First Run and Gun, First Run and Gun Build

Burdy

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We will see how this goes, only going out for 5k this first try, which will be enough for this over 40 y/o. One stage requirement is alternating between a full IPSC at 600y and a 1/3 IPSC at 100y, so I am thinking the LPVO would be the smartest move as its 30 second penalty per miss. I am ALL for any advice on how to run this thing, equipment changes, equipment needed etc. All ears on this end.

"Joseph"
Barrett SBR Lower
Noveske Upper
Mega/Zev Rail
Ballistic Advantage Hanson Profile 13.7"


IMG_20190524_104717.jpg
 
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Niles Coyote

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Welp, I have not shot a match like that but it sounds fun.

I have shot a DMR match and there was about a 700 yard jog for one stage with, all your equipment. Obviously you want as few pounds as possible in your load out. When it comes to the rifle those that did the best used a load with 77 grain bullets and were also using LPVO. I used a 1-8x trijicon and felt that was about perfect. Only the guys with Red Dots or those running optics that had no hold overs (knowledge on how to use them) struggled.
 

Burdy

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Welp, I have not shot a match like that but it sounds fun.

I have shot a DMR match and there was about a 700 yard jog for one stage with, all your equipment. Obviously you want as few pounds as possible in your load out. When it comes to the rifle those that did the best used a load with 77 grain bullets and were also using LPVO. I used a 1-8x trijicon and felt that was about perfect. Only the guys with Red Dots or those running optics that had no hold overs (knowledge on how to use them) struggled.
It's going to be a learning experience for sure. Its 6 stages across the 5 kilometers, Carbine and Pistol and you must carry everything you need the entire time, you can only leave behind brass. I thought I could get a full kit down around 15 lbs, but it looks like it will be about 20 lbs. The ammo alone will be a touch over 7 lbs, this rifle is 7 lbs 12 ounces as you see it and then of course I have the pistol/magazines and carrier. I have good cardio, but I am a smaller guy, so 20 lbs represent a signifcant portion of my weight. I have no expectations other than to not be LAST, so I am aiming real high here. Fun is priority #1 along with at least being properly prepared. If I am just not as good skillwise, I am ok with that.
 

RedDirtRifleman

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That’s a very appropriate set up for a Run and Gun. I did my last one with a 12.5” gun with a P4xi, so your equipment will handle 600 easy.

What do you have attached to the handguard with the elastic?
 

CavScout85

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Think I am doing this same match, and I am using a LPVO as well. Probably be carrying my LMT MWS, which tips the scales at a portly 13.5 with optic!

Oh, and practicing my hatchet throwing as well. :)
 

Burdy

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That’s a very appropriate set up for a Run and Gun. I did my last one with a 12.5” gun with a P4xi, so your equipment will handle 600 easy.

What do you have attached to the handguard with the elastic?
Thats the legs for the heathen bipod, they insert into the barricade stop. Whole system is 3.5 ounces, legs, barricade stop, everything.
 

Burdy

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Think I am doing this same match, and I am using a LPVO as well. Probably be carrying my LMT MWS, which tips the scales at a portly 13.5 with optic!

Oh, and practicing my hatchet throwing as well. :)
Geeeeesh, lol. Here I was trying to figure out if I could run 70 grain lehigh 300 black from a folded rattler in a backpack and still make 600 yard hits...hahaha!
 

CavScout85

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Geeeeesh, lol. Here I was trying to figure out if I could run 70 grain lehigh 300 black from a folded rattler in a backpack and still make 600 yard hits...hahaha!

Ha, well the LMT is the plan for now as I sit in my air conditioned office 3 months away... I can loose a couple of pounds by going to my Wilson Combat, but not sure I want to drag it through the mud! But either way I will be toting a fairly heavy weapons system in .308.
 

Wormydog1724

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That looks like a solid setup to me. 600y isn't thaaat far for a carbine especially on a fullsize ipsc, should be plenty doable with good ammo and a stable shooting position. Knowing your dope will be a big help. I know you know this. And that's a great weight for the carbine. I coyote hunt with a 16" 6.8PSC with a 3-9x Accupoint and a Form1 titanium suppressor that is 7lbs 11oz, much better than the 12lbs I was hauling around with a heavier barrel, heavier suppressor (SDN6), and heavier optic.

I'm not sure what the course of fires will look like but I find a biathlon type sling is much easier to haul a rifle with, distributes the weight more evenly on my shoulders. I've never done a run n' gun type match but during our coyote contests we can walk up to 15 miles in day and every once counts by the time it's over. Start out the day with a pack, chair, electronic call, shooting sticks, etc etc. Sometimes by the end of the day I'm using a mouth call and sitting on my ass with just my shooting sticks lol.

If you're really serious, maybe could get a Titanium Forward Assist and Titanium muzzle brake, and swap the handguard to a BCM KMR (old magnesium one if you can find it) with titanium barrel nut, and hell maybe even a titanium BCG and low mass operating system. There's definitely a point of diminishing returns when chasing lightweight build though (cost vs weight).
 

Burdy

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@CavScout85 I feel like with the 30 seconds per miss rule, accuracy will be king. I have started running again a bit more and bought a 12 lb vest for through mid june and a 20 lb vest from mid june until the event. Seriously was considering running my P365 as a pistol as I can make IPSC hits out to 30y no issue, but then I noticed there is a reduced IPSC @ 50y for the pistol at stage 5, which might be a bit tough after trecking through late summer Georgia heat loaded down, sweaty and shaky. May just use the P10C for a little extra sight radius.
You are a beast running a .308, you have my respect sir.
 
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Burdy

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That looks like a solid setup to me. 600y isn't thaaat far for a carbine especially on a fullsize ipsc, should be plenty doable with good ammo and a stable shooting position. Knowing your dope will be a big help. I know you know this. And that's a great weight for the carbine. I coyote hunt with a 16" 6.8PSC with a 3-9x Accupoint and a Form1 titanium suppressor that is 7lbs 11oz, much better than the 12lbs I was hauling around with a heavier barrel, heavier suppressor (SDN6), and heavier optic.

I'm not sure what the course of fires will look like but I find a biathlon type sling is much easier to haul a rifle with, distributes the weight more evenly on my shoulders. I've never done a run n' gun type match but during our coyote contests we can walk up to 15 miles in day and every once counts by the time it's over. Start out the day with a pack, chair, electronic call, shooting sticks, etc etc. Sometimes by the end of the day I'm using a mouth call and sitting on my ass with just my shooting sticks lol.

If you're really serious, maybe could get a Titanium Forward Assist and Titanium muzzle brake, and swap the handguard to a BCM KMR (old magnesium one if you can find it) with titanium barrel nut, and hell maybe even a titanium BCG and low mass operating system. There's definitely a point of diminishing returns when chasing lightweight build though (cost vs weight).
Good point on the sling, I do like the quick adjustability the ferro concepts gives but I have no issue considering a more comfortable alternative and/or one that can really be cinched down tight for the run. Your coyote rig sounds a lot like my .300 blk hunting rig, its 7 lbs 15 ounces, optic, suppressor, bipod and all...but at 10.25".

If I knew I was going to be doing enough of these, I would build a dedicated lightweight rifle for it. The issue is that there is not too many of them that come up that don't require significant travel. I do enough of that as it is, so in my free time I like to be tethered about an hour from the house at most.
 
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CavScout85

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I haven't got a round count yet, what did you come up with?
 

Burdy

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I haven't got a round count yet, what did you come up with?
Minimum pistol was 42 or 44, minimum rifle was whatever the other one wasn't. So roughly 45 rounds rounds each minimum. I was figuring on carrying 1.5 times that, maybe 1.25 would be better.

Edit: and that's just for the 5K. you will need to double that if you are running the 10K. I was going to run the 10K until I found out it was just the 5k two times. If I'm going to be punished I want new scenery.
 
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mgrs

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Looks like a great build for the purpose. I’d stick with the K16. It’s not a heavy scope to begin with.

Props to you for getting out and doing something. A competitive shooting event with a 5k run is more than 99% of the gun owning community will ever do.

Couple thoughts

-Having a good balance point for one handed carry when running with a rifle is really nice.

-Your footwear is probably going to make as much difference as the rifle. Unless the terrain is bad, just wear road running shoes. Boots will add probably a couple minutes spread over 5k.
 
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Burdy

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Looks like a great build for the purpose. I’d stick with the K16. It’s not a heavy scope to begin with.

Props to you for getting out and doing something. A competitive shooting event with a 5k run is more than 99% of the gun owning community will ever do.

Couple thoughts

-Having a good balance point for one handed carry when running with a rifle is really nice.

-Your footwear is probably going to make as much difference as the rifle. Unless the terrain is bad, just wear road running shoes. Boots will add probably a couple minutes spread over 5k.
Yes, the K16i may get replaced by an unreleased 1-8 before the event, but that remains to be seen. I wanted something with capped turrets considering there will be crawling/etc, both fit that bill.

Great point on the balance point. It looks like with the stock fully collapsed it is just right down the center of the magwell, not ideal but not terrible. With the stock extended it gets back heavy.

On the footwear, I will absolutely wear the best running shoes for the job, I don't care how douchey it will look.
 
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NGCSUGrad09

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30 seconds per miss is usually if you don't hit it and move on. Most RnGs are keep banging until you get it, give up or run out of ammo.

A LPVO is king for these games, just have decent dope and you'll be ok.
The downside to smaller guns is smaller mags.. making up weight due to extra mags. Stuffing rounds on the fly isn't fun. I run a G17 with Magpul 21rd mags.

Generally plan on twice the ammo round count.
 

CavScout85

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I would definitely stick with at least your 1.5x on the low end. Many carry 2x, the weight penalty for 5.56 isn't that much.

Douchey running shoes?? Here are mine. :)

7083428
 

B4forever

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Great looking setup! I’m building a similar carbine to be carried in the Sniper Adventure Challenge next year. The only change I’d make is maybe a bit more barrel length. I’d run a nice 16-18” barrel since 5k isn’t really that far and the price for a miss is quite high.
 
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Burdy

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30 seconds per miss is usually if you don't hit it and move on. Most RnGs are keep banging until you get it, give up or run out of ammo.

A LPVO is king for these games, just have decent dope and you'll be ok.
The downside to smaller guns is smaller mags.. making up weight due to extra mags. Stuffing rounds on the fly isn't fun. I run a G17 with Magpul 21rd mags.

Generally plan on twice the ammo round count.
Twice the ammo count? Ugh, I was hoping to come in at 20 lbs or under. It appears that will be harder and harder to do. I will have plenty of time to get the dope dialed in for sure, will especially confirm the 600, I can work around whatever funky zero that turns out to be at the shorter distances. Great point on the pistol mag capacity. The less crap to carry, the better. Any idea if these events usually have water at the stages or is that on you as well?

I would definitely stick with at least your 1.5x on the low end. Many carry 2x, the weight penalty for 5.56 isn't that much.

Douchey running shoes?? Here are mine. :)

View attachment 7083428
I really like those. Unfortunately for me, despite being lightweight, I am an overpronator so usually all of the available motion control shoes are in fact, very douchey.
 

Two Mikes

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I ran Riverbend last year and it was a life improving experience. I've done two. The second one was the 911 Legion Memorial Swim and Gun (it rained on us all day). Run N Gunners hope for bad weather so they can overcome it. It's all about the struggle.

I have four tips which I'm hoping NGCSU will concur with ....... 1) bring a water proof stop watch. You'll finish last if your $6 Chinese watch stops working when it gets wet 2) Bring about 500ml of water with you. You don't need a camelback with 2 liters but you will want something along the way. 3) Use trail running shoes. I ran in boots last year and felt like I was dragging a sled behind me. 4) Work on your weighted endurance (run as much as possible too)

The LPVO is definitely the way to go because you'll have very close and far targets. I run a Nightforce NX8 1-8 and have complete confidence in it. It survived an insane amount of abuse at the 911 RnG, including being submerged in a pond. It still has some algae stuck to it.

This event will improve every aspect of your life. You'll want to be fit for the next one. When the conditions at the next match aren't perfect, you'll excel because you've been through worse while your competitors are whining about the drizzle.

I'm running the 5K and ROing this year so I hope to see you out there.

Just remember when it gets borderline impossible and really bizzare, YOU GOT THIS!
 

Burdy

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I ran Riverbend last year and it was a life improving experience. I've done two. The second one was the 911 Legion Memorial Swim and Gun (it rained on us all day). Run N Gunners hope for bad weather so they can overcome it. It's all about the struggle.

I have four tips which I'm hoping NGCSU will concur with ....... 1) bring a water proof stop watch. You'll finish last if your $6 Chinese watch stops working when it gets wet 2) Bring about 500ml of water with you. You don't need a camelback with 2 liters but you will want something along the way. 3) Use trail running shoes. I ran in boots last year and felt like I was dragging a sled behind me. 4) Work on your weighted endurance (run as much as possible too)

The LPVO is definitely the way to go because you'll have very close and far targets. I run a Nightforce NX8 1-8 and have complete confidence in it. It survived an insane amount of abuse at the 911 RnG, including being submerged in a pond. It still has some algae stuck to it.

This event will improve every aspect of your life. You'll want to be fit for the next one. When the conditions at the next match aren't perfect, you'll excel because you've been through worse while your competitors are whining about the drizzle.

I'm running the 5K and ROing this year so I hope to see you out there.

Just remember when it gets borderline impossible and really bizzare, YOU GOT THIS!
Watch, check.
Water, check.
Trail Running shoes, will definitely acquire.
Weighted runs, just started.

I had planned on two R&G's in the Carolinas that got cancelled/moved, and I am kind of glad as I don't think I would have been ready for those dates, but 3 months will certainly help out here. I have been doing crossfit for 2.5 years now, so some aspects of my conditioning are good. It is interesting though, as someone who used to do a lot of 10k's and a half marathon or two, I find running much more difficult now that I have put on some muscle in the legs. Completely changed my gait and makes for more labored distance runs. I am hoping to work some of that back out over the next 90 days.

Thanks for the info and advice, you've got me a bit pumped up now.
 

NGCSUGrad09

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I use a simple Timex that works great.

Definitely bring water. Everything for the course must be carried by you.

I use SpeedCross 4s, much lighter and offer good traction.

Here's my loadout from last year:
 

W54/XM-388

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You could also build a full up AR15 with a standard 16.5" barrel for about 5 pounds and then put the optic of your choice on it.
 
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NHR

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I've done quite a few RNGs now:
4x Oklahoma 15 milers
2x Oklahoma "10"ks
3x Rockcastle 10ks
1x RBGC 5k
1x Carolina 8k

I'll echo the other recommendations here: trail shoes, 0.5l max of water, 2x ammo. My typical run weight is 18-22 lbs depending on round count.

I don't recommend chest rigs as they trap a ton of heat. Trim belt rigs or a small bag like NSGCUGrad uses are good. I've used the BFG 10-speed bandolier in some of the higher round count runs and it's a good compromise.

10k is a short distance and short amount of time. It's not like you're hiking the AT so carry the bare minimum and put up with some discomfort.

I use an NXS 2.5-10 with a Burris FF3 on top. It's overkill for most RNG stages but usually gives me a leg up on the 500/600 yard stages. I've got a friend who does great with the Holosun ACSS red dot and a 3x mag. I've also run with irons before so really anything that holds zero is fine.

I'll also recommend a Safariland ALS holster. It's a solid retention holster that you can still get fast draws from.

I'm ROing RBGC and running the 10k so I'll see you there!
 

Bakwa

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Good to see some other dudes from here doing the RBGC as well. I'll be doing the 5k. This will be my first time doing anything at this facility, so I'm looking forward to the mayhem. Rock on!
 

Burdy

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Great advice here, I am taking it all in. I had planned on wearing a thin/slim ferro concepts slickster chest rig, but thats a great point about it not breathing. I will have to experiment with the belt rig and/or bag.

Thanks for the loadout link @NGCSUGrad09

@NHR As for the 2.5-10, interesting you should mention that. I had given serious thought to running the Meostar R2 1.7-10 as I thought it would give me a leg up on the longer shots and I could just deal with only going down to 1.7x up close and be a tad slower. I took some shots of both optics (against the Kahles) at 1.7x vs 1x, 6x vs 6x and then 10x of the Meostar R2. I would only be giving up 3 ounces to go this way. It is still in the back of my mind, maybe with some 45 degree irons but I sure would give up a lot of FOV at 1x....

My comp experience is pretty much only in pistol so I am working on my close range carbine work and my pistol to rifle transitions will basically be from square one. I have only once entered a carbine match and was given a pass to use my MPX on that day....I was invited back, but my MPX wasnt. I shoot enough rifle at distance I am not overly concerned about any supported longer shots.

I bought a 4" circle swinger yesterday and have begun shooting from various positions in and around trees etc at distances of around 100 yards while standing and only semi-supported. It is certainly a smaller target than it seems at 6x when not prone and stable, so I think it will be good practice. My thinking was that a roughly 4" x 3" rectangle would be the effective size of the 600 yard IPSC reduced down 100y and I couldn't find smaller than 4".

In addition I am working on completely unsupported standing work on 1/3 IPSC at around 75 yards or so just using the sling and running the pistol out at 50y on the same.

Below are the comparison pics. The 1/3rd IPSC steel is approximately 75 yards out. The scopes are crooked because I just set them in the bottom half of the rings.


Meostar R2 10x
IMG_20190522_182851.jpg

Meostar R2 6x
IMG_20190522_182803.jpg

Kahles 6x
IMG_20190522_182459.jpg

Meostar R2 1.7x
IMG_20190522_182627.jpg

Khales 1x
IMG_20190522_182319.jpg
 
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mgrs

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A full size ipsc at 600y would be easy work for your K16....just stick with that.

More important will be confirming your data at range with ammo and optic you will use. Shooters always seem to skip that step.
 
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NHR

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I agree with mgrs , your setup is fine. Confirm your dope with game day ammo. It's shocking how many guys I talk to at RNG events complaining that their BDC was off despite being zeroed at 100 yards.

Wind at RBGC can be a problem. They have flags which helps, but it's hilly and you will be shooting from high up. Last time I was there the flags were going in all different directions so I was looking for splash instead of making an educated guess.

Vastly more important is getting your PT in. Take advantage of the heat wave we're seeing and get some hot runs in. Do it in the sun, mid day, on concrete or asphalt with no shade. On race day you have no idea when you'll run and you could be the lucky one who draws a noon or 1pm run time. Assume that race day will be hotter than any training day you've had.

The heat is no joke and will seriously f--- you up. Know your limits and know when to slow down. I did a long summer race when it was over 110 degrees one time. I thought I could muscle through it. Wrong. I finished but basically crawled across the finish line. I wasn't sweating, couldn't think straight, and could barely stand. They threw me in an ice bath and I refused to let them call an ambulance for me. Hours later I lost consciousness and vomited all over the place. It took weeks for me to recover and I'm lucky I didn't do permanent damage.

Moral of the story: know your fitness, know your dope. Race day performance is a reflection of your preparation and no amount of heroics will overcome that.


ETA: I didn't really address your question. In my experience most rifle stages are at ≥50 yards because they are trying to use steel targets to reduce stage reset time. At that range 2.5x isn't very limiting. Anything under that range I just use the piggyback red dot. I prefer the piggyback to offsets because it works strong or weak side and from goofy barricades.

I use the same rifle for RNG events, DMR/LR matches, and hunting. Everything is a compromise but I'm happy with it. If I was building an "ideal" RNG rig it would be a lightweight 14.5 pinned gun with an NX8 or ATACR on top. One day I might do that and build a separate DMR gun with a decent match barrel, but I'm kinda cheap thats a lot of 5.56 and match entry fees.
 
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Burdy

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I agree with mgrs , your setup is fine. Confirm your dope with game day ammo. It's shocking how many guys I talk to at RNG events complaining that their BDC was off despite being zeroed at 100 yards.

Wind at RBGC can be a problem. They have flags which helps, but it's hilly and you will be shooting from high up. Last time I was there the flags were going in all different directions so I was looking for splash instead of making an educated guess.

Vastly more important is getting your PT in. Take advantage of the heat wave we're seeing and get some hot runs in. Do it in the sun, mid day, on concrete or asphalt with no shade. On race day you have no idea when you'll run and you could be the lucky one who draws a noon or 1pm run time. Assume that race day will be hotter than any training day you've had.

The heat is no joke and will seriously f--- you up. Know your limits and know when to slow down. I did a long summer race when it was over 110 degrees one time. I thought I could muscle through it. Wrong. I finished but basically crawled across the finish line. I wasn't sweating, couldn't think straight, and could barely stand. They threw me in an ice bath and I refused to let them call an ambulance for me. Hours later I lost consciousness and vomited all over the place. It took weeks for me to recover and I'm lucky I didn't do permanent damage.

Moral of the story: know your fitness, know your dope. Race day performance is a reflection of your preparation and no amount of heroics will overcome that.
Geeesh. Glad you didn't have any further issues after the event. I'll be putting in hot loaded down runs up until race day for sure. I do NOT like to have a cardio issue in anything that I do. The extras weight is a concern so I'm preparing for that.

As for the dope, I'll be getting Chrono data probably next week on a couple different loads and then heading out with Strelok at some point to confirm all my holds.
 

NHR

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I've been using IMI 77gr for any 300+ stages. It seems to have dried up so I'll be using Magtech 77 going forward.

For under 300 I just use Wolf Gold 55.
 
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Burdy

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Since there is almost no 13.7" chrono data hardly anywhere on the web, figured I would post up my results from running the chrono today, which were interesting:

Temp 83, Humidity 47, Pressure 30

Hornady 73g ELDM

2520
2539
2534
2569
2554
Avg 2543

Winchester 69g Match

2406
2339
2406
2364
2368
Avg 2376

Federal 77g Gold Medal Match

2406
2380
2402
2376
2406
Avg 2394

The 73 ELDMs shot best in my rifle and also the POI was spot on at 50 with my 55g ammo, so thats what I will be using for the match...at least the long stage of the match. Definitely interesting they are carrying so much more velocity than both the 69's and 77's...
 
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Burdy

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Factory ammo? If so which part number?

My 16" is pretty much running that speed with the .223 Match load.
Yep factory Hornady .223 73g ELD-M, part #80269.

Shot really well too. This 5 shots at just at 50 yards since I was using the 1-6x Kahles but considering my center dot would be 0.5" at this distance and parallax is fixed at 100y, I will take it. Probably as good as my aging eyes could do anyway without more magnification and lack of true cheekweld. Larue 0.5" grid target...3 of those shots are in the same hole.

The BDC on the 3GR worked out great for 600 as well which is a big bonus. (Set temp at 90 degrees, 10mph wind)

Maybe you will find this to be a new pet load, and then I will have actually contributed something to this thread instead of just taking....

IMG_20190602_120539.jpg
Screenshot_20190603-080458.png
 
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TigernLionGSP

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The one in GA on the 31 aug Riverbend 5k/10k ?

if so I will see you there. I am RO on that saturday the Ro are running it on Friday. I am praying for rain Ga is too dam hot in Aug lol

good luck
 

Burdy

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The one in GA on the 31 aug Riverbend 5k/10k ?

if so I will see you there. I am RO on that saturday the Ro are running it on Friday. I am praying for rain Ga is too dam hot in Aug lol

good luck
Yes, thats the one. Yeah, some cool weather would be a blessing...or a little rain.
 

NHR

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For reference, the IMI chronos 2790 out of my 16" barrel. Magtech is a bit slower at 2720. Both average around 1.5 MOA 10 round groups from my standard chrome-lined barrel.

All in all its more than adequate for 600yd silhouettes
 
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Burdy

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@ClangClang saw your RNG post over on the Razor/ATACR thread, any experience you could add to this thread as well would be appreciated.
 

Burdy

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a Biathlon Sling is the way to go to carry the rifle during stage run's
I just watched a video on that. Looks like a great option for running with a weapon for sure. For some reason, knowing myself, I feel like once I go to actually use the rifle I will look like a cat with a ball of yarn.
 

TigernLionGSP

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I just watched a video on that. Looks like a great option for running with a weapon for sure. For some reason, knowing myself, I feel like once I go to actually use the rifle I will look like a cat with a ball of yarn.
I used mine at RnG love it I will have with me if you an find me I will more happy to let you use it
 
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TonyTheTiger

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We will see how this goes, only going out for 5k this first try, which will be enough for this over 40 y/o. One stage requirement is alternating between a full IPSC at 600y and a 1/3 IPSC at 100y, so I am thinking the LPVO would be the smartest move as its 30 second penalty per miss. I am ALL for any advice on how to run this thing, equipment changes, equipment needed etc. All ears on this end.

"Joseph"
Barrett SBR Lower
Noveske Upper
Mega/Zev Rail
Ballistic Advantage Hanson Profile 13.7"


View attachment 7083166
What length is the handguard?
 

TonyTheTiger

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Good to know, I've got a 13.7" barrel and 13" HG inbound so I was curious how it would look.
 
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Hessian
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a Biathlon Sling is the way to go to carry the rifle during stage run's
Are you using the version with shooting loop or the simple version?

I'm torn and can't decide whether the extra $45 is worth it. I shoot with a sling all the time (smallbore, Appleseed,etc.). For RnG, I'm not sure I need the level of accuracy that a sling provides. What do you think?