NRL22 rifle setup questions

irishman

Private
Minuteman
May 17, 2019
7
0
2
I just shot my first NRL22 match, and I'm already planning for my next match. That was a blast!

I have a few questions for those more versed in this sport than me.

My current rifle is a feddersen 10/22 barrel and their receiver. Seems like unless you're using this event as a trainer event for the PRS series, that a 10/22 based rifle is fine and maybe even an advantage for many of the stages. Am I missing something here? Seemed like I had more time because I wasn't wasting some time cycling my bolt and getting out of position.

My rifle shoots well, but I didn't think my scope or stock were matched to the task very well.

Do most people go with a chassis stock for their 10/22 receiver for this game? Or is something like the Mcmillan A5-22 better? My current stock is a hogue and I didn't like the ergonomics for this type of shooting very much.

For the scope, I currently run a regular duplex reticle, and while its fine for plunking, I think I'd like something with a mil reticle. Any recommendations for the $500-$1000 price range? I've got nice scopes on centerfire rifles, but until I decide to invest much more in this event, I can't see putting a tier 1 scope on it yet. Looking for something FFP and assuming something in the 4-16 range would be ideal but I'd like any advice you have to offer. I'm not loyal to any brand of scope.

Thanks for your help.
 

MDrimfirerookie

Sergeant of the Hide
Belligerents
Minuteman
i'll chime in on the glass part of the equation. there are lots of options in your price point. i'd consider something with a little higher end magnification since the nrl22 stages are notorious for those itty bitty targets and having the paper stage. also, whatever you get make sure it has adjustable parallax down to at least 25 yards.

i'm sure you are gonna get a bunch of recommendations. here is mine - i have an athlon midas tac. i love it and would highly recommend it.

reach out to Doug at CameraLand he is a big supporter of the hide and let him know what you are looking for.
 

jbpmidas

Sergeant
Belligerents
Mar 23, 2013
196
4
22
North Mississippi
I run a Feddersen barrel on a BRN 10/22. I use a Magpul stock, although I think I’d go with a Victor Titan if I redid it. For glass, I got in on the Ares BTR for $549. I’ve been pleased with it so far.
 

Mech_eng

Private
Hessian
Minuteman
Jan 18, 2019
25
20
6
I started shooting NRL22 about this time last year. I’m running an anschutz bolt gun but I think there is a lot of merit to a semi as it does offer some advantages.

I personally don’t use over 14x most of the time(scope is 5-20). I will second parallax down to 25yds, it’s nice to have equipment that suits the game you are playing.
As far as stocks, it’s users preference. Chassis are excellent for their adjustability. That McMillan looks sweet too though! You will definitely want scope a reticle with substensions that you can use to hold over with. First focal plane is nice but not necessary if you know what you are doing. I would also go Mil over MOA adjustments just because that’s what everyone else is shooting. Sometimes it is better to hold over with your scope reticle instead of dialing due to time constraints. Holding over sounds simple but is a good thing to practice! If I were you, I would upgrade my stock and scope and then spend my money on ammo! More matches will help you better understand what you want/need. Happy shooting
 

Eoddave27

Staff Sergeant
Belligerents
Minuteman
Jan 9, 2018
592
392
69
44
Bel Air, MD
I would say your best bang for the buck will be the Victor Titan for a chassis and A Midas Tac for your scope. The Midas Tac is about as close as you can get to a perfect NRL22 scope. The glass is fantastic for the price, it has a good reticle, great tuttets, a capped windage turret and parallax down to 10 yds. As stated above give Doug a call, not an email, an actual call and he will take care of you. He takes really good care of the guys from the Hide.
 

hlee

Sergeant
Belligerents
Jul 14, 2012
1,918
1,261
219
41
TX
I’ve got a vortex viper pst 6-24x50 FFP scope on my Kidd Supergrade. Unlike a centerfire match where I rarely go over 10x, I find that I use the max mag a lot more in 22lr comp.
 
  • Like
Reactions: RS14

littlepod

Newbie
Online Training Access
Belligerents
Oct 16, 2012
488
239
49
Kirkland, WA
+1 on the Athlon Midas Tac. I would have gotten that one, but decided on the Ares ETR to have the same scope as my centerfire.

I wish they made more chassis for the 10/22. I would buy a KRG Bravo for the 10/22 in a heartbeat. I need an adjustable cheek rest and there just aren't that many options. The Victor Titan has some screw on cheek pieces to get to the right height. Also the Magpul Hunter X22, but I think the titan is a better fit.

I just purchased the Ruger Competition 10/22 for the fiance for NRL22 to see how she likes it.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Michael Victor

DFOOSKING

SoDak Cat
Belligerents
Jan 31, 2009
3,480
65
154
Iceshack Village, Buttfuck Nowhere
I'd do the titan stock. And a scope with a 4-14 power... 1 inch or 30mm tube....and 40mm objective. A finely delineated reticle. 25yd parallax. Exposed turrets that match reticle.

Want the ability to mount a bipod and sling easily. The extra action screw is a bonus.

Athlon products do not impress me from a reliability standpoint.

Have had 4 cross my path. 3 have had to go back for repairs in very short time of use.

Do like the features they provide and don't mind reticle layout.

Having a semi is definite advantage when you have to do alot of transitions along multiple positions/barricades.

And 10/22 mags are fast to swap out if you have a stove pipe or failure to fire which will leave likely shucking a good round on the ground or being a round short on 10 round stage.

Downside is the factory bolt release sucks. Somebody makes a part that allows the bolt to snap closed just by tugging on it instead of fighting the toggle.
 
Last edited:

JaoeyP

Sergeant of the Hide
Belligerents
Minuteman
Nov 28, 2018
179
68
34
I started shooting NRL22 late last year and am hooked. I tried a few different scopes that I'd had on my center-fire rifles and ended up buying a gen II Viper PST 5-25x50 with their mil EBR-2C FFP. I usually keep the magnification in the 8-12x range, but occasionally crank it up to try and hit some of the tiny targets. I really like the scope for NRL22. Also, I like that with the ammo I shoot, my dope works out to zero at 50 yards, .9 mil at 75 yards, and 2.1 mil at 100 yards. I usually just hold and it's easy to remember, 1 mil at 75, 2 mil at 100. Parallax goes down to 25 yards. I adjust my parallax during a stage more than my magnification. I really think it's a great scope for NRL22, combines decent optics, good parallax range, and good reticle.
 

accurate obsession

Private
Belligerents
Aug 8, 2017
64
16
12
Since you won't pony up for a NF ATACR, LOL, I'll just have to say the Vortex genII Viper PST 5-25 absolutely checks all the boxes for use on your NRL rifle.
 

irishman

Private
Minuteman
May 17, 2019
7
0
2
I can't imagine an ATACR on a 10/22....It'd be as big as the rifle!

I absolutely appreciate everyone's feedback thus far.

I have a Viper PST Gen II 5-25 on another gun I could run on this for now...eventually I'd like to put something permanent on this gun though. Sounds like everyone likes the Midas Tac quite a bit with a few folks who like the PST Gen II. Anyone tried both? Curious if there's much of a difference between them for this application. It appears to me like the Midas Tac might be a tad smaller and that's appealing since it's going on a 10/22. The PST Gen II is a good scope but it's not a "compact" scope either. Maybe that's just a perception thing on my end though.
 

littlepod

Newbie
Online Training Access
Belligerents
Oct 16, 2012
488
239
49
Kirkland, WA
Tac is a tad smaller and lighter and cheaper. Glass is comparable, turrets are a little nicer. 10 yard parallax. $540ish street price, with the PST being $700?
 

JaoeyP

Sergeant of the Hide
Belligerents
Minuteman
Nov 28, 2018
179
68
34
I can't imagine an ATACR on a 10/22....It'd be as big as the rifle!

I absolutely appreciate everyone's feedback thus far.

I have a Viper PST Gen II 5-25 on another gun I could run on this for now...eventually I'd like to put something permanent on this gun though. Sounds like everyone likes the Midas Tac quite a bit with a few folks who like the PST Gen II. Anyone tried both? Curious if there's much of a difference between them for this application. It appears to me like the Midas Tac might be a tad smaller and that's appealing since it's going on a 10/22. The PST Gen II is a good scope but it's not a "compact" scope either. Maybe that's just a perception thing on my end though.
I have the GII Viper on my CZ, my buddy has the Midas Tac on his Tikka. Won't speak to differences in turrets because I feel like the "feel" of a turret is so subjective. At the mag range and distance we shoot I can't tell a difference in glass. His only complaint on his Midas is he feels like the parallax on his is a little unforgiving.
 

generalzip

Sergeant
Belligerents
Jun 30, 2010
1,679
439
189
29
Houston, tx
I haven't shot a NRL22 match but my trainer 22 is a Anschutz 64 MPR and a schimdt 5-25 (same as my PRS scope) in ARC rings. Seems to be a decent setup, just need to find an ammo it really likes.
 

billmeek

Sergeant of the Hide
Belligerents
Minuteman
Jan 26, 2019
391
172
49
Middle TN
I have three 10/22 rifles (and several other non-10/22s) for shooting NRL22. My favorite rifle overall for NRL22 is in a Victor Titan stock and uses at Athlon Midas TAC 6-24×50 APRS3 FFP MIL scope:



While it now has a Proof Research barrel on it, the previous Feddersen barrel is damned close to the same accuracy and a whole lot less expensive.

I also have another setup in a Kidd chassis using the Athlon Ares BTR 4.5-27×50 APLR3 FFP IR MIL scope. I'll likely be selling the scope (local) and replacing it with another Midas TAC. The chassis is OK, but I just prefer the Victor Titan ergonomics although the LUTH-AR MBA-3 on the chassis has a lot more adjustability.

They are not inexpensive, but one of the best upgrades you can add is the Kidd 2-stage trigger. I personally prefer the trigger set to 8 oz/8 oz giving you a total 1 pound pull. I've bought a Kidd 2-stage trigger for every 10/22 I own. Two are set at 8/8 and I have one currently set at 3/3 which is likely going to be sent back to Kidd for them to readjust it to 8/8 to match the other rifles. Kidd will change the pull for the cost of shipping alone.
 

littlepod

Newbie
Online Training Access
Belligerents
Oct 16, 2012
488
239
49
Kirkland, WA
I have three 10/22 rifles (and several other non-10/22s) for shooting NRL22. My favorite rifle overall for NRL22 is in a Victor Titan stock and uses at Athlon Midas TAC 6-24×50 APRS3 FFP MIL scope:



While it now has a Proof Research barrel on it, the previous Feddersen barrel is damned close to the same accuracy and a whole lot less expensive.

I also have another setup in a Kidd chassis using the Athlon Ares BTR 4.5-27×50 APLR3 FFP IR MIL scope. I'll likely be selling the scope (local) and replacing it with another Midas TAC. The chassis is OK, but I just prefer the Victor Titan ergonomics although the LUTH-AR MBA-3 on the chassis has a lot more adjustability.

They are not inexpensive, but one of the best upgrades you can add is the Kidd 2-stage trigger. I personally prefer the trigger set to 8 oz/8 oz giving you a total 1 pound pull. I've bought a Kidd 2-stage trigger for every 10/22 I own. Two are set at 8/8 and I have one currently set at 3/3 which is likely going to be sent back to Kidd for them to readjust it to 8/8 to match the other rifles. Kidd will change the pull for the cost of shipping alone.
Why the change from the BTR to the Midas TAC?
 

Eoddave27

Staff Sergeant
Belligerents
Minuteman
Jan 9, 2018
592
392
69
44
Bel Air, MD
The Midas has a better elevation turret and a capped windage turret. Spin that windage turret at one match and you will be a believer. I have had two friends do that. All my competition scopes either have locking windage turrets or capped windage turrets.
 

billmeek

Sergeant of the Hide
Belligerents
Minuteman
Jan 26, 2019
391
172
49
Middle TN
Why the change from the BTR to the Midas TAC?
For me it's the feel of the turrets. The BTR is way to soft where the Midas TAC has distinct clicks. It may not mean a whole lot to many people, but for those of us that have to wear reading glasses being able to dial by feel is important. I also prefer the target dot of the Midas TAC for NRL22.
 

littlepod

Newbie
Online Training Access
Belligerents
Oct 16, 2012
488
239
49
Kirkland, WA
For me it's the feel of the turrets. The BTR is way to soft where the Midas TAC has distinct clicks. It may not mean a whole lot to many people, but for those of us that have to wear reading glasses being able to dial by feel is important. I also prefer the target dot of the Midas TAC for NRL22.
+1 on the target dot. I just swapped my BTR for an ETR.

The BTR, if you remove the O-Rings, you should get a more tactile feel. ETR and Midas Tac have the same turrets and the ETR is still more tactile even with the BTR's O-rings removed.
 

OLD308

Sergeant of the Hide
Belligerents
Minuteman
Jun 8, 2018
414
232
49
Clarks Custom 10/22 complete build.
Boyds stock for the weight, the Titan was just to light for me.
PST Gen 2 5-25.

I have never lost a match due to being out gunned. Yes, with the semi you save time. There is no precision or accuracy advantage to the bolt guns, per our application. The top shooters find their placing due to ammo, not the rifles. No matter how much you pay or how many you bought, rimfire ammo has a mind of its own. For NRL 22, if your gaming the event your running a 10/22. If your using it to practices NRL/PRS, RPR, Vudoo, etc. Hope this helps.
 

Michael Victor

Victor Company USA
Commercial Supporter
Belligerents
Aug 19, 2006
1,712
103
169
SOCAL USA
www.victorcompanyusa.com
I have three 10/22 rifles (and several other non-10/22s) for shooting NRL22. My favorite rifle overall for NRL22 is in a Victor Titan stock and uses at Athlon Midas TAC 6-24×50 APRS3 FFP MIL scope:



While it now has a Proof Research barrel on it, the previous Feddersen barrel is damned close to the same accuracy and a whole lot less expensive.

I also have another setup in a Kidd chassis using the Athlon Ares BTR 4.5-27×50 APLR3 FFP IR MIL scope. I'll likely be selling the scope (local) and replacing it with another Midas TAC. The chassis is OK, but I just prefer the Victor Titan ergonomics although the LUTH-AR MBA-3 on the chassis has a lot more adjustability.

They are not inexpensive, but one of the best upgrades you can add is the Kidd 2-stage trigger. I personally prefer the trigger set to 8 oz/8 oz giving you a total 1 pound pull. I've bought a Kidd 2-stage trigger for every 10/22 I own. Two are set at 8/8 and I have one currently set at 3/3 which is likely going to be sent back to Kidd for them to readjust it to 8/8 to match the other rifles. Kidd will change the pull for the cost of shipping alone.

I think this sums it up!
 

reubenski

First Sergeant
Belligerents
Jun 8, 2008
2,050
1,349
219
39
Colorado Springs, CO
I've owned both the PST G2 and the Midas TAC. There is no comparison in glass, the G2 was so bad I sold it.

As far as semi vs bolt this is my opinion. The triggers and firing mechanism on a 10/22 doesn't compare to a bolt gun.
Same with feeding, across the board on a large sample of rifles. Not the, " ...but my PMC 10/22 has 300,000 rds on it and it never once had a feeding issue..." anedoctal one-offs, but in comparison of platforms.
I can set up a a Vudoo and a CZ to facilitate the same technique and application of fundamentals I use on my CF rifles. A modicum of custom working would have to be executed to add weight to a 10/22 shooting a Titan stock. For these reasons bolt gun is just going to be more shootable off barricades and bags.

And here's a caveat to the gained efficiency of a semi specifically a 10/22. I was watching a guy shoot a stage with his 10/22 at the last club match and it occurred to me while watching that he wasn't putting his rifle on safe while breaking position. I called out to him that he needed to use his safety but he either didn't hear me or pretended not to. I wondered how much a PITA it would be use that cross bolt safety. And I wonder how many other semi shooters are also taking that shortcut. And how much actually having to use might diminish their perception of speed they gain in not having to work a bolt.
 

jbpmidas

Sergeant
Belligerents
Mar 23, 2013
196
4
22
North Mississippi
I do use the safety on my 10/22 when moving. It’s a training/practice issue. To me, it’s faster than moving with bolt back on a bolt gun. I engage the safety with my left hand just before I pick the bag and front of the rifle up. As soon as I set the rifle into the next position, my trigger finger disengages it as I move into firing position.

The initial problem was the habit of not using a safety on my 700 or CZ455. A few practice stages focusing on the safety pretty much lined that issue out.
 

billmeek

Sergeant of the Hide
Belligerents
Minuteman
Jan 26, 2019
391
172
49
Middle TN
I was watching a guy shoot a stage with his 10/22 at the last club match and it occurred to me while watching that he wasn't putting his rifle on safe while breaking position. I called out to him that he needed to use his safety but he either didn't hear me or pretended not to. I wondered how much a PITA it would be use that cross bolt safety. And I wonder how many other semi shooters are also taking that shortcut. And how much actually having to use might diminish their perception of speed they gain in not having to work a bolt.
At our NRL22 matches (as per the NRL22 rules) you are required to put a semi-auto safety and call "SAFE" loud enough where the Range Officers can hear it. If you don't call safe, then you must put it on safe, move back to the prior position, and do the transition again. This also applies to leaving your bolt open too. If you get hit for time by having to go back to the prior position, you learn real quick to use the safety and call it. I know since it happened to me twice right when I changed from a bolt gun to the 10/22. One of the times I did use the safety, but just didn't call it.

If you ignore the ROs on a safety issue, expect a zero for the stage. At our matches, all experienced shooters are expected to act as ROs.

It doesn't take that much time to enable/disable the safety on a 10/22 with practice. On average you don't transition that may times during a match. For example, this month (July) had 4: 2 on the tank trap, 1 to retrieve the bigger bucket, and 1 changing from the positional knee to sitting.

For me the speed of not having to work the bolt isn't the main advantage... although it is a plus. The big thing is that I have no break in my mental focus.
 

reubenski

First Sergeant
Belligerents
Jun 8, 2008
2,050
1,349
219
39
Colorado Springs, CO
At our NRL22 matches (as per the NRL22 rules) you are required to put a semi-auto safety and call "SAFE" loud enough where the Range Officers can hear it. If you don't call safe, then you must put it on safe, move back to the prior position, and do the transition again. This also applies to leaving your bolt open too. If you get hit for time by having to go back to the prior position, you learn real quick to use the safety and call it. I know since it happened to me twice right when I changed from a bolt gun to the 10/22. One of the times I did use the safety, but just didn't call it.

If you ignore the ROs on a safety issue, expect a zero for the stage. At our matches, all experienced shooters are expected to act as ROs.

It doesn't take that much time to enable/disable the safety on a 10/22 with practice. On average you don't transition that may times during a match. For example, this month (July) had 4: 2 on the tank trap, 1 to retrieve the bigger bucket, and 1 changing from the positional knee to sitting.

For me the speed of not having to work the bolt isn't the main advantage... although it is a plus. The big thing is that I have no break in my mental focus.
It would be interesting to see what all the 100's on June's point race are shooting. Kind of a sampling to see if semi's are dominant in high scores.
 

billmeek

Sergeant of the Hide
Belligerents
Minuteman
Jan 26, 2019
391
172
49
Middle TN
Locally, last month's overall top score was taken by another shooter using my 10/22 (pictured above) while it still had a Feddersen barrel. First place overall this month was taken by a CZ 457 MTR in a new custom chassis, second by another one of my 10/22s in a Kidd chassis, and if I'm not mistaken... I took third using the 10/22 above with the new Proof barrel. Note that I normally score in the lower half of shooters locally. Starting off clearing the KYL this month helped my score quite a bit and may have given me a small confidence boost. The tank trap, on the other hand, seriously kicked my butt.... again.

When you compare a 10/22 (or other semi-auto) to high-end 22LR rifles such as the Vudoo, you need to remember the range of 10/22 rifles out there. There's a lot of them that aren't much more than stock running mediocre ammo. At the other end of the spectrum are people like me that have (recently) invested heavily in their 10/22s to see exactly how much performance they can get out of the platform. In the hands of a more competent shooter my 10/22 may not be quite at the Vudoo level, but in NRL22 matches I believe it should give most any rifle a run for the money.
 
  • Like
Reactions: OLD308

reubenski

First Sergeant
Belligerents
Jun 8, 2008
2,050
1,349
219
39
Colorado Springs, CO
Well, good luck with those semi's guys. I can tell you there are no top three finishes with a 10/22 in my club. The last two 100% scores are taken with a Vudoo. The last 3 top finishes across those two matches were Vudoos and ah CZ.
 

Michael Victor

Victor Company USA
Commercial Supporter
Belligerents
Aug 19, 2006
1,712
103
169
SOCAL USA
www.victorcompanyusa.com
Well, good luck with those semi's guys. I can tell you there are no top three finishes with a 10/22 in my club. The last two 100% scores are taken with a Vudoo. The last 3 top finishes across those two matches were Vudoos and ah CZ.
A few things to keep in mind... first, a lot of guys/gals can't afford dropping $3,000-$4,000 on an NRL22 rifle. And while the Vudoos are excellent shooters, buying one doesn't mean you are going to get a top finish. It's the Indian, not the arrow. : ) I know a guy in TN who schooled the whole crew of Anschutz/Vudoo shooters with his Kidd 10/22 by finishing second overall for the year.
 

littlepod

Newbie
Online Training Access
Belligerents
Oct 16, 2012
488
239
49
Kirkland, WA
A few things to keep in mind... first, a lot of guys/gals can't afford dropping $3,000-$4,000 on an NRL22 rifle. And while the Vudoos are excellent shooters, buying one doesn't mean you are going to get a top finish. It's the Indian, not the arrow. : ) I know a guy in TN who schooled the whole crew of Anschutz/Vudoo shooters with his Kidd 10/22 by finishing second overall for the year.
+1

There's really no mechanical advantage on a bolt vs a 10/22. Now the people who play the game, especially folks who do both PRS and NRL22 will be running a bolt. Not because that the a bolt 22 is mechanically superior to a semi-auto but because that's the game they're playing for. My local NRL22 is populated by PRS people all running Vudoo, or some RPRs for the entry level. There was 1 10/22 and it was a new shooter.
 

OLD308

Sergeant of the Hide
Belligerents
Minuteman
Jun 8, 2018
414
232
49
If the cost of custom 10/22s and Vudoos where reversed this discussion would do a 180.

Justifying the money we spend when most can’t out shoot a 75 year old Targetmaster is the issue. Our poor egos can’t admit that more practice would increase our hit probability greater than any rifle purchase.

Till then I’ll shoot my Clark’s and maybe sell my liver to get a Vudoo. Any takers? I’m a non drinker!
 

Eoddave27

Staff Sergeant
Belligerents
Minuteman
Jan 9, 2018
592
392
69
44
Bel Air, MD
The top three finishers in the last several matches I have shot were a Vudoo, a custom CZ455 and me with my Tikka T1x. My rifle is a stock T1x in a KRG Bravo. It all came down to who was shooting best on the day of the match. The three rifles performance is so close that it’s a wash. They are all capable of hitting the 1/4” KYL at 50 8 times out of 10. There were also some 10/22’s right up there in points. In fact the top scorer in one of the recent matches was a friend of mine shooting a 10/22 using cheap Federal Auto Match ammo. Semi auto and bolt rifles are different classes here so I honestly don’t watch the 10/22’s that closely. For positional shooting the most important thing is who can build a solid position and call the wind. A super accurate rifle can make a difference in stages with tiny targets when you are prone but most of the rifles I have seen at matches are adequate. What I have seen is most of the serious shooters who shoot PRS, NRL and have the most experience shoot the higher end rifles. At any rate what I have seen here is the better shooters winning matches, not the better or most expensive rifle.
 

Kane0519

Private
Belligerents
Feb 17, 2017
131
19
22
Canada
The most serious shooters are often the better shooters, who just so happen to have invested in better equipment because it’s what they’re passionate about. That said, there are only 1-2 stages I’ve shot thus far where I felt my Savage mkII held me back. For the vast majority of stages, any misses were on me. So if I started finishing in the top 5, then I’d have to look & see if a rifle change would put me over the top.

Interesting discussion regarding 10/22 vs bolt though. Some good thoughts.
 

reubenski

First Sergeant
Belligerents
Jun 8, 2008
2,050
1,349
219
39
Colorado Springs, CO
I do use the safety on my 10/22 when moving. It’s a training/practice issue. To me, it’s faster than moving with bolt back on a bolt gun. I engage the safety with my left hand just before I pick the bag and front of the rifle up. As soon as I set the rifle into the next position, my trigger finger disengages it as I move into firing position.

The initial problem was the habit of not using a safety on my 700 or CZ455. A few practice stages focusing on the safety pretty much lined that issue out.
At our NRL22 matches (as per the NRL22 rules) you are required to put a semi-auto safety and call "SAFE" loud enough where the Range Officers can hear it. If you don't call safe, then you must put it on safe, move back to the prior position, and do the transition again. This also applies to leaving your bolt open too. If you get hit for time by having to go back to the prior position, you learn real quick to use the safety and call it. I know since it happened to me twice right when I changed from a bolt gun to the 10/22. One of the times I did use the safety, but just didn't call it.

If you ignore the ROs on a safety issue, expect a zero for the stage. At our matches, all experienced shooters are expected to act as ROs.

It doesn't take that much time to enable/disable the safety on a 10/22 with practice. On average you don't transition that may times during a match. For example, this month (July) had 4: 2 on the tank trap, 1 to retrieve the bigger bucket, and 1 changing from the positional knee to sitting.

For me the speed of not having to work the bolt isn't the main advantage... although it is a plus. The big thing is that I have no break in my mental focus.
And to follow through on the logic.... you're also engaging your safety when transitioning targets at different distances but not breaking position? IE, no sky loading, right?
 

billmeek

Sergeant of the Hide
Belligerents
Minuteman
Jan 26, 2019
391
172
49
Middle TN
If I'm shooting a stage without breaking position, then I'm not engaging the safety when switching between targets downrange. But if my rifle isn't pointed downrange at a match, then the safety is on and the bolt is open with a chamber flag. There are exceptions to the chamber flag such as this month when we had to start the tank trap stage at port arms. The bolt was locked back with the safety on, but no chamber flag, and the mag was inserted at port arms. Only after the rifle was pointed safely downrange is the mag released and the safety off.
 

reubenski

First Sergeant
Belligerents
Jun 8, 2008
2,050
1,349
219
39
Colorado Springs, CO
Exactly. With a bolt gun you should have the bolt open when transitioning targets, not just breaking position. Your face should be on the gun, target in the reticle when you close the bolt. Closing the bolt while the barrel is pointed generally downrange, while looking over the gun, before transitioning or in the process of tansitioning targets is the source of most of the NDs in PRS/ NRL. This is called sky-loading. Bolt gunners don't use safeties bc they use the open bolt and empty chamber as a safety while breaking position and transitioning targets. This safety measure is becoming standardized in PRS/ NRL and is briefed at every safety brief given.

This was my point; if semi's adhered to the same principles (their version of using the safety and calling "safe") then how many targets would you really not have to manipulate something on your rifle? A KYL rack? How much more efficient would it really be?

From my observation NRL22 matches are really lax in these areas. It is a younger discipline and the focus is on fun more than winning so the folks attending the matches don't have hard-ons about the rules. But if the NRL22 organization was forced to sit down and articulate a detailed "safe weapons handling SOP" then I'm sure it would be consistent with the same procedures articulated and enforced in other action shooting sports using semi-autos.
 

jbpmidas

Sergeant
Belligerents
Mar 23, 2013
196
4
22
North Mississippi
I don’t follow on engaging safety between targets. I believe the ND’s come from super light triggers more than anything.

That aside, between targets, my finger is out of the trigger guard. On my bolt rifle, I close the bolt when I’m not breaking position, and if triggers are set a reasonable weight, I don’t see a problem with that.
 

billmeek

Sergeant of the Hide
Belligerents
Minuteman
Jan 26, 2019
391
172
49
Middle TN
I just checked the NRL (not NRL22) and the Precision Rifle Series rules and don't see anything about requiring bolt open when transitioning targets without movement. And just like the NRL22, both allow semi-autos at the match director's discretion.


They do however require bolt open (or in the case of a semi-auto safety on and calling safe) when there is any movement or barricade transition.

I find it interesting that the PRS rules allow:

If there is no movement involved to the first firing point, upon MD’s stage design and discretion, rifles may be in a “Hot” status meaning a round in the chamber, magazine inserted, bolt closed, and weapon on “Safe”.
The NRL22 doesn't allow that as far as I am aware.
 

reubenski

First Sergeant
Belligerents
Jun 8, 2008
2,050
1,349
219
39
Colorado Springs, CO
I just checked the NRL (not NRL22) and the Precision Rifle Series rules and don't see anything about requiring bolt open when transitioning targets without movement. And just like the NRL22, both allow semi-autos at the match director's discretion.


They do however require bolt open (or in the case of a semi-auto safety on and calling safe) when there is any movement or barricade transition.

I find it interesting that the PRS rules allow:



The NRL22 doesn't allow that as far as I am aware.
Do you shoot NRL or PRS matches? Not saying that in a derisive way, but are you tracking the discrepancy between the inadequacy of the rules vs what MDs and shooters are gravitating to and enforcing?

The official rule books are inadequate. Everyone knows that. The term "sky loading" isn't in the rules either, yet you'll hear it at a safety brief and if a match is well run it will be enforced. Are there new shooters that don't understand and need reminding? Yes.

BLUF: if a bolt gunner has an open bolt during a target transition a semi should be on safe. An open bolt is a safety measure; a semi's only equivalent is the safety. If you're moving your muzzle and your face isn't on the gun you should not have a loaded rifle on fire.

Here's an example from this months COF. Tank Trap. 2 steel targets at 75 and paper at 40. Transitioning from the steel to paper. How many shooters had to come off the gun and shimmy and shift over to the paper? Readjust their support system on the leg of the trap? Where was their firing hand? I bet it was on the rifle and it was their main support of the rifle while they were shifting their support hand/ bag? What happens to trigger fingers while this is happening? Did their head come off the cheek piece to identify the paper? Were they moving the muzzle and/ or rifle in fire around with a loaded chamber? This is the same gap as breaking position. A bolt gun is on "safe" while this is happening. What's the condition of your rifle while this is happening?

I don’t follow on engaging safety between targets. I believe the ND’s come from super light triggers more than anything.

That aside, between targets, my finger is out of the trigger guard. On my bolt rifle, I close the bolt when I’m not breaking position, and if triggers are set a reasonable weight, I don’t see a problem with that.

What's "too light"? Definitely a topic of debate, isn't it? So on a troop line you fire a shot, open your bolt, eject a round, close the bolt and then transition to the next target? Did you see the infamous video of woe posted on the PRS forum by the PR Network guy? That's exactly what that dude was doing. It's called sky loading and its why we don't do it.

How many guys, on this months Troop Line (stage 2) sky loaded or didn't engage their safety while transitioning targets and had to look over their gun to find the next target (75 to 100), adjust their parallax, dial their dope, lower or raise bipod legs, adjust the rear bag? What is the difference between any of those and breaking position? Your bolt should be back while you're doing any of that.
 
  • Like
Reactions: steve123

steve123

Lt. Colonel
Belligerents
Mar 16, 2008
8,191
837
219
Flagstaff, AZ
IMO, there are different classes of ability levels of shooters in the various areas across the nation. It's usually me or another guy that win or finish towards the top in our local club. I shoot a Anschutz 1827f and he a Kidd 1022.

But if he or I were to compete against a top world class level shooter we'd get schooled badly.

On that note the same top level shooter would probably win with any reliable and decently accurate rifle.
 

billmeek

Sergeant of the Hide
Belligerents
Minuteman
Jan 26, 2019
391
172
49
Middle TN
Do you shoot NRL or PRS matches? Not saying that in a derisive way, but are you tracking the discrepancy between the inadequacy of the rules vs what MDs and shooters are gravitating to and enforcing?
No. I don't shoot NRL or PRS for a couple of reasons. First, I am not good enough to be competitive. I am getting a little bit better at NRL22, but this is the beginning of my second season shooting. I stopped shooting altogether (pistols and rifles) for about 30 years and only started again a couple of years ago. Secondly, I don't want to spend the money and time on big bore. More rifles, lots of ammo for practice, or take up the time sink of reloading to get that 'extra bit' of accuracy and bring the ammo cost down. I'll stick with 22LR for right now thank you. <grin>

I discussed this with our local NRL22 match director today who does shoot PRS. I can see your point if they are doing something unsafe. Early last year coming off the scope was a problem I had. It was a bad habit that needed breaking. And at that time I was using a Savage B22 FV-SR bolt action to shoot base class. I have since corrected that and stay on the scope when seeking the next target. One of the things I had to get over was the desire to run the scope at too high of power in order to be able to "see the target better". Now I keep my power down to just what I need so that I can quickly and easily locate the next target without having to come off the scope.

On the tank trap this month, I loosened the Magpul bipod so it would tilt and swivel, placed that on the lower leg of the tank-trap, loaded the rifle stock and it was stable. The bolt stays back until I'm on target. When I went to the paper, I didn't come off the scope and adjusted the paralax/dope while keeping on target. So at no time do I think that the rifle was aimed in an unsafe position during that stage. If I were to have had an accidental discharge during the match (while not on safe or the bolt open), I don't think there was a single point at which it could have been fired in an unsafe direction. I can't state that categorically, but it will be something I look for in the next match or even just when I'm out on the range.

Notes on the tank trap "kicking my butt... again": I timed out. I also made a huge mistake. I was the last shooter in the group and had a target all to myself. On the right leg of the trap, I shot the bottom target rather than the top one. Gave up 10 points (bullseye) on that silly mistake. <grumble>

Now one of the places that I do come off the scope (at times) is dialing dope. I "try" to dial by feel, but sometimes make a mistake (or think I do) and have to visually verify. Turret feel is one of the reasons I really like the Athlon Midas TAC while not happy with the Ares BTR. Having presbyopia (aka "old man's eyes / need reading glasses), it's difficult to see the turret markings without glasses; So I've come to prefer dialing by feel. But even briefly coming off the scope that small amount, by cocking my head back to see the dial, I'm keeping position on the rifle so I'm not having to waste time seeking the target again after verifying the dope is correct.

If I'm doing something unsafe at any time, I want anyone at the range to let me know; not just the match director or range officers.
 

billmeek

Sergeant of the Hide
Belligerents
Minuteman
Jan 26, 2019
391
172
49
Middle TN
Something else that I thought of...

While a lot of NRL22 shooters are looking for a competitive edge to win, I don't expect to be good enough to beat even the local guys... much less the folks at a national level. I'm out there because I enjoy shooting and especially because all of the people I've met via NRL22 have been great folks. I'm there to learn and socialize. The primary reason I use a 10/22 over a bolt action rifle (of which I own a few) is that I simply enjoy shooting the 10/22s more. And isn't that what NRL22 should be about?

That said... I'd really like to kick the local guys butts in a match just once! <evil grin>
 

Eoddave27

Staff Sergeant
Belligerents
Minuteman
Jan 9, 2018
592
392
69
44
Bel Air, MD
Bill, you are absolutely right. Shoot whatever you like to shoot the most. Until you master your fundamentals and teach yourself to build a good stable position your rifle will not be the weak link. My son shot a RPR that was a good gun for him but not incredibly accurate. Once he got to the point that I felt his rifle was holding him back we built him a new rifle. That process however took two years and could have been handled with a new barrel for $200. I have seen guys do relatively well with a bone stock $250 10/22 and a 10x SWFA SS scope in matches. The most important thing though was they had fun competing and made a lot of new friends in the process. The easy answer is just buy a rifle that can be easily upgraded along the way to match your ability level that you enjoy shooting. That will get you in the sport without a whole lot of money up front. The most important factor with any rifle for positional shooting is to practice with it and be comfortable and confident in your equipment. I say confidence in your equipment for a good reason. I shot matches with a Savage MKii for a little while. It was extremely accurate but every match I had some kind of function issue with the rifle. Once I bought and set up a reliable rifle my scores went from the middle of the pack to consistently placing in the top 3. Not only did my scores go way up but I no longer spent half the match being frustrated with myself and my rifle. That made the whole experience much better in the end.
 
  • Like
Reactions: littlepod

billmeek

Sergeant of the Hide
Belligerents
Minuteman
Jan 26, 2019
391
172
49
Middle TN
My first NRL22 rifle was the Savage B22 FV-SR and I was initially very happy with it. After a lot of rounds though it (read well in excess of a case), I started having constant extraction issues. So I bought a Mark II FV-SR to use while sending the B22 off for service and to have a spare rifle to use. The Mark II started having the same issues... with a lot less rounds though it. While I have since corrected the problems with both FV-SRs (a learning process in itself), I've moved on to other rifles. But both of the FV-SRs have been kept as base class loaner rifles in case new shooters show up at the match. So I can empathize what you are saying about confidence in your equipment.

One of the things I both like (and hate) is the upgradability of the 10/22. Having the plethora of options is wonderful. Falling down the rabbit-hole upgrading/building 10/22s however can be seriously damaging to the bank account.
 
  • Like
Reactions: littlepod

reubenski

First Sergeant
Belligerents
Jun 8, 2008
2,050
1,349
219
39
Colorado Springs, CO
Fundamentals are like a team run. You don't have to be a master, you just need to be better at them than everyone else.

But seriously, I don't think anyone masters the fundamentals.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Kane0519