Mannlicher .416 Taylor for the win!

sirhrmechanic

Command Sgt. Major
Feb 23, 2010
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#1
Two hours of trying to find the herd. A 45 minute stalk over 1/2 mile with the last few hundred yards doing a nice snipery belly crawl.... put four .416's into this monster. Two were all it needed. The first two shots were 3 inches apart, blew top off heart. He didn't go more than 20 feet after first hit. The others were all backup.

I managed to scope myself on the last shot, which was offhand... just in case. Not needed. But there you go. Never scoped myself in my life. This one will leave a scar. Which is kind of cool... Just did not have enough relief on the vintage scope.

Here's some pictures.

I should have put this in the Nom Nom Nom thread...

My bison is down. There is another huge bull next to him. We had to wait for him to move off. Patience. He left. Both were in the 1900 pound range. Shot was 120 yards, prone. Put two right next to each other. A third a few inches back. Then, about 10 minutes later, one more through the spine, which came out the belly. Two bullets found under skin... look down.



I managed to scope myself... first time in my life. So now I have a scar next to a scar... I knew I did it on the last (un-necessary) shot. But guide thought I should spine him. So I did. Only offhand shot and I was not ready for the recoil. Vintage WW1 era scope managed to leave a mark. Well, there ya go. It's another battle scar.


My buddy Jim (Berlin Special Forces book) and I with the downed buff..



Buff down...




Rifle... ,416 Taylor with Mannlicher. It did its part.



At butcher. He was all excited to show me the heart. Which I took the top off of with the first two shots. The two 'follow on' shots were not needed. But the Guide wanted me to shoot. So I did.


Two shots through the shoulder that just completely busted the heart. 120 yards prone. Not through the 'skin' patch, but right through the shoulder. Guide told me NOT to shoot the skin patch as a lung shot Bull could run for miles. He said shoot through the shoulder and hit the heart. Do not miss the heart. I blew the heart out with two shots. I could hear the rounds hit meat at that range. Very, very happy!


Two of the four bullets fired. One more is going to show up in the meat. One (the spine shot) went through. Very hard to shoot through a buffalo. But the .416 did it.



Hide laid out in the sun... There's a lot of leather there!

So there ya go! A good time was had by all. Except, of course, the Buffalo. He did not have a good time.

An amazing hunt up in the Jim River.... I'd do it again in a second. It was worth the wait. I am still running on adrenaline!

And the stalk was right out of various schools. Moving forward using my toes and watching for reaction. All I needed was the Ghillie to make it into an 'op' vs. a 'hunt.' Stalked this guy almost half a mile... with the sun in my face. But so was the wind. And there were two of them 'watching.' So double jeopardy if one of them caught us. But Jim, me and our guide... got it done!

Cheers,

Sirhr

PS. I am sure Tucker will now be having a blast putting my face on all kinds of interesting bodies.... ;-)
 
Sep 6, 2006
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Southern California
#6
Congrats on the kill! Refresh me on the ballistics? How heavy and how fast? Pretty sure you posted it, but cant recall.

I have an uncle who’s been to africa more than a dozen times, as well as all the other continents except for south america. Big guy who shoots magnums with serious skill. On our last bear hunt, he whacked a big black bear and put some follow up shots in it as the light was fading, and heavy cover nearby. As he worked the bolt on his 340 weatherby a few times, the butt was sliding down progressively, shortening the eye relief. It caught him good on the last shot. He was embarrassed! He had a big bear down, so it was all good. It happens!


Congrats again! Cant wait to whack one of those with my shiloh and 500 grain PP bullet!
 
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pmclaine

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Nov 6, 2011
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#7
Beautiful animal.

You provided him an honorable death.

Imagine all those poor Bison out there getting whacked by lesser arms are jealous.
 

mrbig

Sergeant
May 4, 2011
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Pleasant Shade ,Tn 37145
#11
awesome hunt and end results,,my older brother took his Sharps 1874 45-70 to South Dakota a few years ago and he said his guide about freaked out when he told him that was all the rifle he brought and that he only had ammo that he loaded with bullets he cast himself,,but it worked out and the hide he brought back squared 72 feet after it was tanned,,he has it laid across a queen sized bed and it touches the floor all around,,nicer than any deer mount I have seen,
 
Feb 16, 2005
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#12
Considering the number of buffalo taken with a 45-70 Sharps rifle and cast lead bullets I think he could have gotten a better guide.
 

sandwarrior

Gunny Sergeant
Apr 21, 2007
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in yooperland
#13
Two hours of trying to find the herd. A 45 minute stalk over 1/2 mile with the last few hundred yards doing a nice snipery belly crawl.... put four .416's into this monster. Two were all it needed. The first two shots were 3 inches apart, blew top off heart. He didn't go more than 20 feet after first hit. The others were all backup.

I managed to scope myself on the last shot, which was offhand... just in case. Not needed. But there you go. Never scoped myself in my life. This one will leave a scar. Which is kind of cool... Just did not have enough relief on the vintage scope.

Here's some pictures.

I should have put this in the Nom Nom Nom thread...

My bison is down. There is another huge bull next to him. We had to wait for him to move off. Patience. He left. Both were in the 1900 pound range. Shot was 120 yards, prone. Put two right next to each other. A third a few inches back. Then, about 10 minutes later, one more through the spine, which came out the belly. Two bullets found under skin... look down.

......
I got a question for you, what are you supposed to do (per the guide) if that second bull wants to come along a put a couple holes in you?
 

mrbig

Sergeant
May 4, 2011
605
146
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Pleasant Shade ,Tn 37145
#14
Considering the number of buffalo taken with a 45-70 Sharps rifle and cast lead bullets I think he could have gotten a better guide.
back then the buffalo hunter was different than some yahoo showing up in the 21st century wanting to go back in time 135 years,,,after a few shots at the guides range he didnt have any 2nd thoughts in the deal,,and he got him on a real trophy,,

the way he loads that rifle/ammo he may as well take a Model 70 Safari Grade 458 Win Mag,,I wish I had some pics it is one of the nicest rifles I ever saw,,a friend of his was gonna lose it in a divorce and he got it really cheap,,it looks almost exactly like the Quigley rifle with nicer wood and a 30" bbl in 45-70,
 

sirhrmechanic

Command Sgt. Major
Feb 23, 2010
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#15
Considering the number of buffalo taken with a 45-70 Sharps rifle and cast lead bullets I think he could have gotten a better guide.
I had this conversation with my guide.... about people bringing .45/70's. He gets a lot of them. He considers it a bit light by today's standards and an inability to do a fast follow-on-shot can be a handicap. However, his clients are successful with them.

Here is his take... paraphrased... Back when the plains were covered with buffalo, noone cared about wounding shots or animals that ran for miles (a lung-shot animal may not even go down, their lungs are so large). And .45/70's were what was available and, for the most part, cheap. That's what was used. The .45/70, especially with cast bullets, is a good gun. But it is not exactly a powerhouse when it comes to a heart shot, which is what they want you to do today. Because a lost or wounded animal is unacceptable. Back then... hey, shoot 20 and pick up the ones that don't run away. Who cares? There's millions of them.

To your point Sand.... about a charge... that it would simply not happen. In fact, the biggest concern is that the second bull would start attacking and goring the down bull. These were both Alpha animals. Not usually found together because they are, well, anti-social. He left after about 45 minutes... when a guy brought his bucket loader out from a nearby ranch (nearby, I mean 8 miles away) to load it on a trailer. drove it off with h is bucket loader.... by chasing it. These things have no enemies. And you'd have to be pretty stupid to get one to charge you (like the idiots do in Yellowstone all the time). But if an animal is hit and runs towards you (slightly more likely to happen, though not really a charge, the guide said), shoot for the head. And keep shooting.

BTW, if you've ever seen a bull 'beefer' charge, it will run a few dozen yards and stop. A buffalo shot in the lungs can run for miles. Hours. A full-yo charge could be 30 mph. At 20 mph, they can run about all day. Longest 'recovery' he made was 14 miles away. Tracking it running... for 14 miles.

Last, my .416 did the job in 2 shots. It went down after two hits to the heart and stayed down I fired two more on guide's intstructionsm one of which spined him and another went in the briskit and out the rear quarter as the bull turned. but I don't think they were needed. The guy who hunted the next day hada nice .300 Win Mag. Took him 9 shots before the bull dropped. Not much of a wound cavity.

So going back to the .45/70... definitely can do the job. But know your load, your gun, your POI and listen to your guide!!!!

Last, my biggest handicap was my scope. A great scope for the gun... beautiful, period and dead nuts mechanically perfect. But the optics aren't coated. And there is no 'sun shade' built in. And it is at best about a 3x. Great ww1 sniper scope (which is what it was). But Objective is right out at the end and is just awful in the sun. On our hunt, we were right, directly in the sun. Fortunately with the wind in our faces. But when I got the scope on the bull, the image was anything but crisp. Bad sun flare. I got really lucky that in the last few minutes before I shot, the sun went behind a cloud (I actually waited to do my final stalk until the sun went behind the cloud.) That let me get in close and line everything up. But just before I shot, the sun came out again. Vintage optics are great and I love them.... but I was sweating the shot. Especially as these things are huge and black at a distance and with the sun behind them and low on the horizon, there is not a lot of 'features' to work from. That 'skin patch' that "the internet' tells you to shoot at? Dream on. Wrong place for the heart (would be a low lung shot) and... guess what... the famous skin patch was invisible!!! I couldn't see it at all. I went with shape and leg. The shots were both straight up the front leg to 1/3 to 1/4 the way up the chest between belly and hump. That I could do... and did. Lesson there, too... which is that my range is nicely set up to keep the sun behind me (except really at dawn and I don't sight in rifles then!). I should have gotten set up to at least spend some time looking through my scope into an adverse direction.... dusk towards the sun or dawn towards the sun. And I'd have learned something that would have been really helpful once I got in the field. I may have still taken the same scope, but I would have been a lot more ready for what turned out to be unexpected! And unexpected is not good. The 6 P's and all that.....

But in the end, the guide's advice was right on. Which brings me to a last 'conversation' which is that the guide appreciated the fact that Jim and I listened to him... And followed his advice. Apparently, lots of clients come in and know more. And have read the Internet. And Wild West tales. And seen Dances with Wolves. I've done all the above. And during my conversations with the guide. Not the Internet. And it was a fantastic hunt. Utterly amazing.

So anyway, the moral of the story is that "the old stuff" can definitely get the job done. But there is a reason that 'the new stuff' is better! A nice US Optics 1.5 - 6 would not have been needed... and would have been all wrong for my gun. But it sure would have been nice in those last seconds before I squeezed off!

Did I mention.... listen to your guide? Though that really applies to all hunts...

Cheers,

Sirhr
 

sandwarrior

Gunny Sergeant
Apr 21, 2007
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#16
sirhr,

Appreciate you taking the time to go into detail about the hunt. I enjoy hearing what it takes. And, no doubt the history behind buffalo hunting was interesting as well.

I haven't hunted buffalo. The shot above is with my camera from a safe point. But, from what I've seen of them on the ranches and game preserves where I have seen them, is they tend to get aggressive. Distance (and a good telephoto) is your friend.;). Speaking of which, your camera also won't give you one of these ;) (wish I could photoshop and put a li'l drop o' blood on there for ya:eek::cool:)
 

sirhrmechanic

Command Sgt. Major
Feb 23, 2010
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#17
Oh yeah.... last neat lesson! That is 'what we all saw' was not what happened.... when it came to the shot!

After the shooting was done while we were waiting for the bucket loader, I thought that I shot two rounds into the shoulder (heart) on his right side, then one shot on the left. And then, later, a spine shot. Only two of those that I 'saw" were right. And one was the spine shot, which was not under any kind of stress. In all four shots, we heard the distinct slap of a bullet on meat.

My guide thought I had shot one in the right, and two in the left side. And then the spine shot. Jim thought I had shot once and then the bull turned a full 360 degrees before I shot him two more times. Then spined him.

Once we watched the video (which I will try and get posted here when I get a copy), the first shot was textbook in the right side. As I fired a follow-up shot, the bull whirled around, but was not facing me... he was facing away from me. I thought he was facing me. And half-way through his turn, put a shot right in his chest, but from the rear., through the stomach... ending in the briskit. Possibly nicking a rear leg. The bull finished his turn. Stopped still and gave me a left broadside shot, and that was the second shot thorugh the heart... On almost the same path as the first one. But neither exited. The two holes on the right side (that I posted) were from an in-wound of my first shot... and where the other bullet came to a rest under the skin as an exit. But didn't exit the skin. None of my bullets went through from what we could tell.

It wasn't until we watched the video that we realized we had all seen something different. Even though we were right there, watching intently... and supposedly seeing the same thing.

Just interesting... The holes and the video all matched up... our memories did not!

Cheers,

Sirhr
 

pmclaine

Gunny Sergeant
Nov 6, 2011
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#18
Out in Dakotas/Wyoming a couple years ago saw lots of these beasts.

What amazed me is the the big boys are not long for this world.

They live a rough life and the fight to procreate takes its toll.

They get about 8-10 years and thats it.

No old age home for old soldiers either. When a bull goes beyond prime he quickly becomes dead meat.
 
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sirhrmechanic

Command Sgt. Major
Feb 23, 2010
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#19
BTW, got home last night... completely knackered. But spending some time today putting meat away, cleaning gear, etc. And going through photos, etc. Got some of the pictures in from Jim!

Here are his pictures from our stalk.

Jim says he took this one a couple of minutes before I fired the first shot. From his position, it's hard to see the target. We are a couple of feet 'higher' on a slope with the Buffalo just down in a depression. You can see their backs. They are about 120 yards away, but the compression of the telephoto probably makes it look further. Jim is, I would guess,, about 12 feet back of us. As he is taking the photo, I am pushing myself forward with my toes... which is why my boots are up! I moved about the last 15 feet or so just pushing myself forward with the toes of my boots before getting into shooting position. Just after this, the sun came out from behind cloud, too. Which was really bad timing



This is after firing the third shot. Jim got up a bit to get this one as the buff was definitely down. Note it is facing East. My firs t shot it was facing west. Sun is right in our face. He thought that the artifact in the upper left of the picture was smoke from the shot, but I think it's a sun devil in his lens.... just a flare. It was that kind of morning. But could be either, I suppose. If you look just in front of me, you'll see the weeds we used to mask our approach.

Bull as we walked up to him.



Scope close-up. On a beautiful removable claw mount. I think it might be an ideal scope for a charging cape buffalo.... but for a longer shot facing the sun.. well, it got the job done. That said, I am not changing it. Wonder if any companies out there can 'coat' the lenses of vintage scopes? And I know that this winter, I will be in the machine shop turning up an aluminum sunshade! That will help a lot!

Cheers,

Sirhr
 

sirhrmechanic

Command Sgt. Major
Feb 23, 2010
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#22
Nope, German. Kollmorgen did not start making scopes until after WW2.. In WW1 and until after WW2, they made periscopes. The Kollmorgen is on my Sako Finnbear. it's a much more advanced scope.

This whole thing, however, has got me wondering if any companies can take vintage optics and coat the lenses. I am not sure if it would even work... or if the coatings would cause issues themselves. But it's an interesting question!

Cheers,

Sirhr
 

pmclaine

Gunny Sergeant
Nov 6, 2011
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#23
This whole thing, however, has got me wondering if any companies can take vintage optics and coat the lenses. I am not sure if it would even work... or if the coatings would cause issues themselves. But it's an interesting question!

Cheers,

Sirhr
You can just replace the lenses with modern glass if you can get the scope apart and it has a separate wire reticle cell.

Tokiwartooth fixes up old Redfields and he often buys new glass for them. I think he just calls the glass manufacturer and they have certain diameter lenses in stock he buys what he needs exchanges good for old and pine glues it back in place.

Toki is pretty busy these days I understand but you may want to send him a PM and pictures of your scope and see if he is interested in the challenge.

 

pmclaine

Gunny Sergeant
Nov 6, 2011
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#24
.....and perhaps we can see pictures of your Kollmorgan again.

I picked up a nice one a year or so ago that I havent done anything with but when I saw it I knew I had to buy it.

Its a 4X. Could probably use it to make a Faux MC-1 USMC Garand Sniper with Griffin and Howe Mount.

Of course I wont have the nice adjustable turrets of the real MC-1 mine are capped.

P5036864.JPG

P5036866.JPG

The real MC-1 Kollmorgan, as explained by those that have handled them has adjustable turrets that have a feel that rival the highest high end scopes of today. When you remove the caps on mine it has the nicest brass machined adjustment dials.

Really nice scope. Thinking mine may ride my Ruger 10-22 someday and that just does not seem a fitting use for this instrument.
 

sirhrmechanic

Command Sgt. Major
Feb 23, 2010
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#25
I'll take a pic...

The Kollmorgen's were amazing scopes. After 1945, their contracts for periscopes evaporated overnight. No new subs built. Of any kind. To keep their workforce together, they made rifle scopes, glass ashtrays, magnifying glasses... anything. To keep a few bucks coming in. The Nuclear Navy put them back on track. The sold their scope business to, I think, Redfield? The Bear Cub? But those early Kollmorgen scopes were worth WAY more than what they cost. The finest engineering and optics. All sold just to keep a workforce employed.

Mine is a dot reticle. One dot in the middle. Tough as nails. Clear as a bell.

I'll post....

Cheers,

Sirhr
 

pmclaine

Gunny Sergeant
Nov 6, 2011
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#26
I'll take a pic...

The Kollmorgen's were amazing scopes. After 1945, their contracts for periscopes evaporated overnight. No new subs built. Of any kind. To keep their workforce together, they made rifle scopes, glass ashtrays, magnifying glasses... anything. To keep a few bucks coming in. The Nuclear Navy put them back on track. The sold their scope business to, I think, Redfield? The Bear Cub? But those early Kollmorgen scopes were worth WAY more than what they cost. The finest engineering and optics. All sold just to keep a workforce employed.

Mine is a dot reticle. One dot in the middle. Tough as nails. Clear as a bell.

I'll post....

Cheers,

Sirhr
Yes Redfield took the designs but I think they turned it into a mass production, mass market product. You can certainly see the similarities in the ocular bell.

The early Redfields are great scopes but they are not up to the sngineering of the brass internals I see in my Kollmorgen.

That US Navy relationship must have gave the Kollmorgen designs a little bit extra robustness.

Likely why they couldnt manufacture them at a price point the hunters around North Hampton were willing to pay.
 
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