Old school shooting vs today's technology

motorcycleboy

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Yes , i think there will be a device in the very near future that will be able to give a wind solution. , but then again I think the world is a flat and Epstien DID kill himself !!
A lot of variables. Wind mapping out to 500 yards accurately will be a leap forward for sure if is accurate. It still does nothing to eliminate the shooter, only make each one more capable of longer and smaller shots. As has been the case of every innovation since the invention of the firearm? Pick a disciple that represents the era of shooting you like. Some like to be on the pinnacle of current times, some like to shoot iron sights only. A shit ton of shooting falls in between. If you think the shooter is irrelevant and a person can buy their way, you are comparing apples to oranges. Can you buy your way to shooting better at 600 yards than the cmp garand guys? Yes. Can you buy your way to shooting better than good ERL and PRS shooters? Hell no
 

motorcycleboy

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So I guess I should have just gave the short answer to the question if technology has made the shooter irrelevant? absolutely not. It has only made them more capable, just like every other advance in firearms from powder to bullets to sights and now computers.
 

MTS308

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I'm relatively new to long range shooting but have been shooting all my life. I shot my first prs match last September and the first thing I noticed was a vast majority were using way more equipment than I thought was needed. Shooters were running arca rails with barricade stops ,2 or 3 bags each stage and arca multi plates and it seemed to me most guys spend more time getting Thierry crap together than shooting.
Funniest thing I have seen at a match was a stage where you shoot 5 shots at a magnum popper at 350yards. 2 shots off a bar on top of the barricade 1 shot off a strap underneath the barricade and 2 off the top again. Rifle stock must touch the strap. No bags allowed on the strap. 60 seconds. Guy steps up and try's to use a tripod with a multi plate and game changer bag for a rear support. When he finally gets in position he misses the first shot then times out. Next guy up shoots off the barricade with no bags period. Just the rifle resting on the barricade and hits 5 times in 20 seconds. Laughed my ass off. My point is guy 1 was relying on equipment for the stage. Guy 2 didn't need it. He just stepped up and got the job done. Seems there are very few true shooters out there and my personal belief why is because rather than learn to shoot. Most people take the easy road and buy stuff they really dont need. My 2 cents. Take it with a grain of salt.
 

Culpeper

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Flying by steam gauges isn't as accurate but you still have to learn it or you might find yourself SOL.
 

motorcycleboy

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I'm relatively new to long range shooting but have been shooting all my life. I shot my first prs match last September and the first thing I noticed was a vast majority were using way more equipment than I thought was needed. Shooters were running arca rails with barricade stops ,2 or 3 bags each stage and arca multi plates and it seemed to me most guys spend more time getting Thierry crap together than shooting.
Funniest thing I have seen at a match was a stage where you shoot 5 shots at a magnum popper at 350yards. 2 shots off a bar on top of the barricade 1 shot off a strap underneath the barricade and 2 off the top again. Rifle stock must touch the strap. No bags allowed on the strap. 60 seconds. Guy steps up and try's to use a tripod with a multi plate and game changer bag for a rear support. When he finally gets in position he misses the first shot then times out. Next guy up shoots off the barricade with no bags period. Just the rifle resting on the barricade and hits 5 times in 20 seconds. Laughed my ass off. My point is guy 1 was relying on equipment for the stage. Guy 2 didn't need it. He just stepped up and got the job done. Seems there are very few true shooters out there and my personal belief why is because rather than learn to shoot. Most people take the easy road and buy stuff they really dont need. My 2 cents. Take it with a grain of salt.
So all those bags, barricade stops, plates and tripod didn’t make the shooter irrelevant?
 

motorcycleboy

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What's your definition of irrelevant?
The the more or better equipment meant more hits? It sounds like your experience would have taught you it’s not about more gadgets etc. it’s about the shooter. At least that’s what I got out of your story.
 

forrestgump01

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So all those bags, barricade stops, plates and tripod didn’t make the shooter irrelevant?
My original post was simple ...........
I said we are on a trend towards technology that is making the shooter irrelevant, .......... meaning at some point , with enough technology , the only thing the shooter will have to do is to basically pull the trigger with no real input from your brain, all of the math will be done with gear.
why is what I'm saying , so hard for some to grasp
there is no doubt you have to have a certain amount of equipment to get the job done , but at what point is all that gear doing the job for you. ????
 

MTS308

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The the more or better equipment meant more hits? It sounds like your experience would have taught you it’s not about more gadgets etc. it’s about the shooter. At least that’s what I got out of your story.
Yes definitely. I learned that day the gadgets didn't help that guy at all. My respect goes to the very few guys who can shoot a match with nothing but 1 bag and a bipod and don't need all the rest of it.
 

Long Range 338

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And I’m sure the guys chasing LR hits 20 years before you would say the same of your setup? Having a kestrel in your hand for a true LR shot is going to help someone who is not an expert useing one how much? Even if you cold figure out the wind where your standing and it’s direction, how much will that help if you know nothing about figuring the rest of the wind equation?
No, I think not. I started with a varmint rifle with a heavy barrel and hunting scope, not even a bipod.... The forums were not there, let alone what they are today. Wind wasn't even the main factor as dope wasn't nailed down (only ranges were out to 500 meters). As if the kestrel was the greatest thing to ever come along.

If you would take the time to read my posts and then enough time to consider what I'm driving at you would understand that I'm probably making the same point you are trying to make. The shooter IS the most important part of the equation, hence the reason I am beating down on the DEPENDENCE on technology. Tech is great, it makes our lives easier and the learning curve much shorter. I never said we should go back to shooting black powder because it was the best ever.

Use all the tech you want, I personally want to develop myself as a shooter to be the most capable, well rounded version of me that I can be. If my phone is dead, my kestrel is broke, my super duper bags and bipod are back at camp, what the hell ever scenario I wish to dream up - I still want to be capable of making shots. I believe I detailed this out pretty well in my first post about the "art" of long range and I imagine it to be a lifelong education. If you think you have all the knowledge that is needed wrapped up in your kestrel and bags, rock on I'll keep working on the fundamentals and watching the grass blow in the wind...
 

forrestgump01

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No, I think not. I started with a varmint rifle with a heavy barrel and hunting scope, not even a bipod.... The forums were not there, let alone what they are today. Wind wasn't even the main factor as dope wasn't nailed down (only ranges were out to 500 meters). As if the kestrel was the greatest thing to ever come along.

If you would take the time to read my posts and then enough time to consider what I'm driving at you would understand that I'm probably making the same point you are trying to make. The shooter IS the most important part of the equation, hence the reason I am beating down on the DEPENDENCE on technology. Tech is great, it makes our lives easier and the learning curve much shorter. I never said we should go back to shooting black powder because it was the best ever.

Use all the tech you want, I personally want to develop myself as a shooter to be the most capable, well rounded version of me that I can be. If my phone is dead, my kestrel is broke, my super duper bags and bipod are back at camp, what the hell ever scenario I wish to dream up - I still want to be capable of making shots. I believe I detailed this out pretty well in my first post about the "art" of long range and I imagine it to be a lifelong education. If you think you have all the knowledge that is needed wrapped up in your kestrel and bags, rock on I'll keep working on the fundamentals and watching the grass blow in the wind...
couldn't have said it any better , exactly what I was thinking.
 

MTS308

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No, I think not. I started with a varmint rifle with a heavy barrel and hunting scope, not even a bipod.... The forums were not there, let alone what they are today. Wind wasn't even the main factor as dope wasn't nailed down (only ranges were out to 500 meters). As if the kestrel was the greatest thing to ever come along.

If you would take the time to read my posts and then enough time to consider what I'm driving at you would understand that I'm probably making the same point you are trying to make. The shooter IS the most important part of the equation, hence the reason I am beating down on the DEPENDENCE on technology. Tech is great, it makes our lives easier and the learning curve much shorter. I never said we should go back to shooting black powder because it was the best ever.

Use all the tech you want, I personally want to develop myself as a shooter to be the most capable, well rounded version of me that I can be. If my phone is dead, my kestrel is broke, my super duper bags and bipod are back at camp, what the hell ever scenario I wish to dream up - I still want to be capable of making shots. I believe I detailed this out pretty well in my first post about the "art" of long range and I imagine it to be a lifelong education. If you think you have all the knowledge that is needed wrapped up in your kestrel and bags, rock on I'll keep working on the fundamentals and watching the grass blow in the wind...
This is exactly what I was trying to say in my post. I'm just not smart enough to put it on the page.
 

steve123

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I'm relatively new to long range shooting but have been shooting all my life. I shot my first prs match last September and the first thing I noticed was a vast majority were using way more equipment than I thought was needed. Shooters were running arca rails with barricade stops ,2 or 3 bags each stage and arca multi plates and it seemed to me most guys spend more time getting Thierry crap together than shooting.
Funniest thing I have seen at a match was a stage where you shoot 5 shots at a magnum popper at 350yards. 2 shots off a bar on top of the barricade 1 shot off a strap underneath the barricade and 2 off the top again. Rifle stock must touch the strap. No bags allowed on the strap. 60 seconds. Guy steps up and try's to use a tripod with a multi plate and game changer bag for a rear support. When he finally gets in position he misses the first shot then times out. Next guy up shoots off the barricade with no bags period. Just the rifle resting on the barricade and hits 5 times in 20 seconds. Laughed my ass off. My point is guy 1 was relying on equipment for the stage. Guy 2 didn't need it. He just stepped up and got the job done. Seems there are very few true shooters out there and my personal belief why is because rather than learn to shoot. Most people take the easy road and buy stuff they really dont need. My 2 cents. Take it with a grain of salt.
I think in your example here, part of the problem with the guy that timed out was a lack of experience "gaming" the stage. He didn't realize that in 60 seconds he couldn't deploy the tripod and get set up fast enough.

I'm guessing that the guy that got all 5 hit's is very experienced in the PRS match gaming aspect, already knew that 60 seconds wasn't enough time to deploy the tripod, and was a very good shot as well.

If the stage were 90 or 120 seconds the more experienced shooter would have probably used the tripod?? And the other guy would have likely done much better, possibly cleaning the stage too.

Everybody has weaknesses and strengths. It could be the other way around in the very next stage. Me as an example, I'm a strong offhand shooter but a poor kneeling shooter. I've won offhand stages but finished way down a stage when kneeling.

One time we had a KYL dot stage, you could try a tiny dot at 11Y, or shoot 50Y at a slightly larger dot, or a larger dot at 75Y, or slightly larger at 100Y. Pick whichever but the farther away you shot the dots they were worth less points, and of course if you missed you were DRT. Having had a ton of "experience" shooting that close with air rifles I knew I could easily hit the 11Y dot, I and another guy tied for high score because we both hit the 11Y dot, for me it was a 4.2 mil holdover. Everyone else was afraid to even try the 11Y dot.

I can look back after almost every stage, and think, man if I'd done this or that differently!!!
 

motorcycleboy

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If you think you have all the knowledge that is needed wrapped up in your kestrel and bags, rock on I'll keep working on the fundamentals and watching the grass blow in the wind...
[/QUOTE]
Did you know you could learn both and will need to to be a great long range shooter in these modern times?
 

MTS308

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I think in your example here, part of the problem with the guy that timed out was a lack of experience "gaming" the stage. He didn't realize that in 60 seconds he couldn't deploy the tripod and get set up fast enough.

I'm guessing that the guy that got all 5 hit's is very experienced in the PRS match gaming aspect, already knew that 60 seconds wasn't enough time to deploy the tripod, and was a very good shot as well.

If the stage were 90 or 120 seconds the more experienced shooter would have probably used the tripod?? And the other guy would have likely done much better, possibly cleaning the stage too.

Everybody has weaknesses and strengths. It could be the other way around in the very next stage. Me as an example, I'm a strong offhand shooter but a poor kneeling shooter. I've won offhand stages but finished way down a stage when kneeling.

One time we had a KYL dot stage, you could try a tiny dot at 11Y, or shoot 50Y at a slightly larger dot, or a larger dot at 75Y, or slightly larger at 100Y. Pick whichever but the farther away you shot the dots they were worth less points, and of course if you missed you were DRT. Having had a ton of "experience" shooting that close with air rifles I knew I could easily hit the 11Y dot, I and another guy tied for high score because we both hit the 11Y dot, for me it was a 4.2 mil holdover. Everyone else was afraid to even try the 11Y dot.

I can look back after almost every stage, and think, man if I'd done this or that differently!!!
Experience and training definitely counts for something. Maybe the guy would have been better off without the tripod and maybe not. Maybe it was something he thought he'd try to see if it works. Idk. All I can say for sure is if you don't need all the equipment to shoot well in a match why buy it. it's kinda limited ke the gunsmith who built my rifle told me. "Find a cartridge and stick with it. Don't go chasing the new wildcat cartridge every season. Pick a cartridge, a particular bullet and shoot the hell out of it until you know it like the back of your hand. " that has been sound advice so far that I've tried to apply to every thing.
 

Racer88

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Experience and training definitely counts for something. Maybe the guy would have been better off without the tripod and maybe not. Maybe it was something he thought he'd try to see if it works. Idk. All I can say for sure is if you don't need all the equipment to shoot well in a match why buy it. it's kinda limited ke the gunsmith who built my rifle told me. "Find a cartridge and stick with it. Don't go chasing the new wildcat cartridge every season. Pick a cartridge, a particular bullet and shoot the hell out of it until you know it like the back of your hand. " that has been sound advice so far that I've tried to apply to every thing.
That reminds me of a quote from Bruce Lee that goes something like....

"I don't fear the man who has practiced 10,000 kicks. I fear the man who has practiced one kick 10,000 times."
 

Long Range 338

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If you think you have all the knowledge that is needed wrapped up in your kestrel and bags, rock on I'll keep working on the fundamentals and watching the grass blow in the wind...
Did you know you could learn both and will need to to be a great long range shooter in these modern times?
[/QUOTE]

yes and if you bothered to read my posts you would understand that.
 

IronmanDaremo

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As a brand new shooter in the LR world, I am trying to soak it all in. I read tons on here, I watch Lowlight's videos (and others), I bought one of Ryan Cleckner's books, and I try to get to the range and work on what everyone says are the fundamentals. I think in the 4 months or so I've been shooting, I've gotten pretty consistent and okay at it and it seems pretty "easy." I've shot as small as a .32 MOA 5-shot group at 100 yards with factory ELD-M ammo and a mass production-level gun (RPR), and I'm averaging around .8 MOA overall for my groups each time out. But I've only gotten out to 200 yards with my local range.

The true telling will be to go out longer. I'll get my first taste of that in March when I go to one of the Frontier days at PNTC in WV. I'll be able to try and stretch out to 1000 yards. I have a LRF that should be good out to that distance, and a wind meter that ties into the two different ballistic apps, so I can verify distances and get a solution. And you know what? I fully expect to miss a bunch! Because I have little experience with the wind, and in general, my actual elevation dials have not matched with what the apps say they should be for each distance. But I am excited to get out there and learn and see what it will take to learn the rifle.ammo in real conditions at better distances.

Technology will always give someone an edge. But if the tech is not fully understood, accurate, or applied using the basics required to do a task well, it doesn't amount to a hill of beans. I love the Miata/Ferrari analogy. Same thing with cycling. A professional rider can take a 25 lb. bike with downtube shifters and still crush the elite amateur with a 14 lb. one with a power meter, disc breaks, and electronic shifting.
 

Steel head

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I see this in fly casting competitions

lots of people buy rods and lines hoping for an advantage instead of doing a focused and efficient practice routine.

I can’t tell you how many hours I’ve practiced the single spey cast but I’m sure if I had a dollar for each cast I could buy a couple AI’s and scopes for them.


None of my rifles shoot worth a damn unless I do my part properly regardless of what bag or bipod I’m using
 
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cmoore806

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I suppose Im going to just throw bullets at the paper with my hand. The technology is the whole reason behind the sport. If we're going to discuss what level of technology, that's just a preference. At the end of the day it shouldn't bother us so long as the person didn't vote for Hillary.