Monthly Sporting Rifle match RATON NM

delfuego

Belieber
Belligerents
Aug 21, 2011
691
154
49
PHX AZ
No spotting scopes. They will explain it at the safety brief on Sunday AM. They don't want anyone to have an "unfair advantage" over other shooters. They also don't want 50 shooters bringing 80x spotters. You really only need 8x-10x binos. People will be happy to loan you stuff and since it's your first SRM they will put you with some veterans. It's a fun, friend, "Field Style" match and I'm sure you will enjoy it. You can reach out to @rmfield or @stevenc23 for more specifics.
 

rmfield

Sergeant
Belligerents
Apr 9, 2006
142
44
34
Littleton, Colorado
Binoculars are recommended, but not required equipment for the match. It is permissible (and very common) for shooters to share binocs with others in their squad.

However, if you would like a waiver from the rule due to your vision disability, I suggest that you make your request directly with the match director. Contact info is available on the website.
 

Mordamer

Professional Know It All
Belligerents
May 11, 2010
801
324
69
Hooker, OK
Binoculars are recommended, but not required equipment for the match. It is permissible (and very common) for shooters to share binocs with others in their squad.

However, if you would like a waiver from the rule due to your vision disability, I suggest that you make your request directly with the match director. Contact info is available on the website.
Not a big deal. I'll leave the spotting scope at home.
 

AIS

Private
Belligerents
Nov 8, 2010
98
11
12
43
SWK
Yeah I finally seen the max number deal. That filling up a month in advance is going to make it hard for us with funny schedules but it’s great that they got 50 guys showing up.
 

Alpine 338

Lumberjack
Belligerents
Jun 26, 2010
1,206
223
169
NW Colorado
With the match registration filling up in one day, any chance you could open up another 10-slots? Person who was going to carpool with me is on the wait list.
 

Mordamer

Professional Know It All
Belligerents
May 11, 2010
801
324
69
Hooker, OK
The match already lasted until about 3:00 PM this last time. The more people the better, but squads need to speed things up. Our squad of 5 this last month finished at about 1:30 PM and I never felt rushed during the day. Then we have to stand around waiting for 1.5 hours for people to finish up. If they up the shooter number the match will drag on for at least another hour I'm guessing. I wonder if the time limits have ever been reduced in the past lower than 4 minutes per stage?
 

Alpine 338

Lumberjack
Belligerents
Jun 26, 2010
1,206
223
169
NW Colorado
The match already lasted until about 3:00 PM this last time. The more people the better, but squads need to speed things up. Our squad of 5 this last month finished at about 1:30 PM and I never felt rushed during the day. Then we have to stand around waiting for 1.5 hours for people to finish up. If they up the shooter number the match will drag on for at least another hour I'm guessing. I wonder if the time limits have ever been reduced in the past lower than 4 minutes per stage?
Mike has stressed, time and time again about squad efficiency i.e. next person in line should be ready to shoot. However, some people/squads struggle with this. I don't know why it's so difficult to be ready to shoot if you're next in line? This is the major problem with some squads moving so slow, and finishing late.
 

D_TROS

instaG= hashtagdorgan
Belligerents
Aug 19, 2010
1,576
679
219
North Denver, CO
This limit is a joke. Ive shot the match with over 80 and have never been done after 330. 5 man squads??? wow what a joke. there is now no way to sign up because I don't sit on my computer on sunday afternoon. 3rd month in a row I got skunked because I didn't sign up the minute it opened.

Used to be my favorite match. Now lazy people that don't want their afternoon ruined have completely ruined it. What a joke.

***and as proven by above post, 5 man squads don't mean you will get done earlier***

-Maybe block people from signing up that signed up the month before for a couple weeks to allow people that havnt got in??
-Maybe have an experienced shooter as a squad leader hurry things?? I have been in squads of 10 people on a 10 stage match done by 1
-Maybe ask if you are a new shooter don't allow a whole squad of them to be together

A little homework will be WAAAAY more effective than limiting shooters.


Regards, an irritated shooter.
Dorgan
 
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c ward

Sergeant of the Hide
Belligerents
Sep 23, 2005
499
33
34
Denver Co.
Hate to disagree Dorgan but there have never been more than 73 shooters and that only happened 2 times , I was present at both . Both times we did not finish up and leave the range until after 18:00 .
 

SAPenguin

Private
Belligerents
Jan 25, 2013
115
21
22
39
Denver, CO
-Maybe block people from signing up that signed up the month before for a couple weeks to allow people that havnt got in??
-Maybe have an experienced shooter as a squad leader hurry things?? I have been in squads of 10 people on a 10 stage match done by 1
-Maybe ask if you are a new shooter don't allow a whole squad of them to be together

A little homework will be WAAAAY more effective than limiting shooters.


Regards, an irritated shooter.
Dorgan
The last two items you mention are already in place, have been for a while.
 

SAPenguin

Private
Belligerents
Jan 25, 2013
115
21
22
39
Denver, CO
Used to be my favorite match. Now lazy people that don't want their afternoon ruined have completely ruined it. What a joke.



Regards, an irritated shooter.
Dorgan

For clarity, who are you referring to as the lazy people? The match directors / organizers?
 

c ward

Sergeant of the Hide
Belligerents
Sep 23, 2005
499
33
34
Denver Co.
The other thing I distinctly remember happening more than once were people leaving early so as to not miss some batch of self important millionaires play some sports ball game , typically the same people that never help with set up or tear down or target / course maintenance.

Pretty sure if the match went the mercenary route like most of the matches around the country and the match staff drew a paycheck and could take the day after off instead of going to work at 5AM it wouldn't be as much of an issue . The match staff at SRM has always been volunteers and payed the same entry fees as everybody else .

To put a point on the lack of support of the shooters at the match is Steve's post above looking for volunteers to help with set up .
 
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D_TROS

instaG= hashtagdorgan
Belligerents
Aug 19, 2010
1,576
679
219
North Denver, CO
Hate to disagree Dorgan but there have never been more than 73 shooters and that only happened 2 times , I was present at both . Both times we did not finish up and leave the range until after 18:00 .
Hmmm fair enough CW. guess I forget all squads don't fill evenly and we had a squad of 8 and was done well before 3.


The last two items you mention are already in place, have been for a while.
And yet a squad of 5 cant finish shooting by 3?
Obviously not verified/enforced...?


Just throwing ideas out to enable people to get to shoot. Squads of 5 should be done by 130 absolutely latest. A reasonable goal of everyone for a monthly match being done by 3 is a good one, which limiting squads to 5 is way overkill.

But maybe not if as mentioned above it cant be organized to be done by 3 WITH squads of 5...


Guess I can write this match off as everyone rushes to fill the slot as a placeholder with NO penalty for dropping out last minute. Why get on a waitlist to be told night before a spot opened?


Pity party over. Just disappointed I guess.,
DT
 
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Wormydog1724

Working on my TyperSnyper PHD
Belligerents
Jun 26, 2013
240
194
49
I signed up yesterday, Monday, afternoon (1:35 ct) and there were still several spots open, I see it is full now.
Last month I signed up two weeks after it opened and there were a lot of spots available.
There's currently eight FNG's and eight 1-timers that managed to get signed up before it filled.

I suggested to a few people on Sunday about raising the number to 60 and was looked at like I had a penis growing from my forehead. Reducing the time limit to 3 minutes could help. Also if people would actually use the stopwatch and adhere to the time limit already in place. We were never rushed at all on Sunday and only once did the squad behind us get to us before our last shooter had finished. We bumped into the squad in front of us most of the day but only to just see the last shooter fire the last couple of rounds. Wasn't a big deal. A couple months ago there were two squads waiting behind one squad all day long, that was shitty because I was in one of the waiting squads but we were still out of there by 3:00 iirc.

This is a great match and I'll continue to shoot in it, even if it means signing up for the next one on my 3.5hr drive back to Texas.

Regards, a greatful shooter.
JC
 
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stevenc23

Full Member
Belligerents
Oct 21, 2013
725
112
49
Denver, CO
Now lazy people that don't want their afternoon ruined have completely ruined it. What a joke.
Just to put things into perspective

We had 2 matches this past weekend, the Magnum Match and the regular Sporting Rifle. Two of the match directors came down early on Friday and set up the Magnum match Friday afternoon. They were the only shooters that helped with setup and between driving 4 hours and the setting up that took up their entire day.

At the end of the Magnum Match we asked if anyone could help with teardown. No volunteers so the same 2 match directors tore down the targets after shooting the match.

After tearing down the Magnum Match 2 match directors then went over to set up the regular Sporting Rifle Match at 1PM to set up. The 2 match directors did the entire setup by themselves in on and off rain. A couple of shooters did show up hours later for the sight in and help out at the end as sight in can not start until set up is done. The 2 match directors then waited in the rain until 5 o'clock in case any more shooters showed up for sight in.

After the match finished on Sunday once again the only people to help teardown after waiting for all squads to finish were the match directors.

Most shooters left hours (plural) before the match directors finished up and started their 4 hour drive home.

Not complaining or bitching but I don't think many understand what goes in to putting the match on.

Lastly, the contact information for the match directors is on the Sporting Rifle web site if you would like to give your feedback and/or suggestions directly to the match directors.
 
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Mordamer

Professional Know It All
Belligerents
May 11, 2010
801
324
69
Hooker, OK
If the squads are still limited to 5 people in the future then maybe there should be a penalty for going slow. Make it mandatory to turn in your score sheet by 2:00 PM or your score doesn't count. They tell everyone to move fast and be efficient, but it obviously falls on deaf ears.

Regardless of the complaints, the match is very well run. The match directors are doing the best they can. I greatly appreciate the volunteers that make this awesome shooting match possible month after month. The shooters need to do better to make this match run fast. I will make it my goal to finish by 1:00 PM next month. If the squad in front me is taking their sweet time, they might get an ear full. If we all finish early in the afternoon maybe they will let more shooters in next time.
 

D_TROS

instaG= hashtagdorgan
Belligerents
Aug 19, 2010
1,576
679
219
North Denver, CO
For clarity, who are you referring to as the lazy people? The match directors / organizers?
Sorry should have been more clear. Lazy people that shoot slow then take off early. Granted I have done that, but I also like helping tear down.


...

Pretty sure if the match went the mercenary route like most of the matches around the country and the match staff drew a paycheck and could take the day after off instead of going to work at 5AM it wouldn't be as much of an issue . The match staff at SRM has always been volunteers and payed the same entry fees as everybody else .

To put a point on the lack of support of the shooters at the match is Steve's post above looking for volunteers to help with set up .
Great post and I am shocked the directors, like Steve, don't get paid. Volunteering is great, until you are doing it alone.


Just to put things into perspective

We had 2 matches this past weekend, the Magnum Match and the regular Sporting Rifle. Two of the match directors came down early on Friday and set up the Magnum match Friday afternoon. They were the only shooters that helped with setup and between driving 4 hours and the setting up that took up their entire day.

At the end of the Magnum Match we asked if anyone could help with teardown. No volunteers so the same 2 match directors tore down the targets after shooting the match.

After tearing down the Magnum Match 2 match directors then went over to set up the regular Sporting Rifle Match at 1PM to set up. The 2 match directors did the entire setup by themselves in on and off rain. A couple of shooters did show up hours later for the sight in and help out at the end as sight in can not start until set up is done. The 2 match directors then waited in the rain until 5 o'clock in case any more shooters showed up for sight in.

After the match finished on Sunday once again the only people to help teardown after waiting for all squads to finish were the match directors.

Most shooters left hours (plural) before the match directors finished up and started their 4 hour drive home.

Not complaining or bitching but I don't think many understand what goes in to putting the match on.

Lastly, the contact information for the match directors is on the Sporting Rifle web site if you would like to give your feedback and/or suggestions directly to the match directors.
Wait...isn't the HIde the place to complain?!? lol. I kid I kid.

Kind of my point of laziness in perfect picture. No reason it should be done past 3 with tear down with up to 6 or 7 people squads, and tear down should most def NEVER done by just one or 2 guys.

There has to be somewhere to voice concern over volunteers needing compensation. There also should maybe ideas above implemented to speed up shooting instead of limiting shooters. Don't limit the $$$, limit shooting times. Limit squading yourself. etc etc. I just feel like the drastic measures were taken (what only 40 shooters next?) instead of ideas to speed up shooting.


Regards,
DT
 

D_TROS

instaG= hashtagdorgan
Belligerents
Aug 19, 2010
1,576
679
219
North Denver, CO
maybe save 5 spots of registration for after match fills that will be used for people promising to help tear down?? Kind of like a penalty for signing up late??

maybe if you drop out after signing up you cant sign up following month until week before match.

maybe make stage times 2 min

Hmmm
DT
 

stevenc23

Full Member
Belligerents
Oct 21, 2013
725
112
49
Denver, CO
maybe save 5 spots of registration for after match fills that will be used for people promising to help tear down?? Kind of like a penalty for signing up late??

maybe if you drop out after signing up you cant sign up following month until week before match.

maybe make stage times 2 min

Hmmm
DT
I like those suggestions and have previously floated some of the same suggestions.

Again feel free to contact the match directors directly with suggestions and/or feedback.
 
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Wormydog1724

Working on my TyperSnyper PHD
Belligerents
Jun 26, 2013
240
194
49
Anyways... how 'bout that mirage on stage 1?
Anybody else shoot high on more than a couple targets!? 🙋‍♂️
I've got a plan for it next time.... shoot it early in the morning! ha!
 

stevenc23

Full Member
Belligerents
Oct 21, 2013
725
112
49
Denver, CO
Not likely. There is a few hours of setup work required prior to each match. The match starts early and takes all day, so the setup has to occur on the previous day. So, if the match was held on Saturday, those that set up the match would have to take Friday off. As it stands, the match is on Sunday while setup, practice and early registration occur on Saturday. After the match on Sunday, we still have to award the prizes, and then knock down a bunch of the targets to help keep them from being stolen. Even with the match limited to 50 shooters, it is usually close to 4:00 PM before we are done and can head home.

For some time, we have been changing some of the rules and emphasizing squad efficiency in the briefing to try and get the match to move faster. We have also been more picky about the composition of the squads (at least one experienced shooter and a limited number newbies in every squad). While this has been modestly successful, we still have lots of competitors that can't seem to move through the course efficiently and just take too long. The 50 shooter limit is based on the reality of how long squads actually take to get through each stage. If the shooters become more efficient, the limitation on the number of shooters will be reconsidered.

The bottom line is that the group people who founded this match did so to have fun with precision rifles. When the squads are too large and we don't get out of there until 5:00 or later, its just not as much fun. We want to keep it fun.
In case anyone missed this post above from Mike, it gives the rationale for the changes. My bolding of pertinent text.
 
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AIS

Private
Belligerents
Nov 8, 2010
98
11
12
43
SWK
Could start running the match kinda like a blind stage match. No standing around looking at targets, reading a kestrel for 5 min.
Get to the stage, first shooter up, shooter understand coarse of fire, shooter go.....
With the time, and most guys know the targets, and have the ranges

Just an idea.
 

delfuego

Belieber
Belligerents
Aug 21, 2011
691
154
49
PHX AZ
No standing around looking at targets, reading a kestrel for 5 min.
That should be the case now. If people aren't ready to shoot, it's up to the squad to "motivate" them. The 4 minute stage is long time, but if you're a new shooter it goes fast. Most experienced shooters only take 2 minutes per stage. This match is super friendly to new shooters and that is one of it's appeals.

I don't think we need to "Fix" anything at the SRM. It's about the best match around. I think we should listen to the MD's. They need help with setup/break down, cooperation, patience and everyone to move faster (and white paint, you can always use paint!). Lets give them the benefit of the doubt.
 
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rmfield

Sergeant
Belligerents
Apr 9, 2006
142
44
34
Littleton, Colorado
AIS: That is pretty much what you are supposed to do now. Obviously, some squads are able/willing to do it and they are the ones that finish at 1:00-1:30. It is not about hurrying so much as it about consistently not wasting time. This is why Mike harps on efficiency at every briefing.

We've studied the flow of match pretty carefully for years and I can tell you that it is the little things that are repeated on every stage that cause the delays.

- It is the extra 2 minute a shooter takes to fiddle with gear, move into position, check the wind (again), load and start x 10 stages = 50 minutes.
- It is the the 5 minutes that a squad takes before they actually start shooting at a stage x 10 stages = 50 minutes.
- Its the 2 minutes a squad takes packing up and chatting with the squad that caught up with them x 10 stages + 50 minutes.
- Its the 2 minutes that a shooter takes to clear the position while chatting about why he missed x 10 stages = 50 minutes

- Its all of the little inefficiencies x 10 x 50

We shoot this match to have fun and we volunteer our time to make it happen. We don't want to be paid. We like the format of the match the way it is and want to be on the road by 3:00 PM on Sunday. At 50 shooters this seems to work. 10 more shooters adds up to an other hour. We promote squad efficiency because we know it is the crux of the matter, but we do not want to police the match (we are busy having fun shooting). It really doesn't make any difference to us how many shooters we have as long as we keep having fun. If our shooters become more efficient and 60 shooters can still get us out of there by 3, then we will do that.

That said, I think the people signing up and then then dropping at the last minute needs to be addressed.

Another thing that we might revisit is the 4 minute time allowed to shoot. It used to be 3 minutes, but increased it to 4 when we allowed tripods and added the "no pre-configuration" rules. Stage 6 needs 4 minutes, but do the rest?

D_TROS: I understand your frustration and don't mind the criticism, but I really don't appreciate your false and exaggerated numbers. A lot of good things have come from shooter suggestions, but lets keep it real.
 

Zak Smith

TBAC Guy
Commercial Supporter
Belligerents
Nov 7, 2003
2,277
545
219
Fort Collins, CO, USA
thunderbeastarms.com
Mike, RM Field, C Ward, etc, should be given a lifetime achievement award for their work on the SRM.

Back in 2004 it was the ONLY local or "regular" match in existence, at least in this part of the country, and it was set up as a practice opportunity for matches like the Steel Safari and the ITRC-- because there was literally nowhere else to practice.

Running "Local" matches is a thankless affair that eventually burns out almost everyone.

At $30, the match fee is a steal. Implementing this match idea under any normal economics would see the fee more than doubled to stay in the black.
 

high right

Sergeant
Belligerents
Feb 24, 2013
261
28
34
Colorado
Agree with rmfield and Zac. Lifetime achievement for sure! After 14+ years of putting this match together, Mike shows as much enthusiasm as any
"New guy" I've shot it with 70 shooters and didn't get out till 4:30. At a 5 hour drive that sucks. Capping it at 50 with the current time limit gives the guys tearing down a chance at getting home before midnight! Could it run faster? Sure. Mikes match, Mikes rules.
I can't thank them enough for the dedication and time they put into it.
 

rmfield

Sergeant
Belligerents
Apr 9, 2006
142
44
34
Littleton, Colorado
I need to say something here.

I appreciate the kind words, but the credit goes to more people than have been mentioned. It is important to note that Zak was one of the original founders/investors in the SRM and continues to support the match even though he is too busy with family, TBAC and Competition Dynamics to actually shoot it much these days. Our website continues to exist on his servers and he was instrumental in getting the website updated recently. If we are handing out lifetime achievement awards, Zak gets the first one.

Also, Steve C deserves a lot of credit for all of his efforts. He is kind of a new guy on the staff, but he has contributed a great deal of his time to all of the various SRM matches, and in my mind, represent the future for when we old farts fade away. Hopefully the SRM will live beyond our lifetime.

And finally there is Chuck. He has not been able to shoot as much lately as he would like, but he has dedicated years to not only SRM, but quite a few other matches as well.

And we have lots of "regulars" like Stan who are always there, for this match and others, to lend a hand.

There are others, too many to be named, that invested in SRM, became involved and faded away for one reason or another, but we owe them for there willingness to give something back to the sport.
 

terrell35744

Sergeant
Belligerents
May 29, 2008
200
3
22
39
Albuquerque, NM
Ive shot this great match in years past and enjoyed it very much. I would like to put out a few ideas. What if you had sign up for next month match during the set up and tear down. Get there early and work you get in for sure next month, stay late and clean up get to shoot next month match for sure. We have found at our monthly matches (20 to 30 guys 3 squads 6-7 stages 60ish rounds match starts 9:15 ends 1:00) six guys per squad is the perfect number and 10 is the max. With 6 you have Ro/score keeping , spotter, shooter, on deck and that lets you get two shooters done before ro and spotters need to switch. We also call out slow shooters/squads and directly communicate expectations to our shooters both to speed up our day and make them better shooters.

Thanks for running this great match
Sean Terrell