Kahles V Minox V NF

deersniper

Notorious
Online Training Access
Banned !
Belligerents
Feb 22, 2007
7,233
7,521
219
Northeast
How do the Minox and Kahles stack up to NF ATACR or NX8? Thanks

Durability, repeatability and glass are my priorities ,
 

Dthomas3523

Hall Monitor
Staff member
Hessian
Commercial Supporter
Online Training Access
Belligerents
Jan 31, 2018
6,714
7,342
119
South Texas
Durability, I think they are all pretty good. Nx8 is probably a tier or two down from the others.

Kahles always scores very high on tracking and repeatability.

Of those three, I choose kahles every time. But not at the $3k range they want for it. That’s zco money and zco blows them away.

For $2500, kahles all day.
 

TacticalDillhole

Shiner of shoes
Online Training Access
Belligerents
Jun 26, 2012
4,868
4,567
219
N. Carolina
Durability, I think they are all pretty good. Nx8 is probably a tier or two down from the others.

Kahles always scores very high on tracking and repeatability.

Of those three, I choose kahles every time. But not at the $3k range they want for it. That’s zco money and zco blows them away.

For $2500, kahles all day.
I agree with this. I think 3k is too much for the K5-25, 25000-2600 is more in line. It’s a fantastic scope and the SKMr3 is awesome. I also like the MSR2
 

rydah

Moons out goons out.
Belligerents
Minuteman
Feb 12, 2019
387
310
69
Last scope was an ATACR and current scope is a 525i. Spent some time with a 5-25 ATACR last week just to remind myself what they were like.

It’s over priced at 3000 or more but at 2500 it’s a good scope and expectations are in line with what you pay.
Does have a lot of CA when you get off centre (which I don’t really think is acceptable at the price point) but if you have your rifle setup properly and have good fundamentals you shouldn’t ever really notice it.
The more time I spend with it the more I like it. The LSW and top parallax just work, I really enjoy the controls and ergos, size and weight of the scope. The FOV is a bit narrow and it is like looking into a tube (but so is the ATACR) but other than that no complaints really. The turrets are better than the ATACR, illumination is better, reticle is good, setting the turrets is so easy compared to the ATACR. Glass is obviously same league as the ATACR but we won’t get into that they all good at that price point.
Durability is as good I carry my rifle around by the scope, throw it in the truck and it bangs around on everything while I drive around on the farm, run it in and out of barricades no worries, I’m super confident in the scope, it’s tracking and happy with it for what I wanted it for (lightweight and compact 5-25 scope prs and long range hunting crossover scope) but only at the right price. If I wasn’t concerned about weight or size which most guys aren’t because they won’t be hunting with it I would just go the 7-35 ATACR.

Not a fan of the NX8. Too many compromises to hit the size, weight and price.
 
  • Like
Reactions: deersniper

NorthWesterner

Sergeant
Belligerents
Minuteman
Dec 24, 2017
467
174
49
31
Sedro Woolley, WA
Durability, I think they are all pretty good. Nx8 is probably a tier or two down from the others.

Kahles always scores very high on tracking and repeatability.

Of those three, I choose kahles every time. But not at the $3k range they want for it. That’s zco money and zco blows them away.

For $2500, kahles all day.
Well said. Kahles makes a awesome scope. Really the scopes you mentioned are all very good. For 3k, you may as well buck up the w tea 500-600 and get a ZCO. They really are that much nicer. What ever you decide, I’m sure you will be happy with.
 

Danrobberg

Lance Criminal
Belligerents
May 31, 2017
337
169
49
I have heard of more tracking issues and zero shift issues with kahles than any other that you have listed. I have owned an atacr and minox and the minox glass blows away the 5x25 atacr but not the 7x35. I think minox has suffered from some qc issues that may or may not have been addressed.

I have heard way to many stories about kahles scopes to trust one, that being said many people shoot them with great success.

You can find minox for around 2200 and they have the best parallax and mag zoom. Very smooth and parallax free just about past 300 yards. I have felt some with great turrets and some with mushy turrets but I never had a tracking issue with mine and neither did two friends who own one either.

for about 2500 5x25 atacr is probably the most durable and trustworthy but the glass and parallax doesn’t compare to the minox.

If you go up close to 3k you could get a 7x35 nightforce atacr which is an outstanding scope but for about 500 more you could get a zco which is new to market but is exceptional. I was very impressed with how robust they feel and they look great. Outstanding turrets and parallax knob and zoom.

min the end I think they will all do what you need and a lot of people let the reticle be the deciding factor. I think the minox MR4 is hard to beat but really like the zco mpct 2. The lines a just a hair thicker than I’d like but the reticle has absolutely everything you would need.
 

blbennett1288

de·plor·a·ble
Belligerents
Apr 24, 2017
1,995
1,425
119
Hoover, Alabama
Owned all 3 and still own the NF 7-35.

Minox glass will be the best of the 3. NF will have the best durability and repeat-ability. I prefer the NF glass over the Kahles.

I would take the K624 over the K525. The FOV in the K525 is pretty bad above x15. The spacing on clicks is also much closer together on the K525 than the K624. The k525 does have better glass than the k624. I could never really get accustom to using the Kahles. The Kahles has a way more sensitive parallax than the Minox and NF 7-35 in my opinion.
 

TangoSierra916

Gunny Sergeant
Hessian
Belligerents
Minuteman
Oct 11, 2017
931
223
49
Madison, WI
With the brands you're talking about, as with most scope topics there's a lot of personal preference. I'm not sure what mag range you're looking at but if you're talking Minox ZP5 5-25, Kahles 6-24 or 5-25 and ATACR F1 5-25 or 7-35 I'd go the 7-35. If the 7-35 is out of the price range or weight/length criteria then Id lean to Minox as the second option.

NF- I really enjoy the features of the ATACR and overall feel. The 7-35 with the close focus is very nice, but there is a bit of lower end tunneling and the rotating ocular, so if those are deal breakers maybe its not the right choice. I wouldn't say the ATACR is the "best glass" out there but I'm no scientist so for me its still darn good and is more than capable of getting the job done across many applications. Of the three options you've mentioned I prefer the ATACR 7-35 glass over the rest. The NF brand is proven and durable so that would check a few boxes from your criteria. If you're shopping top tiers from the 3 brands you mentioned I wouldn't look at the NX8 unless weight is a concern. Not trying to degrade the NX8 its just not in the same class as the others.

Kahles- I really love the feel of the Kahles product, specifically the 5-25, but every one I had was glowing with purple CA so I cant personally go with them. Like what @Dthomas3523 referenced there are just better options at their price points although they do seem to be dropping to a more reasonable price point.

Minox- The Minox ZP5 with the MR4 is a very nice feeling scope, really has the sleek German refined feel similar to the Schmidt and great glass with a precise reticle. Very crisp illumination that doesnt bleed at all, that was impressive to me. Although the ZP5 felt great the controls for the parallax and elevation turret would the best feeling when actually using them. I just prefer other brands operations over the Minox, but the MR4 is solid.

Alot of nit picking above, all of these get the job done and have great reticle/feature offerings I think it just comes down to what you're going for. Glass is always the fun topic as eyes determine alot of "how good" it is. Not to throw another in the mix but Schmidt is a solid option especially for the current prices, if you can live with the low end tunneling on the 5-25. I share the perspective that @blbennett1288 just posted as well, well done!
 
Last edited:

deersniper

Notorious
Online Training Access
Banned !
Belligerents
Feb 22, 2007
7,233
7,521
219
Northeast
I traded a 4-45 bender for a 3-18 kahles and 5-25 minox. I’m a NF fan buy was told they are better. Debating keeping them or trading/selling.

I do like the nx8s that everyone doesn’t though.

I do have a bender 5-25 coming in that I traded a Steiner for but I guess my eyes are used to the Nightforce glass, the last bender seemed like t had a brown ring to the lenses. Where and seems crisper more “blue” if that makes sense
 
Last edited:

jbell

Gunny Sergeant
Belligerents
Jan 16, 2010
4,534
1,112
219
41
Lewiston, ME
I am a ATACR fan for sure, I didn't love my K624i but it wasn't bad. I have no experience with the Minox, but would like to try one at some point. But a scope not on your list that is admittedly kind of long in the tooth but IMO is still the best bang for the buck (given its fallen out of favor and used prices are so low) is the PMII 5-25X56 in whatever turret and reticle you like. Strictly my opinion so take it as such, for around $2100-$2300 used in good shape nothing can compete.
 

Danrobberg

Lance Criminal
Belligerents
May 31, 2017
337
169
49
That’s so disappointing to hear about the Minox. It has so many great features and the potential to be one of the top scopes on the market but If your scope doesn’t track and the zero shifts it doesn’t matter how good the glass is. I wish they would address these issues.

The 5x25 atacr is right in the price range you seem to be looking at. The glass when I compared them seemed to be close to a gen2 razor. I was a little underwhelmed, I switched to the minox shortly after that. I haven’t heard first hand of anyone’s atacr not tracking or zero shifting. That doesn’t mean it hasn’t happened. But in my opinion those are the two most important things to think about when buying a scope.

I now shoot a tangent theta because I have 100 percent confidence in the scope but that is a lot of money to drop on a scope. You can find them for about 4K. So if you can scrape up the extra 1500 that scope has everything you could possibly want.
 

codym

Private
Belligerents
Minuteman
Jan 17, 2018
273
69
34
New Mexico
I hear people complain about the Kahles for the price, which I agree retail is high but I see retail for the NF at above 3k for the 5-25 and 3600 for the 7-35, schmidt is also above 3k for most PMII's. If the ZCO blows all these scopes away, why is anyone buying anything else? Is everyone referencing the used market for the s and b NF and Kahles? I see the Kahles 525 selling for 2300-2500 used, s and b 5-25 pmII's about the same and NF 5-25 2400-2600 and the 7-35 2800-3100 depending on reticle. I'm seriously thinking about buying a ZCO, was very underwhelmed with the ATACR's ive owned and liked the PMII much more. I really like Kahles as well but I don't see CA apparently and I'm left handed so the Kahles scores big points for me. The PMII is frustrating with the reticle options, but loved everything about the scope. It's hard to decide when these things cost as much as a goo used car!
 

lte82

Shooter
Belligerents
Mar 12, 2013
1,760
890
219
Optically speaking the Kahles is sub-par compared to the NF and Minox. I’ve also heard of more mechanical issues with them than others. Between the Atacr and ZP5, optically I’d lean ZP5 but I prefer the turrets on the Atacr. Pick either, neither will disappoint. I personally run both Schmidt and Minox, and have several of each.

I can’t justify the price of a Tangent or ZCO. I don’t think there is really *anything* that offers much more than a razor 2, and they sell for $1500 here all day. $3600-4000+ is silly lol.
 

canezach

House of Chingasos
Belligerents
Apr 18, 2014
1,529
649
219
Colorado
Anyone in here run the Minox hard and NOT have issues?
It's been on my primary match rifle for almost four years now. It's been to numerous field matches, in all kinds of weather, terrain, environments. I have had ZERO issues with it. It's gone from 100 yards to 1685+ and everywhere in between in rain, snow, dry dusty conditions, mud, and I know I'm not the only one.

Of the scopes listed, I have the Minox, a NF 7-35, and have spent considerable time behind the Kahles. My ranking goes Minox>>>NF>>>>>>>>>>Kahles. A lot of you guys dumping on the Minox are ignoring the fact that a lot of people were sending their Kahles back because they weren't tracking for shit. The glass on the Kahles is subpar compared to the other two. It's not a terrible scope, but I see a lot of people ignoring the issues Kahles has had over the years.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: deersniper

alfmoonspace

Melmackian
Hessian
Belligerents
Minuteman
Jan 29, 2018
203
72
34
Idaho
So @Dthomas3523 had a relatively large sample size with 8-9 scopes kick the bucket.

I have had four so far and two have them have had issues. Like I said before in another thread, Minox QC struggles to actually do their job.

Edit: I love my Minox more than any other scope I have/had except for my TT (that’s including NF).
 
Last edited:
  • Sad
Reactions: deersniper

Bemoni

Private
Minuteman
Mar 10, 2018
27
20
6
Denmark
I'm with Kahles and have both a 318 and 525, after i was running S&B 5-25.
And i really like those Kahles, they are both gen 3 SKMR 3 and i have zero issues with them.

I had a talk with a representative from Swarovski ( who owns Kahles ) and he told me, that they in fact had some issues with the mechanics, but the majority of these issues, was related to the mounts people are using and rings that has been tightened way more than the 21 lbs recommended as max torque.

I run mine in Spuhr mounts and there has never been any problems with tracking or return to zero.
 
  • Like
Reactions: deersniper

Stoweit

Sergeant of the Hide
Hessian
Online Training Access
Belligerents
Jun 19, 2017
394
168
49
New England
Had K318, it was great scope. Shot accurately, clicks were good, but shooting with snow on the ground it was so purple was distracting. Great scope, but for that kind of money unacceptable.
 
  • Like
Reactions: deersniper

codym

Private
Belligerents
Minuteman
Jan 17, 2018
273
69
34
New Mexico
I have a 525i in a spuhr qdp mount. Zeroed it, shot 15 rounds of 6br, pulled it off moved it to my 280 ai found zero shot 25 rounds pulled it put it back on the 6 br dialed back to zero and shot a 6 round half moa group with a perfect wind and elevation. I will run a box test here in the next few days but from what I see it tracks fine. So did my 624I, ATACR's and my PM2. I get the glass thing but all these seem to be pretty damn reliable scopes.
 
  • Like
Reactions: deersniper

Mordamer

Professional Know It All
Belligerents
May 11, 2010
1,086
578
219
Hooker, OK
Compared to Nightforce the Kahles is like looking through a vintage milk bottle, and your lucky if the Minox turrets are still working at the end of your first range trip.

Next question.

I'm joking, of course. Owned all three, my favorite is Nightforce, but they were all great scopes. If you can't hit it with one, then you probably aren't going to with one of the others.
 
  • Haha
Reactions: canezach

Danrobberg

Lance Criminal
Belligerents
May 31, 2017
337
169
49
I think if you get a good minox they are tough to beat. But that’s if you get a good one. I had one that I sold for a s and b because my 10 year old son struggled with a center dot reticle he much prefers the h2cmr. It’s a nice scope but I really do miss my minox. My buddy still has his and has never had an issue. He’s pretty rough on stuff also. We shot the hornady prc match last year in Utah/Wyoming area and shot some real long distances and the scope ran flawlessly. I’m going to get shit on for this but his turrets are the best I’ve ever felt on any scope. Even tangent thetas. But every single minox I’ve felt, at least 6, has had a slightly different turret feel.
 

alfmoonspace

Melmackian
Hessian
Belligerents
Minuteman
Jan 29, 2018
203
72
34
Idaho
My current Minox is gold in terms of turrent feel but it doesn’t near my TT.

NF < QF.

Let that sink in for a min.
 

canezach

House of Chingasos
Belligerents
Apr 18, 2014
1,529
649
219
Colorado
My current Minox is gold in terms of turrent feel but it doesn’t near my TT.

NF < QF.

Let that sink in for a min.
My Minox turrets feel fine, but you're right, they aren't equal to my TT. Of course, my TT was almost $2k more. I can't say whether it's worth $2K more, though. That's such a hard question to answer whenever someone asks
 

GBMaryland

Sergeant
Belligerents
Feb 24, 2008
892
761
99
Maryland, US
QFQatar Foundation
QFQuail Forever
QFQuality Factor
QFQantas Airways Ltd (Australia, IATA airline code)
QFQuick Facts (US Census Bureau)
QFQualifying Facility
QFQuick Fix
QFQantas Flight (number)
QFQuick-Firing
QFQuery File
QFQuakeForge
QFQods Force (Iran)
QFQualified Facility
QFQuantity Frequency
QFQueue Full
QFQuantum Feedback
QFQuantize-And-Forward
QFQuench Frequency
 

lte82

Shooter
Belligerents
Mar 12, 2013
1,760
890
219
Shooting all through out the rev range and confirming zero. Just not babying it.
I've shot one of mine in 4 matches plus a handful of range days. Holds zero, tracks great, does everything I tell it. The one Minox I had that *did* have an issue was an issue from day 1. They replaced it with a new one. I just had to have one of my Schmidts elevation turret fixed, and a buddy had to have an Atacr turret rebuilt and some internals replaced this month. I think they can all fail. Best to keep a backup on hand if you can afford it.
 

Sixfivesavage

Sergeant
Online Training Access
Belligerents
Mar 30, 2013
1,708
847
219
Maryland
I've had multiples of all 3. My opinion....the Leupold mk5 is my choice. The illumination may be the only thing up in the air at this point for me. None of them are perfect in every way.
 

Healy

Online Training Member
Online Training Access
Belligerents
Minuteman
Oct 24, 2018
347
160
49
K624i beats any NF glass in my opinion, the k318i is one of the finest scopes I’ve ever used and a step above the k624i that’s just my opinion.
 
  • Like
Reactions: deersniper

TangoSierra916

Gunny Sergeant
Hessian
Belligerents
Minuteman
Oct 11, 2017
931
223
49
Madison, WI
Optically speaking the Kahles is sub-par compared to the NF and Minox. I’ve also heard of more mechanical issues with them than others. Between the Atacr and ZP5, optically I’d lean ZP5 but I prefer the turrets on the Atacr. Pick either, neither will disappoint. I personally run both Schmidt and Minox, and have several of each.

I can’t justify the price of a Tangent or ZCO. I don’t think there is really *anything* that offers much more than a razor 2, and they sell for $1500 here all day. $3600-4000+ is silly lol.
@lte82 - great point! The razor offers an excellent set of features for the price as . Flipping crazy price. I think beyond razor gen 2 pricing you begin to really pay for specific features and preferences as a few mentioned above. Many great options out there and a really good time to be a picky consumer and get what you want.