Divisions - Breaking down the Obvious

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easy enough to know what a scope weights, the worst offender is gonna be a Vortex Gen 2 Razor, it's 48oz,

Dr Google and 3 minutes is all you need,

If I am checking your rifle because it appears off, odds are you already know the answer, so pull the scope and weight it.

If you have to, do a NASCAR post-inspection, shoot the last stage, pull scope weigh rifle on the spot to lock in your score.

Guys are gonna push the limits, this is where the series does nothing to enforce rules, they don't tax any rule violations at all.

In my mind, you would have a penalty report and guys would be losing points just about every match. Any rule violation that is caught would reduce match points. Why do you pay a series to manage your score and moderate events but don't officiate the shooters in any way shape or form?

They are lazy and scared to take points from people and will go out of their to deflect or hide blatant rule violations so they don't have to be the bad guy.

What are you actually paying for? The MD does the match, the series takes your money and keeps your score on a website, but outside of that and raking in money with, Official X Sponsor of the X Series, they do nothing for you in return.

I can build a webpage on here for pennies and manage all your scores for free... it's simple, I can even give you a better profile, higher views and more exposure as an individual should you choose it, but instead, you want to pay people who do nothing for you.
 
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Dthomas3523

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How would you enforce a weight limit on the rifle minus the scope? Make folks remove their scopes, weigh, then remount? Honor system?
I’d imagine it would be total weight if system.

If not, scope manufacturers list the weight. Just subtract it from total weight. Have a +/- range you have to be within. You’re not looking for the guys that are a few oz over weight. Just getting rid of the extreme range.

Which isn’t really bad right now as most people aren’t running 28lb+ rigs. I’d think a rule like this would be preventative measure to keep it from moving that direction.
 
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Dthomas3523

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I guess the other thing I'd like to see is a number of standard stages/ranges at each pro series match. I.e. 10 stages with the same target size at the same distance with no more than X degree of angle of this standardized barricade or prone. Put two target sets out at each stage, one for pros and one for Am's; 1.5 moa and 3 moa or whatever is appropriate for the stage. The other 10 or 12 stages the MD could do whatever he/she wanted.
I think this standardized would go a long ways to finally being able to rank shooters. Also, it would level the playing field out for local/traveling shooters. Use the scores on those 10 stages throughout the year to rank shooters for their finale.
Might as well go shoot F class if you know the ranges and obstacles ahead of time all year. You’ll lose a lot of shooters that way.

The format of Nrl22 requires the monthly cof to be released at the beginning of the month. There are people who practice it repeatedly before the match in that area (absolutely nothing wrong or against rules).

It trivializes the highest scores.

Part of the entire point of PRS matches is to test the ability of being able to adapt to stage without having practiced the exact stage over and over.

Obviously many stages are run like a basic barricade as far as how you shoot them. But knowing the distances and obstacles for a whole season would like bore more than excite.
 

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It seems to me, some of the shooters are part of the problem.

They want shit handed to them and consider it fair to do so, rather than enter an event blind. Which to me is 10x more fun, especially having come off a CD match last month where the stages are totally blind. Doing it all on the clock, having to hold gear in hand, it's a lot more fun and the sense of accomplishment is bigger

This is supposed to be a practical/tactical rifles series, not a give it all to me upfront like F Class or Benchrest

As well with scoring, I would say no single target gets more than 3 shots on it, then you can do a 3, 2, 1 point system across the board.

1st Round = 3
2nd Round = 2
3rd Round = 1

Then I would, as a routine, require movement or a different target to be shot.
 
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Dthomas3523

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I think a pretty high weight class on open around 28lbs (guys can apparently move them around quick enough to shoot props, so go for it), and about 22lbs for limited would be acceptable. As pointed out, it’s pretty easy to get a rifle like an AX to weigh 20lbs or more and not really be trying. Or no weight limit if someone wants to start moving a 40lb rifle around and can do it as fast as I can with 18lbs.......I guess I need to go to the gym.

But a weight limit on “limited” class is reasonable I think. 18-20lbs somewhere.

My AT with a 26” heavy palma, arca rail, ARC rings, and theta optic is 17-18lbs without ammo.

I also agree that you should probably let people use as much equipment as they want as long as it’s within reach and deployed on the clock.

If a guy practices with and gets good enough to deploy a tripod as a rear support and get 10+ shots off in 90sec......go for it. It’s not an easy thing to do.
 

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I am fine with gear, as long as its on the clock.

I think the limited class should limit it, as that makes it more inviting to new shooters, but for Open, I don't see any gear restrictions except it has to be carried and all gear is deployed on the clock. I would require all gear to move with the shooter too to eliminate the coolers and milk crates from appearing at specific stages.

If you carry it, you can use it in Open, I would just limit things in Limited to 1 rear bag, 1 auxiliary bag, and a tripod, but nothing else.
 

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These changes make sense. Now, selfishly, I would hate to see Tactical Division go by the way side, but a little innovation would go a long way in making these matches more appealing to the next generation. The "run what you brung" matches are fun, but in my view not sustainable.

I know there are plenty new shooters that come every year, but they also go equally as fast. I am still shooting with and meeting with the same people I were in 2015. Again, my experience.

I am not sure why some of these ideas haven't been taken up by MDs and PRS Leadership. Many of them are members of the forum and have made comments about things that have been posted about the series. Maybe they don't think there is an issue because the money is still coming in (bills are getting paid and trucks getting bought) maybe they are getting advice in an echo chamber, I don't know. Since I have been shooting, there has always been belly aching and griping about this or that, but this past season it has reached a much higher level.

I use these matches for personal training and ideas to develop training whenever there are some tactical nuggets to pull from stages.

Weight, speed, and gear restcitions make sense to me as do delineating between Pros and AMs

@Dthomas3523 said it best....99% is the fun stuff.
 

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They are lazy

They should have more data on this then we do, but they don't care. The information is out there, they just choose to ignore it, or are not smart enough to use it.

Why change when they know they can sell a $50,000 sponsorship,

I would be mining every match for data to improve things across the board. I would be putting out guidelines, new skills stages, videos explaining how to do things like run a stage as an RO. (I offered this help several years ago, was turned down because my Jersey Letter offended you folks) You have a full-blown competition/training facility at your fingertips and yet we see nothing.

One of the reasons I am not chasing competitions is, I don't have a place in my backyard I can use that way. We have the range we train on, but its not a match facility we have never run a match on it. If I owned a place that is set up for matches, things would be very different.

The changes would be quick and across the board, the information would be flowing weekly to support those paying me.

They are so mad at me for pointing out the obvious nobody wants to do anything because, in their mind, it acknowledges a problem. They have a, "Change the Channel" mentality in order to block and hide issues from the public.


Then the inmates get to run the asylum, the rules are swayed each week based on who say or did what, there is no consistency
 

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Old guy (almost-late-60s) here with about dozen PRS-style matches' experience over the last two years. A few GENERAL thoughts from someone with 30 years' experience in other disciplines, perhaps worth exactly what you're paying for said thoughts.
  • Newcomers reading threads like this could easily assume competitions are attended by testosterone-soaked, alt-right knuckle draggers who look down on newcomers with cheap factory rifles with cheap scopes. That hasn't been my experience at all, even though I know objectively that people look down on the old guys. I've made some solid new friends. Most people at matches are very friendly, approachable and helpful to new folks.

  • Rifle weight limits etc.: The best shooters are going to dominate no matter what gun they use. Period. So I don't care if somebody has a 35-pound rifle mounted with a rangefinder-equipped self-ranging 2-200x scope. If he/she can't shoot, it simply Does Not Matter. I spent 20+ years in every-single-weekend skeet practice/competition. Skeet is really easy compared with rifle; a perfect 100-straight score only gets you into the tie-breaker shootoffs in the higher classes. The only limits on shotguns are gauge classification and associated shot load weight. I've seen truly bizarre crap hung off of hugely expensive shotguns (the most common tournament shotguns' base price new with subgauge tube set is around $12k) by people looking for an advantage. Who cares? "Open" and "Limited" mostly as Frank described seem reasonable to me.

  • Categories: I find it extremely amusing that the "Senior" category starts at 55 and that's the "oldest" category. It demonstrates that people who are making the rules have no damn clue what "senior" really means. Calling a 55-year-old a "senior" is like calling an 18-year-old an "adult" in real life. There is a LOT of physical deterioration that happens in the 60-65 age period. In skeet, there are classifications that start at 70, 80, and even 90.

  • Gaming the system/cheating: If you have to win to have fun and you have to cheat to win... sad way to live. Yeah, we had it in skeet. People who would go to little shoots or targets-only events and deliberately post low scores to push their classification lower. Then they would go to major, big-$ shoots with a better chance at winning class prize money. We called it "sandbagging," and there were - are - always attempts to create rules to mitigate it. My attitude was always "If somebody needs to win so badly that they have to cheat to do so, it will eventually catch up to them... and that need to win will destroy whatever fun there is in participating." I know a talented shooter who has grown older... he can't run with the big dogs anymore so he just quit. He won't try different shooting sports because his ego demands that he be the best. Another has established a reputation for blaming referees when he has a bad day. Sad way to live. For me, if I finish near the middle of the scores in a PRS match, I've had a Real Good Day. It's a game. It's supposed to be fun.

  • Carts: I understand the younger, still-strong men and women who look askance at me and my cart and my glacial progress through a stage. Know what? I don't give a damn. I've been young and strong. Now I'm not. Other, younger people may have physical issues that aren't obvious. Everyone will lose youth and strength, and some will remember making snarky comments. I'm very happy I can still participate and compete At All.

  • I hope the rifle competitions never go the way of skeet: cash purses. When I quit competing several years ago, the $35 (now usually $45 for small/medium matches) per-gauge entry fee included $7 toward the purse: $5 to gauge champions and $2 for class winners. Only the gauge champs might win double or more of their entry fee. The class winners did very well to even win their entry fee back. Of course, at larger shoots with 150 or more shooters, there was more money. But it was also far harder to win. As much as I enjoyed skeet, I got very tired of handing $5 of my entry fee to the same tiny group of top-rung shooters while the class winners received a tiny pittance. I'd rather have shot for honors and maybe little trophies (even though I won over $1000 in today's dollars at an added-money shoot when I was a new, low-classification shooter).
I don't participate in the PRS points accumulation because the pleasure I get from rifle competition is in new target presentation with each match and being the best I can be - each match is a new day. Not sure how many more seasons I'll be physically able to play, but I'm happy to be able to do so.
 
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Yoteski

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Might as well go shoot F class if you know the ranges and obstacles ahead of time all year. You’ll lose a lot of shooters that way.

The format of Nrl22 requires the monthly cof to be released at the beginning of the month. There are people who practice it repeatedly before the match in that area (absolutely nothing wrong or against rules).

It trivializes the highest scores.

Part of the entire point of PRS matches is to test the ability of being able to adapt to stage without having practiced the exact stage over and over.

Obviously many stages are run like a basic barricade as far as how you shoot them. But knowing the distances and obstacles for a whole season would like bore more than excite.
It's already happening. There's a bunch of ranges that local guys can shoot at any time they want. So why would standardizing a certain # of stages change the match outcome for the worse?
The MD would still have freedom to do whatever they want on the other 50%, or whatever number you want to insert, stages. Pretty much every other sport has standardized rules, its so you can practice and be better within those rules. I mean, what has been done at a match that's really broke the mold lately?
I get the CD matches and am all for them. They are an outlier when it comes to matches compared to PRS/NRL. For the record, I much prefer field style CD matches.
 

Sierra770

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They are lazy

They should have more data on this then we do, but they don't care. The information is out there, they just choose to ignore it, or are not smart enough to use it.

Why change when they know they can sell a $50,000 sponsorship,

I would be mining every match for data to improve things across the board. I would be putting out guidelines, new skills stages, videos explaining how to do things like run a stage as an RO. (I offered this help several years ago, was turned down because my Jersey Letter offended you folks) You have a full-blown competition/training facility at your fingertips and yet we see nothing.

One of the reasons I am not chasing competitions is, I don't have a place in my backyard I can use that way. We have the range we train on, but its not a match facility we have never run a match on it. If I owned a place that is set up for matches, things would be very different.

The changes would be quick and across the board, the information would be flowing weekly to support those paying me.

They are so mad at me for pointing out the obvious nobody wants to do anything because, in their mind, it acknowledges a problem. They have a, "Change the Channel" mentality in order to block and hide issues from the public.


Then the inmates get to run the asylum, the rules are swayed each week based on who say or did what, there is no consistency
Well, just because someone is doing business, doesn't mean they are automatically a businessman ;). Data is a powerful thing and can certainly move this forward. The NRL/PRS may be trying to do something like you have listed above, I don't know. I would like to think so. Many Match Directors shoot matches so they should be aware of many of these issues. I don't know how they couldn't be.

Perhaps a Federation of Match Directors will emerge and impliment some of the above changes.
 
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Dthomas3523

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It's already happening. There's a bunch of ranges that local guys can shoot at any time they want. So why would standardizing a certain # of stages change the match outcome for the worse?
The MD would still have freedom to do whatever they want on the other 50%, or whatever number you want to insert, stages. Pretty much every other sport has standardized rules, its so you can practice and be better within those rules. I mean, what has been done at a match that's really broke the mold lately?
I get the CD matches and am all for them. They are an outlier when it comes to matches compared to PRS/NRL. For the record, I much prefer field style CD matches.
Match outcome = same

Boredom factor = way up

I don’t know of any other individual game/sport that gives you everything (except wind in this case) and you just try to see who can come up with the better time.

Hell, look at how boring the PRS barricade has become. That would literally be half the match “oh look, the prs barricade stage.”

There is already a set of standards for guys to practice:

be able to shoot your rifle at any distance within 1400 yds or so in 2min or less, off a variety of positions.

Being able to practice at a range ya much different when you show up and they change the order or distance, etc etc.
 

Sierra770

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Match outcome = same

Boredom factor = way up

I don’t know of any other individual game/sport that gives you everything (except wind in this case) and you just try to see who can come up with the better time.

Hell, look at how boring the PRS barricade has become. That would literally be half the match “oh look, the prs barricade stage.”

There is already a set of standards for guys to practice:

be able to shoot your rifle at any distance within 1400 yds or so in 2min or less, off a variety of positions.

Being able to practice at a range ya much different when you show up and they change the order or distance, etc etc.
^^^^^^^This guy knows what's up!
 

BLKWLFK9

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Aye, real talk. I use to make fun of the stroller gangs but I've been tired of carrying rifle, spotter, and pack all the time. I just picked up a SWEET Baby Trend Expedition stroller like new for a hot $25. Fuck what u heard, I'm going to be rocking that bitch like a Rolls Royce!
 
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The data is out there,

Think about mining stage data, what the stage entailed, how it was shot, who the competitors scored it, that is valuable information.

You can even look at an average for each stage, if 90% cleaned it, or shot above 75% it's probably too easy if only 25% hit a few targets, too hard, or it's something we might want to look at and focus on.

I would be sampling everyone at each event with a short index card questionnaire as the series:

What was your favorite stage:

What was your least favorite stage:

That alone will give you a ton of information, have pre-printed postcards made up and given to each MD with some basic details. If you see at every 3rd event there is an ND or several NDs you can figure out what is causing it, Speed, Support Side, Trigger Weights, etc. You can improve so much.

What I noticed is, the NRL has a presence at each match, at least it appeared to me they attended and took an interest in the individual events. I would be leveraging that to mine data from the shooters to make the series better.
 
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Sierra770

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Aye, real talk. I use to make fun of the stroller gangs but I've been tired of carrying rifle, spotter, and pack all the time. I just picked up a SWEET Baby Trend Expedition stroller like new for a hot $25. Fuck what u heard, I'm going to be rocking that bitch like a Rolls Royce!
I still make fun of them. Perhaps I will evolve on the issue. :(
 
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Sierra770

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The data is out there,

Think about mining stage data, what the stage entailed, how it was shot, who the competitors scored it, that is valuable information.

You can even look at an average for each stage, if 90% cleaned it, or shot above 75% it's probably too easy if only 25% hit a few targets, too hard, or it's something we might want to look at and focus on.

I would be sampling everyone at each event with a short index card questionnaire as the series:

What was your favorite stage:

What was your least favorite stage:

That alone will give you a ton of information, have pre-printed postcards made up and given to each MD with some basic details. If you see at every 3rd event there is an ND or several NDs you can figure out what is causing it, Speed, Support Side, Trigger Weights, etc. You can improve so much.

What I noticed is, the NRL has a presence at each match, at least it appeared to me they attended and took an interest in the individual events. I would be leveraging that to mine data from the shooters to make the series better.
I guess I took for granted that some of that was going on behind these scenes with Practiscore data. Questionnaires would be good.....that is...if shooter experience matters, which I believe it should. To me, the shooter experience at a match is more important than any other factor as to whether or not I will return...regardless of prize table, proximity, or match director. There are well known/well marketed matches I won't shoot again because the shooter experience was sub-par.
 

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I still make fun of them. Perhaps I will evolve on the issue. :(
O, you will. Trust me on that! I remember being in the gym, doing curls with 50lb dumbbells. Nearby, an "old guy" was doing the same thing with 10lb weights. I clearly remember thinking, "I hope I never let myself get that weak." Today, 30+ years later, I can't do a single pushup. Not because I'm "weak" - but because permanent damage to tendons and ligaments in my elbows and arthritis in the joints - perhaps hastened by that very weight training - makes pushups feel like red-hot ice picks are being stuck in them. If I stand still on a hard surface for more than a few minutes, there's a good chance my legs will go numb from sciatic nerve impingement by my arthritis-riddled lumbar spine. Enjoy a fully-functioning body while you have it! :)
 

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Ask yourself this,

Everyone wants to make excuses, but consider this, you are 6 years in, how many owners since, and what changes have you noticed? Changes that could be considered an improvement vs something else, like ease for the locals or something self serving.

It's not new anymore, it's well beyond the 3 years for a business to get its legs under it. The changes in ownership is not a benefit, it's a bug in the system which says, it's still not right. Especially when you consider how many matches the owners have under their belt.
 
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sstacllc

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For the most part Yeah!
I like weight limits
Limited should be box ammo 223/308
I think we should be able to replace the barrel on a Production gun. They burn up and aren't disposable. One of the reasons this division struggles. The no barrel rule protects the custom gun makers.
It's tough to separate out by skill example Jon Pynch went from hunting one year to 5th
 

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What does anyone think about possibly a lower round count per stage and per match for "limited class"?

A couple of the obstacles I have seen for getting fellow shooters into the sport are:
1. Ammo expense per match for them shooting their factory ammo is too much for them.
2. They have a very capable rifle/scope but their factory rifle is an internal box mag holding 4 or 5 rounds.

These problems may be impossible and too limiting to try to address, but I thought I would bring it up. I have taken a new shooters to the Sporting Rifle Match in Raton, NM and got them hooked on precision shooting. That match is appealing to new shooters partially because it is 60 rounds max, 6 rounds per stage, and longer time limits.
 
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jsimonh

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What does anyone think about possibly a lower round count per stage and per match for "limited class"?

A couple of the obstacles I have seen for getting fellow shooters into the sport are:
1. Ammo expense per match for them shooting their factory ammo is too much for them.
2. They have a very capable rifle/scope but their factory rifle is an internal box mag holding 4 or 5 rounds.

These problems may be impossible and too limiting to try to address, but I thought I would bring it up. I have taken a new shooters to the Sporting Rifle Match in Raton, NM and got them hooked on precision shooting. That match is appealing to new shooters partially because it is 60 rounds max, 6 rounds per stage, and longer time limits.

We addressed this in our local club. Blind mags are fine for the first time out but there are lots of BMs that fit factory openings that wont break the bank so a guy that gets hooked can convert over pretty cheaply to start. We keep our local matches to under 60rds. We have a great time together but try to get the Match shot, hang out for a few, and head home. Including travel most of our guys can come shoot and be home in 5-6 hours. The lower round count cuts down on cost and time for our members.
 

Sierra770

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I believe detachable mags are part of the price of admission (equipment wise) to shoot a practical/tactical match. Sure it can and has been done without it, but it seems to be a pain for the shooter and the ROs.
 

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I was thinking about replacing barrels for the 6.5/6mm. And instead of limiting a barrel in terms of replacement - just limit length to 26”

the limited class needs greater restriction - but barrels are disposable. I think limiting caliber is worse than sticking to a factory length like 26”

18LBS
26” max
Factory Ammo only

it needs to open enough to invite participants but limited so people are not running over it with Gucci stuff
 

sstacllc

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The international rules we are coming up with are pretty simple. Paraphrasing here
Open = anything
Limited = anything but box ammo and we are working to get the ammo covered by a sponsor so everyone is shooting the same ammo
Factory = rifle company needs to make over 2k rifles annually the barrel can be swapped but it has to be in the original caliber and contour. The rifle can be bedded other than that it has to be in the same configuration as it came out of the box. AIs would count. After looking at this for some time I think cost limitation is not the answer.
The Division I'm most excited about is
Sporting = 16lb max weight with everything attached, Bipod has to be in a fixed position, 5 round max eithe one magazine or internal box and a minimum power factor of 380,000 (bullet weight X VE) with a 3200 fps speed limit 6 mm with 115s will not make the minimum
 
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Sierra770

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The international rules we are coming up with are pretty simple. Paraphrasing here
Open = anything
Limited = anything but box ammo and we are working to get the ammo covered by a sponsor so everyone is shooting the same ammo
Factory = rifle company needs to make over 2k rifles annually the barrel can be swapped but it has to be in the original caliber and contour. The rifle can be bedded other than that it has to be in the same configuration as it came out of the box. AIs would count. After looking at this for some time I think cost limitation is not the answer.
The Division I'm most excited about is
Sporting = 16lb max weight with everything attached, Bipod has to be in a fixed position, 5 round max eithe one magazine or internal box and a minimum power factor of 380,000 (bullet weight X VE) with a 3200 fps speed limit 6 mm with 115s will not make the minimum
Will there be shooter classifications within those? Senior, youth etc?
 

W54/XM-388

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The Division I'm most excited about is
Sporting = 16lb max weight with everything attached, Bipod has to be in a fixed position, 5 round max eithe one magazine or internal box and a minimum power factor of 380,000 (bullet weight X VE) with a 3200 fps speed limit 6 mm with 115s will not make the minimum
Seems a bit stupidly unnecessary and making up rules for the sake of rules.
the 5 round maximum seems pointless and just there to for no good reason, Most magazines hold 5 to 10 so BFD
Minimum power factor seems more like just trying to force a different caliber use because of someone's old prejudices.
It won't give your ancient hunting rifles any advantage over something that will be built to fit those rules, so why bother?

Just change the round count per stage and no need for restrictions on magazine capacity.

You would do better adding a class for .22 only for those that want to mostly be cheap (unless they really want to pay to play in it) and then maybe adding in 2 youth classes, something for like 6 to 14 and then for 15 to 18 or such
 

kriller134

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The international rules we are coming up with are pretty simple. Paraphrasing here
Open = anything
Limited = anything but box ammo and we are working to get the ammo covered by a sponsor so everyone is shooting the same ammo
Factory = rifle company needs to make over 2k rifles annually the barrel can be swapped but it has to be in the original caliber and contour. The rifle can be bedded other than that it has to be in the same configuration as it came out of the box. AIs would count. After looking at this for some time I think cost limitation is not the answer.
The Division I'm most excited about is
Sporting = 16lb max weight with everything attached, Bipod has to be in a fixed position, 5 round max eithe one magazine or internal box and a minimum power factor of 380,000 (bullet weight X VE) with a 3200 fps speed limit 6 mm with 115s will not make the minimum
The sporting division sounds awesome! Is this something you're working on for one of the series or for your own thing?
 

sstacllc

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Seems a bit stupidly unnecessary and making up rules for the sake of rules.
the 5 round maximum seems pointless and just there to for no good reason, Most magazines hold 5 to 10 so BFD
Minimum power factor seems more like just trying to force a different caliber use because of someone's old prejudices.
It won't give your ancient hunting rifles any advantage over something that will be built to fit those rules, so why bother?

Just change the round count per stage and no need for restrictions on magazine capacity.

You would do better adding a class for .22 only for those that want to mostly be cheap (unless they really want to pay to play in it) and then maybe adding in 2 youth classes, something for like 6 to 14 and then for 15 to 18 or such
Not making rules up Just because. I could care less what is thought of in the US. These rules are for mass consumption on the international stage. There are 18 countries so far and some have different gun regulations than we do. Edit Additionally the match will is tentatively in Spain March 2021 and will be a 4 day event 2 x 2 day with Open and limited on day 1-2. Factory and Sporting on day 3-4. With 5 rifles per division per participating country. Participants not shooting on day 1-2 will R/O 1-2 and vis versa. That's the plan right now.
 
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sstacllc

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I was thinking about replacing barrels for the 6.5/6mm. And instead of limiting a barrel in terms of replacement - just limit length to 26”

the limited class needs greater restriction - but barrels are disposable. I think limiting caliber is worse than sticking to a factory length like 26”

18LBS
26” max
Factory Ammo only

it needs to open enough to invite participants but limited so people are not running over it with Gucci stuff
I understand the intent but why not open the rules up for a barrel swap? What are doing right now isn't working with the production division. IMO because it forces guys to shoot half season and buy a new rifle = doesn't make any sense. I 'ld like to see the big box companies get more involved.
 
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davsco

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I would have two different targets for each Division, a Pro Side and an Amateur side.
strongly disagree. i (avg joe at best) always want to see how i stack up with the best shooter out there, irrespective of division (ie equipment) or any classification (pro, am, newbie, etc). if one group has different targets and/or different par times, i cannot do that. plus 2x the number of targets out there is confusing, takes up space and surely increases setup time and steel inventory/cost.
 

sstacllc

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strongly disagree. i (avg joe at best) always want to see how i stack up with the best shooter out there, irrespective of division (ie equipment) or any classification (pro, am, newbie, etc). if one group has different targets and/or different par times, i cannot do that. plus 2x the number of targets out there is confusing, takes up space and surely increases setup time and steel inventory/cost.
Agreed as an MD I would opt out of ruining a match with 2 sets of targets
 

lowlight

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You can easily do it with 3 targets, not two sets,

They can shoot a bigger target, then use the Pro small or medium targets

the problem is you isolate people that have a bad first-time experience

Why not use 3 targets on every stage, a small med and large then if you cannot grasp the concept

Too often the targets are out of portion for the level of competition

Plus you are only an Amateur for a handful of events, you quickly would be off the AM status after 5 matches

This balances the COF for a new shooter, it's like having a gamble with an extra small one for pros and medium and large

But if you want to be a typical lazy MD and have them shoot the same target every time like we often see, have at it, this is the type of closed-minded thinking where people are not actually looking to grow the sport, just grow the myth of the few chosen winners.

You need to balance the target package, either with 3 targets or use two sets, but at a minimum, I want a meatball plate for new shooters.

When guys go to match and only hit 25% or less, they are not getting a positive experience, this is designed to balance that, and you are still shooting the same thing as the PRO guys, you just adjust how they do it, which I know, takes imagination and not playing on auto pilot
 

lowlight

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This is all FAKE

what part of this do not understand, I have said this out loud, I am not playing competition anymore but if you want to accuse me of not having a solution we can play academic exercise and map out a better path

Try opening your minds, try looking at where people are not being served correctly. This is a SPORTS ENTERTAINMENT thing, you should be thinking about the end user experience

Sounds to me like match directors that have no clue how to mine data to a better experience

I find it funny the video game industry can in a few short years, a billion-dollar sports entertainment section in ESports where you watch kids play video games, and yet you rocket scientist cannot get out of your own way to make matches more inviting and open to a greater number of shooters, or at the very least standardize a program so its not a bunch of mediocre matches alongside a couple good ones.

If you cannot host a proper match stick to one day local stuff.
 

sstacllc

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You can easily do it with 3 targets, not two sets,

They can shoot a bigger target, then use the Pro small or medium targets

the problem is you isolate people that have a bad first-time experience

Why not use 3 targets on every stage, a small med and large then if you cannot grasp the concept

Too often the targets are out of portion for the level of competition

Plus you are only an Amateur for a handful of events, you quickly would be off the AM status after 5 matches

This balances the COF for a new shooter, it's like having a gamble with an extra small one for pros and medium and large

But if you want to be a typical lazy MD and have them shoot the same target every time like we often see, have at it, this is the type of closed-minded thinking where people are not actually looking to grow the sport, just grow the myth of the few chosen winners.

You need to balance the target package, either with 3 targets or use two sets, but at a minimum, I want a meatball plate for new shooters.

When guys go to match and only hit 25% or less, they are not getting a positive experience, this is designed to balance that, and you are still shooting the same thing as the PRO guys, you just adjust how they do it, which I know, takes imagination and not playing on auto pilot
My Nightforce match would have $100,000 worth of Steel. Edit are you going to execute this plan at the SH Cup?
 
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lowlight

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Your NF match is a completely different animal

Try keeping up

An ELR Based match is not a 600-yard match like we are discussing, it's a one-off

I love how guys want to claim so much prestige but then bitch about a target package in a national level sport that is all about hitting targets

How do matches allow you to shoot all weekend and never hit the same target twice ?
 

sstacllc

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Your NF match is a completely different animal

Try keeping up

An ELR Based match is not a 600-yard match like we are discussing, it's a one-off

I love how guys want to claim so much prestige but then bitch about a target package in a national level sport that is all about hitting targets

How do matches allow you to shoot all weekend and never hit the same target twice ?
LOL that doesn't happen. We can get away with that out West we have space. I'm not sure we need to accommodate 3 target sizes or modify COF for any Division or skill level. I'm not saying we don't either. I'ld like to see it tried. As far as data mining etc most MDs do not have that kind of platform or website. I don't have the funds or inclination to either. Edit also what I'm getting at is that im part of the folks your are talking about in big generalizations. Every MD situation is unique some can, some can't and some won't. let the market sort it out
 
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lowlight

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Let the market sort it out

data mining doesn’t require a website you have a captured audience

I am basically responding to two situations.

One regarding the tactical division and production division which don’t work read the thread

two the fact I was told I only bitch and never offer solutions - but I would rebut and say nothing moves and solutions never happen in any meaningful way.

a maybe there is too many sub par matches that are artificially sustained and that big picture should be addressed in some fashion

we both know none of this will ever change. Especially coming from here or worst me.

Change is needed and there is a large cross section of shooters not being looked at who are active in the industry just not the sport side.

I am merely playing an academic game to address these issues
 

davsco

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You can easily do it with 3 targets, not two sets,

They can shoot a bigger target, then use the Pro small or medium targets

the problem is you isolate people that have a bad first-time experience

Why not use 3 targets on every stage, a small med and large then if you cannot grasp the concept

Too often the targets are out of portion for the level of competition

Plus you are only an Amateur for a handful of events, you quickly would be off the AM status after 5 matches

This balances the COF for a new shooter, it's like having a gamble with an extra small one for pros and medium and large

But if you want to be a typical lazy MD and have them shoot the same target every time like we often see, have at it, this is the type of closed-minded thinking where people are not actually looking to grow the sport, just grow the myth of the few chosen winners.

You need to balance the target package, either with 3 targets or use two sets, but at a minimum, I want a meatball plate for new shooters.

When guys go to match and only hit 25% or less, they are not getting a positive experience, this is designed to balance that, and you are still shooting the same thing as the PRO guys, you just adjust how they do it, which I know, takes imagination and not playing on auto pilot
not aware of any other game that has different targets or times for different classes of shooters (uspsa, idpa, 2 & 3 gun, etc).

if you want the newbies to have a better time, and nothing is wrong with that, run the match like uspsa or 3 gun, and have larger targets with time + hits or time - misses being your score. the fast guys can hit everything fast and the new guys can hit everything and feel good, albeit slower.

honestly though i think what's keeping the crowds out of PRS is match fee $$$. even after dropping more (ok, way more) than a few thou on my stuff, i still cringe at paying $100 - $300 to shoot a match.

one local 3 gun match has a great idea. you can pay more but win cash based on placement. or you can pay less and just shoot for fun with no money back. sign up in whichever you want.
 

lowlight

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The idea is

Its a 5 match learning curve, in pistol the bullet goes where your finger is pointed for lack of a better way to describe it.

we are adjusting in two planes hence the idea to make things easier for entry - it’s a starting point to help new shooters understand and progress

I get it, it’s a bit complex-but not really - it’s a training thing vs a competitive thing.

you do t see the multi day train ups like we used to do at every Rifles Only -SH event. That is the missing component in my mind so incorporate it into the event for newbies
 

Crabcore

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The data is super easy to get. We are collecting it at the local matches in Wisconsin. Every match you sign up for, you fill out a little gear list. One of our members posted an article about what actions are showing up at our matches. It is very interesting to see what real life people bring, and not just the echo chamber of the internet. At a match of 80 shooters, the number of PRS members is probably only about 10 people. This shows the lack of engagement the PRS itself is having with actual competitors.
 
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