7mm Creedmoor

Hondo1

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Is there any recent data/experience out there on the 7mm Creedmoor? All of the information I have found is a couple of years old, I’m curious if it’s no longer talked about because of better options of some other reason.
I recently bought a Fix by Q, purpose of the rifle for me is hunting and just an all around fun rifle to shoot. No comps with this rifle. Having said that I’m stuck in the confines of a sr25 pattern magazine. Seems like the 7mm Creedmoor shooting 162’s would be the perfect option.

Thoughts?

Also reamer recommendations?

Thanks
 

CanSniper

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I have been running one for about 3 years. Several thousand rounds down the tube. I love the round. Super easy load development. And always consistent. 162 eldm @ 2820fps, ain't no slouch. Wish someone made brass, but not that big of a deal.
 
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Jackomason

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Just stopped by our of curiosity... but holy cow! 2820fps? My 7mm rem mag is pushing the 162eldx at 2940 out of a 24" barrel. That's gotta be running close to %30 less powder for 120fps drop in velocity.

I guess that would change a lot of views on the .280 rem

Good stuff, I'm even more curious about what others have to say but it sounds like it should be a bigger contender than it is.
 

domdoc

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28" barrel will do it. I am waiting for the 7 Creedmoor to be mainstreamed. I really think DARPA should have foreseen the rapid barrel wear and throat erosion with 6.5 Creedmoor, compared to .308 Win, and "invented" the 7 CM on their own. Not very far-sighted. Hornady? Dave? Recoil will still be higher, but the plan is to change the caliber for better range, so 7 mm would seem to be the answer. Heck, they could just have gone straight to 7-08, and done blessed little evaluation. That can push a 168 JLK to 1,400 yards supersonic. 7-08 would also feed better, especially in gas guns. C'mon!
 

flyer

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I want to see what happens when the 6.5 PRC case gets necked up to 7mm and loaded with 180 grain class bullets.

Those guys at FN were on to something back in the 1950s...
 

flyer

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I would need to look at a chamber drawing but the PRC doesn't have a rebated rim and would fit in a short action I believe. I think .284 is a bit long for that, I'm not sure.
 

308pirate

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I would need to look at a chamber drawing but the PRC doesn't have a rebated rim and would fit in a short action I believe. I think .284 is a bit long for that, I'm not sure.
Just curious about what would be gained with a 7 PRC over a 284 Win.

Not really sure what the issue is with having a rebated rim, other than it's not "normal" to most people's eyes. It doesn't compromise case head strength as far as I can tell. As long as the case extracts, what else matters?

The 284 Win will definitely fit inside a short action (that's what it was designed for) but the case OAL is about .1" longer than a 308 case so bullet intrusion into powder space is a bit of an issue. Still, if you can achieve the desired MV without pressure problems, is it really a problem?
 

nick338

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6.5 PRC has a case length of 2.035 and 284 Win is 2.170
6.5 PRC has a base diameter of .532 and 284 Win is .501

Now if we had a case that was 2.170 long with .532 base that would be interesting. Probably a tad more capacity than a 7-300 wsm to run the 180's hard but not the giant step up to a 28 Nosler. Would still need a long action though which would probably be the deal breaker.


Isn't that called 284 Winchester (effectively)?
 

nick338

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That's the problem though. You can't really achieve a mv that takes advantage of the high bc 180 class bullets because they are so long and you have to seat them deeper into the case to fit in a short action. If you want to run 160 class bullets for higher mv then the 6.5 heavies are overtaking them. 7's really shine with the 180's and heavier when you can run them on 60 of more grs of powder. And still to get the most out of the short mag cases you need to do it on a long action. Sure, people do it all the time on a short action but you do lose some powder capacity and the ability to have seating depth flexibility.

The 284 Win will definitely fit inside a short action (that's what it was designed for) but the case OAL is about .1" longer than a 308 case so bullet intrusion into powder space is a bit of an issue. Still, if you can achieve the desired MV without pressure problems, is it really a problem?
 
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Jackomason

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So isn't this thread about the 7mm creedmoor? I think it would be a more productive conversation to figure out where it fits in the grand scheme of 7mm's. I'm really curious about it because of the terminal ballistics on game out of a short action. I guess it would be a slight step down from the 7 saum, I'd be interested to see how the 168 vlds do.
 
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LRShooter101

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I wasn't going to go there, because I thought the OP was looking more for a hunting rig, that was firing "lighter" 7mm hunting bullets, not a target rig that was firing "heavy" 180+ bullets. But since the "heavies" came up:

The terrible twosome, my "Sevens".
Two.jpg

The top is a .284 and the bottom is a 7 SAUM.

I started with the 7 SAUM, and learned the hard way that the great new heavy high BC bullets are VERY LOOONG! When you try to run them in a Short Action, that length screws you. They either end up too long to be run out of a mag, or they end up seated way too deep into the case. For the SAUM in a Mag Fed Short Action, you are better off running something below the 180s.
Bullet Lengths for Comparision (per this topic, I am referencing hunting bullets):
30 Cals
165 Sierra Gameking 1.195
180 Sierra Gameking 1.287
168 Winchester Silvertip 1.299
185 Berger Hunter 1.330
180 Winchester Silvertip 1.350
185 Berger Hunting VLD 1.378
178 Hornady ELD-X 1.420
7mms
162 Hornady ELD-X 1.478
175 Hornday ELD-X 1.567
195 Berger EOL Hunter 1.645
NOTE! The 7mms are significantly longer than even the bigger & heavier .30 cals. Something a lot of folks don't think about, especially when they are trying to cram them in a Short Action.

Then I started running the .284 with the Long Action, and the length of the bullets was no longer an issue. The .284 does well with the "heavies", but to take full advantage of them, you still really need more horsepower like a full Magnum. Another key issue to remember about the great new heavy 7mms, is that those phenominal BCs are velocity dependent, and you must have enough case capacity and barrel to get them up to ideal velocities.

I am not really sure why a Long Action is such a deal breaker for everyone? I ran a Long Action M24 for may years, never had a problem with it. I have been running this Long Action .284 for a couple of years, once again, no problems.

Back to the OP, you are basically building a "modern version" of the 7mm-08. In a .308 parent case, a 7mm will obviously perform better from an external ballistics standpoint than a .30 cal. Of course if you follow George Gardner and Pat Sinclair, they will tell you that a 6.5mm can very effectively kill just about anything running around in North America, as long as shot placement is optimal. Once again in a .308 parent case, a 6.5mm can outperform a 7mm in terms of external ballistics.

If hunting is your number 1 application, and distance is going to be the deciding factor, then look at the 6.5mm. If distance is not going to be the deciding factor, then the terminal ballistics of the heavier 7mm may be a winner.

Funny how everything is always getting reinvented in order to try and build a better mouse trap.
 
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Hondo1

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So isn't this thread about the 7mm creedmoor? I think it would be a more productive conversation to figure out where it fits in the grand scheme of 7mm's. I'm really curious about it because of the terminal ballistics on game out of a short action. I guess it would be a slight step down from the 7 saum, I'd be interested to see how the 168 vlds do.
Haha I was thinking the same thing, no harm in seeing where it goes though. I buy no means feel like my thread is being shit on.
 
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Hondo1

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I appreciate everyone’s input on this. The idea is to shoot 162’s at a velocity of 2500fps+ out of a 16-18” Barrel. Yes a 6.5 will kill anything on the planet with “perfect shot placement” but the reality of hunting where I’m at is jumping a bull in deep timber rarely offers a perfect shot placement scenario. Having said that I want a little more ass than the small 6.5’s put on the table.
 

nick338

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My 7 SAUM is on a long action and I love it. I'm not sure why it's a deal breaker for most people but I hear short action more often than not in the 6.5 and 7 community.

I started on the 6.5 PRC kick about a year ago and was all in on running heavies in a short action until I found out the choice of reamers was limited. Decided on the 7 SAUM and haven't looked back.

A 7 Creedmoor will basically duplicate the 7mm-08 in terminal ballistics and I highly doubt game will know the difference. I'm not sure that it even makes sense from a commercial standpoint as the even longer than 6.5, 7mm bullets will have a tough time fitting in the magazine.
 

LRShooter101

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What about that is incompatible with comparing it to the 284 Winchester?
Probably because you are going from a Short Action to a Long Action going from a 7 Creedmoor to a .284.

I say that, because you can't run a .284 in a Short Action and take full advantage of the high BC bullets, unless you are single feeding/loading them.
 

308pirate

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Probably because you are going from a Short Action to a Long Action going from a 7 Creedmoor to a .284.

I say that, because you can't run a .284 in a Short Action and take full advantage of the high BC bullets, unless you are single feeding/loading them.
The criteria was wide open, beyond bullet diameter. More information, rather than less, is a good thing.

I learned a thing or two by asking questions outside of the narrow lane that seems some (not you) want.
 

nick338

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I still don't think a 7 Creed has the horsepower to run 180 class bullets to take advantage of the high bc. bullets. Even on a long action it would be hard pressed to hit optimal velocities.

This is why the 6.5 Creed made sense over a 260 Rem. The longer, heavier bullets could still be loaded to magazine length and achieve decent velocities without stuffing them into the case and sacrificing speed.
 

Diver160651

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Just stopped by our of curiosity... but holy cow! 2820fps? My 7mm rem mag is pushing the 162eldx at 2940 out of a 24" barrel. That's gotta be running close to %30 less powder for 120fps drop in velocity.

I guess that would change a lot of views on the .280 rem

Good stuff, I'm even more curious about what others have to say but it sounds like it should be a bigger contender than it is.
I think when you can consider what you can do with a 7-08 handloading, the creed speeds he posted seem reasonable. My 7mag runs 168s just over 3100 out of a 26” barrel.
 

LRShooter101

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I appreciate everyone’s input on this. The idea is to shoot 162’s at a velocity of 2500fps+ out of a 16-18” Barrel. Yes a 6.5 will kill anything on the planet with “perfect shot placement” but the reality of hunting where I’m at is jumping a bull in deep timber rarely offers a perfect shot placement scenario. Having said that I want a little more ass than the small 6.5’s put on the table.
Look at what you can do with a 7mm-08, and that is really close to what you are going to do with a 7mm Creedmoor.
Internal Ballistics:
The case capacity for a 7mm Creedmoor and a 7mm-08 would be within 1-2 grains of H2O, so they are basically going to perform the same.
According to Quickload, looking at a 7mm-08, a 162 ELD-X with a COAL of 2.830 with 39 grains of Varget out of a 18" barrel will produce 58,000 PSI and 2,450 fps. That is about 99% case capacity and a 98% burn rate. If you go with a 24" barrel, you can increase the burn rate to over 99%, and get 2,600 fps.

External Ballistics:
Plug a 162 ELD-X into whatever ballistics app you run at somewhere between 2,450-2,600 fps based on the barrel length that you would use.
Here are the Hornady BC values, based on velocity:
https://www.hornady.com/support/ballistic-coefficient
At above 2,500 fps, which is doable out of a 20"+ barrel, the G7 would be .338

Terminal Ballistics:
At 2,600 fps, that is 2,450 lbs at the barrel. It will be right around 1,000 lbs at 725 yards.

Interestingly, Hornady is using the 150 ELD-X in their 7mm-08 Precision Hunter ammo:
https://www.hornady.com/ammunition/rifle/7mm-08-rem-150-gr-eld-x-precision-hunter#!/
You can find the specs on it there.

Would a 7mm Creedmoor with a 162 ELD-X work, YES. Based on the data above, you should be able to look at both the Pros & Cons compared to something else.

Looking at a 7mm Creedmoor versus a 7mm-08, you can get better brass options with the Creedmoor, but you are also going to have the extra work to expand the cases, and expanded cases can also be notrious for donuts if you don't turn the necks. You are also going to have more of an issue of getting a reamer and dies with the 7mm Creedmoor.

The 7mm Creedmoor was done about 5 years ago:
https://forum.snipershide.com/threads/7mm-creedmoor-powder-and-velocity-tests.161175/
It has not really gone anywhere because the existing 7mm-08 could pretty much match it, and there a lot of other cartridges that can easily beat it.

Based on all of that, your call!
 
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LRShooter101

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I still don't think a 7 Creed has the horsepower to run 180 class bullets to take advantage of the high bc. bullets. Even on a long action it would be hard pressed to hit optimal velocities.

This is why the 6.5 Creed made sense over a 260 Rem. The longer, heavier bullets could still be loaded to magazine length and achieve decent velocities without stuffing them into the case and sacrificing speed.
You are correct, a 7mm Creedmoor would NOT be able to take full advantage of the heavy 7mms like the 180s and 195s, there simply is NOT enough case capacity no matter what you do. With 10+ more grains of case capacity the .284 and SAUM will do the heavies justice.
 

Hondo1

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Look at what you can do with a 7mm-08, and that is really close to what you are going to do with a 7mm Creedmoor.
Internal Ballistics:
The case capacity for a 7mm Creedmoor and a 7mm-08 would be within 1-2 grains of H2O, so they are basically going to perform the same.
According to Quickload, looking at a 7mm-08, a 162 ELD-X with a COAL of 2.830 with 39 grains of Varget out of a 18" barrel will produce 58,000 PSI and 2,450 fps. That is about 99% case capacity and a 98% burn rate. If you go with a 24" barrel, you can increase the burn rate to over 99%, and get 2,600 fps.

External Ballistics:
Plug a 162 ELD-X into whatever ballistics app you run at somewhere between 2,450-2,600 fps based on the barrel length that you would use.
Here are the Hornady BC values, based on velocity:
https://www.hornady.com/support/ballistic-coefficient
At above 2,500 fps, which is doable out of a 20"+ barrel, the G7 would be .338

Terminal Ballistics:
At 2,600 fps, that is 2,450 lbs at the barrel. It will be right around 1,000 lbs at 725 yards.

Interestingly, Hornady is using the 150 ELD-X in their 7mm-08 Precision Hunter ammo:
https://www.hornady.com/ammunition/rifle/7mm-08-rem-150-gr-eld-x-precision-hunter#!/
You can find the specs on it there.

Would a 7mm Creedmoor with a 162 ELD-X work, YES. Based on the data above, you should be able to look at both the Pros & Cons compared to something else.

Looking at a 7mm Creedmoor versus a 7mm-08, you can get better brass options with the Creedmoor, but you are also going to have the extra work to expand the cases, and expanded cases can also be notrious for donuts if you don't turn the necks. You are also going to have more of an issue of getting a reamer and dies with the 7mm Creedmoor.

The 7mm Creedmoor was done about 5 years ago:
https://forum.snipershide.com/threads/7mm-creedmoor-powder-and-velocity-tests.161175/
It has not really gone anywhere because the existing 7mm-08 could pretty much match it, and there a lot of other cartridges that can easily beat it.

Based on all of that, your call!
The Creedmoor idea vs 7-08 is based on the SR25 magazine pattern, thought I may be a better fit. Kinda sounds like the juice may not be worth the squeeze.
 

Jackomason

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I think when you can consider what you can do with a 7-08 handloading, the creed speeds he posted seem reasonable. My 7mag runs 168s just over 3100 out of a 26” barrel.
Yeah the VLDs have less bearing surface than the Eldx, I think my load would push those 168s over 3k. So if this guy is pushing the 162eldm at 2820 I bet he would be close to 2900+ with the vld, I dont have too much expirience with the vld but that's just what I've read. At that he could cut the barrel down to hunting length and be off to the races!

I'm not the OP so it's not my thread to direct but I would like to hear more about the 7mm creed and where it finds its niche. Sorry if I came off as rude.
 

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6.5 PRC has a case length of 2.035 and 284 Win is 2.170
6.5 PRC has a base diameter of .532 and 284 Win is .501

Now if we had a case that was 2.170 long with .532 base that would be interesting. Probably a tad more capacity than a 7-300 wsm to run the 180's hard but not the giant step up to a 28 Nosler. Would still need a long action though which would probably be the deal breaker.
Sorry to derail the thread but since the PRC case is about 0.135" shorter than .284 and the 178 ELD-X is only about 0.090" longer than the 162 ELD-X, it seems like a 7 PRC with heavies would fit a short action better than .284 with 160 grain class bullets.

When you're considering 6.5 Creedmoor, 7 Creedmoor and 7mm-08, I think it makes sense to consider pushing the short action envelope as far as you can.

Any way, I want to try to figure out an efficient cartridge to take advantage of those 7mm heavies...
 

LRShooter101

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Sorry to derail the thread but since the PRC case is about 0.135" shorter than .284 and the 178 ELD-X is only about 0.090" longer than the 162 ELD-X, it seems like a 7 PRC with heavies would fit a short action better than .284 with 160 grain class bullets.

When you're considering 6.5 Creedmoor, 7 Creedmoor and 7mm-08, I think it makes sense to consider pushing the short action envelope as far as you can.

Any way, I want to try to figure out an efficient cartridge to take advantage of those 7mm heavies...
There is no reason to run a 160 grain class bullet in a .284! Per above, the .284 has the horsepower to push a 180 grain class bullet. However once again, unless you want to feed them one at a time, the COAL is going to kill feeding them from a mag in a Short Action.

There is an efficient cartridge to take advantage of the 7mm heavies, it is called a SAUM. However once again, it is not going to happen in a Short Action.

You can try to turn lead into gold, but it is just not going to happen. If it was, someone would have done it by now!

The 7mm bullets are phenominal, however they are just too damn long to run to their full potential in a Short Action.

But once again, I have yet to hear any significant reason why everyone has such an issue with running a Long Action? (other than everyone already has a short action)
 

flyer

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It's the powder column.

Short and fat works really well for 6BR, I want to scale it up without losing the secret sauce.
 

LRShooter101

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It's the powder column.

Short and fat works really well for 6BR, I want to scale it up without losing the secret sauce.
I shoot a 6 Dasher, and a that 7 SAUM, so I am with you on that short and fat powder column concept.

A SAUM or a PRC is pretty much already there. Not sure that you could really fatten and shorten them a lot more?

There were the Win Super Short Mags, but they failed and died off pretty quickly.
 

CanSniper

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OP asked about a 7mm that fits in a SR25 pattern mag. I load to 2.850 oal. 7 creed fits in a mag better than 7/08 for the same reason 6.5 creed fits better than 260. My 7mm even loaded @ a more tame velocity visibly smacks steel much harder that a 6.5 creed and runs with it for drop, beats it in the wind and has better barrel life. It makes 308 drops look like a BB gun. I will admit that the load I posted above is definitely warm, but far from dangerous. I have 2 reloads on my new brass and have yet to loose a primer pocket.
As far as brass it is a simple pass through a die with the expander mandrel. Dounuts have not been a issue but I always use the expander, keeps the dounuts pushed out. I have been using Lapua 6.5 Creed SRP brass. I used to form it from 308 palma, which was quite a bit of work. It had to be neck turned, and formed in several steps. But made very nice brass. The new 6.5 stuff is easy.
Dies are just a 6.5 Creed bushing die with the correct bushing for 7mm.
 
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LRShooter101

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. . . . . As far as brass it is a simple pass through a die with the expander mandrel. Dounuts have not been a issue but I always use the expander, keeps the dounuts pushed out . . . . . .
Not trying to start a pissing contest, just trying to further clarify things.

This comes from shooting a .284, which is necked up Lapua 6.5-284 brass.

I did not have a Donut problem, until I got into multiple firings on the cases. I also did not realize that I had a Donut problem until my rounds starting shooting inconsistently and it took a lot of work to figure out what was causing it.

Long Story Short, I started using Pin Gages (or Gauge) to check my brass (based on recommendations from other shooters), and then the Donuts became very obvious.

As you can see from the video, the Pin Gage will slide 95% of the way into the case neck with no resistance, and then it comes to a hard stop where the Donut is at the Neck/Shoulder junction.

I also use an Expander as my last sizing step, but it will NOT push the Donuts completely out.

Apparently as the brass flows/moves forward with firings, it creates the Donut at the Neck/Shoulder junction. This is apparently because the thicker brass that was pulled out with neck expansion acts as stop. Your brass does not get longer, it just grows Donuts!

Options to deal with this:
- Turn the necks on the outside at the start of the process
- Ream the inside of the neck after a couple of firings

Sorry for the sidetrack, but this issue drove me crazy until I was able to figure out what was really going on. I was having erratic behavior (velocity spikes/swings, groups opening up), so I thought that I had a Carbon Ring, had a bad batch of powder, and the list went on, until someone helped me figure it out.

Not sure if you would see this with a 7 Creed?
 
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CanSniper

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Yea, good info. I have only 2 reloads on this brass. I will watch it. Maybe next round I will just neck turn. I did run alot of horandy brass when I first started. Never seemed a issue. But Hornady is thinner in the shoulder. Maybe not as bad with the Hornady.
Another factor is the Creed case design grows very little after multiple firings. Seems to flow very little. Especially compared to say 308.
Will definitely keep it on my radar though! Certainly appreciate the advice.
 

fdkay

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Find a good source of .300 savage brass and run that through your resizing die.
Done.
The 7mm CM is nothing but a lightly altered version of the 7 IHMSA, which has been around for decades.
Not sure what the disconnect is with some folks ("but, but, but, the heavies...)
A 162 ELD-M or X has a G1 BC in excess of .61 easily outclasses the .30 cal 175 SMK and can be shot to higher velocity to boot.
Win-win.
 

Luvman

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I’m a little late to the party but if the goal is to run a 7mm out of a mag and through a short(er) barrel wouldn’t a 7x47L work pretty well with 162’s and maybe 180’s?
 

Hondo1

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7SAW I reamer
Been a while since I’ve read about the SAW but if I recall that reamer is intended for the 120’s and 140’s. I really don’t have any interest in stepping to 7mm if I can’t run the 162’s.
If the short throat reamer would allow decent performance out of the SR25 mag I would definitely be interested in the SAW.
 

clcustom1911

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Been a while since I’ve read about the SAW but if I recall that reamer is intended for the 120’s and 140’s. I really don’t have any interest in stepping to 7mm if I can’t run the 162’s.
If the short throat reamer would allow decent performance out of the SR25 mag I would definitely be interested in the SAW.
SAW 2 reamer from West Texas Ordinance. Long throated reamer. Check it out. they have brass and dies available as well.
 

iceng

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7mm Super LR. 7-08mm parent case, run thru a die, shoot. 56.3gr H2O capacity (Winchester). Only just built it, will be shooting later today to get some basic data.

This brass is once fired (as a super LR, was pulled from a live factory round, then reloaded).
 

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Simia Dei

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7mm Super LR. 7-08mm parent case, run thru a die, shoot. 56.3gr H2O capacity (Winchester). Only just built it, will be shooting later today to get some basic data.

This brass is once fired (as a super LR, was pulled from a live factory round, then reloaded).
More details! Running in a short action? How different is it to the 7mm SAW?
 

iceng

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Yes short action. I'll have full range report in a week. Doing a half day PRS with it. It should be basically identical to 7-saw.

I have good experience with 6-slr and 6.5-slr. I'm a huge 7mm guy, so this was logical for me. The body is Marginally different to the "normal" SLR design, for chambering / safety purposes. I can post the reamer print if needed, but Manson has it, as does widden.

I'll post results as I get them.
 
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