New March Scopes for 2020

wjm308

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Based on another thread and information that can be gleaned off the interweb, the following scopes will make their appearance at the 2020 SHOT Show.
  1. March F1 5-42x56 High Master (this scope made it's first appearance last year as a prototype but will makes its debut at SHOT 2020 as a production model with a clean .2 mil hash Christmas tree reticle, locking turrets and 40 mil of total elevation with 10 mil turrets, this scope is designed to compete directly with the Schmidt & Bender PM II 5-45x56 but with a wide angle eye piece for generous FOV throughout the magnification range)
  2. March Genesis 4-40x52 (following in the footsteps of the 6-60 introduced last year, the Genesis now has a little brother with 86 mils of total travel, yes you read that right 86 mils, this scope is for the ELR crowd)
  3. March F1 4.5-28x52 High Master (not much info yet, but a few years ago I was asked what my perfect scope would be and I mentioned a Vortex Gen II Razor 4.5-27x56 that weighed less than 30 oz, well my dream might come true with this design as it's going to be short and light and designed for the competition community, this is the one I'm most excited about.)
  4. March SFP 1.5-15x42 Compact (this was a surprise and hopefully will be an ideal scope for hunters as well as the gas gun crowd, if the reticle is done right, this might prove to be the ideal companion to both small frame and large frame AR's)
  5. March FFP 1-10x24 Shorty at only 8.39 inches and 17.18 oz with side parallax from 10yards to infinity!
  6. New March Warranty - https://marchscopes.com/news/3770/ they are saying 10 years now, but really it's a limited lifetime in lieu of their statement: "If a manufacturing problem caused the defect,DEON will repair the scope for no additional cost to the owner – even after the Warranty has expired."
As more information is released I'll try to keep this thread updated.

Pic of the new 5-42x56 High Master
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Pic of the new 4-40x52 Genesis
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Pic of the new 1-10x24 Shorty First Focal Plane Scope


Like the new reticle FML-TR1
1582047171929.png
 

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wjm308

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Regarding "High Master" glass (sounds like Grandmaster Flash - back when rap was good!) some of you may be unfamiliar with the concept, essentially, March already had outstanding glass in their F1 series with excellent CA control, but the High Master gets close to fluorite quality, this comes from their website - https://marchscopes.com/news/2910/:
“New High Master Lens System”

The High Master Lens System has 2 Super ED lens elements within its new lens system.

Optical characteristics of Super ED lens is even closer to pure fluorite crystal which has virtually no dispersion that result in chromatic aberration in the image.

By using Super ED lens elements, we can suppress chromatic aberration even more than with ED lenses and thus produce a sharper image with greater contrast, while still having a strong scope.
 

koshkin

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I bet they manage to fuck up the 1.5-15x somehow, it'll be something stupid like MOA and SFP only or somehow weigh 35 ounces. I have lost all hope that someone will ever make my ideal scope
The 1.5-15x42 is indeed SFP, but it is not very heavy. Right around 21 ounces, I think.

What would be your ideal scope?

ILya
 

koshkin

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That 1.5-15 scope seems like it can be a very attractive option for hunting. I'm curious now...
I have not yet seen the scope, but if I understand this correctly, the illumination is a rather bright center dot, which should really help it with speed on 1.5x.

That is one of the designs I am really looking forward to seeing at SHOT.

ILya
 

koshkin

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I would love to see a bright center dot in this scope.
So far, it looks like they will be offering it with FD-1 (#4 with a bright dot) and FD-2 (simple Mil-has with bright dot). Maybe some other reticles too, but I do not know for sure.

I'll take a look at SHOT and if I like what I see, I'll get my hands on one. At 10.5" long and weighing in around 21 ounces, it should be one hell of a general purpose hunting scope.

ILya
 

Chasing3

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I would be interested in the SFP 1.5-15x42 Compact model. It would be great if they came out with a first focal plane option too. I had one of their 3-24x52 models and really liked it but the reticle was too thick for my eyes. Their Christmas tree reticle would have been good if they did not clutter the center so much with the ballooned center cross hair.
 

koshkin

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I would be interested in the SFP 1.5-15x42 Compact model. It would be great if they came out with a first focal plane option too. I had one of their 3-24x52 models and really liked it but the reticle was too thick for my eyes. Their Christmas tree reticle would have been good if they did not clutter the center so much with the ballooned center cross hair.
I have the 3-24x52 with their tree reticle and while it works, I do agree that the center is a little on the thick side.

March has a new tree reticle that will first be available in the new 5-42x56 and 4.5-28x52. If it does well, maybe they will add it to other scopes.

As far as the 1.5-25x42 goes, I am trying to convince them to make a FFP version. I think a well designed 1.9-15x42 or something similar would do really well for them.

ILya
 

ohiofarmer

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I, too, would love to see a FFP option on the 1.5-15x42. Ilya, if they’re listening to you, perhaps you can suggest this. With a bright center dot the issue of the reticle being too thin at lower powers should be moot.
 

koshkin

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I, too, would love to see a FFP option on the 1.5-15x42. Ilya, if they’re listening to you, perhaps you can suggest this. With a bright center dot the issue of the reticle being too thin at lower powers should be moot.
The way they do the bright center dot works well for SFP reticles. Incorporating that into a FFP design would be a little tricky, but I have some ideas on how to work around that. I don't know if they are listening to me all that much, but I have been lobbying for a FFP scope of this type for years, and I am definitely not going to stop now.

ILya
 

Chasing3

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Ilya I think that would a good direction for March. I really did enjoy my scope and don't think the company gets the credit they deserve for the quality they produce. I do not think weight will be an issue for them. They seem to have been able to produce light weight designs. Hoping they hit a home run with this lower magnification range and provide some good reticle options.
 
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koshkin

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Ilya I think that would a good direction for March. I really did enjoy my scope and don't think the company gets the credit they deserve for the quality they produce. I do not think weight will be an issue for them. They seem to have been able to produce light weight designs. Hoping they hit a home run with this lower magnification range and provide some good reticle options.
In terms of quality, March is absolutely world class. They do their own thing with their own design objectives and they are really good at it.

Their 5-42x56 is definitely the smallest and lightest scope of this type I have seen to date. I tested the prototype and liked it.

The 4.5-28x52 will likely clock in below 30 ounces.

I think their objectives are close to being diffraction limited which is really rare in the riflescope world. They get some seriously nice resolution out of very compact designs.

ILya
 
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wjm308

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I would be interested in the SFP 1.5-15x42 Compact model. It would be great if they came out with a first focal plane option too. I had one of their 3-24x52 models and really liked it but the reticle was too thick for my eyes. Their Christmas tree reticle would have been good if they did not clutter the center so much with the ballooned center cross hair.
You and me both, the 1.5-15x42 will make for an extremely compact and effecting hunting scope while also being effective on semi auto platforms, hopefully they will look into designing a FFP in similar style, none of their FFP offerings have been over 8.4x magnification so I wouldn't expect the same 1.5-15 but maybe a 1.9-15 as ILya mentions. ILya has been pushing for an exemplary short optic with a decent objective for dynamic shooting for some time now, March might just be the right manufacturer to deliver on this front.

With regard to the 3-24 series, that is what first drew me into March and I was highly impressed with the optical quality and control of CA for such a high magnification scope. Like you my gripe was the thick FML-1 reticle and I was not excited with the HORUS like T1 reticle. March really wants to listen to the US consumer, especially on the competition front. The 5-42x56 High Master is their first foray into the serious FFP competition market and their aim seems to be at the high end Schmidt 5-45x56 and ELR market, with 40 mil of travel it seems ideal for ELR shooters without getting into the Genesis class style of scope. Yes, shooting a 375 Cheytac at 2 miles might require over 60 mils of travel, but with how short the 5-42x56 will be (almost 3 inches shorter than the Schmidt 5-45) this allows for use of the Charlie Tarac device without being baseball bat sized, and even without the Charlie Tarac you still have a lot of travel. I think rimfire shooters will also find application and the new mil hash Christmas tree reticle appears to be well thought out and much better than the prototype introduced last year. They are showing a production model at SHOT next month, so hopefully these scopes will be available soon thereafter.
 

wjm308

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The 4.5-28 sounds perfect hopefully it won’t be 2 years down the road
That is my great hope and I do not think it will be 2 years down the road like some other manufacturers. I am hoping for later in 2020 but that is just speculation. This comes right from March's website:

New Concept Model – ② 4.5-28x52mm FFP High Master Wide Angle
This March FX 4.5-28X52 FFP High Master-Wide Angle rifle scope is built around the competition proven High Master lens system. It is a light and short rifle scope designed for fast practical shooting. One you have used this rifle scope, the future of practical shooting will become clear.​

March wants to be a major player in the competition scene here in the US, this scope was specifically designed to compete at this level, the fact they are not using their typical 8x erector but instead going to a 6.2x erector tells me they are focusing on some other areas of the design to enhance this scope for the market. I loved the 3-24x52 but a major gripe was the DOF/Parallax which was finicky, if they are able to improve DOF/Parallax with this design, improve on their already impressive glass with the High Master components and provide a well executed .2 mil hash Christmas tree reticle then I may be selling a number of my scopes to grab this one, but (and it's a BIG BUT) they have to execute on all the above.

Hopefully there will be a prototype at SHOT that ILya can play with, this will give us some idea of where they might be heading with this scope. Earlier this year I had high hopes for the Steiner M7Xi with its 4-28x56 design, but the design suffers from CA and has some IQ falloff at high magnifications, so really hoping the March 4.5-28x52 will excel in these areas.
 
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Denys

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I don't believe so, I think the HM lens system is only available in the 52 and 56mm objective lens size and for higher magnifications. It would be unwarranted for this kind of optics. We'll find out more soon enough.
 

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The way they do the bright center dot works well for SFP reticles. Incorporating that into a FFP design would be a little tricky, but I have some ideas on how to work around that. I don't know if they are listening to me all that much, but I have been lobbying for a FFP scope of this type for years, and I am definitely not going to stop now.

ILya
Years ago, I posted that NF should make a FFP 3-15x42 based off of their 2-10x42. 30 guys must have liked that post. I spoke to my Vortex rep about their interest in a lighter weight 4-16x42 AMG. He laughed and began arguing with me about why that’s unnecessary. I don’t understand why these companies are so hesitant to give the market what it wants.

The LRHS was supposed to be an answer to the hole in the market, but it came in overweight, isn’t truly top tier, and massive price fluctuation doesn’t help sales either (still a great and popular scope). But I do think there is an opportunity for a top tier manufacturer to create a sub 2k sub 20oz mid-power crossover. March would probably be the company I’d pick for the task.

If March misses the mark, it’ll be by trying to do too much. We get it, your optical engineers can go to 11, but keep the knob on 9, and use those big brains to execute it perfectly. ILya, please convey to March that a perfectly executed 4-16, 3-15, 4-20, etc. will fare better than a 2-22x42 with quirks. Reticle, weight, FOV, DOF, knobs, illumination, parallax, the whole package, get it perfect and you’ll establish the new gold standard for the cross over category.
 

wjm308

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Years ago, I posted that NF should make a FFP 3-15x42 based off of their 2-10x42. 30 guys must have liked that post. I spoke to my Vortex rep about their interest in a lighter weight 4-16x42 AMG. He laughed and began arguing with me about why that’s unnecessary. I don’t understand why these companies are so hesitant to give the market what it wants.

The LRHS was supposed to be an answer to the hole in the market, but it came in overweight, isn’t truly top tier, and massive price fluctuation doesn’t help sales either (still a great and popular scope). But I do think there is an opportunity for a top tier manufacturer to create a sub 2k sub 20oz mid-power crossover. March would probably be the company I’d pick for the task.

If March misses the mark, it’ll be by trying to do too much. We get it, your optical engineers can go to 11, but keep the knob on 9, and use those big brains to execute it perfectly. ILya, please convey to March that a perfectly executed 4-16, 3-15, 4-20, etc. will fare better than a 2-22x42 with quirks. Reticle, weight, FOV, DOF, knobs, illumination, parallax, the whole package, get it perfect and you’ll establish the new gold standard for the cross over category.
Hey jakelly, been a while since I've seen you around, but that might be me more than you. I agree with you in that I hoped Nightforce or Vortex would have stepped up to deliver what you mention. Nightforce tried (I think) with the NX8 and the 2.5-20x50, but going with an 8x erector at the price they were aiming too many compromises were made and the scope fails to deliver in some of the most critical areas (edge to edge sharpness, eyebox and DOF/Parallax). The existing ATACR F1 4-16x42 most closely resembles what you are looking for (except I'm guessing you'd prefer it to be lighter), but for me personally I'd like to see more manufacture's go beyond the 4x erector and enter into 5x/6x but still maintain superb optical quality, eyebox and DOF/Parallax. Of course, the S&B PMII 5-25 comes to mind being one of the first 5x designs to truly be tier one in the aforementioned areas; although some could argue with it's tunneling it's not truly 5x at least with regard to FOV. And then look at how many manufacturer's followed in their footsteps which has led to the amazing scopes we have available today in this range.

As you know, I've been on the "hunt" for the perfectly executed long range/light weight scope. Years ago this led me to the Premier LT 3-15x50 (TT 315M) and then to the March 3-24x42 and 3-24x52 (and a bazillion other scopes in between); the Premier LT was the most perfectly executed scope in it's class; however, the limitation of 12 mil's of elevation drew away from it's perfection and still remains an area for improvement (are you listening TT?). At around 24oz I had such high hopes for the March 3-24 series and while it executes in IQ it lacked in DOF/Parallax, finicky eyebox at higher mags, distortion at low mags, issues with reticle and mushy (albeit accurate) turrets. I've made a compromise in weight and settled on the Minox ZP5 5-25 series scopes as they keep me at a reasonable weight and offer the best IQ I've ever seen in a scope with one of my favorite reticles in the MR4. But they are a compromise, I'd really prefer a scope that weighed a little less and provided more FOV at the bottom end, but I have not found that scope.

For me personally, the 4-16/3-15 range scopes are "old school", we are beginning to see more manufactures lean toward 3-18 and 4-20 which I think is much more ideal. The fact that March is looking at a 4.5-28x52 with 6.2x magnification ratio says they are willing to compromise on their 8x erector in order to achieve a better overall optical design, I really expect this scope to excel in most areas. But not everyone needs 4.5-28 which leaves the door open for something smaller. Schmidt blew the Ultra Short market open with the 5-20 and then 3-20 proving that you could make an alpha class scope with a short body and high magnification. While I'd prefer to see March come out with a similar 3-20x50 design but even lighter and shorter than the Schmidt, maybe the market is ripe for something like a 2.7-18x42 that is short and light (say under 22oz).

When you mention you "don't understand why these companies are so hesitant to give the market what it wants" , in their defense I think it's difficult in this market to determine exactly what is going to sell which is why almost everyone offers the tried and true designs. Manufacturer's like Schmidt and March have been pushing the envelope in optical designs for some time now and one could say Vortex did as well when they introduced the Gen II 4.5-27x56 which was shorter than most 5-25's offered greater magnification but came at the cost of weighing as much as a cinder block, for a competition rig maybe not a big deal but for those wanting something more practical they came out with the AMG 6-24x50, but again, old school design but at least put in a lighter body and it's been a huge seller for them.

While we have a lot of amazing scopes available to us today, all of them have compromises in some way and few are "perfectly executed" as you mention. Let's see what March is able to do with this new 4.5-28x52 and if it comes close to being perfectly executed I think they'll sell a boatload and if that happens we will begin to see more scopes that fit this niche.
 

hertz654

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One of the shared complaints on this site has been March's reticle designs.
ILya, have you been in contact with Koshie directly? He's Deon's chief reticle designer . I was tempted to send him an email, but didn't figure he'd listen to a minion like me.
 

koshkin

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One of the shared complaints on this site has been March's reticle designs.
ILya, have you been in contact with Koshie directly? He's Deon's chief reticle designer . I was tempted to send him an email, but didn't figure he'd listen to a minion like me.
It is Yoshie, not Koshie, which probably answers your question.

ILya
 

Clearlight

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I think most people will be impressed with March's new reticles and designs. The Genesis Mil reticle
was a step in the right direction. The upcoming design is well thought out and will be useful for a wide
range of shooting tasks. It looks good from minimum to maximum zoom, and has all the wind
subtensions most of us would need, without being too busy. Only 5 weeks until Shot Show.

March build quality has always been tier one +, its great to see upcoming reticles and designs more
suitable to field shooting discliplines.
 
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KWilson

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The main problem March have with such a wide magnification ratio is making a reticle that's useable at the low end while still being effective at the top end. They'd gain much more traction if they backed the zoom ratio off and had a reticle that worked well at all magnfication levels.
 

koshkin

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The main problem March have with such a wide magnification ratio is making a reticle that's useable at the low end while still being effective at the top end. They'd gain much more traction if they backed the zoom ratio off and had a reticle that worked well at all magnfication levels.
Wait for the new reticles to come out. I'll be curious to get your take on them. Are you coming to SHOT?

ILya
 

KWilson

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Wait for the new reticles to come out. I'll be curious to get your take on them. Are you coming to SHOT?

ILya
Hi Ilya, unfortunately not mate. I'm in Sydney, Australia - I tend to get a close look at March as the Distributor here often gets prototypes to have a play with so that's what I'll be waiting for with their new tactical models - keen to see the difference the new eyepiece makes as the 5-40x56 model is popular here, but the main criticism always comes back to how sensitive head position is for it. If they solve that issue then I don't see why more people won't gravitate towards them.
 

koshkin

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Hi Ilya, unfortunately not mate. I'm in Sydney, Australia - I tend to get a close look at March as the Distributor here often gets prototypes to have a play with so that's what I'll be waiting for with their new tactical models - keen to see the difference the new eyepiece makes as the 5-40x56 model is popular here, but the main criticism always comes back to how sensitive head position is for it. If they solve that issue then I don't see why more people won't gravitate towards them.
I am sure Stuart will get his hands on these very quickly, so you'll be able to take a look.

Where in Australia are you? I will have to go Australia for work around August or so of 2020.

ILya
 

newguy2k3v2

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The 1.5-15 sounds interesting if they make a ffp version.

To me the ideal, useable reticle would have fairly thick posts from 3,6,9 that taper down and stop about 10mils from center at 3,9 and 10-15 at 6. Christmas tree similar to the mil-xt or ebr-7c. The thing I want that I haven't seen done on a higher mag optic is a brightly illuminated horseshoe and center dot similar to what's in the mk6 1-6 cmr reticle. Give it a .1-.15 center dot for a decently precise center aiming point, .15 thick horeshoe on a 1mil radius. Do not stop the crosshairs and stadia inside the horseshoe.

I wish horeshoes were more common than segmented circles in some reticles. To me you get all the speed without obscuring the target at 6.

I'm not an optics expert. I just guessed at some of my numbers. If I drew it out I'd likely make changes. Flame away.
 
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Denys

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I am sure Stuart will get his hands on these very quickly, so you'll be able to take a look.

Where in Australia are you? I will have to go Australia for work around August or so of 2020.

ILya
I think he said he's in Sidney. I believe that's in New South Wales. Bottom right at 4 o'clock on the map; hold edge of the frame.
 

Denys

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The 1.5-15 sounds interesting if they make a ffp version.

To me the ideal, useable reticle would have fairly thick posts from 3,6,9 that taper down and stop about 10mils from center at 3,9 and 10-15 at 6. Christmas tree similar to the mil-xt or ebr-7c. The thing I want that I haven't seen done on a higher mag optic is a brightly illuminated horseshoe and center dot similar to what's in the mk6 1-6 cmr reticle. Give it a .1-.15 center dot for a decently precise center aiming point, .15 thick horeshoe on a 1mil radius. Do not stop the crosshairs and stadia inside the horseshoe.

I wish horeshoes were more common than segmented circles in some reticles. To me you get all the speed without obscuring the target at 6.

I'm not an optics expert. I just guessed at some of my numbers. If I drew it out I'd likely make changes. Flame away.
Yeah, the 1.5-15X42 is an SFP Compact design. It's a 10X zoom ratio and March (or prety much everyone else) doesn't have anything above an 8.4X zoom ratio in FFP. The 10X zooms are all SFP. Let's see what the future brings.
 

newguy2k3v2

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Yeah, the 1.5-15X42 is an SFP Compact design. It's a 10X zoom ratio and March (or prety much everyone else) doesn't have anything above an 8.4X zoom ratio in FFP. The 10X zooms are all SFP. Let's see what the future brings.
To me the reticle would be useful for holdovers from about 5x on up so there is more mag range that would benefit from ffp than sfp. Sfp would be more useful if they could put detents in the mag ring at 7.5 and maybe 3.75 so that it could still be easily used for holdovers just at 2 or 4x the scale.
 
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KWilson

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I am sure Stuart will get his hands on these very quickly, so you'll be able to take a look.

Where in Australia are you? I will have to go Australia for work around August or so of 2020.

ILya
Hi Ilya, I'm in Sydney, New South Wales. If you end up flying in through here let me know as I work at the airport.
 

koshkin

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Hi Ilya, I'm in Sydney, New South Wales. If you end up flying in through here let me know as I work at the airport.
I might be flying through Sydney, but it is too early to tell.

I'll see what I can arrange. One of the few nice things about work travel is that I get to meet people face to face.

ILya
 

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Hey Bill, @wjm308

I’m around all the time, but I don’t post much.

The problem that I have with the 6x+ erector designs is the difficulty in making the reticle work at both ends. The concession is usually on the low end, and that’s not a convenient place in a hunting scope. If there were no concessions, then I’m very excited about an 8x erector. But, I think that the odds are, “ever in the favor” of a 4x or maybe 5x erector in this type of scope.

These companies are undoubtedly getting mixed signals, because there are voices coming from every hill and dale of the shooting sports, with very different wants. Unfortunately many of those voices belong to relatively new shooters or long time shooters who are new to LR, and don’t really know yet what they need. I get the companies’ dilemma, they are trying to make products for an emerging market that isn’t even sure what it wants. But someone needs to have the wisdom to listen to the guys that have been doing it for a long time and can distinguish between fads and real-world performance. Again, I would point to the success of the LRHS project with George and Pat. If that was a tier 1 scope, with a well designed reticle, intelligent illumination, and sub 20oz, the market would support it. I absolutely believe that March could do that.
 
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wjm308

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Hey Bill, @wjm308

I’m around all the time, but I don’t post much.

The problem that I have with the 6x+ erector designs is the difficulty in making the reticle work at both ends. The concession is usually on the low end, and that’s not a convenient place in a hunting scope. If there were no concessions, then I’m very excited about an 8x erector. But, I think that the odds are, “ever in the favor” of a 4x or maybe 5x erector in this type of scope.

These companies are undoubtedly getting mixed signals, because there are voices coming from every hill and dale of the shooting sports, with very different wants. Unfortunately many of those voices belong to relatively new shooters or long time shooters who are new to LR, and don’t really know yet what they need. I get the companies’ dilemma, they are trying to make products for an emerging market that isn’t even sure what it wants. But someone needs to have the wisdom to listen to the guys that have been doing it for a long time and can distinguish between fads and real-world performance. Again, I would point to the success of the LRHS project with George and Pat. If that was a tier 1 scope, with a well designed reticle, intelligent illumination, and sub 20oz, the market would support it. I absolutely believe that March could do that.
I know exactly what you mean with FFP and getting over a certain magnification, I absolutely love the G2H reticle design for the LRHS scope and have incorporated the "kill zone" into my own design. With a kill zone type etching you can design the reticle to be usable from around 10x so it's not too thick by the time you get to the top but the kill zone or "circle of death" takes over below 10x. The reticle for the 5-42x56 High Master is a brand new design and I am very curious to see how it works at the low end and the high end. The 4.5-28x52 design is only 6.2x so should not suffer as much from the 8x phenomenon and should be an even better execution of thickness from low to high.
 

wjm308

Send it!
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Nov 30, 2012
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Black Forest, CO
I really like how clean the FML-TR1 is and have always preferred Christmas tree "dots" vs solid horizontal lines, it makes for a usable tree in a pinch but also an uncluttered view, I would have preferred illumination to have been beyond the center cross, but very reminiscent of MSR style which some prefer.

1576883497532.png
 
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308Gunner

Full Bird Private
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Jan 22, 2013
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Now if they would just put the High Master glass and this reticle in the 24 it would be just about the perfect hunting scope
 
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DellaDog

Gunny Sergeant
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Sheesh, another reticle miss for March.

I really like March, but MSR, SKMR, MPCT2 and Minox MSR4 are so close to being just right, why does March always try to beat a new path??
 
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