How were '03 and Garand barrels rifled?

Forgetful Coyote

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The earliest powered type cut rifling machines where around the civil war. That being said....hand pulled cut rifling was still being done here in the U.S. by guys like Pope, Zischang, Schoyen where being used till about 1900.

I’m going to look to see if I can find the news video from like the late 80’s. It was done I forget the reason why but they had a new crew in Afghanistan when Russia was pulling out. They are in what I call some remote tent city and if you want to call a tent a gunstore....you name it they had it. I even seen WW1 Luger Artillery pistol hanging from a rope etc....anyways they showed a group of guys hand making AK47’s and there was one guy sitting on the ground hand pulling a cut rifling head and he was hand cutting the rifling/grooves into a barrel!
Also, are you able to divulge how much TIR drift per inch yall's gundrill achieves on average? Is it a counter rotating drill?
Reason I ask.. Eg Preferred Barrel Blanks claims .00071"/in on average.... is this particularly straighter than many/most custom barrel makers?

I'd like to caveat that I know "straightness don't mean sh!t in regards to accuracy, within reason at least! As a matter of fact, quite a few successful long range benchrest shooters prefer a bit more curve as opposed to a bit less(as counter intuitive as that sounds.. its true, I've spoken with em)!!!!!! I also need to caveat that its highly likely you ain't gone see this "curve" with the naked eye holding the barrel in your hand.. you'd need to 9ut her ina lathe and spin it somewhat/fairly quick to see the "curve".. what most smihts do is index the tube so the curvature is pointed upward, so as to maximize LR trajectory/capability..

However, I DO theorize that its beneficial, even if only a lil bit, that the bore ID center-line be "concentric"(is that the rigjt word? Im 8 Yuenglings deep) to the barrel outer diameter...?? Ie if you ran 26" of floss in the exact center of the bore, from breech -> muzzle on 26" barrel, and then each millimeter from breech -> muzzle measured distance(or would it be radius??) from that point on the floss to a corresponding spot on the outer diameter of the barrel, and it was very consistent/more consistent than a group of other barrels, with all else being equal... I DO believe that manner/type of straightness/concentricity would be beneficial, whether talkin tapered or heavy straight BR/F-Class 1.250" and 1.450" even if only a small way. Eq; if the barrel walls' widths are consistent or close as possible to consistent, the barrel should expand more evenly and hence be a bit less affected by heat.
 

Frank Green

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Here is a short clip of the P&W Grasshopper in action:


The video really isn't needed after Frank's written description - it was that good!
Thanks for posting that E.Bryant!

Not the machine that Krieger has but it’s pretty close and yep that’s pretty much how it works. If I recall correctly the machine he has was actually used at the old Steven’s factory. Which years later would become Savage. Pretty cool history stuff!
 

Frank Green

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I was wonder the impression Pope used a lathe converted -> rifling machine...??

'Nother question I wanted to ask Mr @Frank Green .. I read several times ever since Crucible went belly up, barrel makes have or at least had been havin trouble finding good quality steel..??

Yet I still see a website for Crucible.. AND they STILL lisr 416R..?? Whats up with that sir..??
Pope did use a converted lathe later in years but from several books I have that talk and show some pic’s his early machines he hand pulled the cutters.

Another interesting tid bit was at least with his Schuetzen barrels after bore reaming (could be wrong I’d have to look it up again) he then chambered the barrel. Then he prelapped the barrel and then he rifled it. No finish lapping was done if I recall correctly. By reaming the bore, then prelapping it (what I still call it) after chambering it he got rid of any tool marks the reamer would cut in the throat area of the chamber. He then inserted a insert into the chamber area that was basically bore size and then he pulled the cutter thru to rifle the barrel.
 

Forgetful Coyote

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One more thing I forgot to metnions.. it stated in the resiurce @cplnorton posted ^^^^, that barrles were striaghtened aftrer finishing!!!!!!!!1 Did they know back then that thats harmfiul to accuracy via inducing stress..??
 

Forgetful Coyote

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Pope did use a converted lathe later in years but from several books I have that talk and show some pic’s his early machines he hand pulled the cutters.

Another interesting tid bit was at least with his Schuetzen barrels after bore reaming (could be wrong I’d have to look it up again) he then chambered the barrel. Then he prelapped the barrel and then he rifled it. No finish lapping was done if I recall correctly. By reaming the bore, then prelapping it (what I still call it) after chambering it he got rid of any tool marks the reamer would cut in the throat area of the chamber. He then inserted a insert into the chamber area that was basically bore size and then he pulled the cutter thru to rifle the barrel.
WOW!!!!!!!! That is extremely interestin Mr Frank!! Thx a ton for sharing that.
Because Bill Calfee(whether you like/dislike em, he builds COMPETITIVE rifles!!), he said the reason tht cut rifled barrels just barely can't quite shoot up to snuff w/ button barrles in rimfire benchrest cuz you'd have to chamber before rifling,.. he theorized that if you coudld chamber the barrel & THEN cut rifle it, it should/very well may catch up and quite possibly surprass button barrels popularity/record-setting/# of wins in rimfire BR, as we have seen ahppen in centerfire benchrest, both long, mid, and short range competition!

ETA: also @Frank Green -
Also, are you able to divulge how much TIR drift per inch yall's gundrill achieves on average? Is it a counter rotating drill?
Reason I ask.. Eg Preferred Barrel Blanks claims .00071"/in on average.... is this particularly straighter than many/most custom barrel makers ???
I know "straightness don't mean sh!t in regards to accuracy, within reason at least! As a matter of fact, quite a few successful long range benchrest shooters prefer a bit more curve as opposed to a bit less(as counter intuitive as that sounds.. its true, I've spoken with em)!!!!!! I also need to caveat that its highly likely you ain't gone see this "curve" with the naked eye holding the barrel in your hand.. you'd need to 9ut her ina lathe and spin it somewhat/fairly quick to see the "curve".. what most smihts do is index the tube so the curvature is pointed upward, so as to maximize LR trajectory/capability..
I do however theorize that a barrel with the most consitent barrel wall width from breech->muzzle would shoot better as it got hotter, due to more even expansion..? BUT I aint no metallurgitst!!!
 
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Frank Green

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Also, are you able to divulge how much TIR drift per inch yall's gundrill achieves on average? Is it a counter rotating drill?
Reason I ask.. Eg Preferred Barrel Blanks claims .00071"/in on average.... is this particularly straighter than many/most custom barrel makers?

I'd like to caveat that I know "straightness don't mean sh!t in regards to accuracy, within reason at least! As a matter of fact, quite a few successful long range benchrest shooters prefer a bit more curve as opposed to a bit less(as counter intuitive as that sounds.. its true, I've spoken with em)!!!!!! I also need to caveat that its highly likely you ain't gone see this "curve" with the naked eye holding the barrel in your hand.. you'd need to 9ut her ina lathe and spin it somewhat/fairly quick to see the "curve".. what most smihts do is index the tube so the curvature is pointed upward, so as to maximize LR trajectory/capability..

However, I DO theorize that its beneficial, even if only a lil bit, that the bore ID center-line be "concentric"(is that the rigjt word? Im 8 Yuenglings deep) to the barrel outer diameter...?? Ie if you ran 26" of floss in the exact center of the bore, from breech -> muzzle on 26" barrel, and then each millimeter from breech -> muzzle measured distance(or would it be radius??) from that point on the floss to a corresponding spot on the outer diameter of the barrel, and it was very consistent/more consistent than a group of other barrels, with all else being equal... I DO believe that manner/type of straightness/concentricity would be beneficial, whether talkin tapered or heavy straight BR/F-Class 1.250" and 1.450" even if only a small way. Eq; if the barrel walls' widths are consistent or close as possible to consistent, the barrel should expand more evenly and hence be a bit less affected by heat.
Yikes! I could write a book on what your all asking there! I didn’t mean that in a bad way! There is quite a bit that goes into it and some places cut corners during barrel making. One is to save money but we always say there are no cutting corners in making a good barrel. So I‘m not going to get into every detail.

Some short comments back. In the barrel world I will tell you that during gun drilling if you are hitting .0005” run out per inch of barrel length that is pretty much considered perfect. New gun drilling machines spin the drill and in some cases you can add a counter rotating feature to the drill but usually this counter rotating feature can only spin the blank to say 250rpm on the machines that I’ve seen. Could be newer ones out there. That being said we don’t agree with spinning the drill. That long drill is like a spaghetti noodle. Our average drill bit length is 48”-60” long. So we still believe the old P&W gun drilling machines still give you the best work. Something might be able to match them but I don’t think you will match the consistency. The drill just feeds and again we spin the blank. Think of a drill press. Usually the smaller the drill bit the faster you spin the bit. When we got to smaller drill sizes we spin the blank faster.....go bigger on the drill size and will spin the blank slower. For example on drilling a .20cal blank we are usually spinning the blank over 4000 rpm. Also we do at times adjust the feed rate of the drill.

Just in the last few months we had to do a couple of different jobs for ammunition test barrels and barrels for 50cal as well as a job for some Ma Duece barrels. One job which is for the Gov’t for accuracy test barrels those barrels will finish at 44.75” long. Blanks are 46”. The Ma Duece blanks where needed to be 47” long. All of the blanks started out at 3” od material. The total number of barrels between those two orders was almost a 100pcs. We only had a total of 3 barrels that had a total run out of .025”! Do the math...on those 3 that is a average of .0005” per inch. The rest of the barrels averaged .010” to .015” total run out. At .015” that’s basically .0003” per inch on the 47” blanks! The ones with .010” run out....that’s .0002” per inch!!!!

Hmmmm.....I prefer a straighter blank. Never heard a BR guy tell me they like/want more curve or run out if you want to call it that in the blank. That would be a new one to me.

When you look down the bore of the barrel. Look for concentric light rings. Think of a guy smoking a cigar and blowing smoke rings. If the light ring is thicker on one side and thinner on the opposite side....to us that is a barrel that has a bow (bend if you want to call it that) in the blank. To meI’ve seen ones with a slight bow and shoot just awesome but if it has a bad bow to it that to me shows stress in the blank. This is also why we don’t straighten any barrels. If you straighten the blank your inducing stress into the barrel and some guys wonder why the gun/rifle strings rounds as the gun/barrel heats up. Let the barrel cool and it starts shooting at point A again. The steel has a memory and it will go back to where it started. With that being said there are other things that can cause the barrel to string/throw rounds and not just the barrel. Ammo/bullets, the environment, don’t forget the guy behind the gun pulling the trigger also!
 

Forgetful Coyote

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@Frank
Yikes! I could write a book on what your all asking there! I didn’t mean that in a bad way! There is quite a bit that goes into it and some places cut corners during barrel making. One is to save money but we always say there are no cutting corners in making a good barrel. So I‘m not going to get into every detail.

Some short comments back. In the barrel world I will tell you that during gun drilling if you are hitting .0005” run out per inch of barrel length that is pretty much considered perfect. New gun drilling machines spin the drill and in some cases you can add a counter rotating feature to the drill but usually this counter rotating feature can only spin the blank to say 250rpm on the machines that I’ve seen. Could be newer ones out there. That being said we don’t agree with spinning the drill. That long drill is like a spaghetti noodle. Our average drill bit length is 48”-60” long. So we still believe the old P&W gun drilling machines still give you the best work. Something might be able to match them but I don’t think you will match the consistency. The drill just feeds and again we spin the blank. Think of a drill press. Usually the smaller the drill bit the faster you spin the bit. When we got to smaller drill sizes we spin the blank faster.....go bigger on the drill size and will spin the blank slower. For example on drilling a .20cal blank we are usually spinning the blank over 4000 rpm. Also we do at times adjust the feed rate of the drill.

Just in the last few months we had to do a couple of different jobs for ammunition test barrels and barrels for 50cal as well as a job for some Ma Duece barrels. One job which is for the Gov’t for accuracy test barrels those barrels will finish at 44.75” long. Blanks are 46”. The Ma Duece blanks where needed to be 47” long. All of the blanks started out at 3” od material. The total number of barrels between those two orders was almost a 100pcs. We only had a total of 3 barrels that had a total run out of .025”! Do the math...on those 3 that is a average of .0005” per inch. The rest of the barrels averaged .010” to .015” total run out. At .015” that’s basically .0003” per inch on the 47” blanks! The ones with .010” run out....that’s .0002” per inch!!!!

Hmmmm.....I prefer a straighter blank. Never heard a BR guy tell me they like/want more curve or run out if you want to call it that in the blank. That would be a new one to me.

When you look down the bore of the barrel. Look for concentric light rings. Think of a guy smoking a cigar and blowing smoke rings. If the light ring is thicker on one side and thinner on the opposite side....to us that is a barrel that has a bow (bend if you want to call it that) in the blank. To meI’ve seen ones with a slight bow and shoot just awesome but if it has a bad bow to it that to me shows stress in the blank. This is also why we don’t straighten any barrels. If you straighten the blank your inducing stress into the barrel and some guys wonder why the gun/rifle strings rounds as the gun/barrel heats up. Let the barrel cool and it starts shooting at point A again. The steel has a memory and it will go back to where it started. With that being said there are other things that can cause the barrel to string/throw rounds and not just the barrel. Ammo/bullets, the environment, don’t forget the guy behind the gun pulling the trigger also!
I should caveat that with it only being 2 BR shooters preferring a slight curve. Its been a long time but I believe they thought it tuned better.

Also, on straightening barrels, as I noted above: Springfield musta not noticed thats detrimental because they straightened barrels..?? I wonder if they simply aint know its detrimental or ifi it was for reasons of consistency/interchangeability among stocks..?? Maybe they did know it was detrimental as I wonder if 1903NM & M1 NM barrels were straightened..??
Thay probly just used barrels which required no straightening for NM barrels. This is how the PSG! barrels were, whichever barrels came out that required no straightening were designated for PSG!/MSG90 barrles.
 

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I've got another picture or two at work of barrel straightening but this is how it was done. The blank was inserted into the machine/call it a press. There is a block in the middle per say and a block on each outside end. A guy would look down the bore of the barrel and by eye index it and bring the press down and straighten the blank.

According to the book Marlin now uses a machine to do it and not by a person. I know Savage till at least the 70's maybe early 80's still did it this way.

Don't know if Springfield Armory (old SA) straightened barrels or not. Never seen any documentation that they did.

Again to us straightening a barrel is bad juju. For a factory sporter type barrel....I get it. On a hunting rifle and for a shooter who doesn't shoot a ton of rounds thru the barrel and or get it hot most likely doesn't really effect the accuracy a ton.

Also on lower grade/quality type barrels on lets say more of a factory type rifle it's about how fast they can get it done/get the barrel made. Time is money. So instead of scrapping the blank.....the one here or there they straighten it to use it.

Just a couple/few years ago I was watching that military channel where they go to a defense contractor and watch how military items are made. They went to a AR manufacturer and was shocked when I seen a worker putting a partially assembled AR barrel into a arbor press and going off the o.d. with a indicator would straighten the blank until a gauge pin would drop thru the bore. I guess it's a machinegun in the end! You get what you pay for.

I just recently (don't ask me to do this for anyone) took a 70's made Savage 112V barrel (223 Rem.) that was a take off for a gun I rebuilt for my son. This was the older J series single shot varmint/target rifles they made. Actually pretty nice guns. Anyways the bore was heavily shot and was pitted. So while waiting for my new 6.5mm blank for my rebuild/build of a model 110S in left hand (silhouette rifle) I took the 223 barrel and got a hair up my butt to rebore it to 6.5mm and rerifle it. The barrel had a slight bow to the muzzle end but it wan't horrible. The barrel turned out excellent. Rechambered it to 6.5CM. The rifling was done in 5R and 1-8 twist. I shortened the barrel from 26" original down to 23" and ended up cutting the bowed section completely off. I've done a couple quick tests with the rifle and it's shooting box Hornady 140ELDM ammo in the .5moa range and handloads with 135 ATIPs in the .21 to .32moa range and I've shot it out to 430 yards and the frickin stock isn't even bedded yet.
 

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sandwarrior

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Here is a better pic compliments of accurate shooter/Savage/cast boolits.

So as of 2011 Savage was still straightening they're barrels.

I stand corrected on old SA they did straighten they're barrels.
FWIW, I watched a video on Ed Shilen helping Bergara get set up to step up selling barrels. The switch to button rifling was done, of course. And, straightening the barrels was part of the video. This isn't the video, but it explains that it is done:

I thought everybody straightened barrels. Interesting to know some do not.:unsure:
 

sandwarrior

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SW, Like I said, your inducing stress into the blank. Your just asking for problems.
I would think so too. They also showed the barrels going through 2 normalizing processes to alleviate those stresses. Which, to my thinking, might alleviate stresses. But, how in the heck can one keep a barrel straight with that much heat on it?
 

sinister

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John Benjamin walked me through his barrel-making process from rod stock, gun bore-hole drilling, button-pulling, and heat stress-relief. I can't remember if he did cryo treatment.

All fascinating stuff.

Here's a video tour of John Krieger's factory and process:

 
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Frank Green

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I would think so too. They also showed the barrels going through 2 normalizing processes to alleviate those stresses. Which, to my thinking, might alleviate stresses. But, how in the heck can one keep a barrel straight with that much heat on it?
Thing is no one can measure for residual stress in the blank. Just because lets say you stress relieve it a couple of times doesn't mean it's completely gone and usually it's there to some extent.

Also depending on how the barrel is made....reheating it can effect bore dimensions as well and it's usually in a bad way. I've seen it happen on other brands/makes of barrels.

Quality of steel is another important factor. Place things they can skimp on the steel and then when you machine it, heat treat it etc...the steel ends up doing stupid silly stuff. You just end up chasing problems.
 
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Forgetful Coyote

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FWIW, I watched a video on Ed Shilen helping Bergara get set up to step up selling barrels. The switch to button rifling was done, of course. And, straightening the barrels was part of the video. This isn't the video, but it explains that it is done:

I thought everybody straightened barrels. Interesting to know some do not.:unsure:
That is interesting. Surely Shilen aint straightening their's..?? At least not the Select Matches, right Mr @Frank Green ?? Also to be clear, I'm with you on straighter = better. Lot of those BR guys have some interesting thoughts and a lot of the time it works for them too LOL.

Also, can't at least a small amount of runout be corrected when reaming? Or will the reamer simply follow the drilled hole no matter what you try to do? As well meant to ask if you ever heard anything feedback-wise one way or the other on the GKH barrels you did?

I'd be curious to see if H&K still straightens their rifle barrels, I wouldn't be surprised, at least for the regular rack grade G36's, 416's and 417's. Like I said above, back when they were making G3's, supposedly they had a guy there whose only job was straightening barrels and he did it by hand, apparently had been doing it for like 30+ years. The barrels that didn't require any straightening were reserved for PSG1's and MSG90 precision rifles.
Thanks a bunch sir.
 

Frank Green

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Don’t know if Shilen straightens or not.

No you cannot correct a bore that is off by reaming. The reamer has to follow the hole. If you try and push the reamer and or force it the reamer will either cut to a non proper size or I guess I just should say make the hole worse.

Not sure on H&K.

Welcome!
 

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That is interesting. Surely Shilen aint straightening their's..?? At least not the Select Matches, right Mr @Frank Green ?? Also to be clear, I'm with you on straighter = better. Lot of those BR guys have some interesting thoughts and a lot of the time it works for them too LOL.

Also, can't at least a small amount of runout be corrected when reaming? Or will the reamer simply follow the drilled hole no matter what you try to do? As well meant to ask if you ever heard anything feedback-wise one way or the other on the GKH barrels you did?

I'd be curious to see if H&K still straightens their rifle barrels, I wouldn't be surprised, at least for the regular rack grade G36's, 416's and 417's. Like I said above, back when they were making G3's, supposedly they had a guy there whose only job was straightening barrels and he did it by hand, apparently had been doing it for like 30+ years. The barrels that didn't require any straightening were reserved for PSG1's and MSG90 precision rifles.
Thanks a bunch sir.
I believe Shilen straightens. It showed in the video that he was showing them how to do that. That also might affect what grade it is when it goes out the door. Douglas does the same thing with, "It's a Douglas, or It's an "air gauged" Douglas. Shilen, might call it a 'match' or just a 'Shilen' barrel.

Like you, Frank, if it ain't super straight it ain't going out the door with your name on it, or it's not a match and doesn't sell as such. Selling less than superb quality, even though you state so, isn't going to make your super barrels sell for top price. Added: Thus why some makers sell those off to other brand name companies.

The truth is not every barrel can come out as a true match, minimal variation, with no stresses in it. How you market the detritus is up to the barrel maker. Some barrels that shouldn't shoot, still do a pretty good job. And, some that should, don't. Narrowing those factors down and serving those who understand what does and does not shoot, is a good key to doing business. Meaning: you always make the best barrel you can. But, when you can't make the best benchrest quality barrel, it will still sell to someone who doesn't need that kind of accuracy. Do you, or don't you, put your name on it as the quality of barrel that it is.
 
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Forgetful Coyote

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I wouldnt be too surprised if Shilen straightens their standard barrels.. I'd be astounded if they straightened their Select Match's..!!
 

Frank Green

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I believe Shilen straightens. It showed in the video that he was showing them how to do that. That also might affect what grade it is when it goes out the door. Douglas does the same thing with, "It's a Douglas, or It's an "air gauged" Douglas. Shilen, might call it a 'match' or just a 'Shilen' barrel.
I thought they straightened but not sure. If I see Wade at Shot Show next week I’ll ask him.

From what I understand and what your paying for is bore size uniformity and or closer to min spec tolerances. That’s why the different grades.

You have to pull the button thru the bore to button rifle it. It has to be as a blank. No shape/no contour. The blank cannot have any contour etc...on the outside is if it does the difference in wall thickness will play hell on the bore/groove sizes. If the blank varies on the od and you when you pull the button thru the blank the steel will expand and spring back. Button rifling is a basically a cold staging process. So for example if you are doing a .308 barrel the button size might have to be around .3115” or .3120” etc....and the size of the button will change from steel lot to steel lot possibly as well. Hard enough time holding bore uniformity on a unturned blank try and imagine the blank having a contour/shape to it.

After button rifling the blank has to be restress relieved and again no way to measure residual stress.

Then the button barrel gets contoured.....again any residual stress in the blank during the contouring process, or things like fluting or even threading the muzzle and the bore can relieve itself/go sour. When this happens you cannot make it go back. Having it go sour at the muzzle is the last place you want it to happen as the muzzles crown is the last thing the bullet touches when it leaves the barrel.

Local guy just brought a 6.5x47 Howa rifle in yesterday with a button barrel and a threaded muzzle. Cannot get it to shoot any better than 1.5” groups at a 100. When I gauged the barrel the threaded area on the muzzle was +.0004” bigger then the rest of the bore. The bore before this already was measuring .2564” and at the threaded area it was measuring .2568”. Same thing in the groove...+.0004” bigger. Bad juju!

Check out the attached video (had nothing to do with making it)


The last two barrels are ours and yes you can argue that the bore size didn’t change on ours because of the bigger threads but we’ve turned 2.280” diameter material down to 5/8 threads for suppressor test barrels for the Gov’t and the bore sizes didn’t change on a single one.

When Robert made the video his point wasn’t to hack on a particular barrel maker and that’s why he doesn’t say who made what but all of the other ones are button made barrels.

Air gauging isn’t all it’s cracked up to be. Air gauging reads the low spots....mechanical gauges read the high spots. The difference in reading is a .0001”. The air gauging is usually simpler for the average person to use. Mechanicals take a little more finesse but are more versatile. We have and use both but use the mechanical more than the air. Even air gauges you can move the wand a little off center and you can easily change the reading of the bore of the barrel by a .0001” or more.
 
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Frank Green

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For sure had nothing to do with making this video.....

You can fast forward to about the 6:00 minute mark. You can watch the button entering the blank. This is called a combination button. The lands/twist are built into the button and at the very end of the button is the bore finisher. You can see how the face of the steel gets deformed when the button enters the blank. Just before the 6 minute mark on the video it’s mentioned that the bore is finished to 2 microns.......?

Also the twist is being helped by the machine in the rotation but because of the process and if the button hits a hard or soft spot in the steel it can effect the twist uniformity. It can get slower and even speed back up. I’ll say some places don’t even try and help guide the twist. A barrel that has a non uniform twist and or a twist that has a negative to it (gets slower) has in my opinion a huge effect on the type of bullet/load the gun will like to shoot. Or should I say be more load sensitive. I’ve seen button barrels where the twist started out at 1-8 but by the time it got to the muzzle end it was 1-8.75.

Again the straighter the barrel blank....the more uniform the twist and the more uniform bore and groove size over the length of the barrel and the more stress free the blank....the more forgiving the barrel is going to be.

 

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Mr. Frank Green,

Thank you for the enlightening posts. I drill a little. Stationary drill, rotate work piece. Drill feed rate and rotation RPM dependent on steel type. I use short drills.<24". We straighten. There is a stress relief operation after (hot furnace to an accurate temp for an exact amount of time).

Above..."2 microns...?"

I question that as well. 2 microns is 0.002mm if my memory serves me properly. That is 0.000078".

That is a damn tight tolerance and I would have to see it (gauge it myself) to believe it.

We hold +/- 0.003mm on OD for our product and it meets machine and process Cpk.

E
 

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For sure had nothing to do with making this video.....

You can fast forward to about the 6:00 minute mark. You can watch the button entering the blank. This is called a combination button. The lands/twist are built into the button and at the very end of the button is the bore finisher. You can see how the face of the steel gets deformed when the button enters the blank. Just before the 6 minute mark on the video it’s mentioned that the bore is finished to 2 microns.......?

Also the twist is being helped by the machine in the rotation but because of the process and if the button hits a hard or soft spot in the steel it can effect the twist uniformity. It can get slower and even speed back up. I’ll say some places don’t even try and help guide the twist. A barrel that has a non uniform twist and or a twist that has a negative to it (gets slower) has in my opinion a huge effect on the type of bullet/load the gun will like to shoot. Or should I say be more load sensitive. I’ve seen button barrels where the twist started out at 1-8 but by the time it got to the muzzle end it was 1-8.75.

Again the straighter the barrel blank....the more uniform the twist and the more uniform bore and groove size over the length of the barrel and the more stress free the blank....the more forgiving the barrel is going to be.


Mr Green,

You have an order in your shop for a left hand gain twist .308 to a party with a name very similar to my Hide handle, although I don't know that person.

If it makes things clear to everyone here perhaps a video of that specific barrel in production would be enlightening.

Of course it wouldn't be fair to move me, I mean them, to the head of the line but you know educational purposes and all there might be good value in doing so......... :)
 
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Frank Green

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Mr Green,

You have an order in your shop for a left hand gain twist .308 to a party with a name very similar to my Hide handle, although I don't know that person.

If it makes things clear to everyone here perhaps a video of that specific barrel in production would be enlightening.

Of course it wouldn't be fair to move me, I mean them, to the head of the line but you know educational purposes and all there might be good value in doing so......... :)
Well I won’t be able to check or do anything till after next week. Leaving for shot show today.

Give me a reminder after next week.
 
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Forgetful Coyote

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For sure had nothing to do with making this video.....

You can fast forward to about the 6:00 minute mark. You can watch the button entering the blank. This is called a combination button. The lands/twist are built into the button and at the very end of the button is the bore finisher. You can see how the face of the steel gets deformed when the button enters the blank. Just before the 6 minute mark on the video it’s mentioned that the bore is finished to 2 microns.......?

Also the twist is being helped by the machine in the rotation but because of the process and if the button hits a hard or soft spot in the steel it can effect the twist uniformity. It can get slower and even speed back up. I’ll say some places don’t even try and help guide the twist. A barrel that has a non uniform twist and or a twist that has a negative to it (gets slower) has in my opinion a huge effect on the type of bullet/load the gun will like to shoot. Or should I say be more load sensitive. I’ve seen button barrels where the twist started out at 1-8 but by the time it got to the muzzle end it was 1-8.75.

Again the straighter the barrel blank....the more uniform the twist and the more uniform bore and groove size over the length of the barrel and the more stress free the blank....the more forgiving the barrel is going to be.

Mr Frank you're the best sir!
@Tucker301 or @padom or @lowlight ... is there any way we could make this one a sticky? Lots of interesting stuff here... I didn't necessarily intend for my thread to get this technical but I appreciate it all the same! (y)

I also wanted to ask Mr @Frank Green , didnt yall get one a them Sunnen hones? Do you still hand lap, and at what point is the hone used? I'd reckon pre-reaming or maybe post-reaming/pre-rifling??

- Also, do yall have any sort of method for determining the quality/consistency of the steel you receive? Or do you leave that to the manufacturer, and if a barrel ends up bent/bowed due to some apparent residual stress being relieved, yall just throw that one out? Or eg: are you able to determine if a barrel has a hard or soft spot(s) in it? I know cut rifling is much more forgiving in this regard, in that it will still cut the twist just as precisely regardless if it hits a hard/soft area...

I aint a metallurgist by any means, maybe this is a stupid question.. but is the bar stock yall receive from the steel supplier, is it cast or forged? Any advantage one way or the other re: cast vs forged bar stock?

Krieger offered some gain twist barrels for benchrest through Bruno's Shooter's Supply a few years ago... how in the world did they do that with a Pratt? I also understand that ALL Rock Creek cut rifled barrels have a slight gain..

Thanks again sir and all the best to you and your's
 

Tucker301

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I thought they straightened but not sure. If I see Wade at Shot Show next week I’ll ask him.

From what I understand and what your paying for is bore size uniformity and or closer to min spec tolerances. That’s why the different grades.

You have to pull the button thru the bore to button rifle it. It has to be as a blank. No shape/no contour. The blank cannot have any contour etc...on the outside is if it does the difference in wall thickness will play hell on the bore/groove sizes. If the blank varies on the od and you when you pull the button thru the blank the steel will expand and spring back. Button rifling is a basically a cold staging process. So for example if you are doing a .308 barrel the button size might have to be around .3115” or .3120” etc....and the size of the button will change from steel lot to steel lot possibly as well. Hard enough time holding bore uniformity on a unturned blank try and imagine the blank having a contour/shape to it.

After button rifling the blank has to be restress relieved and again no way to measure residual stress.

Then the button barrel gets contoured.....again any residual stress in the blank during the contouring process, or things like fluting or even threading the muzzle and the bore can relieve itself/go sour. When this happens you cannot make it go back. Having it go sour at the muzzle is the last place you want it to happen as the muzzles crown is the last thing the bullet touches when it leaves the barrel.

Local guy just brought a 6.5x47 Howa rifle in yesterday with a button barrel and a threaded muzzle. Cannot get it to shoot any better than 1.5” groups at a 100. When I gauged the barrel the threaded area on the muzzle was +.0004” bigger then the rest of the bore. The bore before this already was measuring .2564” and at the threaded area it was measuring .2568”. Same thing in the groove...+.0004” bigger. Bad juju!

Check out the attached video (had nothing to do with making it)


The last two barrels are ours and yes you can argue that the bore size didn’t change on ours because of the bigger threads but we’ve turned 2.280” diameter material down to 5/8 threads for suppressor test barrels for the Gov’t and the bore sizes didn’t change on a single one.

When Robert made the video his point wasn’t to hack on a particular barrel maker and that’s why he doesn’t say who made what but all of the other ones are button made barrels.

Air gauging isn’t all it’s cracked up to be. Air gauging reads the low spots....mechanical gauges read the high spots. The difference in reading is a .0001”. The air gauging is usually simpler for the average person to use. Mechanicals take a little more finesse but are more versatile. We have and use both but use the mechanical more than the air. Even air gauges you can move the wand a little off center and you can easily change the reading of the bore of the barrel by a .0001” or more.

So why not make a barrel the desired overall length plus thread length and then back bore, if that's the right term, the length of the threads to several thousands over to insure that the bullet is released in advance of the threaded portion?
I'm not a machinist, so I'm asking.
 

Frank Green

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So why not make a barrel the desired overall length plus thread length and then back bore, if that's the right term, the length of the threads to several thousands over to insure that the bullet is released in advance of the threaded portion?
I'm not a machinist, so I'm asking.
You probably could but the biggest issue in doing something like that is how do you properly crown the bore edge where it’s recessed back from the threaded portion. I’ve seen plenty of barrels where the smith machined the muzzle brake as part of the barrel but the crown on the inside was horrible and effected the way the barrel/gun shot. Can you do it. I’ll say yes but practical....probably not.
 

Tucker301

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It just seemed to me that if you can precision machine a chamber several inches deep then a crown wouldn't be much of an issue.
 

Frank Green

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Mr Frank you're the best sir!
@Tucker301 or @padom or @lowlight ... is there any way we could make this one a sticky? Lots of interesting stuff here... I didn't necessarily intend for my thread to get this technical but I appreciate it all the same! (y)

I also wanted to ask Mr @Frank Green , didnt yall get one a them Sunnen hones? Do you still hand lap, and at what point is the hone used? I'd reckon pre-reaming or maybe post-reaming/pre-rifling??

- Also, do yall have any sort of method for determining the quality/consistency of the steel you receive? Or do you leave that to the manufacturer, and if a barrel ends up bent/bowed due to some apparent residual stress being relieved, yall just throw that one out? Or eg: are you able to determine if a barrel has a hard or soft spot(s) in it? I know cut rifling is much more forgiving in this regard, in that it will still cut the twist just as precisely regardless if it hits a hard/soft area...

I aint a metallurgist by any means, maybe this is a stupid question.. but is the bar stock yall receive from the steel supplier, is it cast or forged? Any advantage one way or the other re: cast vs forged bar stock?

Krieger offered some gain twist barrels for benchrest through Bruno's Shooter's Supply a few years ago... how in the world did they do that with a Pratt? I also understand that ALL Rock Creek cut rifled barrels have a slight gain..

Thanks again sir and all the best to you and your's
We actually tested the prototype Sunnen Hone machine. After the barrel gets bore reamed then the bore gets honed or what I still call prelapped. We use to prelap all the barrels by hand. What we found with the Sunnen Hone machine is by replacing the human doing it by hand the consistency of the bore size is better. Not that doing it by hand was worse....your taking the human element out of the equation. Time wise it’s a little faster as well.

Then the barrel gets rifled and then it gets finished lapped. The final finish lap is still done by hand.

Cast vs forged....not a short question and I’ll save it for a book at a later date....in the end lets call it forged. If the steel was cast like a conventional type casting process that your probably thinking of.....it wouldn’t take the pressure.

As I understand it Krieger no longer offers the GT barrels. Wasn’t easy for them to do. They had to modify the machines and just wasn’t working great. The only reason they did it was because we we’re offering/are offering it.

Rock from what I understand was supposedly. It was mentioned that Mike was mad for stealing his idea. Whatever. If he believed it in that much then he should’ve told the world he was doing it and why.

Gain twist type rifling has been around since at least the 1800’s. Nothing new per say. In fact our 20mm cannon barrels and I want to say the 30mm on our aircraft are GT barrels as well.

Later, Frank
 
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Frank Green

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It just seemed to me that if you can precision machine a chamber several inches deep then a crown wouldn't be much of an issue.
The chamber is done with a form tool per say. If your doing it CNC wise you have a program to machine/cut the chamber. Both have there good and bad. Your back to tooling and set up and time for the muzzle end and what is practical.
 

Forgetful Coyote

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We actually tested the prototype Sunnen Hone machine. After the barrel gets bore reamed then the bore gets honed or what I still call prelapped. We use to prelap all the barrels by hand. What we found with the Sunnen Hone machine is by replacing the human doing it by hand the consistency of the bore size is better. Not that doing it by hand was worse....your taking the human element out of the equation. Time wise it’s a little faster as well.

Then the barrel gets rifled and then it gets finished lapped. The final finish lap is still done by hand.

Cast vs forged....not a short question and I’ll save it for a book at a later date....in the end lets call it forged. If the steel was cast like a conventional type casting process that your probably thinking of.....it wouldn’t take the pressure.

As I understand it Krieger no longer offers the GT barrels. Wasn’t easy for them to do. They had to modify the machines and just wasn’t working great. The only reason they did it was because we we’re offering/are offering it.

Rock from what I understand was supposedly. It was mentioned that Mike was mad for stealing his idea. Whatever. If he believed it in that much then he should’ve told the world he was doing it and why.

Gain twist type rifling has been around since at least the 1800’s. Nothing new per say. In fact our 20mm cannon barrels and I want to say the 30mm on our aircraft are GT barrels as well.

Later, Frank
Thanks again sir.

Do you know whatever happened to Border barrels in Britain? Did anyone ever take over after they shut down? Surely someone grabbed up and is using the machines they had?
And how about Obermeyer? Is his business just gonna go away? Cause he dont seem to be in good health..
On the Bergara vid above, I thought the "2 microns" was referring to the surface roughness/smoothness/whatever the term is... not to I.D. consistency or anything like that..??
 

Frank Green

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Thanks again sir.

Do you know whatever happened to Border barrels in Britain? Did anyone ever take over after they shut down? Surely someone grabbed up and is using the machines they had?
And how about Obermeyer? Is his business just gonna go away? Cause he dont seem to be in good health..
On the Bergara vid above, I thought the "2 microns" was referring to the surface roughness/smoothness/whatever the term is... not to I.D. consistency or anything like that..??
Kolbe sold Border. I want to say to some investor type guy from France. I could be wrong. It was told to me once but it was a while ago. As far as I know a couple of guys that worked at Border started Sassen barrels with/for the guy that bought them out. They’re only making button barrels. What happened to the Pratt rifling machines I don’t know.

Boots (Obermeyer) had a bad stroke about a year and a half to 2 years ago. His mind as far as I know and the last I heard and his heart are when he gets better he’s going back to work. From what I hear and I wish Boot’s the best but I don’t see it happening. All of his stuff is locked up. Time will tell what will happen.

I took it as the 2 micron is what they are finishing the bore too. Unless I misunderstood the video. Back the video up to about the 5 min mark and watch it. Either way a 2 micron finish on the od doesn’t mean a thing.
 

pmclaine

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Ive heard Pac Nor customers lament the fire loss of that business.

Any historical machines lost there?
 

pmclaine

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I wish Chris and family at Pac Nor the best. Cannot even imagine what that would be like to go thru.

What all and types of machines they had I don’t have a clue.

Word is they are going to rebuild.

Guessing you all despite being competitors are a pretty close community.....no one wants to see someones life/livelihood messed with that way.
 
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Frank Green

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Thanks for the awesome info @Frank Green! I thoroughly enjoy following and reading your posts here and on AS. Frank and company at Bartlein are great folks to deal with. Wealth of knowledge.

Now where do I preorder that book you keep talking about??? I just happen to have a spot here on the shelf next to my Bible for it!
Your welcome on the info.!

A book!? If I ever do write one it's gonna be a good one!!!!!

Later, Frank
 

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@pmclaine @kraigWY or @sandwarrior or anyone else, do yall know if the recoil lug and front action screw are all the same size and at same location (roughly) on the M1903 and M1917/P14 Enfield, as they are on the Large Ring Mauser 98's military and commercial.??? Or are the recoil lug/front action screw in different sizes/places, eg: Pre-64 M70's.. ??

Reason for asking: apparently the M70 larger recoil lug size & different location & front action screw, are a big reason for the M70's replacing the custom 1903 match rifles & being more popular than Mauser actions for High Power/Long Range Prone/Palma due to better accuracy from allowing a better more complete bedding and fit??

Before the M70 came along and really took off, the standard 1903 Service Rifles & 1903 custom match rifles seemed to rule Camp Perry vs the M1917's/whatever else was competing.... and apparently still show this in the CMP games to this day, ie the 1903 being separated into a different, more strict scoring class than the 1917 and every other vintage service rifle(*perhaps this is due to the advantage of the 1903 sights?)..

Tho I imagine the Swedes, K31/K11/etc Swisses, nice condition Finn M39's, M28/30's,etc & possibly a real nice condition pre-war K98k or G98 Mauser with good ammo could give the 03's/03A3's a run for its money..

ETA: I kinda suspect it ain't got anything to do with the sights re: 1917 vs 03 tho.. because even in the custom Match Rifle classes where custom sights (eg: Lyman 48) were allowed/used, a custom sporterized 1903 match rifle was in quite common use whereas the 1917 was not, at least from pics I've gleaned and what I've read..

Also, even in service rifle configuration, the 1917's sights don't seem to be bad at all, tho admittedly I aint never shot a 1917.

I'm pretty sure the 1917 has a heavier barrel.. any clue on which has the stiffer action? Pretty sure the 1917 is longer, anyone got action comparison pics side-by-side or action dimensions??
 
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pmclaine

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Pretty sure none of the 1917, Mauser, Moisin, Swede class rifles allow for windage on the issue sights.

The Win M70 is an 03 with all the extraneous govt BS removed for commercial sales. The govt spending our money can afford the extra design a commercial company trying to make a profit wont include......think crap like mag cutoffs.

You have a bunch of questions in your post....Ill only comment on those parts I think I know the answer to.
 
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Frank Green

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The 1917 barrel contour is only a smidgin heavier per say. Also the factory 1917 barrels are 26" finish length vs. the 24" of the '03.

All of the 1917 barrels where single point cut rifled as well! All conventional 5 groove and left hand twist to boot! Nice little fun fact there.

I have two of the K31's and again if the rifle is in nice condition they shoot really well. Bores are tight. If memory serves me right .296" on the bore and .306 on the groove. 4 groove barrels and if memory serves me right 50/50 land to groove ratio. I could be wrong but pretty sure.

The K98's and the M39 can be good shooting guns in nice condition but equal being equal I'd take the '03 over each one of those.

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels
 

Forgetful Coyote

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Pretty sure none of the 1917, Mauser, Moisin, Swede class rifles allow for windage on the issue sights.

The Win M70 is an 03 with all the extraneous govt BS removed for commercial sales. The govt spending our money can afford the extra design a commercial company trying to make a profit wont include......think crap like mag cutoffs.

You have a bunch of questions in your post....Ill only comment on those parts I think I know the answer to.
Does the 03 front action screw into the recoil lug? And do you know if the 1917's does as well?
 

Frank Green

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Yes the 03 screw goes into the recoil lug. 1917 Enfield/Remington 30 Express rifles (which is the sporter version of the 1917) are the same way.

I’m restoring a Rem.30 Express right now. Getting it ready to be sent out for old world rust blued type finish on it.
 

sandwarrior

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Yes the 03 screw goes into the recoil lug. 1917 Enfield/Remington 30 Express rifles (which is the sporter version of the 1917) are the same way.

I’m restoring a Rem.30 Express right now. Getting it ready to be sent out for old world rust blued type finish on it.
Also note: Win 54’s and subsequent model 70’s were based off the 1917, not the 1903. I found this out searching for an answer to @Forgetful Coyote ’s question about the Winchester 51’s.
 

pmclaine

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The 1917 barrel contour is only a smidgin heavier per say. Also the factory 1917 barrels are 26" finish length vs. the 24" of the '03.

All of the 1917 barrels where single point cut rifled as well! All conventional 5 groove and left hand twist to boot! Nice little fun fact there.

I have two of the K31's and again if the rifle is in nice condition they shoot really well. Bores are tight. If memory serves me right .296" on the bore and .306 on the groove. 4 groove barrels and if memory serves me right 50/50 land to groove ratio. I could be wrong but pretty sure.

The K98's and the M39 can be good shooting guns in nice condition but equal being equal I'd take the '03 over each one of those.

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels

CMP people often comment in a pleasantly surprised manner on the accuracy of their new bought 17s.

Left hand twist - did not realize that - kind of like that pending barrel order in your shop from that guy with the name kind of similar to mine - whoever he is.....

Is it true in order to do a left hand twist you mount standard rifling lathes on the ceiling upside down?
 
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sandwarrior

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CMP people often comment in a pleasantly surprised manner on the accuracy of their new bought 17s.

Left hand twist - did not realize that - kind of like that pending barrel order in your shop from that guy with the name kind of similar to mine - whoever he is.....

Is it true in order to do a left hand twist you mount standard rifling lathes on the ceiling upside down?
I think you probably would😉 ...😁
 

Frank Green

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CMP people often comment in a pleasantly surprised manner on the accuracy of their new bought 17s.

Left hand twist - did not realize that - kind of like that pending barrel order in your shop from that guy with the name kind of similar to mine - whoever he is.....

Is it true in order to do a left hand twist you mount standard rifling lathes on the ceiling upside down?
Na....on the upside down thing! Just need a different tool!

Same with 303 Brit. LH and 5 groove. With the 1914 Enfields originally for a Brit order and the US needling all the rifles they needed for WW1 that’s how the 17 was born. Kept 30-06 and for whatever reason kept the left hand rifling.

PM your complete name and I’ll look up the order just too make sure I’ve got it right and I’ll take a peek to see where it’s at for ya!

Later, Frank