Divisions - Breaking down the Obvious

lowlight

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Rather than hijack the other thread about the tactical division, I wanted to address the breakdown of various groups of shooters.

Before we begin,

I want to acknowledge a few points from the other thread.

1. I agree the LE community will never step up unless the entry fee is free. Basing a Division on their participation is flawed. I too would like to see more participation from both communities but that just won't happen in any significant way. It should be dropped unless you are gonna offer them a huge discount or completely separate them out.

2. Caliber set aside, I think the production division should be looked at as well. It's asking the wrong question.


I think both series do a terrible job in the description of who and what a new shooter is, or more importantly how they break them into categories. You want to have a separation between competitors, the PRS attempts this and the NRL is trying to reduce it to a bare minimum. People want to compare themselves in an Apples to Apple sort of way, no first-time shooter want to be compared to a Top Shooter who has been doing this for several years, there is a learning curve.

Unfortunately, this means more work for the series and I personally believe they go out of their way to do less. If they had a better work ethic, you'd see this stuff fixed at a much higher rate. Seems like you need two seasons of discussion for one quick fix. Look at the skill stages when was the last time that was addressed in any meaningful way. The Series should be setting a standard for individuals to follow, not just sitting back letting each match do its own thing or in this case, not creating a system for people to follow.

Series should be about the standardization of skills and classifications.

Open Class

This is pretty easy, the open class is what we are currently looking at today. You need two divisions in the Open Class, Amateur and Pro. You can debate the breakdown but this would carry over to a lot of other situations as well like the GAP Grind which always has to define these terms for people. Who is a Pro and what does it mean to be an amateur?

I think we only need to look at new shooters as the Pro side will take care of itself. Give it a real definition, which is the point. For me, I see an Amatuer as someone who has shot 5 matches or less. It doesn't matter, local, regional, or national. Give them a star for each match in your leaderboard so you can follow them. For some, that may mean they are amateurs for a few years, especially if they only shoot one or two a year. Odds are, if you are 3 years down the road and still have not shot 5, you're probably not a threat anyway.

I would throw a weight limit on the rifles too, but that is me, but Open is Open.

Limited Class

This is what should replace the Tactical, Production, etc. Just have a limited class, you can call it a production rifle, but define it better. For me, I would say it's the barreled action. Any unmodified barreled action that is considered a production build rifle. Unfortunately, this would probably restriction the PVA Hancock or the BadRock Rifle, but I would focus on the barreled action.

Changing a stock or trigger will help some shooters move forward, but it's not a fundamental upgrade to switch out a production stock or trigger. It's all about the barrel to honest, but to be fair, I would say the barreled action. There would be no scope, trigger, or stock restriction.

The other component is factory ammunition. You have to use factory ammo.

I am changing my tune on the 308 stuff too because of the LE community, the fact they don't show up in any real numbers. So a division of 308 or 223 is not working out well. So have a limited class where the barreled action of the rifle cannot be modified. Factory action, factory barrel with factory ammo.

In the Limited Class, you have the same Amateur and Pro breakdown.

In my mind, if I was the League, I would have two different targets for each Division, a Pro Side and an Amateur side. The Pro Targets would be 2 MOA or Smaller the Amateur would be 2 MOA or bigger. In a perfect world, I want 4 targets at every yard line, a Big and Small or for the Pros, Medium and Small. Have a Red Side, Blue Side, Amateurs shoot Red, Pros Shoot Blue. This is where the series should be looking at events to meet a standard.

Youth Division

The Youth division is where you are gonna grow the sport. More focus should go into this. You can get pretty creative in a youth division, like having a set of 22 targets for a Youth .22 Division that is shot alongside the adults. How hard would it be to throw a few .22 targets inside 100 yards for kids? You can have parents shooting full stages then step up with their son or daughter while they shoot a few .22 shots.

You can break it down to AM & Pro but I am not sure it's necessary that way. However, if we have an age restriction, you will see kids shooting it for years.

Ladies Division,

I don't see this working out, I think we should acknowledge women who shoot, but I can't see an individual division at this moment in time. It's too limited. I do think it is worth it for individual events to recognize the top woman shooter of said event, but like the LE there is not enough to matter. This is coming from a guy who gave the first rifle to a Top Lady shooter in an event. The last big prize tables I did had guns for the Top Female Shooter. But their numbers still lag far behind. It's a coin toss here for me.

The idea is to make it easy to show up and not just jam someone in a box like the Production class does. Make it simple, just give them a basic guideline so they know, Open or Limited, AM or Pro, end of the story. It becomes consistent at every match, with no surprises, and easy to manage.


What gives someone an advantage over others,

Caliber
Handloads
Aftermarket Barrels

You can also limit gear in the limited class, one rear bag, one game-changer, one tripod, or no tripod, make the limited class truly limited to save money. Let a guy buy an AI AT, shoot factory ammo, and be in the limited division restricting other elements.

In terms of rifle systems, not much else beyond practice. A lighter trigger will help, but triggers are something that is the most basic upgrade path we have. Along with chassis today, you can have a guy buy a pretty inexpensive rifle and drop in a decent chassis with an upgraded trigger and take off pretty well in a limited division. It gives him or her a better idea of how to move to the next level. As long as they are not blueprinting or swapping out the barrel, every factory rifle now works in the limited division without an arbitrary restriction on dollar amount or scope. I can foresee a discussion on something like an AI AT Rifle which can easily change the barrel. Granted, how do you check barrels when they come with a factory Bartlein. Well, you can look at the factory markings, but more importantly factory ammo. We balance the equation here. But an AI AT should be a factory gun if a Defiance can be a Production one. Even then, if you want to call the Sub $2k rifle factory offerings, you still have the ammunition to balance out the equation.

What is lacking is consistency in the definitions and terminology, Why over complicate it, just simplify it, we have a long enough history to look at the trends now. What groups are stepping up, what roadblocks are in the way what rifle system as most common and what are people doing to them to upgrade? We can answer some basic questions to fine-tune the answer, unfortunately, all this is just an academic exercise cause I don't matter in this picture show.
 
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Dthomas3523

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I don’t know the finances behind it, but do companies like hornady and Berger make more profit off Bullets or loaded ammo?

I think having a division restricted to factory ammo would also help with ammo companies (federal, hornady, etc) having a bigger reason to take a look at sponsoring matches more than they already do.

I’d even be ok with “limited” allowing barrels and such (basically custom rifles), but limiting the gear, ammo, and rifle weight.
 

Rokfor2K

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About factory ammo. There is no limitation by factory ammo in any of shooting disciplines. USPSA, IPSC, 3GUN, NRA. The only thing that is considered - is power factor. You cannot limit people to use their own ammo, especially in USA. That wouldn’t be right.
 

Dthomas3523

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About factory ammo. There is no limitation by factory ammo in any of shooting disciplines. USPSA, IPSC, 3GUN, NRA. The only thing that is considered - is power factor. You cannot limit people to use their own ammo, especially in USA. That wouldn’t be right.
PRS is a unique situation where factory ammo is definitely good enough to hit the commonly sized target and but at the same time you can really tune up a rifle that other guys may not have time or money to do with handloads.

Guys obsessing over single digit SD’s in PRS skedaddled past diminishing returns a long time ago. It’s not mandatory to win matches where the average distance is ~600yds.

Also, it would be a voluntary class you participate in. No one is forcing it upon anyone.
 
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Rokfor2K

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PRS is a unique situation where factory ammo is definitely good enough to hit the commonly sized target and but at the same time you can really tune up a rifle that other guys may not have time or money to do with handloads.

Guys obsessing over single digit SD’s in PRS skedaddled past diminishing returns a long time ago. It’s not mandatory to win matches where the average distance is ~600yds.

Also, it would be a voluntary class you participate in. No one is forcing it upon anyone.
PRS is a unique situation where factory ammo is definitely good enough to hit the commonly sized target and but at the same time you can really tune up a rifle that other guys may not have time or money to do with handloads.

While
Guys obsessing over single digit SD’s in PRS skedaddled past diminishing returns a long time ago. It’s not mandatory to win matches where the average distance is ~600yds.

Also, it would be a voluntary class you participate in. No one is forcing it upon anyone.
While I would agree with some points, it is necessary to point that PRS is a technical sport as any shooting sport. You are responsible for your shooting tool and how it shoots. In any division the rifle can be tuned to some or no extent and be in a good condition. With different personal approach it makes a huge difference, but you cannot limit that. And loading is not only about accuracy. It has economy incites as well.
At 600 yards difference in factory and hand loaded ammo with same caliber and speeds (Which is about power factor) is not critical. It is mostly about skills, experience and other personal traits.
 

RoterJager

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I personally am not a fan of weight limits in Open. I'm all for it in limited.

There's ways to, for lack of a better term, penalize those of us with a heavy rifle. An off hand stage or straight up positional is probably the easiest. For the record, I have a gamer gun and an AXMC that comes in under 18lbs.

I like Mammoth's approach to weight, bring what you want but you carry it. Obviously that's not as much of a factor out here east with our square ranges.

On the flip side. Limited should be just that's. Limited. Stock BAs with weight and gear restrictions.


But as @lowlight alludes to, nothing changes until the respective series decide to make the changes on a large scale. I really like the idea of separating amateurs and pros. But until each series or one of them sees a direct benefit to changing things, we won't see any of the above suggestions from any of us become a reality.
 

Tx_Aggie

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PRS is a unique situation where factory ammo is definitely good enough to hit the commonly sized target and but at the same time you can really tune up a rifle that other guys may not have time or money to do with handloads.

Guys obsessing over single digit SD’s in PRS skedaddled past diminishing returns a long time ago. It’s not mandatory to win matches where the average distance is ~600yds.

Also, it would be a voluntary class you participate in. No one is forcing it upon anyone.

There are definitely advantages gained by handloading for pistol sports and 3-gun. Shooting factory 9mm vs someone's tuned handloads is often a night & day difference.
 
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Mordamer

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I want to see a weight limit on Open division rifles. I think a reasonable limit would be 18 pounds for rifle and scope. Open division doesn't have to be without limits. In fact, there are already quite a few limits in the rules. For example, velocity and caliber limits are imposed on open division rifles. I don't see a problem with establishing a few ground rules and letting the division be open for innovation inside of those rules.
 
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LawnMM

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Open should be open absent rules that actually make sense like caliber and velocity restrictions.

That's about not breaking targets or destroying them by burning holes in them at 3400fps. Has nothing to do with making the playing field fair or reasonable.

We don't need a Bible size rule book to improve upon things. I think the less rules in general, the better.

I do support breaking the field up into divisions. If you want to put weight limits on a rifle do it in 'limited' because that's what limited means.

If you don't like being beat by a guy with a heavy rifle, stay out of the open division. If somebody wants to lug around a heavy rifle, let them, who cares?

People constantly want to add rules to limit behavior they think gives somebody else the edge. I promise you aren't getting beat because Vibbert has a heavy rifle, it's because he's a good fuckin shot.

You're always going to be dealing with people looking for little advantages like higher BC bullets, heavier rifles, a stickier/more stable bag, whatever.

That behavior is going nowhere. Adding a bunch of dumb rules won't stop it or force people to make good wind calls or focus on the fundamentals instead of holding the plate edge.

Frank's discussing how to break up the field. I think from a common sense perspective, open is open, limited has limits. Simple enough.

If you want to force people not to tap the trigger with a heavy gun for an easy hit, I support that, but do it by forcing movement or a harder position shooting at a smaller target, not by adding rules.

Gamers will always game, that's never going to stop.
 

Mordamer

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If a competitor is willing to carry that weight and shoot it off hand, why limit it?
People are wheeling guns around in little carts. Some competitions you can drive to every stage. Some competitions the whole firing line is 150 yards long. For these reasons the "they have to carry all that weight" argument means nothing.

I watched a guy with a 28 inch truck axle barrel strap a scuba weight to his forend for every stage. He pushed a cart to every stage of the match. Haha.

It is just my opinion that this is a silly direction for the sport to go.

That match with the scuba weight guy was a 2 day pro PRS match. I won it with a 15 pound rifle/scope combo.

Allow me to respond to your question with one of my own. Why does a precision rifle need to weigh more than 18 lbs?

If the true answer is "to help compensate for a lack of fundamentals" or "to gain an advantage over everyone with a lighter weight gun" then lets evaluate if that is the road we want to go down. Where will that road take us?
 
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RoterJager

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Or MDs can start getting creative and add in an off hand stage or a couple stages with good amount of movement from position to position and the problem solves itself without burdensome rules that will take half a day to enforce, if they're enforceable at all.
 
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Mordamer

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Open should be open absent rules that actually make sense like caliber and velocity restrictions.

That's about not breaking targets or destroying them by burning holes in them at 3400fps. Has nothing to do with making the playing field fair or reasonable.

We don't need a Bible size rule book to improve upon things. I think the less rules in general, the better.

I do support breaking the field up into divisions. If you want to put weight limits on a rifle do it in 'limited' because that's what limited means.

If you don't like being beat by a guy with a heavy rifle, stay out of the open division. If somebody wants to lug around a heavy rifle, let them, who cares?

People constantly want to add rules to limit behavior they think gives somebody else the edge. I promise you aren't getting beat because Vibbert has a heavy rifle, it's because he's a good fuckin shot.

You're always going to be dealing with people looking for little advantages like higher BC bullets, heavier rifles, a stickier/more stable bag, whatever.

That behavior is going nowhere. Adding a bunch of dumb rules won't stop it or force people to make good wind calls or focus on the fundamentals instead of holding the plate edge.

Frank's discussing how to break up the field. I think from a common sense perspective, open is open, limited has limits. Simple enough.

If you want to force people not to tap the trigger with a heavy gun for an easy hit, I support that, but do it by forcing movement or a harder position shooting at a smaller target, not by adding rules.

Gamers will always game, that's never going to stop.
I disagree, and I don't see how a weight limit is a dumb rule. I simply have a different opinion of where the sport should go in the future.

I know when I try to get new competitors into the sport they are sometimes absolutely turned off by the incredibly impractical rifles they see at a competition. I don't like that.
 
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reubenski

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I want to see a weight limit on Open division rifles. I think a reasonable limit would be 18 pounds for rifle and scope. Open division doesn't have to be without limits. In fact, there are already quite a few limits in the rules. For example, velocity and caliber limits are imposed on open division rifles. I don't see a problem with establishing a few ground rules and letting the division be open for innovation inside of those rules.
Innovate... inside the box?
 

Tx_Aggie

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Or MDs can start getting creative and add in an off hand stage or a couple stages with good amount of movement from position to position and the problem solves itself without burdensome rules that will either take half a day to enforce, if they're enforceable at all.
This is a much more elegant solution than potentially making everyone weight their rifle and arguing over whether they're over weight by an ounce or two.

I've seen sling stages at local PRS matches, and I believe they're pretty much a staple in NRL22 (not sure about centerfire NRL, as there aren't any here on the East Coast).
 

reubenski

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People are wheeling guns around in little carts. Some competitions you can drive to every stage. Some competitions the whole firing line is 150 yards long. For these reasons the "they have to carry all that weight" argument means nothing.

I watched a guy with a 28 inch truck axle barrel strap a scuba weight to his forend for every stage. He pushed a cart to every stage of the match. Haha.

It is just my opinion that this is a silly direction for the sport to go.

That match with the scuba weight guy was a 2 day pro PRS match. I won it with a 15 pound rifle/scope combo.

Allow me to respond to your question with one of my own. Why does a precision rifle need to weigh more than 18 lbs?

If the true answer is "to help compensate for a lack of fundamentals" or "to gain an advantage over everyone with a lighter weight gun" then lets evaluate if that is the road we want to go down. Where will that road take us?
What makes you think the sport is going to go the way of scuba weights. You beat the guy apparently. So what does it matter. I see a lot of guys doing things I don't think are smart or the way I would do it.

So many peoples opinions about this stuff are just all about making things in their own image.
 

mmlook

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If a competitor is willing to carry that weight and shoot it off hand, why limit it?
agree, dont limit weight for limited.

do it like USPSA

Limited = No comps, brakes, or suppressors
so you have to balance between.
Rifle weight
Bullet weight/size
Good fundamentals

Pretty sure a 20lb rifle with no brake, will recoil more than a 15lb rifle with a brake
 

LawnMM

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People are wheeling guns around in little carts. Some competitions you can drive to every stage. Some competitions the whole firing line is 150 yards long. For these reasons the "they have to carry all that weight" argument means nothing.

I watched a guy with a 28 inch truck axle barrel strap a scuba weight to his forend for every stage. He pushed a cart to every stage of the match. Haha.

It is just my opinion that this is a silly direction for the sport to go.

That match with the scuba weight guy was a 2 day pro PRS match. I won it with a 15 pound rifle/scope combo.

Allow me to respond to your question with one of my own. Why does a precision rifle need to weigh more than 18 lbs?

If the true answer is "to help compensate for a lack of fundamentals" or "to gain an advantage over everyone with a lighter weight gun" then lets evaluate if that is the road we want to go down. Where will that road take us?
You sound like a Democrat. I don't like people with heavy rifles, so let's make a rule that nobody can have one.

I disagree, and I don't see how a weight limit is a dumb rule. I simply have a different opinion of where the sport should go in the future.

I know when I try to get new competitors into the sport they are sometimes absolutely turned off by the incredibly impractical rifles they see at a competition. I don't like that.
So let me get this straight. They are interested in competing, but when they see the setups successful people (and some unsuccessful too I'm sure) are using they're turned off?

And your solution is to change the behavior of everyone in the sport with rules that will take advantages away and artificially prop up the new guys?

Fuck that. Maybe they should get into Appleseed or something. I snicker at the guy with the little gear cart too, but I don't know him. Maybe he's got a bad back, or maybe he's a bitch, none of my business either way.

Again, you don't like somebody doing it different than you so you want rules to make them do it your way, that's Democrat 101.

If you won the match with your light rifle anyway why do you care? If anything they should be copying you, right?
 

mercracing

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Allow me to respond to your question with one of my own. Why does a precision rifle need to weigh more than 18 lbs?
My answer would be I don’t really care how much my rifle weighs, but once I get my barrel in I will want to add weights to get it to balance how I like it. Dunno if it will end up 15 or 35 pounds. Don’t care. Just want to make it balance how I like it.
 

LawnMM

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I don't love them, or hate them. The weight of your rifle has zero effect on me and my shooting, so that falls into the useless rules category. Simple as that.

You brought it up, then bragged that you won anyway, so it's a fair question... Why do you care?
 

Mordamer

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I don't love them, or hate them. The weight of your rifle has zero effect on me and my shooting, so that falls into the useless rules category. Simple as that.

You brought it up, then bragged that you won anyway, so it's a fair question... Why do you care?
I was making the point that the targets can be hit with a more practical weight rifle.

It is my opinion that there should be a weight limit imposed because I have observed rifles continuously trending heavier. I wonder where this trend will end.

Lowlight agrees. Ask him for his reasoning. I don't want to argue with you.
 
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LawnMM

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I'm asking what your issue is with the weight of somebody else's gun.

They're trending heavier, why do you care?

I know why he cares.
 

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30 pound rifle or 8 pound rifle, doesn’t matter. If it isn’t a field match and they want to carry it between positions in a golf cart, then whatever. That’s a level of shame they have to live with. If you can’t man-pack your equipment, then what’s the point (barring any physical disability obviously)?

Personally, if you want to play the precision game, then all games should be field-style. Move to your firing location, setup, find your target, range it, and fucking kill it. That encompasses every skill that’s required in long range precision shooting. If you’re a professional shooter, as in you receive a paycheck to carry a scoped optic, then there should be zero issue and you should be drooling at the opportunity to get the training/trigger time in. If you aren’t being paid to do it, then it’s a hobby and you should be excited about becoming better at something you do recreationally.

If it’s your profession, then who gives a fuck what the others enjoying their hobby are doing? You aren’t them and your opinion doesn’t matter.

If it’s a hobby, then who gives a fuck what the professionals are doing? You aren’t them and your option doesn’t matter.

It’s a god damn game that you voluntarily play in order to better your capabilities as an individual (and at times as a team) shooter. If you’re going to run a 50# rifle running a 2oz trigger and have it mounted in a lead sled while shooting 5,000fps, then fuck it, you do you boo-boo. You can have that 1st place spot. The Indian running an 8# arrow may or may overcome the handicap and pull a win...or maybe not. The real winner is the shooter that leaves a match, or any range session, and has added to their toolbox by learning something new. That’s the shooter who got the most out of their incurred expenses.

As for those who do it for titles and trophies, divide it up as you wish and put whatever rules in place you want. It’s a game. That’s what games do. However a division should be made for those new/amateur shooters who might feel intimidated by the whole thing. Who cares. Give them a division and recognition at a match as new shooters are the backbone of shooting sports.

The youth proposal is fuckin money and probably the best idea put forth in any of the threads. That would be fuckin awesome to do.

It would be cool to see events offer bare bones pricing (or waived fees) to LE/Mil Snipers who are actively serving in that billet (fuck contractor snipers though...they can work 1-2 days and pay for the entire trip..and then some lol). As far as providing proof/verification of active billeting, that’s another topic better handled by others actively serving. Despite it being (predominately) a collateral duty on the LE side, it’s 100% a volunteer-based profession. That being said, there are plenty of passionate dudes who have stepped up to the plate to do the job, but that doesn’t translate to disposable income and time off to travel/participate. Waived/bare bones entry fees may help boost the numbers of those who aren’t playing a game and do it as a salaried professional....especially those with smaller departments running on fume-based dept budgets. Hell, most departments and conventional Mil units would love nothing more than disbanding their sniper elements...let alone allotting them the logistical support to attend matches with department/battalion funds.

I don’t know. It’s a game. You get out of bed and play it or you don’t. Don’t cry when you lose and don’t boast when you win. It’s a game and there’s always someone better out there that is training harder than you and can crush you without breaking a sweat.

🍻

😘
 

NoLegs24

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LOL at weight limit on open class, Who gives a F* what other shooters regardless of class, rifle weighs. You’re not carrying it. I had a 26.5" Medium Palma (skinny AF) on an AI AX/ TT Combo, still weighed 20lbs..... I run a true truck axle 28" straight (no taper) 6x47L, straight 30" 6.5PRC's that I use for comps now. Cause Honey Badger don't care.

Limiting gear benefits the more experienced. Go shoot a 1 bag match against Matt B, Dave Preston or Jon Pynch.... good luck homie. The only way you can f* with shooters who like to using shopping cart worth of gear is, if you cut the times short. Make them question whether they want to use that tripod as rear support/ fumble with all that them bags. I did it at my NRL match last month. We took some ideas from Phil’s Gunwerks match. Deploy everything on the clock, gear within 1 arms distance. You leave gear back at the prop you just shot off, no points will be accumulated till you go back and grab it.

Only reason top dudes are seen using more than a bag on a stage is, it’s a game about getting the most points possible. When you have small targets that need to be hit at distance, shooting off an unstable prop, it’s bound to happen. There's dudes in country using tripods as rear support and large bags. Cause for them, f* trying to make the fight fair. They're going to try and make the most stable shot possible, to face f* someone...

The way I see is, it’s bragging rights when I beat the masses with 1 bag throughout the whole event though.

Off hand stages can go eat a dick. Fight me.....

Again, strictly run AI’s now, but if a guy is allowed to use an AI on limited class, then another competitor should be able to rock a custom gun at that point. Cause Win Tac is chambering Rifle’s off a CNC and using Bartlein’s. If that ain’t an advantage, idk what is LOL. And what happens when the barrel dies?

Having a PRO/ AM classifications would be huge though. That'll welcome these new shooters to see where they stack up against guys at their level. But IMO, I am competitive, I want to see how I stack up against the big boys. That'll push me to work harder.

I see it all too often with new guys, all will get smoked at the very first match they go to, whether a club level or National. A lot will quit cause of it, but you'll have those that will light a fire under them so that it doesn't happen again.

At the end of the day, no matter what rules or classifications, you will not make everyone happy. No one is forcing guys to shoot these 2 day matches. Stay at a club level for all I care.
Slots will be taken by shooters that are there whether to collect points, hang out with friends and have fun, support the MD, try out a new location etc. the list goes on and on.

And I'll keep repeating what Jacon Bynum said. It's just a rifle match...


... a f*ing rifle match......
 
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Sierra770

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They can divide it up however they like. I am still gonna show up with the same bags and dead calibers. It is my opinion, that even making the matches reduced or free won't bring LEOs to the competition arena in droves or significant numbers.
 

antithesis

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Total sideline opinion here since every time I have checked to see if a local match is happening they get cancelled (not enough shooters), and I won't travel for a match as a 'new shooter' because of the stuff I hear and read.

With that, competing against those that are likely to have a similar skill set is something that I think is missing. I don't really agree with going by the number of times someone has competed as being the best way to determine move-up. # of top X finishes over lifetime, lifetime points, something of that nature. At least that is what I see other sports that have both amateur (novice, intermediate, expert) and pro classes competing on the same course do. If you don't have enough shooters to make a "class" then combine groups. Should also consider a graybeard class for those that can't move as well as the younger crowd. The graybeards typically have money to burn on the sport which keeps businesses running, but competing against someone that can move around much better may be a reason to stay away.
 
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Sheldon N

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# of top X finishes over lifetime, lifetime points, something of that nature.
Couple years back in the PNW we had two divisions, don't remember the labels but essentially Am and Pro. Once you shot three total matches with a score of 80% or better, you got bumped up. I think that was a fair way to do it.
 

Crabcore

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The factory ammo restriction for limited makes a ton of sense. It is so simple and gets around so much nonsense associated with match shooting. I fear this will never happen.
 

Sierra770

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While the factory ammo limitation will make some difference, I am not convinced it will be as significant as many think.
 

LawnMM

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They can divide it up however they like. I am still gonna show up with the same bags and dead calibers. It is my opinion, that even making the matches reduced or free won't bring LEOs to the competition arena in droves or significant numbers.
You'll never get past the ego of SWAT guys and convince them to come get their ass handed to them by a farmer with a beer belly.

Lost cause.

Couple years back in the PNW we had two divisions, don't remember the labels but essentially Am and Pro. Once you shot three total matches with a score of 80% or better, you got bumped up. I think that was a fair way to do it.
I agree and have alluded to something similar. I think you could split it up <=33% / 34%-66% / 67%+ for beginner, intermediate, and expert/pro.

It's not the same, but as an example, with Mtn. Bike races, the experts/pros typically do the same course, the time is just harder.

You could keep the 120 second par times the NRL uses up through expert, have pros shoot the same targets in terms of size and distance but give them the PRS 90 second par time to do it.

And charge them a higher fee, maybe 500 instead of 250-300 and cash them out instead of walking the table.
 

missed

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I second the kids division. My boy wants to shoot them bad. Still not quite big enough to handle the 223 in this type of situation. But can handle the 22 well. Could even use the same stages and just have the 22lr targets a different color and close. Cost benefits of the kids 22 division is significant for me also.

As for the other divisions.....

Yeah open is open, exactly what it says.

As for the " factory division" factory barreled action and ammo, this sounds good. There is a hell of a difference from an average factory rifle, Remington, Salvage, Tikka (the kids have one that's awesome) to the AI that's still a factory gun, but I see them as custom level quality. I can get 3 PVA Hancock's for the cost of the AI AX. The " factory" division screws the lefties also, as many of the ~$1000-2000 range guns that I would consider viable for a match are unavailable in left hand.

Limited divisions, caliber and bullet weight restrictions. Limit support equipment during the stages. Have a points system where you earn so many points you move up, like novice limited, intermediate..... You wind up in the classes based on how you performed at previous matches. There is also a place to start. I personally don't have the time or resources available to chase the open guys. I would be a limited shooter for at least the next 10 years. I'd put my 308 barrel back on my Mausingfield and go have fun at a match.


Those that have issues with the heavy weight guns. Make the stages where you have to move a bunch, that will make some think about there 25lb rifle, tripod, heavy fill game changer, Numero Uno, and the Michelin man support suit there wearing.

These aren't field matches either, who cares if someone has a stroller, wagon, golf cart... To get stage to stage, your shooting the stages why would it be an issue how you get stage to stage.
 

JustSendit

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Well putting rules on an Open Class seems to contradict the very name. In the end you compete against the shooter and his equipment.

In my opinion the top shooters would beat the rest of the competitors with far less capable stuff. How many times do you see guys with meticulously handloaded 6BR and a 4K gun lose to someone who is shooting 6.5cm 147 ELDMs and a 2k rig? Or even worse to a guy blasting 308? Go ahead carry 15 bags and whatnot, still gotta hit targets that are seemingly getting ever smaller.

It’s really not the equipment that wins. We all know it.
 

jre0807

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So I'm that stroller/scuba weight wielding guy who shot with Mordamer at Reveille Peak(impressive win btw) who he is referring to. I have no shame that I reused my kids 600 dollar stroller that collects dust in the attic the other 364 days a year now that they've outgrown it. I'm not here to impress anyone or care what others think when they beat a amateur who forgets to load primers in all his ammo (definitely did that last match) or fails to make sure his scope is all tightened down before the match (definitely did that as well). But hey, I'm obviously an amateur and from my perspective, you professionals need new guys like me that don't care about score but willing to dump money into buying new, sometimes heavy rifles and unnecessary equipment so that I don't miss every target and come back instead of quitting. I'm glad to donate my $275/ match for a good time, opportunity to make a couple new friends, learn a few lessons the hard way, all while hitting a piece of steel 1000 yards away once or twice.

As for breaking the match up into divisions, I wouldn't. I might be a millennial, but we amateurs don't need a trophy saying I won against all the losers(although I do love trophy's and would gladly accept such a prize because unfortunately I'm still a millennial). Let us compete and get better and one day be included with you guys at the prize table. To me this will only ever be a fun hobby. If this gets over regulated, confusing, and not fun, expect a new ad in the PX titled "22lb losing rifle with 4lb scuba weight for sale".

Favorite quote of this thread "this is only a rifle match".

#firstpost
 

jsimonh

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I shoot because it's a hobby that I enjoy. I shot the NRL/BW series last year thinking it would be more "amateur" based and have guys like me. There were a few "pros" that dominated these one day matches but I enjoyed seeing where I ranked against those guys.

I dont personally want to see a amateur/pro division. Just do limited/open and something for the youth.

No Amateur, no production class, no LE, no womens.

Put weight and gear limitations on the limited class, and anything goes in the open. Easy enough.
 

Dthomas3523

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So I'm that stroller/scuba weight wielding guy who shot with Mordamer at Reveille Peak(impressive win btw) who he is referring to. I have no shame that I reused my kids 600 dollar stroller that collects dust in the attic the other 364 days a year now that they've outgrown it. I'm not here to impress anyone or care what others think when they beat a amateur who forgets to load primers in all his ammo (definitely did that last match) or fails to make sure his scope is all tightened down before the match (definitely did that as well). But hey, I'm obviously an amateur and from my perspective, you professionals need new guys like me that don't care about score but willing to dump money into buying new, sometimes heavy rifles and unnecessary equipment so that I don't miss every target and come back instead of quitting. I'm glad to donate my $275/ match for a good time, opportunity to make a couple new friends, learn a few lessons the hard way, all while hitting a piece of steel 1000 yards away once or twice.

As for breaking the match up into divisions, I wouldn't. I might be a millennial, but we amateurs don't need a trophy saying I won against all the losers(although I do love trophy's and would gladly accept such a prize because unfortunately I'm still a millennial). Let us compete and get better and one day be included with you guys at the prize table. To me this will only ever be a fun hobby. If this gets over regulated, confusing, and not fun, expect a new ad in the PX titled "22lb losing rifle with 4lb scuba weight for sale".

Favorite quote of this thread "this is only a rifle match".

#firstpost
How much for the stroller? I’m tired of carrying shit. 😎
 

Dthomas3523

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Total sideline opinion here since every time I have checked to see if a local match is happening they get cancelled (not enough shooters), and I won't travel for a match as a 'new shooter' because of the stuff I hear and read.

With that, competing against those that are likely to have a similar skill set is something that I think is missing. I don't really agree with going by the number of times someone has competed as being the best way to determine move-up. # of top X finishes over lifetime, lifetime points, something of that nature. At least that is what I see other sports that have both amateur (novice, intermediate, expert) and pro classes competing on the same course do. If you don't have enough shooters to make a "class" then combine groups. Should also consider a graybeard class for those that can't move as well as the younger crowd. The graybeards typically have money to burn on the sport which keeps businesses running, but competing against someone that can move around much better may be a reason to stay away.
Depending how far the travel is, I’d take a chance and try to make one. Especially if you can get a buddy or two to go.

The shit we all bitch about online really is only about 1% if stuff. The other 99% is all fun times.
 

Mordamer

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Depending how far the travel is, I’d take a chance and try to make one. Especially if you can get a buddy or two to go.

The shit we all bitch about online really is only about 1% if stuff. The other 99% is all fun times.
This is absolutely true. Regardless of all this online discussion, every match I go to is a great time.
 

lowlight

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In my mind the weight should be limited even in open, it's limited in other shooting sports, you have weight limits even in F Class Open

I would say 22LBS for Open and 18LBS for Limited, why because a Stock AI is close to 18LBS.

We have speed limits, caliber limits, etc, a weight limit in my mind would be without the scope, the scope is irrelevant to the situation.

It's a defined set of rules so everyone understands. 22lBS for a practical rifle sport is not limiting.

Open has to have guidelines as much as anything, rules matter. You'll see more innovation with the rules in place than without.

Remember you want to grow and add to the sport, in these cases perceptions matter, having no limits ruins the perception for a lot of people who want things defined up front.
 
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Sierra770

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In my mind the weight should be limited even in open, it's limited in other shooting sports, you have weight limits even in F Class Open

I would say 22LBS for Open and 18LBS for Limited, why because a Stock AI is close to 18LBS.

We have speed limits, caliber limits, etc, a weight limit in my mind would be without the scope, the scope is irrelevant to the situation.

It's a defined set of rules so everyone understands. 22lBS for a practical rifle sport is not limiting.

Open has to have guidelines as much as anything, rules matter. You'll see more innovation with the rules in place than without.
Exactly. Open should not be a free for all. I don’t like a ton of limitations, but guidelines that keep PRS/NRL in the practical/tactical genre is ok by me.

A little more stress and a little more movement wouldn't hurt either.
 
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Yoteski

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To me the Pro/Am thing is as simple as an entry fee. Raise the Pro's entry and they compete for a portion of that cash. This gets rid of all the prize table bullshit. You shoot Pro, you get cash and a trophy. Put your money where your mouth is.
Amateurs have a smaller entry fee and a random draw prize table. Maybe pull something nice off for the winner, but if you're not first, you're last. I'm tired of someone getting 10th and bitching about their prize.
I don't know when or why we established this $275 match fee. It's ridiculous to think you're going to get new shooters to pay that when there's so many good club matches at a fraction of the price. I get it, some matches are worth it because you get to ride in a helicopter or whatever, but alot of these big series matches are boringly vanilla with the exact same match fee.
It wouldn't surprise me one bit to see the bottom line increase for MD's if you lowered entry for Am's because of increased participation.
 

lowlight

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How you divide it up can be debated,

The point is, it's a path, it's a defined direction that everyone can understand. Nobody says an Amateur has to get a trophy, but you are supposed to be a series where people pay you to manage their score, and one would think to reward you for your effort based on that membership fee. I just think it provides a defined set of terms and goals.

I started the $275 match fee, the SHC did it, because I could. There were only about 6 matches a year and the biggest match was the Sniper's Hide Events at Rifles Only. We controlled the season. The fact the series and other matches continue to do the same thing we did in 2008 is their problem for not adapting. There was no reason for match fees to $275 other than I could command it. I had $300 events too back in the Day.

if I was running things, I would have scaled it much different in terms of dollars, and execution, but that is me, I am not running anything.

I would be doing things a lot different but I have no interest in running a series and more importantly, nobody is asking outside of my posting stuff on my website.
 

lowlight

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If you think about it, things actually get easier just doing a Pro /AM placement with Youth mixed in,

MD will know upfront, they need X number of trophies, you recognize 1st through 3rd in each and call it good.

I would charge Pro shooters more and reward money as they already have all the gear, and then give Amateurs a small prize table because they need gear. The youth are mixed in with the Amateurs at the prize table.

GIving Pros Money back is a better way of doing it, I would only reward the top 3 too, not 5


Personally go $250 for Pros and $150 for Amateurs, take the $100 and put it in a pot per Pro. One day matches can be $150 for pros and $75 for amateurs, although I get a lot of one-day matches will charge less, you can do $50 and $100 but it becomes consistent.
 

Tx_Aggie

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How would you enforce a weight limit on the rifle minus the scope? Make folks remove their scopes, weigh, then remount? Honor system?
 

Yoteski

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I guess the other thing I'd like to see is a number of standard stages/ranges at each pro series match. I.e. 10 stages with the same target size at the same distance with no more than X degree of angle of this standardized barricade or prone. Put two target sets out at each stage, one for pros and one for Am's; 1.5 moa and 3 moa or whatever is appropriate for the stage. The other 10 or 12 stages the MD could do whatever he/she wanted.
I think this standardized would go a long ways to finally being able to rank shooters. Also, it would level the playing field out for local/traveling shooters. Use the scores on those 10 stages throughout the year to rank shooters for their finale.