Caliber Choices - Comparison and Applications

sandwarrior

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... i dont care about the first post either to be honest. I wasnt planning on posting until i seen the 6.5 catches the 300 win mag quickly statement and having used both extensively, and knowign the basic ballistics of both i have to disagree. But then you went to the "ammo shelf comparision" and comparing high bc 6.5 bullets to low BC 30 cal bullets ...
This is called HIGHJACKING a thread. Go back and read the first post and follow instructions. And consider the context and time frame of the post. The original post goes back in time to when there were ZERO high BC bullets in .300 Win mags. on the shelf. If you had read the first post you would know that’s an issue. But you’d rather just come on and argue.
Post something of value or get off the thread.
 

STI_1911_Guy

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This is called HIGHJACKING a thread. Go back and read the first post and follow instructions. And consider the context and time frame of the post. The original post goes back in time to when there were ZERO high BC bullets in .300 Win mags. on the shelf. If you had read the first post you would know that’s an issue. But you’d rather just come on and argue.
Post something of value or get off the thread.
I agree I did but only to prevent false info from spreading that’s why I picked on that one statement because that’s the only thing that was bullshit. Preventing people from believing and spreading that was my contribution, thats all.
 

sandwarrior

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So, as far as long range, this doesn't really apply so much, but for certain applications it's a pretty cool round...

The .25-20 WCF. I've been playing with micro rounds for a while now and find them pretty interesting as to how much you can get out of them. Especially older ones when coupled with modern components. This cartridge started in 1889 as a black powder cartridge, but lent itself well to the smokeless conversion. I tested everything in a Savage 23B dated from aroun 1926. It started life as a Marlin round with the 1889 Marlin being chambered for it. Somehow or other Winchester got it and called it the .25-20 WCF. The most common chambering is in the 1892 Winchester lever action.

Plus's,
Cheap to reload for,
Bullets that will fit are common.
Weapons for it are very light
Has about .22LR recoil (more but you barely feel it)
Works well as a long range small critter gun.
The big advantage: When loaded to original velocities, it is Extremely quiet! No suppressor added. ;)
Less noise and will push a 60 gr. bullet out to 2500 fps. More if you want, but I suggest that as a stopping point.

Minus's
Ammo must be ordered and it isn't cheap. Reloading is where you save.
Brass is harder to find than ammo, So my first 40 cases were from ammo I bought.
"Fit" and "work" are two different things with this cartridge. While 85 gr. spitzers "work", they don't fit my magazine. My rifle requires a round nose to "fit". Without a soft tip, or round nose. you can't load multiple cartridges in a tube magazine. So, with many modern bullets that will "work", single feeding is mandatory.
Need a special die to neck down the parent case, 32-20 WCF. Which is easy to find.
Finding a firearm is a matter of luck running across one in an old gun store. They aren't that common.
Usually, the firearm is expensive. Winchester made them in 1892 lever, Savage in the 23B. Often, the magazines go for what a model 23 rifle will go for.

Anyhow, it's a great round to go plinking with and if you want to extend your kill energy over a .22LR or mag, this round is the ticket.
One item of note about this cartridge is, it was the cartridge used to kill the Jordan Buck. At that time, and until the Iowa buck was killed, it was the largest whitetail ever killed in the U.S. While not legal in any state for deer (at this writing), nor do I recomend it ever, that's a pretty good argument for shot placement over power. Take that you .300 mag fags. All that gun and you still can't kill the big deer.
 
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Aggie

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I’d like to hears users comments in more detail on two calibers.

6mm Creedmoor

6.5X55 Swedish

Both have a following.
 

PracticalTactical

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Seems to me that caliber discussion alone is not enough...

I'll offer a couple examples of what I mean...

I've shot F-Class for about 20 years and have problems ejecting live 308 rounds from a Rem 700 short action, because the barrel is throated long so I can seat the 185 Berger Jugs out as far as possible.... that being longer than the ejection port. In retrospect I should have used a long action for this 308, which I didn't consider at the time I started putting the rifle together. I also cannot run from a magazine, not that I would in F-Class but I could use the same rifle for other things.

Same story with 223... I have a Sako 75 with a mag length of about 2.300" but the 80 grain SMKs are seated to more like 2.600 OAL for max case capacity... that means they wont feed from a mag and I cannot eject a live round. Now I'm building a new rifle using a Defiance Deviant Tactical action for 223, just so I can run AICS pattern mags and feed from a mag with my long 223 rounds.

Another key point to all of this is the huge medium to long range performance difference between the 308 and 223 how I'm loading them compared to the SAMMI spec version of said rounds.
 

Aggie

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The .308 while not a COOL DESIGNER CARTRIDGE has gotten the job done accurately and reliably since the 1960s. It is a good accurate round if you how to use it.
 

PracticalTactical

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In the context of F-Class competition it is not uncommon for the 308 scores to be higher than the F-Open scores. Not so typically in the Grand Aggregate, but frequent enough in individual stages.

It's easy for a ballistics junky to get caught up in BCs and muzzle velocities, but the difference between most good medium sized calibers is found mainly in competition and under the specific weather conditions at the time of the match.

A buddy of mine, Bob the Viper ran a 6.5-06 Ackley Improved of sorts for as long as I've known him and by all accounts, I should never have beat his scores with a 308... but somehow or another I did every now and then.... At the stage level anyway, but not the agg.

If I recall Bob needed something like 18 minutes up from a 100 yard zero for 1000 yards while I was around 36 minutes. By that measurement I should never have gotten close really. So much for arithmetic.

Theoretically... Where Bob would undoubtedly have blown me away would be past 1000 yards when the 308 would drop into the transonic range and accuracy would degrade rapidly, where I'll bet Bob's load would have been supersonic well past 1500 yards.
 
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sandwarrior

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In the context of F-Class competition it is not uncommon for the 308 scores to be higher than the F-Open scores. Not so typically in the Grand Aggregate, but frequent enough in individual stages.

It's easy for a ballistics junky to get caught up in BCs and muzzle velocities, but the difference between most good medium sized calibers is found mainly in competition and under the specific weather conditions at the time of the match.

A buddy of mine, Bob the Viper ran a 6.5-06 Ackley Improved of sorts for as long as I've known him and by all accounts, I should never have beat his scores with a 308... but somehow or another I did every now and then.... At the stage level anyway, but not the agg.

If I recall Bob needed something like 18 minutes up from a 100 yard zero for 1000 yards while I was around 36 minutes. By that measurement I should never have gotten close really. So much for arithmetic.

Theoretically... Where Bob would undoubtedly have blown me away would be past 1000 yards when the 308 would drop into the transonic range and accuracy would degrade rapidly, where I'll bet Bob's load would have been supersonic well past 1500 yards.
No body is winning anything with .308 anymore unless it’s in a .308 only competition. It’s not that it’s a terrible round, it’s that the diameter does not lend itself as well as a smaller diameter bullet to shaping it aerodynamically and keeping it at a weight it can be launched fast enough to do some good. In short, it’s the fat kid at the track meet.

This thread is about a cartridge you would choose and why. It’s supposed to explain it in a single post.

If you go back to the first post you’ll see that. If you read further, you will also see that the .308 has several posts regarding the cartridge.
 
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sandwarrior

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I should point out too, that while the .308 caliber isn’t in the winners circle that much anymore, there has been a whole slough of newer .30 cal bullets that bridge the gap of old .308” bullets to newer smaller diameter bulliets.

Where the transonic realm used to be the boundary for .30 cal., that is no longer the case. They won’t get there as fast, but they do get there. You don’t need to change from a .308 if that’s what you are shooting. Unless, you need the competitive edge that it won’t give you.
 

slimJim2000

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I am sure a .308 loaded longer then mag length, and loaded into the chamber single shot with a barrel setup for the new longer bullets can do reasonable well, however it kind of defeats the reason for having a .308 in the first place.
 

PracticalTactical

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I've had problems with my 308 in F Class with 185 Berger Juggernauts seated long... with a long throat chamber...

I cannot eject a live round without partially removing the bolt.

If a guy wants to run from a mag with a 308 these days I would suggest basing the build on a long action so the long round could feed from a mag and to eject the darn thing.

I just built a 223 on a Defiance action for the same reason... so I can run 80 grainers stuck out as far as possible and feed from AI mags.

There's actually a ballistic advantage to the 223 over 308 within PRS rules, since the 223 max velocity is 3000 FPS but only 2800 FPS for 308. Not that I can hit 3000 with a 77 grain bullet, but I can get 2900 easy.

To my surprise Ruger stopped producing the RPR in 223, which as far as I know was the only factory produced 223 capable of running 2.5" long rounds from a 223. I thought that rifle should have been their best selling model personally.
 
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sandwarrior

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I've had problems with my 308 in F Class with 185 Berger Juggernauts seated long... with a long throat chamber...

I cannot eject a live round without partially removing the bolt.

If a guy wants to run from a mag with a 308 these days I would suggest basing the build on a long action so the long round could feed from a mag and to eject the darn thing.

I just built a 223 on a Defiance action for the same reason... so I can run 80 grainers stuck out as far as possible and feed from AI mags.

There's actually a ballistic advantage to the 223 over 308 within PRS rules, since the 223 max velocity is 3000 FPS but only 2800 FPS for 308. Not that I can hit 3000 with a 77 grain bullet, but I can get 2900 easy.

To my surprise Ruger stopped producing the RPR in 223, which as far as I know was the only factory produced 223 capable of running 2.5" long rounds from a 223. I thought that rifle should have been their best selling model personally.
Agreed, it gets frustrating when you and I can see what needs doing, yets the whole rest of the gun world is saying that's the way we've always done it. So, changes either never get made , or they go away like the RPR because no one likes the change. My favorite, that sends me into brain spins, is some one saying, "That's just stupid., there's no need for that!"
 
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Aggie

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Caliber discussions are always interesting. Each is optimized for a particular purpose.