New Winchester Staball 6.5 ball powder

RogueTanker

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Well.. shit. Now we're onto something. I called Hodgdon and talked to their technical support for a bit about the powder. They wer saying that the powder works best with 93% or more fill. Talking over it seems like i was just at the cusp of what the powder likes to be at in order to get the pressure and resulting velocity. So I started back at 49.4 and went up to 50.4gr.

7-08 AI
LR 08
CCI 34
loaded to 2.90
162 eld-m

49.4 2872
49.6 2896
49.8 2906
50.0 2899
50.2 2933 heavy lift and ejector mark
50.4 2916 heavy lift and bright ejector mark

Looks like I have a nice node between 49.6 and 50.0 grains. That is smoking fast for this round. I'll test to see if there is the accompanying accuracy and see if it's worth pursuing anymore.
 

clcustom1911

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Well.. shit. Now we're onto something. I called Hodgdon and talked to their technical support for a bit about the powder. They wer saying that the powder works best with 93% or more fill. Talking over it seems like i was just at the cusp of what the powder likes to be at in order to get the pressure and resulting velocity. So I started back at 49.4 and went up to 50.4gr.

7-08 AI
LR 08
CCI 34
loaded to 2.90
162 eld-m

49.4 2872
49.6 2896
49.8 2906
50.0 2899
50.2 2933 heavy lift and ejector mark
50.4 2916 heavy lift and bright ejector mark

Looks like I have a nice node between 49.6 and 50.0 grains. That is smoking fast for this round. I'll test to see if there is the accompanying accuracy and see if it's worth pursuing anymore.
As long as that node stays stable, that's a wide node for a ball powder. I'd make 10 each of 49.6, 49.8, and 50 and see what the numbers say.
 

B-P-UU

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Well.. shit. Now we're onto something. I called Hodgdon and talked to their technical support for a bit about the powder. They wer saying that the powder works best with 93% or more fill. Talking over it seems like i was just at the cusp of what the powder likes to be at in order to get the pressure and resulting velocity. So I started back at 49.4 and went up to 50.4gr.

7-08 AI
LR 08
CCI 34
loaded to 2.90
162 eld-m

49.4 2872
49.6 2896
49.8 2906
50.0 2899
50.2 2933 heavy lift and ejector mark
50.4 2916 heavy lift and bright ejector mark

Looks like I have a nice node between 49.6 and 50.0 grains. That is smoking fast for this round. I'll test to see if there is the accompanying accuracy and see if it's worth pursuing anymore.
Wow.. that's .280 AI speed with 10-12 grains less powder.
 

Baer45

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Well.. shit. Now we're onto something. I called Hodgdon and talked to their technical support for a bit about the powder. They wer saying that the powder works best with 93% or more fill. Talking over it seems like i was just at the cusp of what the powder likes to be at in order to get the pressure and resulting velocity. So I started back at 49.4 and went up to 50.4gr.

7-08 AI
LR 08
CCI 34
loaded to 2.90
162 eld-m

49.4 2872
49.6 2896
49.8 2906
50.0 2899
50.2 2933 heavy lift and ejector mark
50.4 2916 heavy lift and bright ejector mark

Looks like I have a nice node between 49.6 and 50.0 grains. That is smoking fast for this round. I'll test to see if there is the accompanying accuracy and see if it's worth pursuing anymore.
How does that compare to your current favorite load?
 

Baer45

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Staball is not temperature stable. I ran a test in the 25 creedmoore using Peterson SRP brass, 131g blackjack bullets and both cci 400 and 450 primers through a 28” Bartlein suppressed.
I will choose one specific loading to present however this pattern marched out throughout the testing of an entire ladder test
On day one the temperature was 61 F.
Staball 44.6g 3029 fps with SD 9 (3 shots) cci 450
Day two the temperature was 41 F.
Staball 44.6g 3006 fps with SD 8 (5 shots) cci 450
Staball 44.6g 3004 fps with SD 10 (3 shots) cci 400
that is a 1.2 FPS difference per degree F
Were all loads, loaded at the same time? Humidity alone can cause that variance if loaded separate days...
 

Baer45

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How were these loads weighed/dispsened??

If weighed what type of scale and was it protected from drafts or drifting?

If thrown, was the measure tested for consistency?

Is this even a good powder for 308....from what I've read it falls somewhere on the slower side of H4350.

Skunkworx's Dasher work up progressed up normally, and that seems like a more applicable case. Additionally 29 grs fills to the N/S junction on LC 223 brass, and given suspected burn rate, that tells you right there you'll be loading well over listed max to achieve velocity in 223.

I've got some loaded up in .223 and eventually 6xc, but not sure when I'll get a chance to shoot right now. If it proves up it will be a great high volume practice round powder to throw, but I'd still weigh out stick powder for competitions.
I would love to know how your 6XC loads work! That was one of the first calibers I will try....
 

Brettmparker1

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6.5C 140 eld loaded 2.82 coal Peterson brass charge 42.5 to 44.5 in .5 increments case fill at 44.5 was near 100 percent with the bullet seated I will shoot them hopefully tomorrow and report back
 

archangel485

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6.5C 140 eld loaded 2.82 coal Peterson brass charge 42.5 to 44.5 in .5 increments case fill at 44.5 was near 100 percent with the bullet seated I will shoot them hopefully tomorrow and report back
I'm on the edge of my seat! This should be a great test. Anxious to hear what you find.
 

jda2631

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6.5C 140 eld loaded 2.82 coal Peterson brass charge 42.5 to 44.5 in .5 increments case fill at 44.5 was near 100 percent with the bullet seated I will shoot them hopefully tomorrow and report back
I have 130 Bergers loaded up in 6.5 Creed with ladder of 43.0-45.0 gr. Going to shoot them out of a 20" AR. Anxious to see what they do. I get 2790 in this gun with the 130 Bergers and 43.5gr of h4350.
 
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Brettmparker1

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Here’s what I got for the 6.5 creed
Peterson brass fed 210m primers 140 eld 2.82 coal .035 jump
All 5 shot strings from prone with rear bag. Ruger rpr factory 24 inch suppressed
Lab radar chrono
All of the groups were around 1/2 inch except 44 but I think I effed it up
42.5 avg 2616 sd 6.5 es13
43 2658 8.8 21
43.5 2722 20.4 50
44 2754 11 26
44.5 2827 8.7 21
Bottom row is the low charge nothing too scary F06CB9EF-6243-489A-8C69-3447F4149B06.jpeg
 

Southern180

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My weekend with staball
6.5 cred 147eldm br2 Hornadybrass

Needed 43.5 staball to match 42 of 4350, seems very dirty . Meters great.
44g of staball netted high 2800s no signs of pressure. 26 inches barrel
I'll keep my 4350
 

Iron Worker

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Just back from the range burning 6.5 Staball in 3 cartridges
22/250 55gr sierra SPBT 42.5grs average velocity 3885 FPS 26"cut rifled bbl Spectacular accuracy 3/8ths groups 100 yds 40.6 grs behind 60gr Sierra TMK again under 1/2 inch 5 shot groups average Velocity 3700 FPS. 220 Swift 1885 28" Octagon bbl,couldn't use Magnetto Chron . But 43grs of 6.5 Staball again produced under 1/2 inch groups with 55gr Speer TNT. 6mm Creedmoor 5/10ths below Max charge 42.8 pushing 115 DTACs locked up the bolt on my custom Rem 700 . I'll back that off a couple of grs and try again. All and all thumbs up for 6.5 Stay Ball
 
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lash

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There seems to be a pattern with powders that have de-coppering agents and being dirty. RL16, CFE223 are examples, and now Staball.
That’s an interesting observation. Is there any data to show that there is a real advantage to using the de-coppering agents? I ask due to not knowing if there is or isn’t. I have used the first two powders sparingly since I already get enough carbon in my brakes and can.

I’ve found out that carbon flakes down the barrel and into the chamber can change things from a pressure perspective right in the middle of a match. Didn’t like it.
 

JMGlasgow

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I'm not sure. I stopped using RL16 due to excessive buildup in my suppressor, and a friend noticed severe buildup in his muzzle brake after about 200 rounds. And speaking to others that use CFE223 they said the same thing about being dirty.

Superformance is another dirty powder, but I'm not sure if it has any de-coppering agents in it.
 

Brettmparker1

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This stuff seems to perform though. 44.6 in my 6.5 creed was the sweet spot 140 eld at 2830 FPS single digit sd. I couldn’t get near that velocity with 4350. It is a dirty powder I will agree their.
 

2aBaCa

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I have some 6.5cm loaded up waiting to go for this weekend.
.2 incriments
42-46gr 140gr eld
42-44gr 147gr eld
44-46gr 121gr Lehigh match solids.
Along with a few 43gr RL16 and 4350 behind 140s for comparison.

It meters real nice on my progressive powder drop within .2 spread. Plus the whole numbers on the Mic adjustment lines up evenly with grains dropped. 1=42.0 2=43.0 etc. which is a first.
 
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padom

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Sure is nice crankin our 6.5 Creedmoore on the 650 . I hate spending all that time weighing each charge individually. I don’t have the time with kids etc... This powder is like the holy grail for someone like me. More time shooting less time in the reloading room.
This was my thoughts with Staball. While maybe dirty, cranking out 6.5cm loads on my XL650 throwing charges for my 6.5cm gasser sounds amazing! I already process 6.5cm brass on a dedicated 650 toolhead. De-prime, push shoulder back 0.0015" with Forster FL Sizing die, push shoulder back remaining .0015" with FL Trim die and squeeze neck down and trim with RT1500, run through 21st century TiN mandrel to set final neck tension. All with the pull of a handle.

Now if I can crank out loaded rounds with staball, awesome. If only the new bullet feeder I had coming would do 6.5 bullets. It only does 9mm, 45 and 223 right now. Now that would be FAST!
 
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towerofpower93

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This was my thoughts with Staball. While maybe dirty, cranking out 6.5cm loads on my XL650 throwing charges for my 6.5cm gasser sounds amazing! I already process 6.5cm brass on a dedicated 650 toolhead. De-prime, push shoulder back 0.0015" with Forster FL Sizing die, push shoulder back remaining .0015" with FL Trim die and squeeze neck down and trim with RT1500, run through 21st century TiN mandrel to set final neck tension. All with the pull of a handle.

Now if I can crank out loaded rounds with staball, awesome. If only the new bullet feeder I had coming would do 6.5 bullets. It only does 9mm, 45 and 223 right now. Now that would be FAST!
That's what I'm hoping to do with my 6.5x47L....

Hoping to see more data as others get their test loads fired, but I'm thinking there will be some 8lb kegs of H4350 for sale in the not too distant future if this powder really does what it claims to do.
 

Nimothy

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I gave staball a run in my wife’s 6 creed today. I’m a bit disappointmented. Now a little bit about this rifle, it’s a trued remmy with bart 22” m24 1-7.5 done by alamo in hurst texas and in my opinion has always been on the slow side compared to every velocity/charge weight I’ve ever read. I typically load 105 hybrids with 41.9 h4350 at 3050. (Keep in mind it’s my wife’s gun, it’s 15lbs and she is a new shooter so recoil in an issue) I did a ladder load from 41 to 43.7 all charges were dropped on an autotrickler fx120 (the autothrow was a nightmare, had to use a lee dipper) on lapua brass that’s 3x fired neck turned (cleaned up/evened out) that’s annealed every firing, sized with a redding non bushing die bumped .002 and mandrel expanded with a K&m -.002 mandrel and seated with a redding comp seater. The best es I had was 40!! although I only got to 2990fps and I had no pressure signs, this gun has never not shot a ragged hole with just about any load at 100y. I am a bit defeated. I bought an 8lb jug and was super stoked to be able to load on my progressive just like the rest of y’all are talking about. I Was really hoping to have at least a .3-.5gr node to be comfortable dropping and not trickling. I could use some advice from y’all, it doesn’t matter if it is/isn’t temp stable if I can’t get it to shoot. Also a disclaimer I cleaned cleaned the barrel last week but before the test today I shot 15 factory hornady 105’s through it, never cleaned a gun before with kroil/jb but the fellas at Alamo told/showed me how and said it would take a bit to shoot back in, I did my 6.5creed the same way and it hammered today from the cold bore until the last shot I fired I think I shot 70 through it so I don’t think that’s the issue.
 

702lineman

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I gave staball a run in my wife’s 6 creed today. I’m a bit disappointmented. Now a little bit about this rifle, it’s a trued remmy with bart 22” m24 1-7.5 done by alamo in hurst texas and in my opinion has always been on the slow side compared to every velocity/charge weight I’ve ever read. I typically load 105 hybrids with 41.9 h4350 at 3050. (Keep in mind it’s my wife’s gun, it’s 15lbs and she is a new shooter so recoil in an issue) I did a ladder load from 41 to 43.7 all charges were dropped on an autotrickler fx120 (the autothrow was a nightmare, had to use a lee dipper) on lapua brass that’s 3x fired neck turned (cleaned up/evened out) that’s annealed every firing, sized with a redding non bushing die bumped .002 and mandrel expanded with a K&m -.002 mandrel and seated with a redding comp seater. The best es I had was 40!! although I only got to 2990fps and I had no pressure signs, this gun has never not shot a ragged hole with just about any load at 100y. I am a bit defeated. I bought an 8lb jug and was super stoked to be able to load on my progressive just like the rest of y’all are talking about. I Was really hoping to have at least a .3-.5gr node to be comfortable dropping and not trickling. I could use some advice from y’all, it doesn’t matter if it is/isn’t temp stable if I can’t get it to shoot. Also a disclaimer I cleaned cleaned the barrel last week but before the test today I shot 15 factory hornady 105’s through it, never cleaned a gun before with kroil/jb but the fellas at Alamo told/showed me how and said it would take a bit to shoot back in, I did my 6.5creed the same way and it hammered today from the cold bore until the last shot I fired I think I shot 70 through it so I don’t think that’s the issue.
I'm not telling you what to do at all, but I dont think you went high enough yet. Like stated in earlier post you need to have the case pretty full with ball powders to shoot good. If it was me and I had an 8lb jug of it, I'd at least try and run it to the velocity you had a good node with on 4350 or even a little higher since you had zero pressure signs. Like I said, just a suggestion. It may still not work.
 
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Skunkworx

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I had 40 grains in my dasher so I know you’re most likely not where you need to be with your powder charge with a 6CM. Any particular reason why you decided to stop at 43.7? Sounds like you still have room to go up.
 
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K4ylr

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Somebody stuff this behind a 6🌈🐯 and see what happens. I'm wanting to shoot a 6mm tis next year that's less needy when it comes to reloading steps. And F mag kits.
 

Darqusoull13

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This was my thoughts with Staball. While maybe dirty, cranking out 6.5cm loads on my XL650 throwing charges for my 6.5cm gasser sounds amazing! I already process 6.5cm brass on a dedicated 650 toolhead. De-prime, push shoulder back 0.0015" with Forster FL Sizing die, push shoulder back remaining .0015" with FL Trim die and squeeze neck down and trim with RT1500, run through 21st century TiN mandrel to set final neck tension. All with the pull of a handle.

Now if I can crank out loaded rounds with staball, awesome. If only the new bullet feeder I had coming would do 6.5 bullets. It only does 9mm, 45 and 223 right now. Now that would be FAST!
I'm glad someone else is thinking this way too. I'm all on board if I can reload 6.5 on my 650 in addition to processing the brass. If StaBall pans out I'm going to add the AMP mate to my Christmas-to-Myself list and have way more time to do the shooty things next year.
 

Nimothy

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I had 40 grains in my dasher so I know you’re most likely not where you need to be with your powder charge with a 6CM. Any particular reason why you decided to stop at 43.7? Sounds like you still have room to go up.
I think I was a full grain above book value there. (Could be wrong)I will run it up a bit higher
 

jda2631

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Shot a ladder in a 20" 6.5 creed gas gun today. 130 Berger hybrids, hornady brass, fed 210's. 55 degrees outside.

5 shots of each of the following charges, measured by magneetospeed v3.
43.5 gr: 2646 fps, 23.1 SD
44.0 gr: 2637 fps, 28.5 SD (strange this went down in velocity)
44.5 gr: 2694 fps, 18.8 SD
45.0 gr: 2720 fps, 39.4 SD!!

(edit to address the SD's, these were charged with an RCBS 1500. so charges are accurate to the tenth of a grain.)
Not impressed so far, very high SD's. I had no pressure signs from any charge, so I can keep going up on the charge. Maybe I will hit a node with better SD and get the velocity up as I increase the charge. For reference, this same gun/bullet/brass/primer combo with 43.5 gr H4350 shoots 2790fps with a 7.3 SD.

Accuracy at 100 yards was fine, nothing great nothing awful. Worst group was probably 1.5", best was prob .8" (I didn't measure I am just estimating here).

But as others have said it is dirty as hell. By far the dirtiest powder I have ever used. I was shooting suppressed so that makes it worse, but it's in a league of it's own of any other powder I have shot. The difference between the cases shot with it and 4350 is a massive difference.

I'm no expert, those charges were safe in my gun, they may not be in yours, start low and work up. These are just my results from shooting my first ladder with staball.
 

Nimothy

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Shot a ladder in a 20" 6.5 creed gas gun today. 130 Berger hybrids, hornady brass, fed 210's. 55 degrees outside.

5 shots of each of the following charges, measured by magneetospeed v3.
43.5 gr: 2646 fps, 23.1 SD
44.0 gr: 2637 fps, 28.5 SD (strange this went down in velocity)
44.5 gr: 2694 fps, 18.8 SD
45.0 gr: 2720 fps, 39.4 SD!!

(edit to address the SD's, these were charged with an RCBS 1500. so charges are accurate to the tenth of a grain.)
Not impressed so far, very high SD's. I had no pressure signs from any charge, so I can keep going up on the charge. Maybe I will hit a node with better SD and get the velocity up as I increase the charge. For reference, this same gun/bullet/brass/primer combo with 43.5 gr H4350 shoots 2790fps with a 7.3 SD.

Accuracy at 100 yards was fine, nothing great nothing awful. Worst group was probably 1.5", best was prob .8" (I didn't measure I am just estimating here).

But as others have said it is dirty as hell. By far the dirtiest powder I have ever used. I was shooting suppressed so that makes it worse, but it's in a league of it's own of any other powder I have shot. The difference between the cases shot with it and 4350 is a massive difference.

I'm no expert, those charges were safe in my gun, they may not be in yours, start low and work up. These are just my results from shooting my first ladder with staball.
I think you’re in the same boat as I am, heavier charges and more case fill is what I’m going to try to even out my loads
 

jda2631

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I think you’re in the same boat as I am, heavier charges and more case fill is what I’m going to try to even out my loads
Yea, after my very premature and short testing, it's looking like the only benefit is metering. And if I can get the speed up and SD down, that's a pretty big deal. But I'm not holding my breath right now. I had high expectations due to the claims from Winchester, but my first ladder severely tempered those.

On a side note, did Hodgdon lower the H4350 numbers in their online reloading database when staball was released? I don't remember what their numbers were before but I really think they lowered them to make Staball look better. After Staball was released, the current max charge listed on their online load data for a 130 gr bullet in 6.5 Creedmoor with H4350 is 39.2 gr which is laughably low.

Hodgdon Official Reloading Database


6.5 creed.jpg
 
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Nimothy

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Yea, after my very premature and short testing, it's looking like the only benefit is metering. And if I can get the speed up and SD down, that's a pretty big deal. But I'm not holding my breath right now. I had high expectations due to the claims from Winchester, but my first ladder severely tempered those.

On a side note, did Hodgdon lower the H4350 numbers in their online reloading database when staball was released? I don't remember what their numbers were before but I really think they lowered them to make Staball look better. After Staball was released, the current max charge listed on their online load data for a 130 gr bullet in 6.5 Creedmoor with H4350 is 39.2 gr which is laughably low.

Hodgdon Official Reloading Database


View attachment 7184071
I think you’re right, usually hornady book is below the Hodgdon website and they are listing 42.8. Which seems more accurate. I load 42.4 in my 140 loads for my creed and 41.6 for my 147s. Why would they do that? Are they trying to push the staball? Or? It doesn’t make sense, they stand to make money no matter what powder they sell am I right?
 

Nimothy

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Yea, after my very premature and short testing, it's looking like the only benefit is metering. And if I can get the speed up and SD down, that's a pretty big deal. But I'm not holding my breath right now. I had high expectations due to the claims from Winchester, but my first ladder severely tempered those.

On a side note, did Hodgdon lower the H4350 numbers in their online reloading database when staball was released? I don't remember what their numbers were before but I really think they lowered them to make Staball look better. After Staball was released, the current max charge listed on their online load data for a 130 gr bullet in 6.5 Creedmoor with H4350 is 39.2 gr which is laughably low.

Hodgdon Official Reloading Database


View attachment 7184071
Also they list the FPS at 2687? Why the fuck would you want to run a 130 that slow. Isn’t that Grendel numbers with a 130?
 

Nimothy

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Also I looked up 140’s on the site with h4350, they now say max with a 140amax at 2.82, is 40.6 and it’s a compressed load. Something is wrong with the site
 

reubenski

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Also they list the FPS at 2687? Why the fuck would you want to run a 130 that slow. Isn’t that Grendel numbers with a 130?
No, a Grendel with a 130 out of a 22" barrel is like 2450

I don't even know why you guys are concerning your selves with those numbers. They're always extremely conservative, to the point they don't reflect what people are actually shooting
 
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2aBaCa

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Book (grains) is more like a guideline. If you had a way to measure pressure you would see that it takes a different amount of grains to achieve the same pressure as book with your rifle and loads. That's why it's a good idea to load up to find "your" MAX. And make sure you're jamming the lands in doing so.
 

lash

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I’ve never felt the need to jam into the lands during load development. I’ve read about it and get why some may choose to do so, but don’t feel that there’s any advantage in doing so.
 
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Nimothy

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No, a Grendel with a 130 out of a 22" barrel is like 2450

I don't even know why you guys are concerning your selves with those numbers. They're always extremely conservative, to the point they don't reflect what people are actually shooting
Some times yes. But the 147 load is right on the money for me velocity wise