I need the perfect predator round

Jan 15, 2005
6,437
985
113
VA
#1
I think I'm probably asking too much. I need a round/bullet combo that will give enough penetration to put yotes down on a quartering shot if it hits bone but not blow massive exits, or blow up foxes. Also something that's flat shooting to 400yd or so and won't over penetrate.

Does this exist?

My experience so far with 22 cals is that if it's fast and flat you chance blow ups on entrance, if its fast and hits a fox broadside it blows out the exit side, if it's slow it's not flat. With 6mm's everything exits on broadside shots and the faster and lighter the bullet is, the worse the exit is and heavier bullets blow up on chest shots destroying the hide. I did the latter again last night.

I know the simple answer is to load a Barnes or other expanding bullet and just make sure the bullet is headed towards the vitals every time but then there's the issue of over penetration. That Barnes can be lethal for a LOOOOONNGGGG ways to cows in fields whereas a fragmenting bullet exiting isn't going far at all.

I've blown up probably 50% of everything I've shot recently one way or another, and have lost some or they ran a long ways before expiring from what was a well placed shot but just didn't have the gas to get to the vitals on a less than ideal shot.
 

Wyfox

Gun Snob
May 24, 2012
1,373
237
63
Wyoming
#3
I've killed hundreds of foxes and 'yotes and been down this road. What you're asking is the unicorn.

-Penetrates and DRT 'yotes
-Doesn't blow them up(including foxes)
-Flat shooting to 400yds

I've had pretty good luck with the fast 22's with a 69gr match hollow point, it normally anchors a yote or they run a very short distance after being double lunged. Exits are manageable, quarter sized usually unless you hit heavy bone. I have a 20" 22 creed barrel being put together now, going to give that a go this year.

Foxes are going to be messy! To consistently shoot fox and not blow them up you have to run a 17 or 204. I ran a 204 for years and have shot alot of fox and coyotes with it. I learned a few things too, don't ever use the vmax in a 204 on predators. I've lost count on how many runners and splash hits I've had with them. I switched to a 40gr Berger and life was kinda great, foxes were not blown up at all sometimes no exit and coyotes with good shot placement rarely had an exit. But you couldn't take marginal shots on a yote with a 204, they will run a long, long ways and you had to limit shots to 300-400 yards max depending on wind.

Once I started contest calling I got away from the 204 and started using a 22-250 and 6 creed for predators. I've basically got to the point if I shoot a coyote and he's not messed up and he has a good pale coat with no rubs I'll skin him. If it's blown up then I chalk it up as predator management and move on.
 
Last edited:

psinclair

Gunny Sergeant
Jul 11, 2008
3,313
97
48
61
Glasgow, Montana
#4
You don't get all three....

I'm shooting a suppressed GAP 6 Creed, and 105 Hybrids. With this rifle and two barrels, I've killed 860 coyotes in the past four years. I'd say 30-40% of them would be considered bad damage by excessive exit holes. Usually because the bullet struck bone, other than ribs..I want them dead, and have no concern about fur. I've been hunting coyotes for over 45 years and have used quite a variety of rifle/bullet combo's. There is give and take if you're a fur hunter. Just the way it is..
 

260284

Sergeant
Feb 15, 2017
480
50
28
#6
We don't see fox around here except in town, but I blew a 4" or bigger hole in a bobcat with the 50 gr Vmax @3100 fps out of a 223, so I loaded some 40 ge Vmax. Haven't shot a cat, but they drop coyotes. The wind blows them around, so I am back to 50's and even 53 Vmax. Never had a 50 exit a coyote.
 

Codiekfx400

Sergeant of the Hide
Jan 29, 2018
446
129
43
#8
You don't get all three....

I'm shooting a suppressed GAP 6 Creed, and 105 Hybrids. With this rifle and two barrels, I've killed 860 coyotes in the past four years. I'd say 30-40% of them would be considered bad damage by excessive exit holes. Usually because the bullet struck bone, other than ribs..I want them dead, and have no concern about fur. I've been hunting coyotes for over 45 years and have used quite a variety of rifle/bullet combo's. There is give and take if you're a fur hunter. Just the way it is..
When am I invited out for a tag along hunt? LOL nice work.
 
Likes: Bradu

xdeano

Sergeant
Oct 26, 2005
963
26
28
38
North Dakota
#9
If You're keeping hides take a look at some of the cutting edge raptor. I know skinny swears by them. Im like pat, I dont care about damage, ive had really good success using Berger hvld 105g and jlk 105, in a 6mm slr. Exits very in size depending on what you hit or don't hit. If you want a round that completely hammers a coyote a 80grn Berger out of a 22-243 going 3400fps is fantastic. Just jello on the inside, small exits.

Xdeano
 
Likes: Huckleberry75
Mar 30, 2013
1,252
119
63
Maryland
#14
We farm for a livin. Cattle and chickens. I kill lots coyotes. Shoot a “tactical” Ruger 77 that never leaves the farm trk. Buy bulk 55gr SP’s. This combo is rough on those big black birds that bother calves too!

You have those sons of bitches too? I swear, they are my mortal enemy.
 
Dec 31, 2011
691
93
28
39
Pennsboro, WV
#17
I have a 20 tac ar-15 for this purpose (400 and in, coyotes and fox). If the barrel went south tomorrow, I’d probably play with a 19-223 Calhoon. Maybe give James Calhoon a call, he’s incredibly nice and happy to talk.
 

2 dogs

Sergeant
Sep 13, 2005
267
1
18
Texas
#19
I’m shooting a 6mm BR twisted 1:14” running a 55 NBT at 3920fps. I’ve shot a coyote at about 140 yards in the shoulder. He was DRT, very small entrance and no exit. I also killed a buck at 225 yards with a neck/spine shot. Again a tiny entrance and no exit and an instant kill. Besides that it works with surgical placement on big hogs as well. Barrel is a 26” Hart, Tubb brake, Sendero contour.
 

kraigWY

CMP GSM MI
Feb 10, 2006
2,260
68
48
71
Wyoming
#20
I have a lot of rifles, and without a doubt my favorite Predator Round is the 204 Ruger. I like the 40 gr pills for coyotes and they do buck the wind better.

Have two 204 rifles, one in the Ruger #1, which is super nice and accurate. I also have a RAP in 204. I put a brake on the RAP, the 204 Ruger doesnt have a lot of recoil, but with a brake, you get to see the red mist because the barrel doesnt move at all on firing.
 

PowellSixO

New Hide Member
May 2, 2018
26
8
3
#21
.204 Ruger. 32 grain VMax.
This ^^^^^
I've had quarter sized exit holes at the biggest with bobcats, fox, and coyotes. Super deadly, and extremely accurate. Fast enough that you just point and shoot. The thing I really like is that it will work in an AR-15 too. There's something that's just comfortable for me using an AR when predator hunting. They feel good setting on a set of shooting sticks to me. I've killed roughly 40 coyotes with my 204 ruger thus far, and it has not let a single critter get away yet.
 

Attachments

May 17, 2018
69
26
8
#22
Up front I have zero actual experience shooting Yotes. It is something I have longed to do for many years however. Being I am now suffering exile in the Peoples Republic of California where almost everything is illegal except Pot and Illegal Aliens or as they call them here "undocumented Americans". I have been drooling over a 6.5 Creedmoor chassis model with and Night Force scope. In the desert here their fur sucks but there is a target rich environment. Some of the Yotes near 29 Palms that bred with the Marine Special Ops Dogs that at one time ran loose some on post are huge. While living in Landers I saw some Yotes running outside my fences the size of large German Shepherds. I had a big fence to keep them away from my lap dogs, and always went outside with my dogs armed. Neighbors that did not go out armed lost dogs to the Yotes coming right up and taking their dogs in front of them. Do you get the impression I don't like Yotes? I don't mind them until they get so brazen you have to carry a sidearm on your property behind 6'+ fences just so your dogs can safely do their business under guard outside. That is when they serious need thinning. You could hear shooting all around where I lived especially in the evening and at night as well as hear the pack howls on Yotes on run and when they a Kill.

Out in the Mojave Desert I would just like to see their numbers thinned but then all the "progressive tree huggers" would get their noses out of joint about hurting all the four legged assassins.
 

sandwarrior

Gunny Sergeant
Apr 21, 2007
4,552
332
83
in yooperland
#24
I think I'm probably asking too much. I need a round/bullet combo that will give enough penetration to put yotes down on a quartering shot if it hits bone but not blow massive exits, or blow up foxes. Also something that's flat shooting to 400yd or so and won't over penetrate.

Does this exist?

My experience so far with 22 cals is that if it's fast and flat you chance blow ups on entrance, if its fast and hits a fox broadside it blows out the exit side, if it's slow it's not flat. With 6mm's everything exits on broadside shots and the faster and lighter the bullet is, the worse the exit is and heavier bullets blow up on chest shots destroying the hide. I did the latter again last night.

I know the simple answer is to load a Barnes or other expanding bullet and just make sure the bullet is headed towards the vitals every time but then there's the issue of over penetration. That Barnes can be lethal for a LOOOOONNGGGG ways to cows in fields whereas a fragmenting bullet exiting isn't going far at all.

I've blown up probably 50% of everything I've shot recently one way or another, and have lost some or they ran a long ways before expiring from what was a well placed shot but just didn't have the gas to get to the vitals on a less than ideal shot.
The only thing I've ever seen work close to what you want is those oddball 80 and 90 gr. fmj 6mm or .257. Both can be pushed fast and if from a tight enough twist don't tend to go radically unstable and fragment before they exit.

You probably could get a bunch of surplus 55 gr. fmjbt in .224 and shoot them from a tight twisted .223/5.56. If you shoot them from the old 1-12" twist, they went radically unstable, fragmented and blew a hole out the back side.

You might try loading up short rounds. Which is using a low dose of fast powder and slow the bullet down 1k fps for close in shots. Just make sure separate and mark them so you don't go to use them later and forget they are slow.
 

Dirty8404

Sergeant of the Hide
Apr 17, 2018
158
84
28
#25
I call coyotes (5.56) and used to use 55gr vmax over benchmark, whacked a smaller coyote broadside at about 90 yards. Went to pick him up and the whole off side of his chest was gone and everything... just fell out.

Switched to 40gr vmax, no more exits. That said, my shots are usually under 300.

In my experience, there’s fur friendly, fast kills, and long range performance: pick two.
 
Likes: sandwarrior
Feb 24, 2010
261
28
28
48
TX
#29
So not to hijack this thread but just curious here but who has shot fox with 22LR subsonic at say 50 yards or less? I'm down to four chickens and need to be somewhat quiet when I dispatch that little shit. 300BO subsonic is available as next option as an fyi...

And no I don't want the fur...just the fox DRT.
 
Sep 16, 2009
4,432
430
83
#31
Properly placed SS 22 will be fine. If it runs a bit just move it to road and let it masquerade as road kill.
There are likely two with little ones this time of year.
 

Dirty8404

Sergeant of the Hide
Apr 17, 2018
158
84
28
#32
I’ve shot fox with a .22, just shoot them through the shoulders. Does a dandy job.

My brother swears by a .222 with 40s for fox and he calls a ton of them. Doesn’t tear up the hides too bad.
 

WHBD

Private
Jul 27, 2017
52
6
8
#33
I think I'm probably asking too much. I need a round/bullet combo that will give enough penetration to put yotes down on a quartering shot if it hits bone but not blow massive exits, or blow up foxes. Also something that's flat shooting to 400yd or so and won't over penetrate.

Does this exist?

My experience so far with 22 cals is that if it's fast and flat you chance blow ups on entrance, if its fast and hits a fox broadside it blows out the exit side, if it's slow it's not flat. With 6mm's everything exits on broadside shots and the faster and lighter the bullet is, the worse the exit is and heavier bullets blow up on chest shots destroying the hide. I did the latter again last night.

I know the simple answer is to load a Barnes or other expanding bullet and just make sure the bullet is headed towards the vitals every time but then there's the issue of over penetration. That Barnes can be lethal for a LOOOOONNGGGG ways to cows in fields whereas a fragmenting bullet exiting isn't going far at all.

I've blown up probably 50% of everything I've shot recently one way or another, and have lost some or they ran a long ways before expiring from what was a well placed shot but just didn't have the gas to get to the vitals on a less than ideal shot.
I used a 22 Hellcat(22x47 Lapua, trimmed to 1.8" to fit in an AR15 mag) with light bullets last season here in MD. I really think the combo I'm running is about as good an answer as you're going to find. Im pushing a 40gr BT 4320fps. Its FLAT, hammers coyotes and has been pretty tame on fox somehow. It usually exits, but rarely more than I can sew up. Head shots on either dog arent pretty. Ive found the BAllistic Tips are much better than VMaxs. They penetrate and expand, but dont explode.
You're more than welcome to come join us sometime. We're suppressed, thermal only and have a lot of properties.
 

maverickasu

Sergeant of the Hide
Jun 26, 2018
104
50
28
#35
.204 Ruger. 32 grain VMax.
THIS.. bar none the most underutilised cartridge. Inside of 400 it is a lazer beam and just kills stuff... your talking 4k FPS. And your going to get more barrel life than a 22-250 in my experience

I am interested in the 87 grain 6mm offering from hornady... But it would be hard to push me away from 204 for my go to varmint calling gun
 
Likes: HaroldCoulter
Oct 17, 2013
352
41
28
Morehead, KY
#36
.223 hand loaded with Nosler 40g BT's with muzzle vel of 3550-3600 (max load of H335). This is flat enough out to 400y. I used this load point blank out to 350y on PD's. Just hold on the head and hit the midline. For yotes at 400y, just zero at 250y and hold top of shoulder for a center mass hit. Or follow your ballistic charts if you don't want to hold over. Where you seeing yotes at 400y in VA anyways? I am lucky to see em at 100y most of the time. The light BT frags in the body and reduces big exit wounds. Is a bit much on foxes though. Lately I have been using the 25g 17WSM. Those are reasonably flat out to 400y and will still kill a yote with a decent hit. The 25 penetrates better than the 20 and is more accurate for me. Light handy and cheap too. It is not as sexy as a 6.5 Creedmore but who are we trying to impress?

Irish
 

Peterpan

Sergeant of the Hide
Jul 20, 2018
218
154
43
#37
I like the 6 br. Loaded heavy they are not terribly fast but have plenty of range and are easy as hell to make stupid accurate.
 
Likes: BLKWLFK9

Peterpan

Sergeant of the Hide
Jul 20, 2018
218
154
43
#38
So not to hijack this thread but just curious here but who has shot fox with 22LR subsonic at say 50 yards or less? I'm down to four chickens and need to be somewhat quiet when I dispatch that little shit. 300BO subsonic is available as next option as an fyi...

And no I don't want the fur...just the fox DRT.
Subsonic 22 long rifle works great within 50 yards. In fact most match ammo for 22 is sub sonic and can be very accurate. They are not to loud but a suppressor makes them very quiet and would help alot of course.
 

Adb1228

New Hide Member
Sep 10, 2018
35
9
8
#40
So not to hijack this thread but just curious here but who has shot fox with 22LR subsonic at say 50 yards or less? I'm down to four chickens and need to be somewhat quiet when I dispatch that little shit. 300BO subsonic is available as next option as an fyi...

And no I don't want the fur...just the fox DRT.
Get a .25 PCP air rifle and throw a can on it. Totally back yard friendly and will DRT a fox with a head shot.
 

HaroldCoulter

Online Training Member
Apr 28, 2012
143
64
28
San Angelo
#42
Sounds like 6mm, .243 or .204 are the options. Interesting thread!

I think a lot of what you're asking for comes down to bullet selection as mentioned by several above to really dial it in.
 

Fig

Janitor of the Hide
Mar 15, 2018
2,162
3,164
113
The Most Dangerous City in the USA
#44
I know this is old school, but...
02565598-B560-44BD-B81C-0C7A0A3FEF71.jpeg
These out of my .220 Swift will probably not exit a fox (I’ve never shot one). They won’t exit a groundhog in the body (they will blow the head off on a neck hit). They literally “grenade” into dust when they hit. I’m talking about a 4” deep wound that is the size of a baseball. Lights out, but minimal penetration. I run them about 4,300fps and have another two or three hundred before I start seeing pressure (but my percision starts to let go). Not many people shoot these anymore, but those of us who do generally swear by them. It’s 1:14 but it won’t hold groups if the pill is bigger than 35gr. I have no explanation for that other than it just doesn’t...
 

steve123

Lt. Colonel
Mar 16, 2008
7,633
412
83
Flagstaff, AZ
#45
I'm going to mess with a 17 remington with 30grn nagels.
Ive heard some good things from others. They say it just stuns them to death.
Xdeano
I used to use the 30 grain Golds in mine. I shot 6 yotes, all less than 200Y, and they were the perfect bullet for an almost undetectable entrance hole and no exit hole most of the time, which were small.

DRT most of the time too, sept when the shot went where it wasn't supposed to go.
 

xdeano

Sergeant
Oct 26, 2005
963
26
28
38
North Dakota
#46
I used to use the 30 grain Golds in mine. I shot 6 yotes, all less than 200Y, and they were the perfect bullet for an almost undetectable entrance hole and no exit hole most of the time, which were small.

DRT most of the time too, sept when the shot went where it wasn't supposed to go.
The 30 golds aren't being made anymore, it was sold to another guy who is in Texas, he's making them, not sure if he's got the same quality. I ended up buying some 30grn Nagel and some 32grn RBBT from Reed's. I'm pushing the 30 Nagels at 3920 right now.

xdeano
 

steve123

Lt. Colonel
Mar 16, 2008
7,633
412
83
Flagstaff, AZ
#47
The 30 golds aren't being made anymore, it was sold to another guy who is in Texas, he's making them, not sure if he's got the same quality. I ended up buying some 30grn Nagel and some 32grn RBBT from Reed's. I'm pushing the 30 Nagels at 3920 right now.

xdeano
Yes, I saw that.

I had a pretty good supply of them. A friend had to have that rifle and bullets. I wanted a 20-221AI instead so that's what I'm shooting right now.

3920 is pretty fast!
 

RNWRKNP

Sophisticated Redneck
Dec 13, 2017
1,334
1,574
113
PHX, AZ
#48
For you guys that are after coyote fur, is there a market for them anymore? I know I was shocked when I found out what a bobcat hide was running (3-400?) for a good one. For me, the best predator round is the one they don’t get up from. It’s always been about protecting the money on a hoof.
 

RNWRKNP

Sophisticated Redneck
Dec 13, 2017
1,334
1,574
113
PHX, AZ
#50
140 grain ELD-M works great on bobcats. If you do headshots, you don't risk ruining any of the fur, unless you require the head be intact as well lol!

View attachment 6947363 View attachment 6947364
What amazes me is how tough those bastards are. Perfect shot behind the shoulder with a 69g Sierra and still made it 50 yards. 6.5CM is in the bull pen waiting for it to cool off down here for coyotes and occasional cats.🤙
 
Likes: stello1001