbows lowest setting on the bipod, classes by Frank and others saying too low is bad, causing head laying over, getting the bipod up a click or two and being more on your elbows, getting a more natural cheek weld.

Don't know what is right.....
edit:
Phil's video of what I have been trying to emulate, Frank has a similar vid in his training area.
 

Racer88

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Interesting and conflicting information here about prone position, these recent posts saying get low off your elbows lowest setting on the bipod, classes by Frank and others saying too low is bad, causing head laying over, getting the bipod up a click or two and being more on your elbows, getting a more natural cheek weld.

Don't know what is right.....
edit:
Phil's video of what I have been trying to emulate, Frank has a similar vid in his training area.
OK.... I'm not completely off my elbows. I'm using my elbows. But, I'm not supporting my entire upper torso on my elbows (like I see so often at the range). My "core" is in contact with the ground.
 
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Precision Underground

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Interesting and conflicting information here about prone position, these recent posts saying get low off your elbows lowest setting on the bipod, classes by Frank and others saying too low is bad, causing head laying over, getting the bipod up a click or two and being more on your elbows, getting a more natural cheek weld.

Don't know what is right.....
edit:
Phil's video of what I have been trying to emulate, Frank has a similar vid in his training area.
Watch his right elbow in that video. When he uses his right hand to load rounds his elbow is clearly not supporting any weight. His bipod is no more than 1 notch out.

I know the video you are talking about and I’m quite sure what @lowlight is saying is don’t lay totally flat when you shoot. You will see some new shooters do this. They almost lay ontop of the stock with the stock in the dirt.

To me the tell is where the shoulders are. If you are up on your elbows it will shrug your shoulders up. If your core is on the ground the shoulders stay neutral.
shrugged-
9101C2C6-60C0-43D3-B86C-EDEFD26B80AF.png

Neutral-
0D8AA935-5E6A-407C-AD76-9C1AF113174D.png

Your bipod height will be completely determined by your build and the terrain you are on. If you are more fluffy you will naturally be “taller” when you lay with your core on the ground because you are laying on some fluff. This will dictate a taller bipod.

Look how tall this bipod is. Do his shoulders look relaxed or tense? No way is the recoil going to move through his shoulder and into his body because his elbow is anchored to the ground with his weight on top of it. You’ll also notice people on their elbows find it nearly impossible to get square to the rifle.
5E0916D5-3F7E-4508-846D-A38DABBE2A62.png
 
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Danattherock

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Your bipod height will be completely determined by your build and the terrain you are on. If you are more fluffy you will naturally be “taller” when you lay with your core on the ground...

Absolutely. We are all different. The trick is how varying physiques can still employ solid fundamentals. That's what matters.

Phillip Velayo gave me a tip this spring that helped me tremendously. I'm 6'6" 320 and the pocket as folks call it, was a death move that set off all kinds of unintended consequences. My wide torso meant rifle was too far from head and I had to lay my head over.

He had me mount rifle on collarbone, bringing rifle much more centerline to my body. I use a Harris 9-13 with 2-3 notches out but I'm not up on my elbows, as precision underground says. There is no way I could shoot well that way.

We all need to be willing to think outside the box, especially if we are small or big, back/neck issues, unusually 'fluffy', lol. But we all need to maintain the fundamentals. We might look different in how we achieve the same thing however.


Dan
 
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seansmd

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Thanks for the clarification, I read snake like incorrectly, I have core supported and try to entire emulate Phil's and the other picture you showed of frank. I would say the bottom of my chesticles is on the ground, then a comfortable and relaxed load on the bipod and my elbows.

I need to video myself to see if I am achieving what my mind thinks it's doing. Thanks guys this helps.
 
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Racer88

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Thanks for the clarification, I read snake like incorrectly, I have core supported and try to entire emulate Phil's and the other picture you showed of frank. I would say the bottom of my chesticles is on the ground, then a comfortable and relaxed load on the bipod and my elbows.

I need to video myself to see if I am achieving what my mind thinks it's doing. Thanks guys this helps.
Yeah... I'll have to get a photo at the range next weekend.

Compared to a lot of other shooters, I'm like a snake on the ground. :) But, yeah... on my elbows, too, using my left hand on the squeeze bag. I'm fluffier than I'd like to be, but I'm not fluffy... don't have a gut in the way, really. But, yeah... physique can make a difference.

Chuckled at "chesticles." :ROFLMAO:
 
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Precision Underground

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Another huge key to avoiding 2GS is NPA. Once you do get in the right position with your core connected to the ground, you have to make sure that when you pull into your shoulder the reticle is on target with NO steering. It’s very easy to steer it a bit and not know it. It is counterintuitive NOT to steer it.

When I line up I am pulling with an absolutely isolated bicep, straight back into a relaxed shoulder. As I do this I am watching the reticle come off target as I pull in to connect the rifle to me. I will make tiny adjustments with my feet and hips so that straight back pull leaves me on target. You can see me do that here. I have my mat lined up to the target so that gets me close but then watch my feet and hips as I get ready to fire. First big adjustments and then really small. I never realized I did this until I filmed with a drone.

I am pulling straight in and not getting the sight picture I want so I am adjusting my feet/hips to get on target. New shooters will use their shoulders and strong hand/arm to steer it to the target. Think of it like you are a piece of field artillery. When an adjustment is needed do they bend support bars or change the angles of the barrel on the frame? No. They turn and move the whole system. Your feet and hips are the wheels on the artillery. Move them to change the aim of the system. The trick is to know that you have the system put together properly so you can move it. Core connected to ground(not propped up), body straight in line with the rifle, and pulling straight into a relaxed shoulder are three big keys to having the system put together properly. There are def more but those are my main three.
 

Diver160651

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Another huge key to avoiding 2GS is NPA. Once you do get in the right position with your core connected to the ground, you have to make sure that when you pull into your shoulder the reticle is on target with NO steering. It’s very easy to steer it a bit and not know it. It is counterintuitive NOT to steer it.

When I line up I am pulling with an absolutely isolated bicep, straight back into a relaxed shoulder. As I do this I am watching the reticle come off target as I pull in to connect the rifle to me. I will make tiny adjustments with my feet and hips so that straight back pull leaves me on target. You can see me do that here. I have my mat lined up to the target so that gets me close but then watch my feet and hips as I get ready to fire. First big adjustments and then really small. I never realized I did this until I filmed with a drone.

I am pulling straight in and not getting the sight picture I want so I am adjusting my feet/hips to get on target. New shooters will use their shoulders and strong hand/arm to steer it to the target. Think of it like you are a piece of field artillery. When an adjustment is needed do they bend support bars or change the angles of the barrel on the frame? No. They turn and move the whole system. Your feet and hips are the wheels on the artillery. Move them to change the aim of the system. The trick is to know that you have the system put together properly so you can move it. Core connected to ground(not propped up), body straight in line with the rifle, and pulling straight into a relaxed shoulder are three big keys to having the system put together properly. There are def more but those are my main three.
You're a big strong guy.. I'd cycle the bolt with a bit less muscle and more finesse and stay on target/
 

Iwillylike2shoot

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I have the same problem. I can shot two really nice groups with 5 shots and if I cover one up with a dime they make great social media pictures.

To improve I have been shooting the dot drill one shot per dot. Get into position, check yourself, make a shot, repeat. I have some work left but it seems to be helping.

I started doing this after I heard @CaylenW talk bout constancy drills on the instructors corner.
 
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Precision Underground

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You're a big strong guy.. I'd cycle the bolt with a bit less muscle and more finesse and stay on target/
That is a glorified Rem 700 action running 300 Norma Mag that has a cerakoted bolt. You need a lil muscle to run it lol. I know I'll def never have another bolt cerakoted. It stayed on target though. That's the great thing about what I am saying. Once you get set like this the rifle wants to be on the target so you don't have to do much to keep it there.
 
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Jack Master

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Here is an earlier post with a fella asking the same question and the response I gave him there. its long but through - These are the first 3 of 16
http://forum.snipershide.com/threads/help-with-groupings-id-fundemental-errors.6961811/#post-8038264


Fundamentals checklist
1. Parallax - Are you shooting a scope with adjustable parrallax? if its not adjusted for the distance this could happen.
2. Cheek weld - are you picking your head up between shots to run the bolt? If so, don't. Keep your face in the gun.
3. Sight picture - are you looking straight through the scope every time? if you're breaking your cheek weld you might be changing your sight picture.
 

wade2big

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Watch his right elbow in that video. When he uses his right hand to load rounds his elbow is clearly not supporting any weight. His bipod is no more than 1 notch out.

I know the video you are talking about and I’m quite sure what @lowlight is saying is don’t lay totally flat when you shoot. You will see some new shooters do this. They almost lay ontop of the stock with the stock in the dirt.

To me the tell is where the shoulders are. If you are up on your elbows it will shrug your shoulders up. If your core is on the ground the shoulders stay neutral.
shrugged-
View attachment 7181120

Neutral-
View attachment 7181121

Your bipod height will be completely determined by your build and the terrain you are on. If you are more fluffy you will naturally be “taller” when you lay with your core on the ground because you are laying on some fluff. This will dictate a taller bipod.

Look how tall this bipod is. Do his shoulders look relaxed or tense? No way is the recoil going to move through his shoulder and into his body because his elbow is anchored to the ground with his weight on top of it. You’ll also notice people on their elbows find it nearly impossible to get square to the rifle.
View attachment 7181130
To be fair, the last picture is a shooter shooting in field conditions. Getting the shot off however possible is practical shooting. Prone shooting is not very practical in the real world the majority of the time.

I do understand The pic is an example of what you were explaining which I went a little beyond. I wasn’t picking at you.