new cartridge development

badassgunworks

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So with the ever driving desire to go faster and further. Swamplord and myself will be introducing several new designs into the market for elr Front runners are 5 monster cartridges based on the Ex- nihiol parent cylinder we designed . the 420 Blitzkrieg , 375 mars, 408 Enforcer 416 Destroyer and a 423 Enforcer. All but the blitzkrieg will be available in builds for any one who wants to optimize in the elr world. specialized actions were built and developed for this cartridge. Action was built by John Pierce and builds on this can be purchased threw pierce. We also have 2 other parent cylinder cartridges that are not based on any known cartridge on the market. The Nemesis and Executioner one being designed to operate in a cheytac size tenon action and the other in a 700 footprint lapua tenon size action. from them many children are born. ( WILDCATS ) in all calibers and capacities up to and above barrett h20. last but not least 400 warlord based on again another parent that does not exist on the market. We also worked with John pierce on introducing the 800 series actions in both short and long actions. 1.450 od actions 700 footprint bolt placement 1.187 tenon and a .800 diameter bolt. ( can do up to chaytac size faces) badger extractor and dule ejectors cut out for wyatts extended boxes. For all of Johns hard work we rewarded him with wildcats based on the short action and long action cheytac cases. The thumper and crusher series. all 3 of us worked togather to design the most bad ass wildcats to be used in his actions. please feel free to ask questions. Swamplord may have some to add to my comments 2nd image is the 420 blitzkrieg next to a 300 windbag. Actions with out bolt handle is the blitzkrieg action. Ation with handle is the 800 series short action (Thumper). Last cartridge is the 400 warlord next to a 6.5 creed . The short action has a dummy cartridge next to it that's the 416 Thumper.
 

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Bradu

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I'm guessing this is Mark? I like what you guys are doing and it's pretty awesome to see an action manufacturer stepping up to help. The thumper action looks like it will be pretty bad ass.
 

badassgunworks

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I'm guessing this is Mark? I like what you guys are doing and it's pretty awesome to see an action manufacturer stepping up to help. The thumper action looks like it will be pretty bad ass.
Yes this is Mark and yes the thumper action is very cool so is the blitzkrieg action. its one hell of a monster.
 

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Badassgunworks
Are these chamberings based on the 50 BMG brass?
 

badassgunworks

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Badassgunworks
Are these chamberings based on the 50 BMG brass?
no they are not based off any known parent they are not formed from another cartridge turned from any known cartridge nor can they be fireformed from any known cartridge that are new design all togather
 

THEIS

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I added photos for you
Hi,

Swamplord takes way better pictures than those, lol.....I remember reading other forums where they actually complained at the number and quality of his pictures haha.

These are going to be some very interesting developments for sure. Glad you finally made an account over here at the hide since there are lots of guys over here that do not deal with social media such as FB and such. So this is great place to interact with them!!

Sincerely,
Theis
 

badassgunworks

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Hi,

Swamplord takes way better pictures than those, lol.....I remember reading other forums where they actually complained at the number and quality of his pictures haha.

These are going to be some very interesting developments for sure. Glad you finally made an account over here at the hide since there are lots of guys over here that do not deal with social media such as FB and such. So this is great place to interact with them!!

Sincerely,
Theis
I could take better pictures but don't have the ability to do so on the road those are pictures of pictures sorry
 
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badassgunworks

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Hi,

I have been waiting for these ever since my damn near 3 hour phone call with Mark earlier today ☺.

You got pics of the short super mags?

Sincerely,
Theis
yes you were wanting pritty pictures there you go Pro Rules
 

Swamplord

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Theis,
Pics of the CT based short super mags are coming soon

do have pics of the 338 Lapua/338 Norma Mag based short mags , less than 2" in length and 84.0 gr h20 capacity in the 30 cal, have been testing the 300 Long Range Competition (LRC) in two rifles built for testing these cartridges, one with a 24" 10 tw Bartlein barrel and the other with a 30" 8 tw Rock Creek barrel, easily smokes the 300 Win Mag with 200 gr SMK and Berger 200.20x bullets, factory ready headstamped brass is currently in the works for the 300 LRC with others to follow

left to right
257 Laser
6.5 Mighty Mouse
7mm LRC
300 LRC
338 Alaskan Hunter
 

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THEIS

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Hi,

@Squibbler In regards to your question in the XC thread.

IMO I don't think we will have that "6.5" of the ELR cartridge world without a few things coming together.

For the past decade the advancements in the ELR world in general, not just cartridges has been very slow and very small improvements in reality.

That is because IMO people have been focused on improving 1 singular aspect at a time instead of improving the entire ELR package at one time.

Internal ballistics has been one of the hardest to improve upon because there are very few that truly understand it in its' complete form (I am not one of them lol). We have groups that know projectiles, other groups that know burn rate optimization, other groups that know rifling profile optimization in terms of pressure utilization, etc etc but very rarely do we see them work together and even more rare do we see them in the same group as a whole.

The wildcat cartridge world appears to be huge with so many different people, companies and cartridges working in it but behind the scenes there are only a few that are pioneering any real advancements. Others may appear to be pioneering and advancing things but there are a lot of "knife in the back" situations going on.

With the proper case manufacturers I think we can look for a few more advancement steps from Pro and Mark. I know I will be going to them for several projects.

BUT back to your original question of what is 6.5 CM of the ELR world :)

I think we have to look at the ELR world in layers since it is so long :)
I see a super fast MV 7mm projectile (proper design in monolithic alloys of course) on a very large but optimized case being an easy "go to" for 2k distances.
I see a super fast MV 375 projectile (proper design in monolithic alloys of course) on a very large but optimized case being an easy "go to" for 3k distances.
I see the advancement and fruition of the 420 Blitzkrieg design being the "go to" for anything beyond 3k distances since it gives the speed and displacement as a single package.

Edited To Add:
We also have to realize and understand that exterior ballistic understanding and knowledge must be increased at the same rate as cartridge development and understanding increases because we (shooters) can have the best interior ballistic designs known to man provided to us but blow it with poor exterior ballistic knowledge.


Sincerely,
Theis
 

Squibbler

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Hi,

@Squibbler In regards to your question in the XC thread.

IMO I don't think we will have that "6.5" of the ELR cartridge world without a few things coming together.

For the past decade the advancements in the ELR world in general, not just cartridges has been very slow and very small improvements in reality.

That is because IMO people have been focused on improving 1 singular aspect at a time instead of improving the entire ELR package at one time.

Internal ballistics has been one of the hardest to improve upon because there are very few that truly understand it in its' complete form (I am not one of them lol). We have groups that know projectiles, other groups that know burn rate optimization, other groups that know rifling profile optimization in terms of pressure utilization, etc etc but very rarely do we see them work together and even more rare do we see them in the same group as a whole.

The wildcat cartridge world appears to be huge with so many different people, companies and cartridges working in it but behind the scenes there are only a few that are pioneering any real advancements. Others may appear to be pioneering and advancing things but there are a lot of "knife in the back" situations going on.

With the proper case manufacturers I think we can look for a few more advancement steps from Pro and Mark. I know I will be going to them for several projects.

BUT back to your original question of what is 6.5 CM of the ELR world :)

I think we have to look at the ELR world in layers since it is so long :)
I see a super fast MV 7mm projectile (proper design in monolithic alloys of course) on a very large but optimized case being an easy "go to" for 2k distances.
I see a super fast MV 375 projectile (proper design in monolithic alloys of course) on a very large but optimized case being an easy "go to" for 3k distances.
I see the advancement and fruition of the 420 Blitzkrieg design being the "go to" for anything beyond 3k distances since it gives the speed and displacement as a single package.

Edited To Add:
We also have to realize and understand that exterior ballistic understanding and knowledge must be increased at the same rate as cartridge development and understanding increases because we (shooters) can have the best interior ballistic designs known to man provided to us but blow it with poor exterior ballistic knowledge.


Sincerely,
Theis

Thank you for the insight and I completely agree.

On the internal ballistic side of things I view it as one problem and that is "in creating uniformity". To me the problem lies in the interface between propellant, brass expansion, bullet engagement and obturation. Then taking into consideration this all has to occur in the extremes of environmental factors.
Thinking outside of the box (this maybe a complete idiotic statement) but I've always wondered if it would be possible to take all of that out the equation. Create a sealable chamber with a pressurized gas propellant and only the projectile gets chambered. Thus taking out minute differences in metallurgy, neck tensions, internal dimensions, expansion, etc.

On the external ballistic side, I'd really love to understand what's optimal for transitioning transonic. My best guess is there is definitely a sweet spot with bullet design and twist rate. Personally I would rather take a bullet that transitions well vs the best supersonic flyer. Jim Boatright's writings have been extremely interesting in understanding wind flow, twist rates, and bullet design. I think it's interesting how at different ranges the requirements for accuracy change. Close range favors tangent design for less spin, supersonic favors secant for B.C., and it's looking like transonic favors tangent for more gyroscopic stability. What's really interesting is toss in Tubb's nose ring into the mix for less vertical dispersion. I think of this like a little snow plow on the front of the bullet that widens the path, so the majority of the bullet does not need to deal with the laminar flow. And for accuracy at ELR we need all of these things into one!
For actually trying to learn what's going on at transonic is when I take out my .223. It keeps me close enough to be able to see and hear better what's happening. This is my one man band answer to ELR studies...lol. Wish I had the drones and .gov funding to really study things. I only have .me funding and my wife already thinks I'm nuts...but I like to call it tenacious curiosity . :) Otherwise I've seen a few things with my .223 that I don't understand yet.

@badassgunworks -- we have the same goal .... Hit the moon;). I wish I had guys like you for my neighbor --would love to hang with you, that would be fun. I feel we are on the same page with a lot of things. I have had the same hunch of .408 but was concerned about current propellant, primer, and projectile selections before I committed budget to the project.
 

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What advancements are happening in propellant ignition? Do these use 50BMG primers?

Is electronic ignition being explored?
 
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badassgunworks

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Thank you for the insight and I completely agree.

On the internal ballistic side of things I view it as one problem and that is "in creating uniformity". To me the problem lies in the interface between propellant, brass expansion, bullet engagement and obturation. Then taking into consideration this all has to occur in the extremes of environmental factors.
Thinking outside of the box (this maybe a complete idiotic statement) but I've always wondered if it would be possible to take all of that out the equation. Create a sealable chamber with a pressurized gas propellant and only the projectile gets chambered. Thus taking out minute differences in metallurgy, neck tensions, internal dimensions, expansion, etc.

On the external ballistic side, I'd really love to understand what's optimal for transitioning transonic. My best guess is there is definitely a sweet spot with bullet design and twist rate. Personally I would rather take a bullet that transitions well vs the best supersonic flyer. Jim Boatright's writings have been extremely interesting in understanding wind flow, twist rates, and bullet design. I think it's interesting how at different ranges the requirements for accuracy change. Close range favors tangent design for less spin, supersonic favors secant for B.C., and it's looking like transonic favors tangent for more gyroscopic stability. What's really interesting is toss in Tubb's nose ring into the mix for less vertical dispersion. I think of this like a little snow plow on the front of the bullet that widens the path, so the majority of the bullet does not need to deal with the laminar flow. And for accuracy at ELR we need all of these things into one!
For actually trying to learn what's going on at transonic is when I take out my .223. It keeps me close enough to be able to see and hear better what's happening. This is my one man band answer to ELR studies...lol. Wish I had the drones and .gov funding to really study things. I only have .me funding and my wife already thinks I'm nuts...but I like to call it tenacious curiosity . :) Otherwise I've seen a few things with my .223 that I don't understand yet.

@badassgunworks -- we have the same goal .... Hit the moon;). I wish I had guys like you for my neighbor --would love to hang with you, that would be fun. I feel we are on the same page with a lot of things. I have had the same hunch of .408 but was concerned about current propellant, primer, and projectile selections before I committed budget to the project.
a few things to consider. our biggest problem today is not powder burn rates though slower powders would help . to line out the biggest problem today the wall we run unto that can be fixed ignition problems are a direct result to case fill % if for some reason one thinks that some how a large % of the overall powder volume is ignited by the primer is crazy talk look at the 600 nitro express it has no issues. now if you run into pressures before you reach a proper case fill that's a design issue. how do you solve the problem . its simple use more powder. Oh wait your into pressures and cant use more powder cause there is no slower powders. the fix is simple make the case stronger and the action stronger so you can use more powder running higher pressures allowing the use of more powder . but that also causes other issues most powders on the market but a few run into issues at or above 78 to 80 thousand psi lots of powders detonate vrs burn. choosing the proper powder and designing every thing from the ground up is the future of elr Not simply doing the same old thing expecting different results
 

rocketscience

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Kinda off subject, but can anyone point me in a direction to where I can get more information on the 375 pro cartridge depicted above? I’ve tried google, but no dice.
 

badassgunworks

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Thank you for the insight and I completely agree.

On the internal ballistic side of things I view it as one problem and that is "in creating uniformity". To me the problem lies in the interface between propellant, brass expansion, bullet engagement and obturation. Then taking into consideration this all has to occur in the extremes of environmental factors.
Thinking outside of the box (this maybe a complete idiotic statement) but I've always wondered if it would be possible to take all of that out the equation. Create a sealable chamber with a pressurized gas propellant and only the projectile gets chambered. Thus taking out minute differences in metallurgy, neck tensions, internal dimensions, expansion, etc.

On the external ballistic side, I'd really love to understand what's optimal for transitioning transonic. My best guess is there is definitely a sweet spot with bullet design and twist rate. Personally I would rather take a bullet that transitions well vs the best supersonic flyer. Jim Boatright's writings have been extremely interesting in understanding wind flow, twist rates, and bullet design. I think it's interesting how at different ranges the requirements for accuracy change. Close range favors tangent design for less spin, supersonic favors secant for B.C., and it's looking like transonic favors tangent for more gyroscopic stability. What's really interesting is toss in Tubb's nose ring into the mix for less vertical dispersion. I think of this like a little snow plow on the front of the bullet that widens the path, so the majority of the bullet does not need to deal with the laminar flow. And for accuracy at ELR we need all of these things into one!
For actually trying to learn what's going on at transonic is when I take out my .223. It keeps me close enough to be able to see and hear better what's happening. This is my one man band answer to ELR studies...lol. Wish I had the drones and .gov funding to really study things. I only have .me funding and my wife already thinks I'm nuts...but I like to call it tenacious curiosity . :) Otherwise I've seen a few things with my .223 that I don't understand yet.

@badassgunworks -- we have the same goal .... Hit the moon;). I wish I had guys like you for my neighbor --would love to hang with you, that would be fun. I feel we are on the same page with a lot of things. I have had the same hunch of .408 but was concerned about current propellant, primer, and projectile selections before I committed budget to the project.
the more under bore you go the less issues you have with case fill and ignition allowing for a larger variation of burn rates there will be less if a issue using a 408 with 190 to 200 h20 then using a 185 grain + h20 is 375 and we did it with the 375 mercenary with no issues so did mitch using the 375 lpm running up to 160 grains of bmg powder with no ignition issues even at sub -0- temps
 

Matthew488

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I'm mostly interested in more info on the 375 Mars and how it would compare to the 375 BAS in both performance and barrel life.
 

badassgunworks

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I'm mostly interested in more info on the 375 Mars and how it would compare to the 375 BAS in both performance and barrel life.
performance will much greater barrel life will be much worse its simple when you run at pressures that are in the 80,000 plus range more generated heat is produced. you cant have your cake and eat it too I refuse to allow barrel life to dictate advancement. if you want longer barrel life use a bigger bore diameter and the 375 is tapped out in bullet design its time to move forward 408 and 423 is the future and perhaps 416 as well
 

THEIS

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Hi,

The reason we have "ignition" problems is because the "advancements" were done singular and without taking the other pieces of the puzzle into consideration.

We wanted more velocity....so we go to larger case capacity.
We wanted better ballistics to go along with that velocity....so we go to overbore calibers.
Doing so coupled the ignition and pressure issues into 1.....we needed to reduce pressures so we went to slowest powder available. Doing so caused the powder fill to change ratios which in turn caused "ignition" problems.
So essentially we have been robbing Peter to pay Paul....
Need to reduce pressures so we rob velocity from Paul.
Need to gain velocities so we rob case optimization from Peter...
And the wheels on the bus go round and round.

When..why haven't we just accepted that a new pressure threshold should be utilized to help stop robbing Peter to pay Paul?

EDM tried it with their 2 piece tool steel case design for the 338 Yellow Bastard but there were other problems facing that.

1. It would require action manufacturers to get onboard with that.
2. It would require cartridges to be designed in a way that chambers reduce the "brass flow" we hear as an argument to why we cannot run xyz pressures. Example---as badass mentioned on phone the other day....look at the pressures the BR guys are running in their little 6PPCs yet they do not have to resize their cases when reloading. They shoot at the bench, reload and shoot again. I watched BR Hall of Famer Don Geraci shoot the Nationals with 10 pieces of brass and never once resized.
3. It would require case manufacturers to get onboard with that?
4. Sure there are others :)


Sincerely,
Theis
 

Lynn Jr

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In the old days they made cases with a steel casehead and a threaded on brass body and they called them
Steelhead cases.
I might be wrong on this but there was talk about 10 years ago about Dave Tooley making a batch up for the 1000 yard Benchrest crowd.

I would think Hoffman Metals in Northern California could make the caseheads if someone could draw them up.
 

Swamplord

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Kinda off subject, but can anyone point me in a direction to where I can get more information on the 375 pro cartridge depicted above? I’ve tried google, but no dice.
375/338 Norma Mag Improved I did back in 2013/2014, basically 375 RUM balls in a shorter, thicker IMG_9788.JPGpackage , lol built it for hunting in Alaska, plugged a moose with it in Sept 2014 using a Cutting Edge 320 gr MTH at 2800 fps, IT WORKED
 

Swamplord

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Also did a 30 cal, 8mm and 338 not in pic, did get 416 and 423 cal reamers but never got around to building them, currently have a 408 cal build in progress, have been bitten and smitten by the .408 caliber
 

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badassgunworks

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In the old days they made cases with a steel casehead and a threaded on brass body and they called them
Steelhead cases.
I might be wrong on this but there was talk about 10 years ago about Dave Tooley making a batch up for the 1000 yard Benchrest crowd.

I would think Hoffman Metals in Northern California could make the caseheads if someone could draw them up.
too much of a head ache de priming cleaning dis summular alloys etc guys have made bmg cases with standard mag primers and had no delaid ignition issues totally different then installing a bushing to use magnum primers the standard flash hole is to big it reduceses the fuse time and no back pressure so the blast in not intensified just a pop that turns into a poop
 
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Lynn Jr

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My reply to Theis was about going to higher pressure loads without destroying the brass not about ignition. The Steelhead cases allowed the primer pockets to survive loads that destroy brass caseheads.
Years ago I tried the Fed 215 M primer in a 50 case and saw no benefit.
I have tried M48A1 Spotter-Tracer flashtubes as well.
I think poster Hoffer was going to make some up with two purposes in mind. One was to use up some case volume and the other was frontal ignition.
Today the shooters using the 375 Cheytac case and CCI primers have ignition problems.
You can use small rifle primers in the Remington URBR brass 308 or the newer Lapua brass and have ignition problems.
The winningest round in 1000 yard Benchrest the 300 Ackley need a Fed 215 to avoid hangfires on most powders.
 

THEIS

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Today the shooters using the 375 Cheytac case and CCI primers have ignition problems.
Hi,

But going to a larger primer didn't/doesn't solve that ignition vs pressure issue in the 375CT either though.
Going to a larger primer in the Cheytac case created a shitload of other problems. (Because it was done to improve a single issue and not overall issue)
BMG primers in the Cheytac cases were HORRIBLE..caused all kinds of pressure problems, burned holes in side of cases, etc.


Sincerely,
Theis
 
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Swamplord

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Isn't case fill (or lack of) the direct cause of delayed ignition ? overly voluminous cases have that issue when heavy bullets are used with powder charges that don't fill the case up leaving a lot of air space, going to a lighter bullet and upping the charge for better case fill eliminate hang fires with the same primers ..... and more powder
 
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badassgunworks

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Isn't case fill (or lack of) the direct cause of delayed ignition ? overly voluminous cases have that issue when heavy bullets are used with powder charges that don't fill the case up leaving a lot of air space, going to a lighter bullet and upping the charge for better case fill eliminate hang fires with the same primers ..... and more powder
100 % correct
 

Lynn Jr

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The guys running the 375 CheyTac using Fed 215 primers don't have any issues.
In the state's they were hard to find for a while so many were forced to use the CCI.
No other changes to the load powder or bullet weight were made. Now that the primers are making a comeback everyone is stocking up.
 

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Lynn Jr

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On the 300 Ackley which is just the 300 Weatherby with the double radius shoulder converted to a 40 degree Ackley light powder charges cause detonation issues.
If you tilt the round so all the powder is against the heel of the bullet it will lock up the bolt.
 

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Well...if we are going back to the drawing board in general on this thing. I think we should first recognize the biggest limiting factor in the equation, which is the human neuro-musculoskeletal system. There is going to be a limitation that our biology will tolerate in terms of percussive force. Otherwise we would all be able to shoot shoulder fired M256's. This factor would be my deciding factor in determining my target mass for the projectile. Next would be form factor of the mass, which would determine my caliber. From there determine the capacity needed to push that mass 3000 fps +/- 200 fps. This seems to be the sweet spot for ballistic advantage and barrel metallurgy limitations for longer term consistency, i.e. barrel life. Next, we take an already known efficient case design and we scale it to size of our caliber and capacity targets. This would give us larger bolt faces. So instead of going longer in case design (which elongates from the source of ignition) why don't we keep the same efficient designs that we know work, just scale them to our target limitations. Thus, possibly solving brass flow and ignition issues. Heck, with ELR it's not like we have to worry about magazine size limitations, so why stay within the standardized bolt face limitations? Short and fat sounds sexy anyway... right?
 
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Squibbler

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The guys running the 375 CheyTac using Fed 215 primers don't have any issues.
In the state's they were hard to find for a while so many were forced to use the CCI.
No other changes to the load powder or bullet weight were made. Now that the primers are making a comeback everyone is stocking up.

I made sure to stock up too:cool:
 

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badassgunworks

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Well...if we are going back to the drawing board in general on this thing. I think we should first recognize the biggest limiting factor in the equation, which is the human neuro-musculoskeletal system. There is going to be a limitation that our biology will tolerate in terms of percussive force. Otherwise we would all be able to shoot shoulder fired M256's. This factor would be my deciding factor in determining my target mass for the projectile. Next would be form factor of the mass, which would determine my caliber. From there determine the capacity needed to push that mass 3000 fps +/- 200 fps. This seems to be the sweet spot for ballistic advantage and barrel metallurgy limitations for longer term consistency, i.e. barrel life. Next, we take an already known efficient case design and we scale it to size of our caliber and capacity targets. This would give us larger bolt faces. So instead of going longer in case design (which elongates from the source of ignition) why don't we keep the same efficient designs that we know work, just scale them to our target limitations. Thus, possibly solving brass flow and ignition issues. Heck, with ELR it's not like we have to worry about magazine size limitations, so why stay within the standardized bolt face limitations? Short and fat sounds sexy anyway... right?
well that's what we have done with the ex-nihilo based cartridges column is extreme in diameter and face is not any know existing size. between the cheytac and bmg in diameter face. that's one of the reasons the new action design and pressure that we will be running require a stronger action. but 3200 fps is not going to be the limits of velocity recoil is not a problem with a brake and 50 lb rifle
 
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well that's what we have done with the ex-nihilo based cartridges column is extreme in diameter and face is not any know existing size. between the cheytac and bmg in diameter face. that's one of the reasons the new action design and pressure that we will be running require a stronger action. but 3200 fps is not going to be the limits of velocity recoil is not a problem with a brake and 50 lb rifle


Way cool!.....tell me more!!!!
 

THEIS

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Hi,

I think we should be aiming for 4k velocities and if to do that requires stronger actions and higher cartridge pressures with better cartridge designs.....then so be it.
At some point we are going to have to enlarge our sandbox if we keep wanting to go past our sandbox, right?
We want what is over there but we want to get it by keeping what we have......IMO we have pretty much maxed that philosophy out.

Sincerely,
Theis
 

DAVETOOLEY

Gunny Sergeant
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Jun 14, 2009
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Theis
In the old days they made cases with a steel casehead and a threaded on brass body and they called them
Steelhead cases.
I might be wrong on this but there was talk about 10 years ago about Dave Tooley making a batch up for the 1000 yard Benchrest crowd.

I would think Hoffman Metals in Northern California could make the caseheads if someone could draw them up.
It wasn't me. Jamie Cass did it. He played with it for a year trying to make heavy 22's competitive.