6.5 Creedmoor

M113A3

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I just picked up some Rl16 to try my hand at loading 6.5CM for a new rifle. is this something that is typical of powders in general or this powder specifically?

BTW @ Lunchbox27 what is your barrel length?
 

canezach

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I just picked up some Rl16 to try my hand at loading 6.5CM for a new rifle. is this something that is typical of powders in general or this powder specifically?

BTW @ Lunchbox27 what is your barrel length?
Lot to lot variation is pretty common though not to the extreme some have mentioned here where they're seeing 150 fps more MV at the same charge weight. Varget is notorious for two lots being pretty significantly different. H4350 and RL16 have both been, in my experience at least, pretty consistent. For the magnums, I've had pretty good luck with both Retumbo and H1000
 
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JOE62

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I’ve got 3-1 lbers of H4831 that seem to be extremely fast for this burn range. I tried it in a 7mmRM and a 6.5x284 and would run into pressure before I got even decent velocity. I may try it in my Creedmoor and see how it does. It seems to be in the 4350 burn range. On second thought I may just run a trail of it and light it up.
 

Lunchbox27

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I just picked up some Rl16 to try my hand at loading 6.5CM for a new rifle. is this something that is typical of powders in general or this powder specifically?

BTW @ Lunchbox27 what is your barrel length?
I have seen Varget and IMR4064 swing 20-40ish in terms of lot to lot. This was the first time that I have ever seen such a large swing. Now that I've found my node I'm going to open the rest of the jugs and test 2 rounds of each jug over chrono so at least I know.

My barrel length is 24" and running an Omega can
 
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Bantam1

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Hornady 135 A-Tip
Lapua Brass
CCI BR4
2.235 from the ogive for a 2.890 OAL
42.8 RL-16
2829 (Magnetospeed number)
SD 4
ES 6
.225” group
.002 neck tension

Hornady 140 ELD-M
Lapua brass
CCI BR4
2.244 from ogive
42.4 H4350
2804
SD 5.5
ES 14
.156” group
.002” neck tension

26” Bartlien in a Bighorn TL3 action
70 F
44% Humidity
1650’ Altitude
1500’ DA
 
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SD carpenter

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Looks like Berger is releasing a new hunting bullet next month.

156g bullet with .347 g7 and a .92 form factor...

Looking pretty nice for us using them for hunting anyway


Edit: oh and reloder 26 will be back in stock this month, per talking to alliant yesterday
 

JOE62

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I did some number crunching and with a 1/8 twist and at 2650 fps shows a 1.49 stability factor. That looks good providing it can be launched that fast in a Creedmoor. Re26 should be capable of that or maybe a little more. Anyone seen any load data for it yet?
 

woogie_man

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Have a question for you guys.....

Have been working on finding a load for my Howa 1500 and I think I found a load, but I have a question. Using H4350, Hornady 140 eld-m, cci200, hornady brass...... At 100 yards I had a group that measured 0.365" CTC, but the numbers gave me an average of 2700 fps, Extreme Spread of 66.03, and a Standard Deviation of 24.85. Charged with 40.8 grains of H4350

The lowest numbers I got with another load was Average 2656 fps, Extreme spread 41.45, and a Standard Deviation of 18.30. But the group on this load was 1.120"....Charged with 40.6 grains of H4350

So I am able to get a nice group, at 100 yards, with the 40.8 load, but the numbers are larger with the 40.6 load.

I am using a blue shooting chrony, so nothing like the fancy things you guys have.


Any ideas or thoughts?
 

JOE62

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I've been told by a person who competes and he said follow the targets not the numbers. There is a lot involved in dropping ES and SD's. I get better numbers and velocities with RL16 but I get better accuracy with H4350. Not a big difference but noticeable. I don't know what your reloading regimen is but consistency in every step, meticulous attention to neck tension and sorting bullets(base to ogive and weight) will get the SD's and ES down.
 

woogie_man

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Have been trying to be as meticulous as possible, lengths are all with in .01" and using a hornady set of dies.

Suppose aside from weighing each individual projectile.....not sure what else I can do.

I will load up a handful of rounds and take out to distance and see what happens. Will use strelok as well and see what it comes up with after a good 100 yard zero.
 

Lunchbox27

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Whats your neck tension? Is there inconsistent seating pressure ( seating the bullet in the case)
 

woogie_man

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Not sure how to measure that honestly. They all seemed to load in smoothly with little resistance from the press. Using an RCBS press if that matters
 

Lunchbox27

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So, if it is a standard RCBS die, not a bushing die set, your neck tension is probably pretty high (say 4 to 5 thousands)

Here is how you can test...

Take a resized case. Measure the outside diameter of your neck. Most are around .288 for reference. Now, measure a loaded round at the very same spot.

Resized case = .288”
Loaded round = .291”
You have .3 thou of neck tension

.287” resize brass, .291” loaded, you have .4 thou of neck tension.

Most of the time when I see high ES/SD numbers and the charge is a known good weight, using good components, neck tension is the first thing I look at.

You could also have inconsistent neck tension. Some could be 2 thou, some could be 4 thou. This you can feel with the press while seating. You will get one that slides in with ease, and the next will take a little more of a push.

Most like their neck tension at 2 thousands.

One more thing... most using H4350 in the 6.5Creed find a solid node between 41.8 and 42.4 grains. So, check neck tension first. If that is solid, climb up a little more with your charge.
 

Lunchbox27

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Or... changes in lighting across your screens threw your numbers off. That was my reasoning for upgrading to the first gen magnetospeed, which I might add has been trouble free all these years.
This too! Good call.

You could always ask to run it over another chrono at the range. I lend mine out all the time.

If they don't want to, they’re a douche.
 

canezach

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@woogie_man here's how I reload, step by step, and my SD and ES are typically below 8 and 15, respectively:

After cleaning brass, I use a Redding Type S full length die with a bushing that is 0.003" below the diameter of a loaded round. I bump my shoulder back 0.001" to 0.0015" according to my Mitutoyo calipers and my Hornady Lock n Load comparator with the 400 datum body.

After I've resized my brass, I run the necks through a Sinclair expander mandrel. There are two mandrels: the expander, which is 0.001" below the caliber, and the neck turning mandrel, which is 0.002" below the caliber. Since we're discussing 6.5 Creedmoor, obviously the two mandrels are 0.263" and 0.262", respectively. Personally, I happen to find my best SD and ES numbers come with the expander mandrel, but your mileage may vary. Remember I had the bushing set my neck 0.003" below the loaded round? Now I'm using the mandrel to open up the neck to set my tension to 0.001" to 0.0015" (there's some springback in there). The mandrel also ensures the interior of my neck is perfectly round and any deformities are pushed to the outside of the neck.

After running the necks through the mandrel, I run them through my Giraud power trimmer. I'm not necessarily trimming, since I don't see much growth, but the Giraud does give me a nice chamfer and debur.

I prime with my old, cheap RCBS hand primer that I've used for probably six or seven years now. It's had the spring replaced a time or two, along with both of the primer rams/seating stems/whatever they're called, but it still works fine.

Next is throwing powder charges. I have used the ADFX120i and Auto Trickler for a couple of years, and while it's fantastic piece of kit, it didn't give me remarkably better numbers than my old Chargemaster, according to my MagnetoSpeed V3. It is, however, quicker, and it gives me far fewer overthrows. Really, all the FX120i and Auto Trickler give me are convenience.

Now it comes to seating bullets. I seat with the Redding Type S micrometer seating die that came with my FL die. All I did was swap to the VLD seating stem.

You'll see I didn't do any voodoo, or sort my brass or bullets by weight, etc. I will recommend sorting in a second, but only as an alternative.

If you really want to shrink your SD and ES numbers down, here are my suggestions:

1. Revisit your load development. Having SD/ES that high for two charge weights leads me to believe you might not yet be in the node. You should see your values really shrink when you've reached the node.

2.Ditch the Hornady brass, or at least sort it as best as you can. I don't think it's terrible brass, and I've used Hornady's 6.5 CM brass for years, but my biggest reduction in SD and ES came solely from switching to Alpha brass. If you don't want to switch brass, at least sort your Hornady brass, preferably by internal capacity (I know, it takes forever to do it right), or at least by weight.

3. Pick up a mandrel die and a set of mandrels. This was where I saw the second greatest slash in SD and ES. I use Sinclair because I'm cheap. Others use the titanium or whatever mandrels from 21st Century. But setting my neck tension consistently really improved my SD and ES numbers.

Edit to add: There's some truth to following the target and not the chrono, but that typically comes in when you're deciding between a 5 SD load and a 7 SD load, not when your choices are 25 and 18. Congratulations! You happened to shoot a couple of good groups. Chances are you can't repeat that five times, ten times, every time. You didn't say if those groups were 3 rounds or 5 rounds, but regardless, what's happening for that one group at 100 yards isn't representative of what's happening at 800 or 1000 or beyond because with an extreme spread of 66, your average MV of 2700 becomes anywhere from 2667 to 2733. At 1000 yards, the difference between your low velocity and high velocity is almost 20". Someone else said the magic recipe with H4350 and Hornady brass is right around 42.0 grains of powder, and that's really true. You can look at the start of this thread and see guys using Hornady brass with H4350 and almost all of us were between 41.8 and 42.2 grains of powder with a 140 grain projectile.
 
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canezach

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Looking at different brass.....what would be the difference between the alpha, lapua, starline, and others?
Mainly internal case capacity. I have 800 pieces of Alpha that are on their 4th firing and they're holding up well. My load for 6.5 Creedmoor with Reloder 16 gives me 2852 fps with the 140 ELDM and I'm using under 40 grains of powder. With Starline or Lapua, I'd have to increase my charge weight a bit to reach that same velocity.
 

woogie_man

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Loaded up some 42.0, 42.3 grains of the H4350 and was getting

42.0
AVG 2814
ES 71.02
SD 28.54

42.3
AVG 2828
ES 50.82
SD 24.14

42.6
AVG 2865
ES 99
SD ?

The 42.6 loads were cratering the primers and I stopped after these 5 rounds. I am shooting all groups as 5 rounds. Planning on loading up more of the load/loads that show promise to stretch them out and see what happens at 200 and 300 yards

Can't thank you enough for the help Zach....
 

JOE62

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Looking at different brass.....what would be the difference between the alpha, lapua, starline, and others?
Internal capacity and consistency. The better brands are more consistent in all dimensions (internal capacity and neck thickness). I use Lapua mainly. But I can get good ES and SD with Starline but I turn necks and size them with a Lee Collet Neck Die. I get the best consistency with the LCD.
 

woogie_man

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Starting to look at some of the different brass now. Payday is friday, and I may try and pick up at least 100 rounds of brass and see what happens.

I did just get done loading up 20 rounds, 5 rounds each of 41.8, 41.9, 42.0 and redoing the 40.8 to see if I can't duplicate the result. I also measured the overall length on each round as it came out of the press, and I was getting a consistent length across all the rounds. So I know that is the same across all the rounds.

I did take a few of the loaded rounds and weighed them to see what the differences are between the same loads. To say there was a difference would be an understatement! From the same load range got one that was 20 grains different from the rest. So I am seeing what you guys are talking about with the brass being different. I am also using one of the basic Hornady digital scales and a trickle charger. Found a small baby food spoon works great for getting small amounts of powder into the pan.

Will run these rounds through and see what happens.


I have also been playing with the idea of replacing the barrel on the Howa from the 24" factory barrel to one of the McGowen or Citrion barrels in the 16-18 length. Being as I have a TBAC 7" coming I am wanting to keep the size down to make the rifle at least maneuverable in the woods while hunting.
 

pbatesaz

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...... I have also been playing with the idea of replacing the barrel on the Howa from the 24" factory barrel to one of the McGowen or Citrion barrels in the 16-18 length. Being as I have a TBAC 7" coming I am wanting to keep the size down to make the rifle at least maneuverable in the woods while hunting.
Will this rifle be used primarily for hunting? If so, at what typical distances? For big game at 300 yards or less, an ES of 100 fps might not be significant. At 1000 yards it is definitely a factor.
 

tansinator

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woogie_man I use Hornady dies and brass, RCBS Chargemaster. 42 grains of 4350, 140 amax and my standard deviation on the last 5 I chrono'd was 3. Speed was 2778 fps average. Normally es is around 7. I am not a very experience loader, something seems way off with your numbers.
 

woogie_man

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I am thinking there is something off about the numbers. I am going to check these again and see what happens.

I am typically going to be using the rifle as a hunting gun, but also in the target side of things as well. So I am going for the target side, because if I know I can smack a plate at 1k I know a deer or anything from 400 on in is toast. Have smacked a few deer at the 300 yard mark, and the area I shoot only gets a little longer.
 

JOE62

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woogie_man I use Hornady dies and brass, RCBS Chargemaster. 42 grains of 4350, 140 amax and my standard deviation on the last 5 I chrono'd was 3. Speed was 2778 fps average. Normally es is around 7. I am not a very experience loader, something seems way off with your numbers.
These speeds are more inline with what I get also. I use 41.9 and get 2769. I think it may be the chrono. If you are getting good accuracy, you need to find another chrono to try or don’t worry about the numbers. Try your loads at distance and the inconsistency will show if it’s present.
 

woogie_man

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That is what I am planning. Trying to find something that is close to grouping before I make up more of the same load.

Was thinking something may be up with the chorno as well, I know I have been looking at getting a better unit.....but getting it past the finance officer is tough. As I have other hobbies that are just as expensive as this one, and I just crashed one of them this morning here...
 

JOE62

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I know what you mean about the finance officer. I reloaded for 40 years without one so it is doable. Read the Precision Reloading threads on here and try to incorporate that in to your reloading regimen. It’s not one big step. It’s all the little things coming together to make a difference. Consistency, consistency, consistency.
 

woogie_man

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Appreciate the offer, but I am up here in North Dakota.

Will see if we get a good day this coming week, and go do some testing.

Honestly enjoy the process, much like my rc things the attention to detail is fun. On a good note, was able to get my fpv wing up and got some awesome video.....Well until it crashed. Lol. Set up the navigation system incorrectly
 

Farmerdanss

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Appreciate the offer, but I am up here in North Dakota.

Will see if we get a good day this coming week, and go do some testing.

Honestly enjoy the process, much like my rc things the attention to detail is fun. On a good note, was able to get my fpv wing up and got some awesome video.....Well until it crashed. Lol. Set up the navigation system incorrectly
After reading thru your issues I can say the first thing you should change is your scale. If the one you have is the eight dollar hornady digital one that powers off after two min of inactivity, ditch it and get a balance beam scale. You can find used ones in eBay for thirty bucks..ohaus 505 , rcbs 505...rcbs 5-10 I hear is better. Use that until your advanced into reloading enough and can justify a high end magnetic force restoration digital scale. Getting single digits sd's is def possible with a balance beam.

The reason I'm saying this is I too used the POS hornady digital for awhile. After a while I noticed when starting it up and calibrating it..to using it for 15 min and recalibrating..I was getting half a grain swings. At minimum your getting .2 gr variations from trickling one charge the next.
 

woogie_man

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Hornady G2-1500 Digital Powder Scale 1500 Grain Capacity

Is the scale I have currently. Have been looking at the chargemaster or the like eventually. May have to bite the bullet and just buy one on payday
 

Farmerdanss

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Hornady G2-1500 Digital Powder Scale 1500 Grain Capacity

Is the scale I have currently. Have been looking at the chargemaster or the like eventually. May have to bite the bullet and just buy one on payday
well that scale is a touch better then the 8 dollar one I was referring to. Make sure its on at least 10 min before you calibrate and start trusting it I guess.
 

woogie_man

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Will keep that in mind, though honestly looking at a new scale currently. At least trying to eliminate as much as possible that could be an issue
 

30338

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22" hawk hill barrel, 147 ELD kiss at 2.81 oal
45.5 gr RL26, 147 ELD, lapua brass, CCI450, 2700 fps, average for 3 shot groups is in the .3-.4 range. No more case capacity seating at 2.81 and really feel no more need for speed.
 

LANCER

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I've never loaded 6.5cm before, but I've got components and have prepped brass ready to go for when my SOTIC arrives. I have an 8# jug of RL16, 300 or so once-fired, fully prepped Hornady brass, and 150 pcs of virgin GWT LP brass.
My question is on the GWT brass: I measured H2O capacity on both headstamps, with Hornady giving me an average of 54.4 gr. capacity but the GWT gives me a capacity of 49.3 gr of H2O. I'm assuming my starting loads should begin 4 grains below any book value. Am I correct in assuming this? It's very tough brass, and very concentric. I've expanded and then collet neck-sized all of them because neck tension was like .005
Anyhow, the 150 pcs will be used for break-in, so will not be shooting for groups necessarily, I'll just be fire-forming and going through the process. Once the barrel hits 100rds I'll begin actual load development.

I know the Hornady brass can be used to work up book values, and I'll be annealing both sets of brass every time using induction.

Anyone used GWT brass before, and should I really start so low? I got it on recommendation, it's supposed to be very strong, but thick-walled, like alpha. I'll be shooting the 140 eld-m, and eventually try out the A-tips in 135 flavor.
 

JOE62

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Definitely back down on starting loads. Never heard of that brass or seen any with that low of capacity. I reformed some Lapua 308 brass and thought it was thick. It held 50.5 grns H2O. The only place you need it thick is in the head around the primer. I’m trying to find some RL26 to try but nobody has any. I’ve had good results with Lapua SRP brass but I’ll use the thinner Hornady brass with it for the capacity and large primers.
 
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LANCER

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Definitely back down on starting loads. Never heard of that brass or seen any with that low of capacity. I reformed some Lapua 308 brass and thought it was thick. It held 50.5 grns H2O. The only place you need it thick is in the head around the primer. I’m trying to find some RL26 to try but nobody has any. I’ve had good results with Lapua SRP brass but I’ll use the thinner Hornady brass with it for the capacity and large primers.
Neck thickness was .015 on a large sample but I knocked it down somewhat to .014 with a collet neck sizer. Apparently GWT is geared more towards military loads. Volume will definitely increase once it's fire-formed, and I do want some durable brass so I can get at least 10 loadings. We'll see. The price was right though at around 30 cents a piece.
 

Ripdog28

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Ran a 2 shot ladder every .3grains.
H4150 40.4-42. Sierra 142SMK, Peterson Brass.
Found a really flat spot from 40.9-41.4.
Loaded 12 at 41.1grains
2803 FPS-avg
19ES 1 at 2816 and 1 at 2797. Most were 2802-2812.
5.3 SD
Had real bad mirage so didn’t shoot groups.
 

M113A3

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Just started reloading for a 22 inch 6.5 using once fired Hornady brass. Here is what I was able to do today.

Total of 5 rounds each and as you can see I need more practice... the five rounds are split 2 and then 3.

The RL16 42.1 to 42.4 had the best groups. I also want to try 41.8 to 42.0 to see if there is a more accurate load and a little less recoil. My goal was 2700 which was modest. There may be areas above 42.7 i.e. 42.8/9 that will liklwy get me in the 2800 FPS area but not sure if I am going to push it that much since there are other powders\bullets\primers to try as well.

Thoughts?

7115079
 

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woogie_man

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Finally able to get a dry day and get out to shoot the rounds I loaded up to test.

There is something going on that isn't correct ...

41.8 grain
2675
2703 AVG 2695
2695 ES 127.1
2764 SD 46.33
2637

41.9
2789
2786 AVG 2758
2685 ES 103.9
2757 SD 43.00
2776

42.0
2710
2715
2781
2730
2717

40.8 This was a duplicate load that I wanted to test again ..... and came up completely different from last time
2709
2698
2687
2640
2620

There is something going on with my process that I have to figure out, as this is starting to really piss me off. Going to look at getting a beam scale or something other than the small Hornady digital scale. Also going to look at getting a some of the better brass as well to see if that wont fix some of the consistency issues I am seeing
 

Coltster

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Not quite getting the speed I was expecting out of these 130-AR Hybrids. Was thinking of trying RL-16 instead of H4350, any help would be much appreciated.

Berger 130-AR Hybrid
Starline SR
CCI 450
2.210 from ogive
43.3 H4350
2834
SD 5.6
ES 11
.188” group
.002” neck tension

24” SS Proof Research prefit
84 F
53% Humidity
1914DA
 

DMP

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Not quite getting the speed I was expecting out of these 130-AR Hybrids. Was thinking of trying RL-16 instead of H4350, any help would be much appreciated.

Berger 130-AR Hybrid
Starline SR
CCI 450
2.210 from ogive
43.3 H4350
2834
SD 5.6
ES 11
.188” group
.002” neck tension

24” SS Proof Research prefit
84 F
53% Humidity
1914DA
I would take a slower speed to get the accuracy and consistency you are getting.
 
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DMP

Mike
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I agree it shoots great but 43.3 H4350 is pretty hefty load (no pressure signs though), just expected more MV.
It is great to chase our expectations! I have done the same . Now I use my time to develope my shooting skills, reading conditions, etc. We can persue any part of this sport!!