Negligent Discharges Need To Stop!

hookedonbrass

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here is a scenario that happened out our club match this past weekend:

shooting off a tank trap. First squad to shoot it that day. First shooter of the stage sets his game changer on the top leg of the tank trap and sets his rifle on it. as soon as he puts his hand on top of his scope to put some downward pressure on his rifle, the tank trap collapses a good 6 inches or more. it basically wasn't "settled" down all the way and when pressure was applied - it finally settled.

thankfully - shooter had his finger outside of the trigger guard because he wasn't ready to shoot yet. however, that tank trap could have easily "decided" to fall when he was on target and finger on trigger about to break a shot, which would have almost surely resulted in the trigger being pulled and the round going somewhere he wasn't aiming.

i personally think the lesson from this is for the MD's to be entirely sure of the integrity of the props. because it could lead to what i would consider an ACTUAL "accidental" discharge.

There was no way for shooter to know the tank trap wasn't "settled". you aren't allowed to go touching and setting up on the props before you shoot. we have to trust that what we are shooting off of is "stable", meaning it's not going to fall over or collapse on us under completely normal use.

just some food for thought.
 

kthomas

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You specifically commented on the safety of my triggers and if you look back you will see the person that started this post quoted me about how the safety culture is changing. So you can to hell. I’ve even contributed pictures such as this which is how rifles should be staged. This entire thread is a bunch of weekend warriors that probably don’t even shoot PRS throwing in there opinions on something they know nothing about.
Weird post. PRS is full of "weekend warriors" - thats kind of the point of the sport in all reality. Its a hobby, not a job or profession. And I say this as someone who shoots PRS matches.

I don't agree with mandatory minimum trigger weights, but there definitely needs to be a step change in the safety culture of the sport.
 
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lte82

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I don't agree with mandatory minimum trigger weights
Yep. Trigger weight has nothing to do with safety. It's someone dropping a loaded weapon, or walking off the line with a round chambered, or chambering a round and closing the bolt without actually being "on target" ready to fire. Once you are on the gun ready to go, what's the difference?

I'll even argue that lighter triggers improves safety via increased shot consistency. That's why we run light triggers right? Improved shot consistency means misses are closer to the target and more impacts on target. Advocating for heavier triggers to alleviate an accidental trigger press while reducing accuracy and consistency for the other 99.99% of rounds being sent down range is the wrong approach and IMO reduces safety down range of the target.
 

brianf

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i think it was suggested before but what about a drop test.
the weight doesnt matter if proper technique is had, but maybe a test to make sure the super light triggers are safe?

just thinking outside the box
 

bschneiderheinze

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here is a scenario that happened out our club match this past weekend:

shooting off a tank trap. First squad to shoot it that day. First shooter of the stage sets his game changer on the top leg of the tank trap and sets his rifle on it. as soon as he puts his hand on top of his scope to put some downward pressure on his rifle, the tank trap collapses a good 6 inches or more. it basically wasn't "settled" down all the way and when pressure was applied - it finally settled.

thankfully - shooter had his finger outside of the trigger guard because he wasn't ready to shoot yet. however, that tank trap could have easily "decided" to fall when he was on target and finger on trigger about to break a shot, which would have almost surely resulted in the trigger being pulled and the round going somewhere he wasn't aiming.

i personally think the lesson from this is for the MD's to be entirely sure of the integrity of the props. because it could lead to what i would consider an ACTUAL "accidental" discharge.

There was no way for shooter to know the tank trap wasn't "settled". you aren't allowed to go touching and setting up on the props before you shoot. we have to trust that what we are shooting off of is "stable", meaning it's not going to fall over or collapse on us under completely normal use.

just some food for thought.
Completely agree with this. In the same regard some of the props are getting ridiculous two weeks ago we shot off a gate if you weren’t tall enough to reach the top you got an unstable step ladder to climb on and climb down well on the clock. I refused to do it because it wasn’t safe and told them to give me a zero for those two points. I understand the sports evolving but instead of coming with more and more ridiculous things to shoot off why not make the targets smaller to make it more competitive.
 

kthomas

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The issue is rarely light triggers, or triggers are mechanically "unsafe". The issues are people not following proper safety protocols.

Such as the following:
  • "sky loading" rounds - closing bolts when the sights are not on target. Sometimes when they are not even in the same hemisphere. The more experienced/"jersey" shooters are commonly very guilty of this. Common practice amongst some to shave some time off the clock.
  • Keeping bolts closed in staging areas, sometimes even with magazines in. In windy and dusty areas, some shooters will keep their bolts closed to keep dust out of the action. Again, some of the more experienced shooters are guilty of this.
  • Flagging people/not keeping rifle pointed in safe direction. Most commonly seen when shooters are moving their rifles from stage to stage. Usually the more inexperienced shooters are guilty of this.
  • Trigger on finger when not ready to send one. You can argue that light triggers can be a factor, but ultimately if the finger is not on the trigger, the rifle shouldn't go off.
I've seen all of the above LOTS. It's laughable when people suggest that the inexperienced shooters are the biggest problem. Usually, it's because they are new, and may not really know better or understand fully what they are doing - those people can be easily corrected. IMO, the experienced shooters that do know better but don't follow some of the above for their own benefit is a lot more troubling.

We need to start penalizing and calling people out, including the "top shooters", and have a step change in mentality on how we perceive safety and creating a culture of accountability. Nothing is going to change unless we start holding people accountable - especially the "top shooters" that people are generally afraid to call out.
 

The_Count

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Something I've gotten in the habit of doing is to close and reopen my bolt, after removing the magazine and while on the shooting line, each time I complete a stage. I follow this up with a ECI that has elastic on it to close the bolt.

Maybe what should be required is the same thing as IDPA. Return the bolt to battery and pull the trigger.
 

brianf

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how about mandatory orange/red plastic magazines that only fit with bolt open.
use them like a action flag
between stages or when sitting around your rifle needs a big chink of orange plastic hanging out if it
cant remove until set up on stage
noticeable, cheap
 

bschneiderheinze

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how about mandatory orange/red plastic magazines that only fit with bolt open.
use them like a action flag
between stages or when sitting around your rifle needs a big chink of orange plastic hanging out if it
cant remove until set up on stage
noticeable, cheap
They work bolt won’t close I love them I hate shoving plastic down my barrel but PRS won’t approve bolt blocks and someone told me last weekend Jim See wouldn’t allow them at a NRL match which I thought they were approved for
 

Tx_Aggie

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how about mandatory orange/red plastic magazines that only fit with bolt open.
use them like a action flag
between stages or when sitting around your rifle needs a big chink of orange plastic hanging out if it
cant remove until set up on stage
noticeable, cheap
And you could easily have a live round sitting in the chamber in front of that big chunk of orange plastic.

There's another thread "how to own an ND" where a shooter talks about an ND that occurred because he loaded a round at the end of the stage and when he opened the bolt it remained in the chamber.
 
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bschneiderheinze

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And that’s why it’s a shit show. Lol
Exactly they can’t approve a safety product that in all aspects is better than a eci because it doesn’t confirm there isn’t a round in the chamber. I don’t know how many times chamber flags have dropped off on me. I’ve never lost my bolt block. I guarantee you can still put a chamber flag on a rifle with a round in the chamber. Which is better a chamber flag flying off and a bolt closing when your walking around with a round in the chamber or round being in the chamber after you remove your bolt block and are on the stage ready to shoot.
 

bschneiderheinze

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And you could easily have a live round sitting in the chamber in front of that big chunk of orange plastic.

There's another thread "how to own an ND" where a shooter talks about an ND that occurred because he loaded a round at the end of the stage and when he opened the bolt it remained in the chamber.
If you use a bolt block properly there is no way to cause a ND at the beginning of the stage I pull out the block and put in my magazine my bolt is not going anywhere. If there is a round in the chamber when I’m on target and close my bolt I’m going to have a FTF. When done with the stage I immediately remove my mag and put in my bolt blockin. You can’t force the bolt forward.
 

Tx_Aggie

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If you use a bolt block properly there is no way to cause a ND at the beginning of the stage I pull out the block and put in my magazine my bolt is not going anywhere. If there is a round in the chamber when I’m on target and close my bolt I’m going to have a FTF. When done with the stage I immediately remove my mag and put in my bolt blockin. You can’t force the bolt forward.
You're basically arguing that a rifle with a loaded chamber is safe (or "safe enough" :unsure:) as long as it has a plastic bolt block inserted into the mag well.

Got it.
 
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bschneiderheinze

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Sorry I’m done I don’t argue with people that are mentally challenged I argued safer and I said you could install a chamber flag with round in the chamber not everyone shoves them clear up their bung hole. I’ve seen magnetic ones that just stick to the side. Your assuming everyone uses chamber flags correctly NOT the case. It’s hard to use a bolt block wrong. You keep shoving plastic down her hot chamber. I’ll use my bolt block.👍
 

Tx_Aggie

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Sorry I’m done I don’t argue with people that are mentally challenged I argued safer and I said you could install a chamber flag with round in the chamber not everyone shoves them clear up their bung hole. I’ve seen magnetic ones that just stick to the side. Your assuming everyone uses chamber flags correctly NOT the case. It’s hard to use a bolt block wrong. You keep shoving plastic down her hot chamber. I’ll use my bolt block.👍
No you just insult anyone who disagrees with you and won't concede that you're right and they're wrong.

This is the second or third time you've called me stupid and then exited a thread. Hell, you've done it at least once to another member in this thread.
 
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bschneiderheinze

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No you just insult anyone who disagrees with you and won't concede that you're right and they're wrong.

This is the second or third time you've called me stupid and then exited a thread. Hell, you've done it at least once to another member in this thread.
I’m not but hurt newb I’m not the one shoving chamber flags up my ass. I make to much an hour to deal with you. Shit you already owe around $150.
 

Tx_Aggie

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I’m not but hurt newb I’m not the one shoving chamber flags up my ass. I make to much an hour to deal with you. Shit you already owe around $150.
I thought you were done with this thread... You're 41 years old and are trying to win an argument on the internet by calling be a "newb" and bragging about how much you make in an hour? Really?
 

THEIS

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I’m not but hurt newb I’m not the one shoving chamber flags up my ass. I make to much an hour to deal with you. Shit you already owe around $150.
Hi,

OT but you do work for the School System, right?
So you make that amount yet all we hear on TV is about how underpaid school system employees are?

Sincerely,
Theis
 
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Mike Casselton

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Hi,

OT but you do work for the School System, right?
So you make that amount yet all we hear on TV is about how underpaid school system employees are?

Sincerely,
Theis
If he does work for the school system, I think he should get his money back on his degree.
Can't spell, doesn't use punctuation properly.
Gym teacher?
 
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frost1235

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Considering the amount of help people give to new shooters, sharing wind calls, and sharing gear, it's disturbing to see people trying to push the acceptance of NDs as part of the sport. In any other shooting competition, an ND is usually grounds for a stage DQ if not a match DQ.

Honestly and logically, if you were in a secret squirrel situation, and launched a round at a teammate/bystander negligently, you'd be in jail. Competition wise, it's going to be a major barrier that will one day lead to the sport's plateau and decline.
 
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ND Precision Rifle

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Video is down, is it any where else?

They shouldn't happen, but they do. It all depends how the MD, RO, and Shooter handle the situation. A match DQ is appropriate.

I like how Jacob runs his matches down in Rifles Only. Mag out when moving from position to position.
If the shooters don't like it they don't have to come to the match. Safety is Numero Uno.



The ND is the focus of this thread, but how about the shooter lying about it? That pisses a guy off equally, That information should be given to the MD and the shooter should get 0 points for the match for lying.
 
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Cjwise5

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Video is down, is it any where else?

They shouldn't happen, but they do. It all depends how the MD, RO, and Shooter handle the situation. A match DQ is appropriate.

I like how Jacob runs his matches down in Rifles Only. Mag out when moving from position to position.
If the shooters don't like it they don't have to come to the match. Safety is Numero Uno.



The ND is the focus of this thread, but how about the shooter lying about it? That pisses a guy off equally, That information should be given to the MD and the shooter should get 0 points for the match for lying.
I removed the video. I explained why somewhere in the first few pages of this thread if you're interested.
 

frost1235

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I did paintball tournaments back in the day and that sport heavily relies on the honor system. We'd be the losers running gorpros and contour cams on our barrels for after match studies, and the amount of times players would hide a hit my covering themselves with old paint from the bunkers, or hiding the shot to wipe was obscene at NATIONAL tournaments.

That's what got myself, and MANY others out of it. What does it matter if you play by the rules and no one epse does? Lack of honor/integrity.


In PRS, lying about safety is the same thing in my book. You were careless, unaware, leading to a sending a round off unintentionally. You just tossed the PRECISION part of PRS out the window.

Maybe if you quickly acknowledge an ND, you could either just get DQ'd for that stage and or keep whatever points you had up to the ND, and get to continue shooting for the day.

Whereas if you try to hide it, you're done for the rest of the competition and the points you had for the day is subtracted from your overall score.

Harsh? Yeah it is. But a lack of integrity will SEVERELY effect the future of the sport.
 
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davere

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I did paintball tournaments back in the day and that sport heavily relies on the honor system. We'd be the losers running gorpros and contour cams on our barrels for after match studies, and the amount of times players would hide a hit my covering themselves with old paint from the bunkers, or hiding the shot to wipe was obscene at NATIONAL tournaments.

That's what got myself, and MANY others out of it. What does it matter if you play by the rules and no one epse does? Lack of honor/integrity.
I was playing paintball back when the semiauto markers were new, and not so great. A couple friends and I were running pump guns that could shoot lights out at 50y. There was a whole crew of guys running Tippman 68s (new semi-auto guns) in our area who were notorious for wiping paint. They were also friends with a bunch of the guys running the field, so they got away with it. We handled it our own way. Relentless head/neck shots after a wipe had a way of making those guys leave the field with hosed goggles and huge bruises. Fuck cheaters. We'd paint up their guns, too, which just led to further malfunctions for them.

On the thread topic, I still maintain the answer is proper RO'ing, proper match setup for safety (providing solid staging areas or rifle racks, etc), and everyone policing everyone. There need to be enough ROs with a clue on each stage to properly spot and watch the shooter. This can be done with 2 people on most stages, if they both have experience, but obviously three is better for big matches. The ROs and MD need to start sending people home when they fuck up, with no second chances. You muzzle someone, you leave. You're found with a staged or moving gun lacking a chamber flag, you go home. You light off a round when you're not on the gun and preparing to shoot, DQ.

When word gets around that the MDs are actually serious about safety, the behavior will change. When shooters start harassing other shooters about safety infractions - and taking a hard stance about it - behavior will change. It's not about trigger weights, or dialing turrets after a stage, or whatever. It's about a mindset and culture around safety. You can make all the rules you want, but if the MD and the rest of the match staff won't enforce the rules (equally, for all competitors regardless of what shirt they're wearing that day), any rule you make doesn't matter a bit.