Divisions - Breaking down the Obvious

RoterJager

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There are a lot of us in WI and WPRSC that shot the two day match but didn't register for the PRS. I could have registered for the PRS Regional membership but didn't see the point. I would have to think I'm not the only one.
 
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LawnMM

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I've seen multiple NRL matches employing the hanging targets on both sides of a T post this year.

They do it for a different reason, so if one breaks you have a backup. I think that's a good strategy.

Maybe incorporate Frank's idea the same way. Two T posts, two targets each. Two large, two small, ideally different shapes. Diamonds and circles for example.

If you're an AM shoot the big forgiving circle. If you're a PRO shoot the small diamond that requires more ability in both wind and elevation for a hit.
 

Birddog6424

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The PRS actually has some great stuff coming for 2020. I think it's an excellent solution to pro versus amateur versus new shooter.

I wont let the cat out of the bag. This is Shannon's story to tell. But I think it will be far more inclusive.

A skill based opportunity to shoot against your peers will allow shooters of all levels to have a prize to chase.
 

Birddog6424

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Can you tell us what the 2020 Official Rifle of the PRS is yet?

I heard next year it's going to be a Kel Tec!!

🤣
Negative on the Kel Tec. Though it was a front runner for a while.

The official rifle of the PRS starting in 2020 is MY rifle.

Unless you are shooting MY rifle, you are not allowed to win.
 
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motorcycleboy

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Pro and am. A and b. Skill classification is really the only way. The “production” idea is way to flawed. A barrel is a consumable to everybody in the sport. Having to use a factory barrel is MORE expensive when it’s shot out. Rules like this never work. I have a friend who is trying to decide whether or not to run production next year His rpr barrel is toast. In order to run production he will have to spend more for a factory barrel. His scope is too expensive, so he is buying one with a lower msrp to be class legal. Not money saving. Who cares about classifications. Just shoot. Your score is what it is. If you want to compare yourself with others with similar equipment or skill, you are welcome to do it
 
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C.R. Adams

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From the perspective of a new participant in PRS, but not a person who is new to shooting sports. Divisions, classes, etc. unnecessarily complicate any sport. One reason for my interest in PRS is the relatively few regulations. We are all aware that no matter how many restrictions are place on a class, there will always be some degree of an equipment race or gaming involved. Selecting some arbitrary number of match participations to recognize a person as a pro or amateur provides no value. If a shooter is in a match rich environment, that shooter can complete four matches in one or two months. To suggest those four matches in that time frame have significantly increased a shooter's skill level relative to a shooter who participates in four matches and practices over four months, doesn't seem reasonable. If a person is in a sport to win, then damn well learn to win. Let's not play coy, the intent of creating classifications has no other purpose than to create an opportunity to be dominant within that classification.
 

spife7980

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honestly though i think what's keeping the crowds out of PRS is match fee $$$. even after dropping more (ok, way more) than a few thou on my stuff, i still cringe at paying $100 - $300 to shoot a match.
Me too, Ill do the one day match tx precision matches hosts twice a year for 125 plus a shared hotel room but that still isnt an easy thing to do even with all the money I dump into the hobby. I wont do a two day for twice that amount, its just not worth it to me. But then again thats probably why my desires wont ever be catered to, because Im not their market.
 
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ThePretzel

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In my mind the weight should be limited even in open, it's limited in other shooting sports, you have weight limits even in F Class Open
Just because other sports do it does not mean it's a good idea.

We have speed limits, caliber limits, etc
These limits have a logical reason as to why they exist, because without them your targets end up beat to shit or full of holes. I'm not convinced yet that there's a logical reason to actually restrict rifle weight beyond, "I don't like heavy rifles so they should be banned."

It's a defined set of rules so everyone understands.
The rules are already well defined and everyone understands that there isn't a weight limit.

This is supposed to be a practical/tactical rifles series, not a give it all to me upfront like F Class or Benchrest
Calling this a practical or tactical rifle sport is ridiculous on its face, because there's nothing practical about shooting a 105-115gr bullet traveling only 2,800-2,900 fps at a target 1,400 yards away. In a practical (hunting) or tactical (military) scenario you'd be rightfully called an idiot for doing that instead of using a large magnum cartridge instead.

You'll see more innovation with the rules in place than without.
Correction: you'll see more loopholes exploited, and more rules created to close those loopholes. Innovation cannot exist when you limit how people can innovate with arbitrary restrictions.

Remember you want to grow and add to the sport, in these cases perceptions matter, having no limits ruins the perception for a lot of people who want things defined up front.
The same can be said about having arbitrary rules that serve no purpose other than, "Because we said so." I'd argue having a big list of rules people need to adhere to is more discouraging to a new shooter than anything else. There are a number of different shooting sports that seem like a lot of fun but I've never bothered with because the rulebook weighs about 20 pounds. USPSA and IDPA are the biggest ones, where there are limits on what guns belong in what division and seemingly a dozen different divisions, plus within the division you have to worry about the power factor of your ammunition. None of that is fun to anybody besides pedants who spend too much time worrying that someone else might have a slight advantage because their gun is different. It just discourages people because they don't necessarily know if their gun will fit into whatever arbitrary requirements are given.

Beyond that, to grow the sport you need to keep current competitors shooting matches into the future. If you ban the rifles used by 50% of people in PRS, how many of those people do you think are going to go buy equipment to keep competing vs how many will leave and shoot NRL instead?

They want shit handed to them and consider it fair to do so, rather than enter an event blind. Which to me is 10x more fun, especially having come off a CD match last month where the stages are totally blind. Doing it all on the clock, having to hold gear in hand, it's a lot more fun and the sense of accomplishment is bigger
Other people find it more fun to shoot a heavy rifle because they can hit more targets with it, and hitting targets is fun. You would find it decidedly not fun if a minimum weight restriction was implemented. The only people who think arbitrary restrictions are fun are the people who aren't affected by adding said restrictions.

What are you actually paying for? The MD does the match, the series takes your money and keeps your score on a website, but outside of that and raking in money with, Official X Sponsor of the X Series, they do nothing for you in return.
You're getting a pretty good discount towards purchases at a number of different companies (those "Official X Sponsor of the X Series" companies). Along with that you're getting a shirt and some other small items for free.

The other thing you're getting is the ability to compare yourself to other shooters across the country, using a tracked and ranked listing. You're getting the large checks from sponsors at the finale and for overall rankings. You're getting stuff on the prize tables from companies that send gear as part of their overall PRS sponsorship deal.

The funniest part of this argument is that the fee for the series is trivial in comparison to even just the fee for a single match. It's like asking why you would pay $50 annually to join the men's club at a golf course (where they organize tournaments and track scores, as well as give out prizes based on results) when you're spending thousands on the golf itself each year.

I can build a webpage on here for pennies and manage all your scores for free... it's simple, I can even give you a better profile, higher views and more exposure as an individual should you choose it, but instead, you want to pay people who do nothing for you.
Do it then. If it were that simple you'd have no reason not to because it would cost pennies and could potentially increase revenue related to the site if it attracted new users.

Just know that unless all the tracked scores are under the same set of rules it means absolutely nothing to track them in comparison to other shooters. Without basic consistency from match to match it really doesn't matter unless you're just looking to brag.

As far as higher views and more exposure go that's not going to happen for any old Joe Schmoe who finishes middle of the pack. Quite honestly nobody wants to see his profile, except maybe the people who shot with him in the past or will shoot with him in the future. Profiles don't particularly matter for that anyway, because what's important for people's personal brands in modern times is various forms of interactive social media. Regular contact with other people via repeated posts/updates that will be automatically seen by others, not static profile pages that don't allow for interaction with the people you're advertising to.
 

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Wheeled bench rest guns on the line, give me a mobile cart and an extension to touch an obstacle and watch.

Limits matter the fact you don’t see it is your problem - every SPORT has rules and limits and they are rarely arbitrary they are designed to create a level field so you can compare apples to apples and not a guy with more money ruling the day

Your pretzel logic is not how any sport operates

Pretty sure I have at least 10 years more experience doing this and hosting the longest continuous running match of this kind

What match out there has been going on longer than the SHC again ? What started all this SH at Rifles Only

No interest in hosting a series none at all is why I didn’t build the page, I actually wrote an alternate years ago that became part of the basis for the Missouri MoST series of events, sure things change and morph but that said if I had an interest it could be done easily and better. I can go online and scrub your scores for free, they are posted, you can monitor every match if needed

The leagues are barely shooting 1500 people a season, that is joke I have over 400,000 uniques here I think I goo with 6 million views a month, how many views do you get ?
 

Dthomas3523

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From the perspective of a new participant in PRS, but not a person who is new to shooting sports. Divisions, classes, etc. unnecessarily complicate any sport. One reason for my interest in PRS is the relatively few regulations. We are all aware that no matter how many restrictions are place on a class, there will always be some degree of an equipment race or gaming involved. Selecting some arbitrary number of match participations to recognize a person as a pro or amateur provides no value. If a shooter is in a match rich environment, that shooter can complete four matches in one or two months. To suggest those four matches in that time frame have significantly increased a shooter's skill level relative to a shooter who participates in four matches and practices over four months, doesn't seem reasonable. If a person is in a sport to win, then damn well learn to win. Let's not play coy, the intent of creating classifications has no other purpose than to create an opportunity to be dominant within that classification.
This is why most anyone using a classification system has automatic advancements once you score high enough in enough matches. Say for example you score 80% in 3 matches, regardless of over 3 months or 9 months, you are moved into the pro level.

And it’s damn near impossible for people to go around and find out how many points the likely winner is shooting and purposely missing to stay under the % that triggers them into the next category.

Also, most using a system require the top (however many) in each lower division to move up the next year. So, dominating is only going to happen for one year at the most.

Also, while too many rules can be a bad thing, not enough, or not updating the rules when a clarification or something is listed in a cof can also be bad. Look at the current nrl22 clusterfuck. Every week there is someone asking about something that was clarified on FB or in a cof from two years ago stating a position isn’t allowed in the organization. So, the lack of rules can also be a big problem once things start getting more popular nationwide.
 
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seansmd

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I am definitely new to the shooting competitions, but if the goal is to grow the sport or hobby you only need to at video games to see the model. Simplify for new users with lots of easily achievable rewards and up leveling. Progressive challenges and competition unlock progressive rewards as individuals move up and require more investment in time and resources to continue to progress.

This is not new, and not created by video games but they have mastered it. Phone, console, computer all the same model, hook them, grow them, monetize them.
 

motorcycleboy

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I am definitely new to the shooting competitions, but if the goal is to grow the sport or hobby you only need to at video games to see the model. Simplify for new users with lots of easily achievable rewards and up leveling. Progressive challenges and competition unlock progressive rewards as individuals move up and require more investment in time and resources to continue to progress.

This is not new, and not created by video games but they have mastered it. Phone, console, computer all the same model, hook them, grow them, monetize them.
But this is not a video game. Live rounds here. We all shoot the same targets. No way to make it easier for the inexperienced. Your scores improve (or not), that is your reward. When you finally start shooting in the 50’s, that’s your level up. Then 60’s, etc. The ones who need more should stay on the couch. We don’t need them.
 
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ColdSteel260

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Want to fix 30 LB rifles? More positional and 10 round, 10 position stages. If your rifle weight is making you time out because you can't move fast enough, the problem fixes itself.
 
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seansmd

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But this is not a video game. Live rounds here. We all shoot the same targets. No way to make it easier for the inexperienced. Your scores improve (or not), that is your reward. When you finally start shooting in the 50’s, that’s your level up. Then 60’s, etc. The ones who need more should stay on the couch. We don’t need them.
There are ways to make it easier, more time, more points for first round hits, different target sizes.
The we don't need them mindset is fine, it will continue to be a niche hobby.
 

ThePretzel

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Wheeled bench rest guns on the line, give me a mobile cart and an extension to touch an obstacle and watch.

Limits matter the fact you don’t see it is your problem - every SPORT has rules and limits and they are rarely arbitrary they are designed to create a level field so you can compare apples to apples and not a guy with more money ruling the day

Your pretzel logic is not how any sport operates

Pretty sure I have at least 10 years more experience doing this and hosting the longest continuous running match of this kind

What match out there has been going on longer than the SHC again ? What started all this SH at Rifles Only
So your reasoning for a weight limit boils down to, "Because I don't like heavy guns and I know better than you."

Claiming weight is an issue of money is patently false when the cost of lead is less than $2 per pound and you can melt it using nothing more than an ordinary blowtorch. Anybody with access to a hardware store can buy some 2x4's to make their own molds and you can affix things easily by drilling a hole through your part or leaving a slot based on the shape of your mold. It costs you $26 in lead, $15 in wood, and a couple hours of your time to add 10 pounds to any rifle.

No interest in hosting a series none at all is why I didn’t build the page, I actually wrote an alternate years ago that became part of the basis for the Missouri MoST series of events, sure things change and morph but that said if I had an interest it could be done easily and better. I can go online and scrub your scores for free, they are posted, you can monitor every match if needed
My point wasn't that it was impossible to make a better system with better visibility for the website. If anybody googles PRS right now all they get is a bunch of results for Paul Reed Smith guitars so obviously there's an issue.

My point was to say that you're claiming the series does nothing and I pointed out what services they provide. I also pointed out that if the services were profitable or easy to provide for free to everyone, you would have done it already.
 

generalzip

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And how many divisions did I propose vs how many were revealed recently ?

I think my rules are better and my divisions make sense , refined to say

Open - any rifle any caliber 24LBS limit

Limited - 18LBS limit - 26” barrel with factory Ammo only

Amateur
Pro

End of story
Just curious what does an extra 1-2" of barrel length matter? I just don't see the reason to restrict that? is a 27" barrel not "practical" but 26" is? Who determined that? Manufacturers? What about a 24" barrel with a can? Now you're over the length limit and getting the advantage of forward balance. Why limit weight in "open" at all? These are game guns. You need to move with them and be fast for half the stages. To be honest I own guns that are 7.5-28 lbs. Caliber makes more of a difference than weight for recoil and spotting misses. I'll take a 20lb BR over a 26 lb 6.5 creed for PRS any day.

Want to fix 30 LB rifles? More positional and 10 round, 10 position stages. If your rifle weight is making you time out because you can't move fast enough, the problem fixes itself.
Bingo, this should be the mentality. I just cleaned a 10 position 10 round shoothouse at the finale with a 32lb 6BR. For others this may be difficult to do, but I've had practice with this rifle and am probably a good bit stronger than the average PRS shooter. This is MY personal advantage. I'm sure others have much better resting heart rates and BP that allows them to make steadier shots however. I build my rifle to best play into my shooting style. Any shooter should build their rifle with a similar mentality. It should play to your strengths while masking your weaknesses. At the end of the day its about hitting steel! Do whatever you want in 90 seconds to hit as much of it as you can! The good shooters have found out with good MD stage design that a rifle and a bag is the way to go 90% of the time for positional stages. I watched a tonnn of guys time out at the finale trying to run bipods, tripods, whatever on stages.
 

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No,

this is just rifle, suppressors, scopes and accessories don't matter,

Yes 2" matters, because 2" will get you 4" --- see 30" 308 rifles in Tac Class

The restrictions on the gear matter, every sport with gear has restrictions on them, every sport with gear has restrictions on them, every sport with gear has restrictions on them.

Factory rifles have 26" or shorter, shorter barrels don't matter, weight is based on bare rifle, not accessories

You can change a factory rifle barrel and still be in the limited class

Speed matters in shooting sports, barrels are a function of speed

For the hair-splitting contrarians out there, this is BIG PICTURE for people walking off the street, it's easy to understand, it's easy to monitor and meter, it's simple and to the point. Everyone gets it and gives a positive perception to the people on the outside looking in.

Jacob and I at RIfles Only were more responsible for growing this segment of the sport than anyone, we launched into the stratosphere, I think I know how to put asses in the seats if you want to debate my bona fides here versus the peanut gallery

It does not have to be more complicated, then why is there, why, because it's limited and helps people understand. it falls between production and tactical and works with factory rifles. it balances the guy with an RPR to a guy with a semi-custom savage

You all say to "Grow" the sport and then act like a bunch of elitists without any concept of the world you live in.
 
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ColdSteel260

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A guy with a "Stock Production" RPR came in 29th at the PRS finale. He absolutely crushed other shooters with much more expensive gear. It's not as much about equipment as people make it to be. Case in point, tripods are a crutch for many folks who cannot get steady on unstable barricades. I see cleans on stages with just a gamechanger as well as people trying to goat rodeo a tripod and a bag.

I agree that Tac should be more practical. Production should be more factory equipment oriented.
Open however, that's what drives innovation and improvement in our sport.
 
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You still don't get it

Who cares what one guy does, this is about different folks, there are so many shooters out there who won't shoot competitions because you guys don't get it.

The production and tac division are broken, the rules don't work, if you cannot operate in the open division with a simple weight limit you have no business shooting this discipline and should take up BenchRest

It's simple and easy to follow, that is the point, it's not about the guys who adapted to this overtime when it was the wild west, but as you grow, you have to define a sport so the outside world understands it.

The 1500 or so current shooters are meaningless in the big picture, that is a drop in the bucket, you guys are focused on making 1500 individuals happy. Instead of saying here are the rules, here are the enforcement options, here are the restrictions to the game, it's all committee, cliques and who has an influence on any given day. Who's sponsor makes a product you want to be included.

You adapt to a set of rules that open the door and not close it. A weight limit says we are practical, we are man-portable, just because your events only include 10 yards of walking doesn't mean the world operates that way. I mean come on Carts in this sport, you're hauling equipment in golf carts now.

Perception is a powerful which is something you all never understood and why I can grow things better than most. I understand the perceptions. Even with this, the All About Me Competitors hates what have to say, and going with the flow would be an easier route. I can pretend to be on board with everything to date, and all you fickle shooters would fall in line. Or I can do what I do, and the ones who don't play your games will see me as a voice fo reason. I can cater to 1500 shooters I want to be my friend, or I can rally the rest out there and stack numbers even higher.
 
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ColdSteel260

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You still don't get it

Who cares what one guy does, this is about different folks, there are so many shooters out there who won't shoot competitions because you guys don't get it.
I'm trying to get a new guy to go shoot a match and he's reluctant because of all the gear "requirements". New shooter was going to buy a tripod. "Doesn't know what to do".
I just told him to get out there with dope and a gamechanger and the more experienced shooters will make sure he gets pointed in the right direction.

All the gear in the world doesn't make shooting any better. I agree that the carts are ridiculous. Ruck your 5 bags, tripod, spotter and 30lb rifle if that's what you want to run in open. However, production and tac needs to be more realistic with tripod, weight and other bag limitations if they are to be seen as "practical precision".

What suggestions do you have?
 

W54/XM-388

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Back at the RO matches, wasn't there sometimes some stages where they had a RO owned AI AW and Nightforce or S&B scope that everyone took a turn shooting with for part of the score?
 

generalzip

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You still don't get it

Who cares what one guy does, this is about different folks, there are so many shooters out there who won't shoot competitions because you guys don't get it.
To be honest I don't think people aren't coming out to competitions because of rules, class divisions, weight limits, equipment classes etc. I can remember back to when my buddy kept trying to get me to shoot a PRS match and I kept putting it off. I didn't even know there were divisions (Regional league in TX) or have any clue what the rules were with equipment, time, or anything else. The thing that stopped me from shooting had more to do with having a social life on the weekends and waking up to a chick in my bed. For some it's obligations to their children and families. For some it's work. For some it's financial constraints (ammo, gas, and time off work isn't cheap). Between that and the intimidation/embarrassment of showing up and getting my ass kicked at my first match deterred me from shooting PRS. Had I known what I was missing out on I would have started shooting PRS way sooner because it is pretty damn fun and the majority of folks are good guys to bullshit with.

My point is that I don't think divisions, classes, or more rules will add people to the sport. What will add people is people like my friend that kept convincing me I need to come try it. Someone that offered to take me under their wing and explain what to do, let me borrow their equipment, and otherwise have a good attitude and encourage me to get better.
 
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I'm trying to get a new guy to go shoot a match and he's reluctant because of all the gear "requirements". New shooter was going to buy a tripod. "Doesn't know what to do".
I just told him to get out there with dope and a gamechanger and the more experienced shooters will make sure he gets pointed in the right direction.

All the gear in the world doesn't make shooting any better. I agree that the carts are ridiculous. Ruck your 5 bags, tripod, spotter and 30lb rifle if that's what you want to run in open. However, production and tac needs to be more realistic with tripod, weight and other bag limitations if they are to be seen as "practical precision".

What suggestions do you have?
Are you serious

I have written my suggestion until was blue in the face,

Open and Limited, end of story

Limited

18LBS (bare rifles accessories dont' count)

26" Barrel (max for most factory rifles but also let you change it to a new barrel)

Factory Ammo Only

that is it,

No production class, that is Limited, No Tac Class that is Limited too
 
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You guys keep talking about what ONE guy did that One Time at that One event

We all have stories of that one guy,

But there are a 1000 guys looking in and not seeing it the same way you do. You all grew into it, there are a ton of shooters who had negative experiences too after just one event and never came back. You can blame them, you can blame the circumstances, but the fact is, it happens much more often than you want to admit.

Yes, putting everyone in one pot help grow the level of competition, but not the number of competitors.
 
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Prime is not gonna load for you and the last time I shot Copper Creek, it cost me $1800 for match ammo, that was one match too. He charges like $50 a box for that stuff

Factory ammo is the winner for the Limited Class,

If you want to invest in Copper Creek I will call it factory I don't care. But it just goes to show, you all point to the most obscure shit you can find. I guarantee the guy who can afford to shoot Copper Creek Ammo for a season is either sponsored or a terrible shot because he will have to work more to afford it.
 
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ColdSteel260

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I've seen a lot of great things with factory ammo. However I've also been to Bass pro and and multiple Academys looking and hunting for enough ammo to train and shoot with that belong to the same lot.

As much as I believe that Limited Class needs to be easier to enter into, I would hate for a competitor to have his dope change mid match because he's shooting a different lot of ammo.

Reloading has always been a way for a shooter to have enough consistent ammo throughout the match so that it doesn't become a game of which lot of ammo he has, it's going to be whether he's using the right DA or remembered to dial his dope.

A 40fps change in speed (which I've seen in factory ammo) is pretty catastrophic at longer ranges and leads to a poorer experience.

Factory ammo is the winner for the Limited Class,
 

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That is your problem

Modern factory ammo is a lot better today

The new Prime has single-digit SDs,

If you want to Shoot Privi Partisan that your choice if you are worried about, shoot Lapua Factory

But Hornady, which is the most common ammo out there, is excellent, Federal, Same, Lapua is expensive but great, Berger Now,

More excuses and one-off, you ask for solutions and then cry about them, yet every class I teach I see this stuff work everyday
 
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ColdSteel260

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Hornady makes fantastic factory ammo. That's all I shoot when I shoot out of a box.
However, what is your reasoning on restricting handloads?
 

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It's the LIMITED DIVISION

it levels the playground, it's what entry-level shooters do, they shoot factory.

Try reading the thread, seriously you repeating the same shit from two pages ago

Ammo matters, not everyone reloads, the limited division is the entry division

You all bitch about participation trophies, rewarding people for no reason, okay two division with two classifications

Open Division, just a weight restriction, nothing else

Amateur Class or Pro Class that is it,

Limited Division - Has Limits

Amateur and Pro Class

That is it, No Tac, No Production Restrictions, No boy, girl, young, old, Amateur or Pro and after 5 Matches you are not an Amateur.

You have two classes and two divisions end of story

Factory ammo also supports the industry
 
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lte82

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I bet if the NRL tried something like this, it would really take off.
I like the limited division, factory guns with factory ammo. Makes sense.

I still think the people at the local level have the most influence on the sport. If local MD's host good matches, shooters bring their friends, and experienced guys help / mentor, it will be impossible to stop the growth. I've introduced at least 6 people to PRS, and four of them have started showing up on their own, and one started beating me this season pretty consistently (damn it). You want it grow, bring people out. It's really that simple!
 

LawnMM

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A guy with a "Stock Production" RPR came in 29th at the PRS finale. He absolutely crushed other shooters with much more expensive gear.
The fact that you put "stock production" in quotes makes me think you know better but the rest of your post suggests you don't.

That shooter is no spring chicken and has a long list of accomplishments in other disciplines.

I promise that rifle is anything but factory. Factory might have made it to comply with the rules but I doubt it's just like any other serial numbered RPR that came off the line.

IMO, he belongs in Open. He's sandbagging "production" because he can. Rules are rules and I suppose that's his choice.

If not for the countless circle jerk articles about what a badass he is on websites because he's "won his last three matches in a row" and he's "leading the division" when two of the three matches he was the ONLY PRODUCTION SHOOTER.

Might be the nicest guy in the world but to imply that he's what's possible with factory offerings is fucking LAUGHABLE.
 

cgobeli

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Pro and am. A and b. Skill classification is really the only way. The “production” idea is way to flawed. A barrel is a consumable to everybody in the sport. Having to use a factory barrel is MORE expensive when it’s shot out. Rules like this never work. I have a friend who is trying to decide whether or not to run production next year His rpr barrel is toast. In order to run production he will have to spend more for a factory barrel. His scope is too expensive, so he is buying one with a lower msrp to be class legal. Not money saving. Who cares about classifications. Just shoot. Your score is what it is. If you want to compare yourself with others with similar equipment or skill, you are welcome to do it
Do I know you?
 

cgobeli

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He's downgrading equipment to meet division requirements 🤔

Certainly sounds like what was intended when the division was created 🤷🏼‍♂️
This sounds like they are talking about me. So this was my first year competing, I have a bone stock RPR but I blew my wad on a second hand S&B that could grow with me in this sport. So because of the $2k scope limit I had to run open class, which isn't a big deal but if I was running production I could have won the Barrel Maker Classic production class, which would have allowed me to grab a discounted action to help build a custom rig. I tossed around the idea of running production, but ultimately caught a lot of shit for "gunning for a trophy" from guys that told me "if you want to compete I have to pay!" and "if you're not first, you're last!"
 
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ColdSteel260

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Guy is sponsored by Ruger. Started the season with a 26 inch barrel. RPR was not available with a 26 at that time.

Is that the same rifle you could buy at Bass Pro Shop? Maybe.
Was that rifle cherrypicked out of the assembly shop at Ruger? Maybe.
Did that rifle receive any extra attention before it left the shop? Maybe.

RPR rifles are hammers I'll give them that. Getting those A-tips to shoot well with a super long throated factory chamber.. :unsure:

The fact that you put "stock production" in quotes makes me think you know better but the rest of your post suggests you don't.

Might be the nicest guy in the world but to imply that he's what's possible with factory offerings is fucking LAUGHABLE.
 

Tx_Aggie

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Guy is sponsored by Ruger. Started the season with a 26 inch barrel. RPR was not available with a 26 at that time.

Is that the same rifle you could buy at Bass Pro Shop? Maybe.
Was that rifle cherrypicked out of the assembly shop at Ruger? Maybe.
Did that rifle receive any extra attention before it left the shop? Maybe.

RPR rifles are hammers I'll give them that. Getting those A-tips to shoot well with a super long throated factory chamber.. :unsure:
The RPR wasn't available in 6 Creed with a factory Arca handguard for most of 2019 either (was introduced first on the 6.5 PRC in April). The 6 Creed was updated with both the longer barrel and Arca handguard Q3 of this year, I think.

So yeah, definitely made by Ruger, but more of a prototype of a production gun than something off the shelf.
 
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A.Huggy

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I'm new here but I'd like to throw in my 2 cents. I've been gaming rule books in the automotive endurance racing world for 10 years.
The absolute #1 question when a new rule is proposed has to be: Is it enforceable? If it isn't enforced, then eventually it will be ignored by all but the new comers.

Are we going to commit to a mandatory "tech inspection" at every match? Otherwise, everyone in tac class is going to be running 185 juggs. Or if limited division was limited to factory ammo, everyone would be pulling bullets from factory ammo, adjusting the powder charge, seating depth, etc.

I'm sure there are guys out there hoping no one sticks a bore scope down their "factory" RPR barrel to discover it's a 5R, throated for VLD's, or whatever.
 

lowlight

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It's as enforceable as a Series wants to make it

Other shooting sports have tech inspections, it's not unheard of

I attended the 2013 Oregon Sniper Event that was billed a LE type event with a 308 component, it had rules, 168, 175, 2800fps speed limit and we had a shooter in my squad using 155s at 3000fps against the field. Doesn't take long to see it and figure it out


The current problem is there is ZERO ENFORCEMENT the series does not enforce rules on the shooters, they let it happen at the match level which often avoids any enforcement. You have to shoot someone on 5th Ave to get a negative ruling these days.

The thing is, if guys are gonna put handloads into a box of factory, someone usually knows or finds out pretty quick. most people are part of a clique or group, very few ventures to multiple matches on their own. Plus with squads being in close proximity you can easily figure out.

It's all enforceable unless the series decided not to, and clearly they decided not to enforce anything. If you started taxing people points for even minor violations you see a change, but alas none of this will ever happen as it's all just academic.

My Division, the whole point of this thread has nothing to do with Factory, Production or Tactical Division, it's two

Open and Limited and Limited Class has the only limitations of factory ammo. There is no Production Class, and barrels do not have to be factory

Again, you all keep confusing this stuff by not paying any attention to what is being said, Production and Tactical Classes do not work in the current system it needs to be changed. As Scott noted 2 pages back, Factory Barrels burn out, so allowing people to shoot aftermarket stuff is key, you just limit the length and weight of a rifle to truly limit it without restricting it.
 
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Long Range 338

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I'm new here but I'd like to throw in my 2 cents. I've been gaming rule books in the automotive endurance racing world for 10 years.
The absolute #1 question when a new rule is proposed has to be: Is it enforceable? If it isn't enforced, then eventually it will be ignored by all but the new comers.

Are we going to commit to a mandatory "tech inspection" at every match? Otherwise, everyone in tac class is going to be running 185 juggs. Or if limited division was limited to factory ammo, everyone would be pulling bullets from factory ammo, adjusting the powder charge, seating depth, etc.

I'm sure there are guys out there hoping no one sticks a bore scope down their "factory" RPR barrel to discover it's a 5R, throated for VLD's, or whatever.
Maybe its just me but anybody doing that much cheating to win a title in a hobby sport would defeat the purpose of competing in the first place. If there were 10s of thousands or more dollars on the line then of course you could expect such schemes. The stigma lumped onto a known cheater in a pond so small would ruin reputations permanently. As Frank mentioned the limitations wouldn't apply to the Open Division.
 

427Cobra

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I was there at the beginning of the PRS, I thought what a great idea, then I saw how it changed everybody and everything, the organizations charge WAY TOO MUCH to join, USPSA is 35 bucks a year, and actually has a national championship, and a world champion shot in IPSC. The lack of qualified ROs is a easy fix, staff gets to shoot the match for free on staff day, works great for IDPA/USPSA. Rule enforcement is non existent, and will always be, the reason why is the RO staff doesn’t have a vested interest in it, as for divisions there should only be 2, 308 and open, both should have a strict weight limit, 16 pounds for rifle and optic, with a heavy duty match DQ for those who bust it, as for production, gotta pay to play, I get the need to bring new people in but let’s face enforcement is almost impossible.
 
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cgobeli

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I was there at the beginning of the PRS, I thought what a great idea, then I saw how it changed everybody and everything, the organizations charge WAY TOO MUCH to join, USPSA is 35 bucks a year, and actually has a national championship, and a world champion shot in IPSC. The lack of qualified ROs is a easy fix, staff gets to shoot the match for free on staff day, works great for IDPA/USPSA. Rule enforcement is non existent, and will always be, the reason why is the RO staff doesn’t have a vested interest in it, as for divisions there should only be 2, 308 and open, both should have a strict weight limit, 16 pounds for rifle and optic, with a heavy duty match DQ for those who bust it, as for production, gotta pay to play, I get the need to bring new people in but let’s face enforcement is almost impossible.
Just curious, but why have a separate class for 308?
I was there at the beginning of the PRS, I thought what a great idea, then I saw how it changed everybody and everything, the organizations charge WAY TOO MUCH to join, USPSA is 35 bucks a year, and actually has a national championship, and a world champion shot in IPSC. The lack of qualified ROs is a easy fix, staff gets to shoot the match for free on staff day, works great for IDPA/USPSA. Rule enforcement is non existent, and will always be, the reason why is the RO staff doesn’t have a vested interest in it, as for divisions there should only be 2, 308 and open, both should have a strict weight limit, 16 pounds for rifle and optic, with a heavy duty match DQ for those who bust it, as for production, gotta pay to play, I get the need to bring new people in but let’s face enforcement is almost impossible.
Just out of curiosity, why the separate division for .308?
 

Crabcore

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I don't get the need for a 308 class either. They just don't show up enough at matches to make the juice worth the squeeze.

If anything, i would rather see a 6.5 creed class as "stock" since that is what new rifles are chambered in, and there are numerous match grade factory loadings available. This makes the most sense, especially if there is a class with a factory ammo requirement.
 

JC Steel

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And how many divisions did I propose vs how many were revealed recently ?

I think my rules are better and my divisions make sense , refined to say

Open - any rifle any caliber 24LBS limit

Limited - 18LBS limit - 26” barrel with factory Ammo only

Amateur
Pro

End of story
i like this