Most accurate caliber out to 2200 yards.

jaybigboy34

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I know this may be a loaded question, but I am looking for what calibers stand out as being the most accurate out to no farther than 2200 yards, PLUS have above average barrel life. I know an ELR caliber probably doesn't have 308 barrel life so I am not suggesting that. This will be for target shooting only.

thanks
 

Skookum

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Sticking with factory cartridges, you are looking at one of the big 30's like 300 Norma Mag or 300 RUM or similar. Barrel life in these calibers might run between 800-1200 rounds give or take.

Stepping up to the 338's will get you there easier and with better barrel life, so 338 Norma Mag or 338 Lapua. This is an area of the shooting spectrum where wildcat cartridges actually outnumber factory stuff. When considering wildcats, the water gets extremely muddy because it opens up a whole new world.
 

steve123

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I know this may be a loaded question, but I am looking for what calibers stand out as being the most accurate out to no farther than 2200 yards, PLUS have above average barrel life. I know an ELR caliber probably doesn't have 308 barrel life so I am not suggesting that. This will be for target shooting only.

thanks
300PRC would be one to consider, when my 30-375R wildcat version was new it would touch shots at 100Y often with 240SMK and with 800 or so rounds through it it would do the same with 230 hybrids.

How much wind drift is happening and spotting misses in the dirt are strong considerations at those farther distances so the bigger cartridges have that over the 30 calibers. So what I'm getting at is hitting 1 to 1.5 moa steel doesn't come down to accuracy alone. A lot of catch22's in ELR.

I got about 1700 rounds out of my 30-375R barrel.
 

badassgunworks

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kind of a loaded question most accurate ? that depends on to many things.
 

badassgunworks

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well the 408 cheytac is very accurate if made, loaded, and built accurate with a quality scope and quality trigger with a top quality shooter. and transonic is way beyond 2200 yards that's why I stated most accurate ????
 

AIAW

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My vote would be 375 Cheytac. My DTA in 375CT with 375g Cutting Edge MTAC's is pretty damn impressive at those ranges. The hit percentage with even my 338LM (300g Scenar) is lower at ~2000 versus the 375. Simple physics apply though also here between the two, obviously.

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Lynn Jr

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My vote would be a 338 Lapua or 338 Lapua Ackley Improved.
The big 30's get it done but for spotting misses and ease of loading combined with barrel life it's hard to beat a 338 if your limit is 2200 yards.
The picture is of one of our 2000 yard shooters who uses a 300 win mag with no issues.
I have used 6 Dasher 6mm-06 300WSM 338 Norma Ackley Improved 338 Lapua 338 Lapua Ackley Improved 338 SnipeTac 375-50BMG and 50 BMG and for overall ease the 338 Lapua is hard to beat.
 

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b6graham

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i think the better question is what will your normal ranges be, not the furthest you may play at
 

GIXXER2000

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I currently am shooting a .338LM and and my hit rate is as good out 2600 yards as .375CT, 408CT, 338/375 SnipeTac 416 Barrett and 50 BMG. When shooting at those distance it come down more to the shooter then caliber. Knowing you dope reading the wind and having a good spotter are critical for success when shooting ELR. I know its tempting to chase the latest greatest caliber but really learning buy putting in the time pays off.
The downside to the .338LM is the bullet size currently .300 grains is the heaviest you can get rumor has Berger making a 326 ish grain bullet. With the small bullet its hard to see the splash of hits or misses 400 plus grain bullets are a lot easier to see.
 
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oneshot.onehit

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To answer your question for the most accurate caliber at 2200 and barrel and throat forgiving- 375 Cheytac or 416 is the most accurate with todays Bullets available when shooting in all conditions and under a time restraint.

GIXXER2000 claims any day his 338LM will shoot and hit the 2200 yard targets as easy as a 375, 416 and 50s I don’t really agree why? I’ve only seen a few folks shooting 338LMs versus 375 and up that could qualify when you take the best of the best ELR shooters and in normal winds or in unpredictable conditions try to hit small targets and limited rounds . If the original post is looking at a round that will be practical for buying ammo versus reloading and somewhat affordable while working “out to 2200” yards max then the 300 Norma and 338LM would be a good start. The 338LM would be a round to start reloading versus buying but the 375 is a serious contender in todays time versus starting new with the 338LM you gain so much more When you start to compare what is invested as far as components.

I’m not picking on GIXXER200 but only using his example of shooters ability and experience in relation to affordable and practical rounds to look at.

Cheers
Oneshot.onehit
JH
 

GIXXER2000

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My point is during match conditions multiple guys shooting .338LM have preformed as well as .375,416 and 50's out to 2616 yards. I think that is about the limit for a .338LM. If we were shooting 3000 yards or 2 miles the larger calibers are the way to go.
 
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Lynn Jr

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Yeah at our monthly 2054 yard matches the 338 Lapua and 338 Lapua Ackley Improved do extremely well.
I have paper targets to measure actual group size but so far we haven't used them.
At our next step at 2586 yards the bigger rounds dominate.


If you look at our terrain we shoot across a big canyon and our impact area in very limited in size so spotting misses is critical.
The bigger rounds kick up more debris so you can make corrections.
 

Gilly

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I guess “most accurate “ is very subjective which is why you have so many varying opinions here. I can’t add anything to that part but I’ll share my thoughts from working up to 2000 yards.

Personally if my max range was going to be 2200 yards I wouldn’t see any reason to shoot anything bigger than my 300 Norma. To date my 6.5 saum is almost as consistent hitting the plate as my 300 Norma, however its more sensitive in the wind. Both of them I feel like are very capable 2000 yard rifles on steel, and my Norma has more room to stretch it out. My buddy’s 7 saum is awesome at 2000 yards, as is his 338 lapua. I don’t fell like his lapua has that much edge on my 300 Norma at that range, I would argue my Norma is more consistent. We also have the advantage of being at 4200 feet above sea level and DA normally 3500 low end to 6000 high end. In my opinion for us anything over 338 or a .338 variant is overkill at 2000-2200 yards, just like my 300 Norma is overkill at 500-800 yards, I just don’t shoot it inside a half mile.

We are looking to build a 2 mile rifle 375 or 416, as we have access to land we can do it on. That rifle probably won’t see much work inside 1500 just because it will be a waste, we have other rifles to fill that gap. If I could only own one rifle 0-2200 yards I’d have a hard time choosing between 7 saum and 300 Norma they are lower recoil, thus more of a pleasure to shoot. Lower cost and better barrel life, therefore you can put more rounds down range. Rounds down range with a capable rifle/cartridge will beat a bigger rifle with less practice every day in my opinion.
 
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sandwarrior

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To boil it down, you need the heaviest highest BC bullet that you can shoot from a rifle that you can shoot. If you want to play with the serious long range guys, a 408, 416, 375 are going to be better, because with the right twisted barrels they can launch a heavier (which contributes to overall BC) bullet that can be formed into the most aerodynamic shape.

So, do you want to get that big? Or, are you wanting a rifle you can pack around and flop down behind it, with a bipod and get to 2200 yds.? That's really the first thing you need to figure out, is what level of rifle you want to get behind. And, how you get behind it? Tactical or Benchrest?

You can get to 2200 yds. with as small as a 6mm medium capacity cartridge. Will it be as effective as the "biggies?" No. But, you can easily flop down behind it and shoot that far. You don't get the weight you would with the bigger cartridges. You also don't have high costs associated with just getting your rounds made. You can find excellent 6mm, 6.5mm and 7mm, (even .257 cal now) bullets to reload with that make excellent 2000m cartridges. You can get "off the shelf 6mm and 6.5mm Creedmoor that is excellent.

When you narrow down the kind of shooting you want to do, that's when you'll find what'll suit your needs the best.
 
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Alpine 338

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I've pushed the limits with a bunch of calibers over the years, and one thing that I've noticed is there's this invisible line that once crossed, it makes it more difficult to be consistent, no matter the caliber. Obviously, bigger is better, or higher BC wins, but beyond that point, it will still be more difficult. My experience, at 7200-ft ASL, 70-deg temps, that invisible line is some where just short of a mile or ~1500-meters. That invisible line distance may be extended with calibers greater than 338?
 

jaybigboy34

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I guess “most accurate “ is very subjective which is why you have so many varying opinions here. I can’t add anything to that part but I’ll share my thoughts from working up to 2000 yards.

Personally if my max range was going to be 2200 yards I wouldn’t see any reason to shoot anything bigger than my 300 Norma. To date my 6.5 saum is almost as consistent hitting the plate as my 300 Norma, however its more sensitive in the wind. Both of them I feel like are very capable 2000 yard rifles on steel, and my Norma has more room to stretch it out. My buddy’s 7 saum is awesome at 2000 yards, as is his 338 lapua. I don’t fell like his lapua has that much edge on my 300 Norma at that range, I would argue my Norma is more consistent. We also have the advantage of being at 4200 feet above sea level and DA normally 3500 low end to 6000 high end. In my opinion for us anything over 338 or a .338 variant is overkill at 2000-2200 yards, just like my 300 Norma is overkill at 500-800 yards, I just don’t shoot it inside a half mile.

We are looking to build a 2 mile rifle 375 or 416, as we have access to land we can do it on. That rifle probably won’t see much work inside 1500 just because it will be a waste, we have other rifles to fill that gap. If I could only own one rifle 0-2200 yards I’d have a hard time choosing between 7 saum and 300 Norma they are lower recoil, thus more of a pleasure to shoot. Lower cost and better barrel life, therefore you can put more rounds down range. Rounds down range with a capable rifle/cartridge will beat a bigger rifle with less practice every day in my opinion.
What loads are you using for your 300 Norma mag bullets brass etc. Also how many rounds have you put down the barrel?
 

sandwarrior

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I've pushed the limits with a bunch of calibers over the years, and one thing that I've noticed is there's this invisible line that once crossed, it makes it more difficult to be consistent, no matter the caliber. Obviously, bigger is better, or higher BC wins, but beyond that point, it will still be more difficult. My experience, at 7200-ft ASL, 70-deg temps, that invisible line is some where just short of a mile or ~1500-meters. That invisible line distance may be extended with calibers greater than 338?
I think if you're following the Jim Boatwright posts he's talking about getting a bullet through the transonic region of flight. Litz is working on making the arrow sharper. Stability through that unstable area is what makes this life a challenge. It's been done and done well. We are at the point of making it past the transonic in a consistent way.

As noted in my post above, it's only those who pursue the higher degree of this endeavor. I, and many others, have hit at 1+ miles, only to be eclipsed by those going to two miles. Heavier and more stable bullets are what is bringing these bullets on target (the shooter as well of course) out past the one mile mark. Lighter bullets are doing it, heavier bullets are doing it more consistently.
 

Gilly

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What

What loads are you using for your 300 Norma mag bullets brass etc. Also how many rounds have you put down the barrel?
28” barrel 9 twist shooting the 230 smk at 2975. I’ve had it to 2,000 yards twice this last week and it’s a blast. Does it hit the steel as hard as 300 smk out of 338 lapua or 33xc? No. But also was at minimum just as consistent if not more so. In the 33xc defense it’s in early stages of finding a load.

I just fail to see why a 375 Cheytac and up is needed at 2200 yards unless cost is of no concern.
 
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THEIS

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I just fail to see why a 375 Cheytac and up is needed at 2200 yards unless cost is of no concern.
Hi,

I don't think people see it as "needed" but rather they see is as an option that gives them a larger error budget yet still be on target.
The 375CT shooter can "blow" a wind call and have better chance to still be on target at 2200 yards than the shooter with the 300NM, etc.

Kind of same principle of saying:
Why do people need all the 5-25 and 7-35 power optics and 224Valk, 6.5CM, etc etc for their 1000 yard rifles because service rifle shooters do it with a 223 and open sights.

Sincerely,
Theis
 

Gilly

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Hi,

I don't think people see it as "needed" but rather they see is as an option that gives them a larger error budget yet still be on target.
The 375CT shooter can "blow" a wind call and have better chance to still be on target at 2200 yards than the shooter with the 300NM, etc.

Kind of same principle of saying:
Why do people need all the 5-25 and 7-35 power optics and 224Valk, 6.5CM, etc etc for their 1000 yard rifles because service rifle shooters do it with a 223 and open sights.

Sincerely,
Theis
Fair enough
 

GTOJOSH

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http://www.anzioironworks.com/MAG-FED-20MM-RIFLE.htm
Just pick up one of those bad boys and stretch the legs out to 5000 yards. Your local range will not mind at all if you come packing her in.

In all seriousness though, unless you are shooting alone with no one to watch for hits/misses or call wind I'd +1 for the 300 NM also. Excelent caliber for all around today's distance shooting in your range mentioned.
If you are shooting alone, get a shooting buddy- even my wife will call shots for 45 minutes if I let her shoot too unless it's January.
Oh, it IS January...
Shooting on hold, back to reloading.
 
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THEIS

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http://www.anzioironworks.com/MAG-FED-20MM-RIFLE.htm
Just pick up one of those bad boys and stretch the legs out to 5000 yards..
Hi,

IF only that distance was achievable with it.......Sadly it is not though :(

Funny how one of the foremost experts on 20mm shoulder fired rifles will only advertise 1800m for their 20x110 but some how Anzio can squeeze out another 2976 yards from the same cartridge :)

Sincerely,
Theis
 
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sandwarrior

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Hi,

IF only that distance was achievable with it.......Sadly it is not though :(

Funny how one of the foremost experts on 20mm shoulder fired rifles will only advertise 1800m for their 20x110 but some how Anzio can squeeze out another 2976 yards from the same cartridge :)

Sincerely,
Theis
I think he was being facetious.:unsure:

It takes a lot to shoot a weapon that heavy of a caliber, I don't care how much crap is on it. One of the issues I had with my .300 WM with that kind of brake was the blast was bad enough to give me nosebleeds. Until I found a facemask that would take the brunt of that, it wasn't all that fun to shoot. Until I figured out what all I needed to mitigate the recoil, I'd then need to figure out how to mitigate the blast.
 

THEIS

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Hi,

Yea I am sure GTO was being facetious lol, I was poking fun in the fact that Anzio advertises that 5000 yard range :).

Damn I have never had blast bad enough to cause nosebleeds....what brake did you have?

Suppressors and blast shields are saviors in regards to damn blast of big boomers for sure!!

Sincerely,
Theis
 

sandwarrior

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5000 is worth laughing at...at least until we get there.

It was the Armalite brake. A lot of backward directed blast. Had the shield been a little wider and less angled back it might have been better. The funny thing is what I found that worked was using a neoprene fasemask. Mine was on sale and didn't have the little breathing holes in it. Stopped the blast issues rather well.

It near completely mitigated recoil though.:) At first I handled like I would any other .300 mag. When I realized it wasn't kicking I pared down all my stuff until I finally got where I could hold the recoil with my thumb and the torque with the top of my middle finger against the pistol grip. Amazing how much it snuffed it.
 

AIAW

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I got a nosebleed once from my TAC-50, but that was like a 70 round outing and I already had some bad sinus/allergies beforehand. No doubt, that bad boy cleared them up. Slightly opening your mouth does help a bit over time with the overpressure, but even if you don't it's no big deal.
 

sandwarrior

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I got a nosebleed once from my TAC-50, but that was like a 70 round outing and I already had some bad sinus/allergies beforehand. No doubt, that bad boy cleared them up. Slightly opening your mouth does help a bit over time with the overpressure, but even if you don't it's no big deal.
Part of my problem was I often stood to the side while I let the kids, or someone on the range, shoot it.
 
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7mmFanBoy

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shoot 50 bmg blast tube concusion would knock my glass off felt like someone hit in the face. keep checking my nose see if was bleeding stopped after couple rounds. Some off those shark brakes blast does hit your face pretty hard. Like ar50 tank brake pretty effective recoil & blast away from shooter

Iam pretty consistent with my 7mm mag 1700 yards not much luck yet with other bigger bore guns out to that distance. Humidity in Wisconsin 80% average makes pretty hard on spotting past 2000 yards
 
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GTOJOSH

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Hi,

Yea I am sure GTO was being facetious lol, I was poking fun in the fact that Anzio advertises that 5000 yard range :).

Damn I have never had blast bad enough to cause nosebleeds....what brake did you have?

Suppressors and blast shields are saviors in regards to damn blast of big boomers for sure!!

Sincerely,
Theis

Would it be weird if I received a PM telling me I'd do well to capitalize "in all seriousness though"?
Somehow I can see my English teacher pounding away at the keyboard correcting my posts as "passive voice influxuations not implying intended meanings or sarcasm" in all this...
IN ALL SERIOUSNESS THOUGH I've heard Anzio has taken notice of the NRL22 success and is developing a 22mm version for that platform in hopes of dominating the playing field.
{is that better?... I may have Still missed the Sarcasam markers. I'll get it though. I'll get it.}
 

Sandow the Heretic

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So this is one of the oddball stats that I ran for my own interests a while back and never really put out cause its meaning is slightly dubious but here goes.

In Ko2M 2018 the average score for targets out to 2095 yards was 9.6% higher with a 416 than a 375. I don't feel like I had enough 460 or 50 shooters to get an average that means anything. At longer ranges it gets a lot worse for the 375 scores but the 416 sample size isn't high enough for my tastes.

What we see is a huge difference in impacts off target that can be spotted from the line. 416 is going to be less sensitive to the wind and will easily stay supersonic to 2 miles. Some 416 shooters are also able to drop an external MOA adjustment need as they only have to be able to adjust from 1400 to 3500. That is asking a lot of a bullet and scope in 375.

Is 416 needed for 2000 yards? No, but it will probably give you more wiggle room that a 338.

-Alex
 
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Chrazy-Chris

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300PRC would be one to consider, when my 30-375R wildcat version was new it would touch shots at 100Y often with 240SMK and with 800 or so rounds through it it would do the same with 230 hybrids.
Steve,
What twist rate did you use in your 30-375? I'm planning a 300 PRC build and would like to use the 230 hybrids. There's a lot of conflicting information out there on what twist rate is best.
Thanks!
Chris
 

SIDS01

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So this is one of the oddball stats that I ran for my own interests a while back and never really put out cause its meaning is slightly dubious but here goes.

In Ko2M 2018 the average score for targets out to 2095 yards was 9.6% higher with a 416 than a 375. I don't feel like I had enough 460 or 50 shooters to get an average that means anything. At longer ranges it gets a lot worse for the 375 scores but the 416 sample size isn't high enough for my tastes.

What we see is a huge difference in impacts off target that can be spotted from the line. 416 is going to be less sensitive to the wind and will easily stay supersonic to 2 miles. Some 416 shooters are also able to drop an external MOA adjustment need as they only have to be able to adjust from 1400 to 3500. That is asking a lot of a bullet and scope in 375.

Is 416 needed for 2000 yards? No, but it will probably give you more wiggle room that a 338.

-Alex
I did a similar analysis and came to the conclusion that the single largest determinant of 2018 KO2M success was first round shooting order.

KO2M Day 1 Scores.JPG

In terms of making the top 10, shooting later on the second day appears to have been a significant advantage. It's hard to draw conclusions about what cartridge is best because of the small overall sample size. The 375CT has an bias for making the top 10 because it's over represented compared to the 416 and 375/50. It has a bias downwards in the overall average performance because it's the cheapest and most accessible of the 3 to shoot and more of the clueless are shooting it.

Using the 400 grain lazer for the 375 and the 500 for the 416, assuming 3100 fps for both, AB gives 2450 yards for the 375 to go transonic and 2650 for the 416 at 24"Hga. The 375 hits Mach 1 at 2850 yards. 3100 yards for the 416. My take on the best indicator for scoring potential is TOF. At 3500 yards its 6.47 seconds for the 375 and 6.151 seconds for the 416, not a huge difference.

I think the 416 is arguably the "best" of the currently available rounds, but it's a serious step up in cost for an insignificant in the grand scheme of things performance bump. Similarly, the 375 is pretty much a solids only proposition and is a serious step up in cost from the 338 and the 300 Hybrid. Litz ran step for step with the 375 Lethal Mag using a 338 Edge and 300 Hybrid on the second day of the 2016 event.

My point is there are much larger issues determining hit percentages than the "best" cartridge.
 

Sandow the Heretic

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That is interesting and it is possible that there were favorable wind conditions towards the end of day two. I'll go back and look at the video. Usually the best conditions are early in the day and they get worse from there. I ran the same plot for 2017 and Derek crushed while there was overall poor shooting happening around him so in the end I'm not sure either show much more that random clustering.

1549639245690.png

It is only after running these numbers that I realized that my chart is using the final scores rather than the prelim scores. which would be even less profound.

-Alex
 

SIDS01

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I think we can add shooter skill and preparation to the list of things that are far more important than the "best" cartridge.

The many exceptional and well prepared shooters that finish mid pack suggests luck of the draw on conditions can do in even the best.

How many of your team mates you had before you as wind bitches would be another interesting one to look at.

Derek was shooting a straight 375 CT well below 3000 fps iirc.

I like the prelim scores because the number of shooters is higher and everybody shot the same number of targets, making the stats more relevant.

As the number of events increases, we'll learn more about what works.
 

Sandow the Heretic

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As the number of events increases, we'll learn more about what works.
Yeah, that is pretty much the reality of it.

As far as well prepared shooters goes, the number of people that have ever practiced with their team, let alone at these distances is a big part of it. The teams that win shoot together and practice. A shooter that has no real change to work with their spotter is at a huge disadvantage as are the shooters that can't practice past a mile.

Walt and I can pretty much guess at placement just listening to spotter/shooter communication. If a spotter says "you were just a bit off to the left and a little low", that shooter isn't going anywhere.

-Alex
 

jasent

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Yeah, that is pretty much the reality of it.

As far as well prepared shooters goes, the number of people that have ever practiced with their team, let alone at these distances is a big part of it. The teams that win shoot together and practice. A shooter that has no real change to work with their spotter is at a huge disadvantage as are the shooters that can't practice past a mile.

Walt and I can pretty much guess at placement just listening to spotter/shooter communication. If a spotter says "you were just a bit off to the left and a little low", that shooter isn't going anywhere.

-Alex
I would agree with this 100%. With out good spotter communication your considerably handicapped.
 

Lynn Jr

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His stats are out to about 2100. Mine included data from out to 3500 as well.

-Alex
The problem with those stats and I love stats is all those shooters were anticipating what is needed for 3500+ yards.
Tell that same group the limit is 2200 yards and there chamberings might have been different?
 
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