CF Barrels for ELR

Alpine 338

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Wondering if any of the ELR Folks are having success with CF Barrels. I know it's counter intuitive to go lighter in the ELR game, but asking to see if it's a viable option to reducing overall rifle weight to meet a certain weight class.
 

Esoteric Junkie

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If carbon wrapped barrels were so good everyone in the benchrest community would be using them. Step away away from the snake oil bottle!!!!!
 

badassgunworks

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If carbon wrapped barrels were so good everyone in the benchrest community would be using them. Step away away from the snake oil bottle!!!!!
well there is some truth to your statement but . perhaps no one is building one worthy of benchrest plus bench rest is looking for weights that are heavy so going lighter is not an option and makes no sence but for my application I need to reduce weight considering the full 2" barrel at 40" is 40 lbs for just the barrel alone less the 6.5 lb action, stock ,scope and hardware so I need to reduce weight so its my option choice why shoot a 2 " shank 10 " long with straight taper to 1.250 when I can shoot a core that is about the same wrapped up to 2" being way stiffer then what most use for elr. accuracy is not a issue with our carbon barrels we have 5 shot groups in the .100's all the time.
 

ubettcha

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well there is some truth to your statement but . perhaps no one is building one worthy of benchrest plus bench rest is looking for weights that are heavy so going lighter is not an option and makes no sence but for my application I need to reduce weight considering the full 2" barrel at 40" is 40 lbs for just the barrel alone less the 6.5 lb action, stock ,scope and hardware so I need to reduce weight so its my option choice why shoot a 2 " shank 10 " long with straight taper to 1.250 when I can shoot a core that is about the same wrapped up to 2" being way stiffer then what most use for elr. accuracy is not a issue with our carbon barrels we have 5 shot groups in the .100's all the time.
With the amount of powder being used in most elr rigs wouldn't the insulating properties of a carbon barrel become an issue?
On another note I've read alittle about the stress jacketing of barrels and another method that drilled holes parallel to the bore that reduced harmonics and weight while through convection improved cooling significantly. If I remember correctly you needed a 1.35 or larger muzzle dia (I'm sure it would be larger with the size bore your using) I can't seem to find the short video I saw on it to post. Have you seen or heard about this and is it applicable to you
 

badassgunworks

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barrel structuring I don't swallow the idea at least not yet. I know that carbon barrels work
I wont have a cooling issue and even of it gets hot you ever try to bend or warp 3/4" of carbon walls laminated laminated to a core that is the diameter of a Remington 700 barrel shank
 

THEIS

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Hi,

A few steps back in history shows us that oil cooling works :)

Sincerely,
Theis
 
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NomadEmbers

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I am using one for elr having 2 of them made now for the 420 blitzkrieg 2" diameter 10" long shanks 40" long to keep within the 50Lb weight limit barrel and action alone will be around the 30 lbs alone . carbon barrel will be the full 2" od when finished
Applied Ballistics did some research on various profiled steel barrels, SJB, and carbon barrels. (I’m not going to get into the details and caveats and turn this post into a novel.). What they found and what I interpreted was that carbon lended no advantage other than weight saving. Carbon dissipated heat quickly but also grt hot quickly. (I see that in my AR10 all the time. Barrel marriage is a bitch with my Proof Carbon barrel.) What was even more surprising, was when a weight was hung off the end of the barrels, the barrel with the most flex was carbon fiber. (One stainless spotter contour had the most flex but that’s not apples to apples when comparing similar contours.) Carbon typically had the most walking effect with high round strings. (Again not counting the stainless sportter contour.)

I say all that to come to to say this, AB was interested in what would happen if the carbon profile was larger. I, also, wonder if the benefit would come from much thicker contours than we would normally see. AB was wanting to test what would happen if you made a carbon barrel thick enough to match the weight of a heavy contour stainless barrel. I’d imagine that would be like a 4-6”(???) diameter carbon barrel to match the weight of a heavy stainless.

I find carbon barrels interesting. Especially for ELR since you don’t shot high round strings. I personally don’t like the barrel mirage I get from shooting 5-10 rounds out of my AR10 at 1 shot per 1-2 seconds for multiple strings. I just don’t see that kind of mirage out of stainless barrels. For context, I shoot in Arizona climate. I’d imagine cooler states might not have the same problems but that’s beyond my understanding.
 

badassgunworks

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Applied Ballistics did some research on various profiled steel barrels, SJB, and carbon barrels. (I’m not going to get into the details and caveats and turn this post into a novel.). What they found and what I interpreted was that carbon lended no advantage other than weight saving. Carbon dissipated heat quickly but also grt hot quickly. (I see that in my AR10 all the time. Barrel marriage is a bitch with my Proof Carbon barrel.) What was even more surprising, was when a weight was hung off the end of the barrels, the barrel with the most flex was carbon fiber. (One stainless spotter contour had the most flex but that’s not apples to apples when comparing similar contours.) Carbon typically had the most walking effect with high round strings. (Again not counting the stainless sportter contour.)

I say all that to come to to say this, AB was interested in what would happen if the carbon profile was larger. I, also, wonder if the benefit would come from much thicker contours than we would normally see. AB was wanting to test what would happen if you made a carbon barrel thick enough to match the weight of a heavy contour stainless barrel. I’d imagine that would be like a 4-6”(???) diameter carbon barrel to match the weight of a heavy stainless.

I find carbon barrels interesting. Especially for ELR since you don’t shot high round strings. I personally don’t like the barrel mirage I get from shooting 5-10 rounds out of my AR10 at 1 shot per 1-2 seconds for multiple strings. I just don’t see that kind of mirage out of stainless barrels. For context, I shoot in Arizona climate. I’d imagine cooler states might not have the same problems but that’s beyond my understanding.[/QUOTE


what AB thinks to me holds very little water in reguards to testing carbon barrels considering that they most likely used a proof barrel . proofs carbon tow prosess does very little to solve flex our prosess is way different and has no flex plus I am sure that what ever barrel ab used did not have a 1.250 diameter steel core then wrapped with carbon back up to 2" straight full length it will be way stiffer then what 99 % of the people in elr are using plus marriage is not a problem of you use a guard like in f class
 

NomadEmbers

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Not sure if you can read but I did put that AB was interested in what would happen with a larger carbon contour. They like testing things and I’m willing to bet they’d test those said barrels.

I’m not sure they care what amount of water will hold with you. Who are you again.
 

THEIS

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Applied Ballistics did some research on various profiled steel barrels, SJB, and carbon barrels. (I’m not going to get into the details and caveats and turn this post into a novel.). What they found and what I interpreted was that carbon lended no advantage other than weight saving. Carbon dissipated heat quickly but also grt hot quickly. (I see that in my AR10 all the time. Barrel marriage is a bitch with my Proof Carbon barrel.) What was even more surprising, was when a weight was hung off the end of the barrels, the barrel with the most flex was carbon fiber. (One stainless spotter contour had the most flex but that’s not apples to apples when comparing similar contours.) Carbon typically had the most walking effect with high round strings. (Again not counting the stainless sportter contour.)

I say all that to come to to say this, AB was interested in what would happen if the carbon profile was larger. I, also, wonder if the benefit would come from much thicker contours than we would normally see. AB was wanting to test what would happen if you made a carbon barrel thick enough to match the weight of a heavy contour stainless barrel. I’d imagine that would be like a 4-6”(???) diameter carbon barrel to match the weight of a heavy stainless.

I find carbon barrels interesting. Especially for ELR since you don’t shot high round strings. I personally don’t like the barrel mirage I get from shooting 5-10 rounds out of my AR10 at 1 shot per 1-2 seconds for multiple strings. I just don’t see that kind of mirage out of stainless barrels. For context, I shoot in Arizona climate. I’d imagine cooler states might not have the same problems but that’s beyond my understanding.
Hi,

@NomadEmbers

The below quote comes to mind when reading your above quote :)

Sincerely,
Theis


Let me rant for a second. I said I can’t speak for other solvers. But let’s ignore that and talk about some deception.

I’ve been reading AB books lately and there’s a prevailing theme amongst two of the books I’ve completed so far: As of this writing or to my knowledge, AB’s engine is the only software accounting for this. Or AB engine is the only software back by a ballistician. Forget the context. Every second or third chapter, the theme is we’re the only ones accounting for this. From my perspective, to my knowledge, it all sounded legit.

Looking back, the books while providing good information, was more so marketing for AB & Berger. I’m kind of pissed about it.


And how the hell is it 3DOF when they spend countless chapters discussing the effects of 6DOF. Surely there’s a mistake.
 

Lynn Jr

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Exactly my point.
It is hard to make 10.5 pounds and if the wrapped barrels shot as good they would be popular but they are not.
 
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flyright

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Any information on the barrel life of CF vs steel barrels. I'd read somewhere (maybe it was just theorized) that due to the insulating properties of CF, the barrel would hold more heat and burn out faster in sports with longer shot strings. I haven't seen anything conclusive but I would think the PRS guys would know. Not to de rail - since it would probably not be a factor in ELR.
 
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badassgunworks

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Exactly my point.
It is hard to make 10.5 pounds and if the wrapped barrels shot as good they would be popular but they are not.
the typical carbon barrel company makes barrels with only one thing on mind . weigh reduction . this thought is the primary reason that the typical carbon barrel has issues. when a carbon barrel company designs a barrel with accuracy in mind first then the out come is different the prosess by defalt will weigh less then a steel barrel of the same diamiter so why focus on just weight reduction. designing a bullet that looks cool but wont fly worth a shit is stupid , so why design a carbon barrel with the same mind set.
 
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NomadEmbers

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the typical carbon barrel company makes barrels with only one thing on mind . weigh reduction . this thought is the primary reason that the typical carbon barrel has issues. when a carbon barrel company designs a barrel with accuracy in mind first then the out come is different the prosess by defalt will weigh less then a steel barrel of the same diamiter so why focus on just weight reduction. designing a bullet that looks cool but wont fly worth a shit is stupid , so why design a carbon barrel with the same mind set.
Your barrels are essentially a heavy barrel wrapped with carbon. I like that idea. I think it’s interesting. I don’t think the market would care for it.

How much does a barrel blank run?
 

Ledzep

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I disagree that the only goal is to cut weight. If that was the goal, why put the CF on there? They're cutting weight while trying to retain as much accuracy and stiffness as possible.

Hunting, 3 gun, even PRS, the level of accuracy in Proof barrels is more than enough to stay competitive at the highest levels. ELR or benchrest, I don't think so as much. The Proof's that I've shot were capable of well under 3/4 MOA for 5-shot groups. 3/8-5/8 I'd say. I have never experienced wandering with heat, never experienced RTZ issues, zero wander, etc... I have only had mirage come off of the barrel once that I noticed up here in SD. In fact my experience is directly opposite that of the earlier poster-- I was surprised how little mirage ever comes off of it.

My experience with Christensen is that accuracy was in the 3/4-1.5 MOA range. I was less than impressed.

With Proof you get slightly less accuracy on average, higher cost, lighter weight for the diameter and better stiffness for the weight vs steel, and retain enough diameter at the muzzle for threads. Personal opinion is that it's probably not the best route for ELR or any other "ultra-precision" shooting.
 

badassgunworks

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I disagree that the only goal is to cut weight. If that was the goal, why put the CF on there? They're cutting weight while trying to retain as much accuracy and stiffness as possible.

Hunting, 3 gun, even PRS, the level of accuracy in Proof barrels is more than enough to stay competitive at the highest levels. ELR or benchrest, I don't think so as much. The Proof's that I've shot were capable of well under 3/4 MOA for 5-shot groups. 3/8-5/8 I'd say. I have never experienced wandering with heat, never experienced RTZ issues, zero wander, etc... I have only had mirage come off of the barrel once that I noticed up here in SD. In fact my experience is directly opposite that of the earlier poster-- I was surprised how little mirage ever comes off of it.

My experience with Christensen is that accuracy was in the 3/4-1.5 MOA range. I was less than impressed.

With Proof you get slightly less accuracy on average, higher cost, lighter weight for the diameter and better stiffness for the weight vs steel, and retain enough diameter at the muzzle for threads. Personal opinion is that it's probably not the best route for ELR or any other "ultra-precision" shooting.
the only reason that its not the best for comp shooting is cause its not built with optimum accuracy in mind all of my carbon barrles shoot sub 1/4 moa amd many of them in the .100's the goal has always been about weight reduction if that was not the case just shoot a varmet conture steel barrel
 

Lynn Jr

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The Carbon Fiber barrels start out like a regular barrel then most of the metal gets removed to save weight. When the material is removed the bore opens up.
I don't know how they compensate for this or if they compensate for this but you don't see these barrels on the Benchrest line
It could be that they shoot well enough to win but the Benchrest crowd is too cheap to use them but given the amount of crying that takes place over weight restrictions I don't see that as a issue.
 

Milo 2.5

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@ Alpine 338, is this for Qcreek or a Ko2m type event? Where and how does the weight saving aspect come into play?
I built a Dasher with a Proof, one with a HH too. A lot of myths were busted with the Proof, whether real or perceived in my head. We've warmed it up a couple times, and it has held surprisingly well. But in my head, there has to be a big difference shooting 31gr of powder to 95-140gr. And I'm not with led zep on mirage, I've seen plenty coming off this one non suppressed.
I bought the Proof for aesthetics and weight savings. These ELR rifles do not need to look like a Ferrari, and I'd have a harder time paying 300 more for a blank to fire 1100 rds.
Edit: I think barrel hop alone would be a major distraction.
 
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Milo 2.5

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The Carbon Fiber barrels start out like a regular barrel then most of the metal gets removed to save weight. When the material is removed the bore opens up.
I don't know how they compensate for this or if they compensate for this but you don't see these barrels on the Benchrest line
It could be that they shoot well enough to win but the Benchrest crowd is too cheap to use them but given the amount of crying that takes place over weight restrictions I don't see that as a issue.
There was a post on Accurate shooter about CF barrels, turned into one big shitshow. Not one person said they had tried CF and said it worked or otherwise. A lot of conjecture from both sides, it was mentioned Proof never claimed their barrels were specifically made for BR. Logic alone says a 3.8lb barrel wont stay in tune compared to a properly stress relieved truck axle barrel during longer strings of fire.
Also, it would make no sense to compete with a 10.5lb gun when the guys next to you are shooting 13.9lb guns. They manage recoil in a way diff fashion than our crowd does, it's weight out front.
IMO, it's unfair bringing BR shooting into this debate.
 
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Lynn Jr

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In 10.5 pound class you won't be shooting next to a 13.9 pound rifle.
The only reason Benchrest is mentioned is because it shows the accuracy capability of the barrel.
If your starting a build with weight restrictions in place and CF is the only way to get there you have painted yourself into a corner.
This is just my opinion.
Now if I was planning a sheep hunt at high altitude my opinion might change.
 
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Ledzep

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And I'm not with led zep on mirage, I've seen plenty coming off this one non suppressed.
I thought you guys had wind over there to blow the mirage off... :)

It may be that I rarely shoot long strings with it. The only time I've had them hot enough it was uncomfortable to hold was in a PRS match. It seemed to me that 10 rounds out of a steel barrel and I had mirage very rapidly, where the CF surface temp didn't seem to get as hot (Worth pointing out that rem-varmint is as heavy as I go with steel. My 6.5cm is a #4 contour... I'm a little guy, no need big heavy rifle lol). Now if you get it hot enough to show mirage for you, I can see it taking forever to calm down vs. steel... but it's the same old heat exchange trade-off that's always been there.
 

Milo 2.5

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In 10.5 pound class you won't be shooting next to a 13.9 pound rifle.
The only reason Benchrest is mentioned is because it shows the accuracy capability of the barrel.
If your starting a build with weight restrictions in place and CF is the only way to get there you have painted yourself into a corner.
This is just my opinion.
Now if I was planning a sheep hunt at high altitude my opinion might change.
Oh, I thought light gun was 14lbs. I recall a varmint class that was less, but that is not the class most records come from.
 

Milo 2.5

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I thought you guys had wind over there to blow the mirage off... :)

It may be that I rarely shoot long strings with it. The only time I've had them hot enough it was uncomfortable to hold was in a PRS match. It seemed to me that 10 rounds out of a steel barrel and I had mirage very rapidly, where the CF surface temp didn't seem to get as hot (Worth pointing out that rem-varmint is as heavy as I go with steel. My 6.5cm is a #4 contour... I'm a little guy, no need big heavy rifle lol). Now if you get it hot enough to show mirage for you, I can see it taking forever to calm down vs. steel... but it's the same old heat exchange trade-off that's always been there.
I think barrel mirage dissipates faster with CF, not saying total barrel heat does though, I have no way of measuring that.
 

NomadEmbers

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There was a post on Accurate shooter about CF barrels, turned into one big shitshow. Not one person said they had tried CF and said it worked or otherwise. A lot of conjecture from both sides, it was mentioned Proof never claimed their barrels were specifically made for BR. Logic alone says a 3.8lb barrel wont stay in tune compared to a properly stress relieved truck axle barrel during longer strings of fire.
Also, it would make no sense to compete with a 10.5lb gun when the guys next to you are shooting 13.9lb guns. They manage recoil in a way diff fashion than our crowd does, it's weight out front.
IMO, it's unfair bringing BR shooting into this debate.
My favorite part of discussion is when people don’t actually have experience with said product. Like all the people getting hyped for the new products at SHOT. Giving people advice to buy said new products that’s never been tested.
 

Lynn Jr

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I was actually offered a free barrel when CF was first coming out. I declined the offer because the manufacturer wanted to read the report before I submitted it.
One of the gunsmiths I use says success is around 50% loving them and the other 50% hating them
 
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Milo 2.5

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One of the gunsmiths I use says success is around 50% loving them and the other 50% hating them
I don't doubt this, but I've read success ratio way higher now that they are established. The barrel I have had an inclusion 5" in that was shedding copper bad. 3rd cleaning, I took some JB to it and it went away w/o harming accuracy. But that is by no means a CF exclusive, I've had worse ss barrels.
 

Tchitcherine

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The Carbon Fiber barrels start out like a regular barrel then most of the metal gets removed to save weight. When the material is removed the bore opens up.
I don't know how they compensate for this or if they compensate for this but you don't see these barrels on the Benchrest line
It could be that they shoot well enough to win but the Benchrest crowd is too cheap to use them but given the amount of crying that takes place over weight restrictions I don't see that as a issue.
That's interesting. What causes the bore to open up? Has the amount been quantified? Thanks.
 

Lynn Jr

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Anytime you take metal off the outside of a barrel the inside opens up. It usually gets discussed when guys are using muzzlebrakes or profiling a fat barrel into a slender barrel or fluting.
I have been outside of the extreme accuracy game for about 6 years now but nothing should have changed.
 

Ledzep

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Anytime you take metal off the outside of a barrel the inside opens up. It usually gets discussed when guys are using muzzlebrakes or profiling a fat barrel into a slender barrel or fluting.
I have been outside of the extreme accuracy game for about 6 years now but nothing should have changed.
Not necessarily.

Un-touched dimensions on parts only change after material removal if there was stress present in the part before material was removed. Most all of the accounts of bores opening up because of cutting the profile down are the result of pent-up hoop stress remaining after BUTTON rifling. Even this stress, however, can be minimized to the point of being negligible by proper stress relief (Benchmark barrels, for example, are button rifled, but will never show the bell-mouthing from cutting muzzle threads that a Green Mountain blank will). The same concerns exist for fluting button-rifled barrels.

Single-point cut rifling does not induce any meaningful stress into the material because it's cutting material away with a sharp cutter, not displacing it like a button.
 
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Ledzep

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It should also be added, that wound barrels (Proof Research), work to fight any bore expansion. The wrapping provides hoop stress constricting around the stainless bore.
 
With the amount of powder being used in most elr rigs wouldn't the insulating properties of a carbon barrel become an issue?
On another note I've read alittle about the stress jacketing of barrels and another method that drilled holes parallel to the bore that reduced harmonics and weight while through convection improved cooling significantly. If I remember correctly you needed a 1.35 or larger muzzle dia (I'm sure it would be larger with the size bore your using) I can't seem to find the short video I saw on it to post. Have you seen or heard about this and is it applicable to you
Yep, the company I work for makes those structured barrels. www.tacomhq.com.
Obviously, I'm biased, but I won't lie to you either. They just work, man. Exhaustive 3rd party testing is being done at this time, and so far, it's yielding better results than we initially expected.
I'll be incredibly surprised if I don't see at least one or two shooters with them come King of 2 Miles this July. As far as weight per stiffness AND prolonged barrel life (entire barrel is a heat sink) you can't beat it.
 

IntoTransonic

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Team JJ Rock will be using Proof Resesrch Carbon Fiber Barrels this year in a number of ELR matches including KO2M, South Georgia ELR, WLSC and the Q creek event.

Good Luck and great shooting
Chris Schmidt
IG: chrisschmidt_elr
Team JJ Rock

2507471A-6A1A-4802-B318-B10D2F49FD95.jpeg
 

badassgunworks

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Not sure if you can read but I did put that AB was interested in what would happen with a larger carbon contour. They like testing things and I’m willing to bet they’d test those said barrels.

I’m not sure they care what amount of water will hold with you. Who are you again.
Trust me the guys at AB know who I am Very well. I do my own research. cause you don't know who I am is not relevant.
 

Dave Garrett

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The most accurate rifle in my house is a 300 win mag with a CA Sendero CW barrel... This gun will almost shot one hole at 100 yards .. Gun was also just to easy to do load work on as everything we tried just shot well.. The main consensus is that proof are better barrels overall... My next build i am going to try a Proof as CA hasn't had any barrels available for a while now..Pics of rifle, 100 yard 3 shot and 804 yard using up rest of ammo from load testing.... Dave
 

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THEIS

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Trust me the guys at AB know who I am Very well. I do my own research. cause you don't know who I am is not relevant.
Hi,

That reminded me of someones signature from here years and years ago....

"It does not matter how many numbers you have to people in the industry, but rather how many people in the industry have your number."

Sincerely,
Theis