.338 Lapua Magnum "Generation II" Development

lapua001

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I have shot the Lapua at 2,000 Meters / 2,200 yards and can say your goal using a 300-grain Sierra Match King will be very difficult to meet at sea level under standard meteorological conditions. I've used Berger and Lapua 300-grainers with marginally better success, albeit at 4,500 - 6,000 feet above Mean Sea Level.

I believe General Dynamics - Saint Marks developed a duplex powder to address your goal. I'm not sure whether or not Explosia in Czech carries an equivalent.
Thank you for your comments. Would like to give you and better answer, however, right now we are operating under a very heavy workload

Our advanced 300 gr projectile surpasses the Sierra # 9300 Match King significantly. We will need to bring it into production finally, and only then we will be able to publish Data

The lynch pin continues to be a 2,000 yard powder which i our 1st focus but not fully in our control . St Marks and Explosia are both very good, technically capable companies and we invite any 2,000 powder from them or anyone else on the Frontier of powder development . If anyone knows any different, any information whatsoever (even a crumb), would be greatly appreciated
 

SIDS01

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If you are successful in finding a powder that emulates the effects of a larger, slower burning, charge in a larger case, do you expect that the barrel life will be any better than the same performance gained with current methods? If that powder comes from outside supplier, what will differentiate your product from what others could supply? It appears to me, the most recent generational change in ELR has been the introduction of the current crop of solid bullets. This works well with your relaxing of the CIP magazine length restriction.
 

ok6.5

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I'm certain I've missed some of the conversation between 2012 to 2017, but I've shot maybe 1200 reloads through my AR30A1338 Lapua Magnum and have been extremely happy with Retumbo powder and the 300 OTM Berger. In early development, I used a TOO hot load that yielded incredible 100 yd results as far as accuracy and sd. I won't even give the powder loads, since I reduced it and have found an equal load that is just as accurate and still reaches out to 1760 yds and if I only had a 2000 yd target, it would make it. At 93.2 grains of Retumbo, Lapua brass, 300 gr OTM Berger, Federal Large Rifle Magnum Match primers, loaded to 3.021 base to ogive (3.86 coal) it measures 2790 fps and I have shot a group (only 3) at .09". That's 1/11th of an inch. All 3 in as close to a single hold as I've ever shot. Only has slight ejector marks and is always consistent. I have a one mile 12x24 silhouette set up and have recently had a 3 shot group of 9.5". I use a 32" mild steel target to help me "get on target" that is set up 100 yds shorter, so it helps me to zero in on the smaller, further AR500 silhouette. Hope this helps. I tried the H1000 on several hundred loads, but found retumbo better for the 338, while the H1000 works better for my AR30A!300 Win Mag and the 208gr Amax.
 

lapua001

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Whjle I prefer Retumbo, GD-Saint Marks developed OBP-716 to drive a 250-grainer to 3,000 fps from a 24-inch barrel at 64,000 psi.
We are still working to find the 2,000 yard powder with a 300 gr advanced ULD projectile, and the comments of anyone with any further ideas or leads would appreciated. This is a long haul since 1993 which requires a propellant technological breakthrough. Unfortunately, this factor that drives the ship for the last 26 years is simply something that we don't control. Imagine what this propellant, most likely with a pressure plateau rather than a pressure curve, will do for other calibers? A generational breakthrough has not occurred in propellant development for many years, and this breakthrough could come from anywhere. For this reason, we need not only enduring patience, but an open mind
 

THEIS

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Hi,

Waiting for propellant development is an act of Futility....😶

We could be better served by changing the pressure curve itself, there is no need to be using pressure "limits" set forth decades ago as to what is allowed and what is max.

We change that and we can see instant advancements in ballistics.

US Army is beginning to realize that in relation to the Next Gen Squad Weapon and the pressures it is being tested/trialed at.

Sincerely,
Theis
 
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AIAW

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H50/Black powder charge layer-cake. Nice smooth curve that will 95 percent burn in a 48" barrel ;)
 

GIXXER2000

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Here is my load and have used it at ELR matches to make multiple hit at 2625 Yards in my AI-PSR with 27 in barrel. This was done at 1778 feet above sea level.
Lapua Brass
Fed 215 Primer
90.5gr Retumbo
300gr Berger Hy
COAL 3.765 (Will fit in my mag)
AVG FPS 2746
SD 8
 

sinister

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In all fairness, this has appeared to be a trolling thread from the beginning.

Their JGS reamer has an extended case mouth to leade distance to accommodate longer cartridge overall length. A number of us have given recommendations on both available off-the-shelf and specialty powders to get a 300-grain Sierra, Berger, Hornady, or Lapua projo to 2,000 yards/Meters. A serious company could have put these all together (given their test bed rifle) a long, long time ago.

Powder companies are in the business to sell powder. Bullet companies want to sell bullets. Both will spend massive amounts of money and shooter and radar time to find the perfect match to corner a niche military market.
 
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lapua001

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H50/Black powder charge layer-cake. Nice smooth curve that will 95 percent burn in a 48" barrel ;)
The objective we are anticipating barrel wise is expected to be about 32 " with a 5R twist, but we only really get to cook with gas when we have a propellant that is up to the 2,000 yard objective that was first established in 1993. The whole train is largely backed up behind the propellant which is not unlike the discovery of flight; dedication, patience accepting many doldrums, set backs and failures but then..... When we talked about a using a 32" barrel with Kevin Thomas when he was the chief ballistician at Sierra Bullets for our .338 Lapua Generation II with a 300gr API projectile Kevin remarked '"..... that is a very long barrel for .338 Lapua Mag, and I responded no, its a short barrel for .50cal Browning (when one considers a .338 LM Gen II with a 300 gr API can do some of the work that .50cal Browning does without having to hump a pig of a rifle over a mountain)

This is the history of development and why we are were we are in many fields today. There is no fast or easy here; or as one musician once said it took me 20 years to become and "overnight success" it takes tenacity, vision, and patience. Development is not for everyone
 
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lapua001

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Hi,

Waiting for propellant development is an act of Futility....😶

We could be better served by changing the pressure curve itself, there is no need to be using pressure "limits" set forth decades ago as to what is allowed and what is max.

We change that and we can see instant advancements in ballistics.

US Army is beginning to realize that in relation to the Next Gen Squad Weapon and the pressures it is being tested/trialed at.

Sincerely,
Theis
My comments today about development speak volumes, and in answer to yours above we agree not to set the limits as the US Army does (they lean towards putting themselves in a box as their is no risk and they can never be wrong. In 35 years in this field we are wrong at least once a week!). Putting yourself in a box like that to maintain the status quo is timid and handicaps creativity. Where would jet engines be without people like Frank Whittle or his German counterpart? How would we ever have got the P-51 Mustang from drawing board to Tarmac in only 101 days? It took years of experience and commitment to make that 101 days and the P-51 possible

We get to the end solution any way we can; and one has to have an open mind. It could be a pressure plateau as Ken Johnson formerly of St Marks articulated a number of years ago or some variation of that picture. If we had the answer we would already be there and the propellant Mfg are very interested as image what this 2,000 yard propellant will do for .308, .243 .30-06 etc etc. There have been incremental improvements in the propellant business but not a generational one for years. Imagine the commercial reward for a company comes up with the 2000 yard propellant that fits our 26 year objective. Again, development is not for everyone
 

lapua001

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Hi,

Just FWIW in case anyone skips over page one of this thread and/or does not realize "who" the "we" are in regards to @lapua001 newest reply.


Sincerely,
Theis
You and other readers are better served with the ordnance developments link in our web-page that gives the history of .338 Lapua Mag since the days of Jukka Lumme and Juha Mikkola at Lapua back in 1993. There is a lot of work that has gone into this over the years

 

lapua001

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Hi,

You do realize the 2000yd 338LM is a pretty common thing these days right?
What are you waiting on regards to "development" to achieve that?

Sincerely,
Theis
.... But to consistently reach out to 2,000 yards with a 300 gr API projectile, penetrate and light up a target, also in extreme climatic conditions consistently until it is an accepted standard still has not been achieved yet and is in ongoing discussions with major powder Mfgs., other more obscure ones and others in the ammunition and firearms industry. This from the Shot Show, to IWA to DESI this year alone and other venues and ongoing relationships developed over 35 years
 

jaybigboy34

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Re: .338 Lapua Magnum "Generation II" Development

If anyone has come across any further propellant development possibilities we would be very interested in taking a look at them for our ammunition program if they show some potential
What about IMR8133?
 

Batemanb12

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Testing and observation on AX-338 w/20 barrel 1:9.35
466' above sea level
Peterson Brass
Hornady 285 ELDM Match (Moly) G1 BC @.789
(Hornady OAL 2.933) *
*Worked Down from a (2.955 )OAL to find best accuracy.
*Magazine Length
Federal Match Magnum

Load Development (5 rounds per weight)
This information is for MY rifle only. Use this at your own risk!!!!
Would like to test Retumbo and RL26 when available.
  • RL33
  • 101g @2613
  • 102g @2652
  • 103g @2669
  • 104g @2730 Compressed .723 Group

  • H1000
  • 93g @2612 .670 Group
  • 93.5 @2621
  • 94g @2666 .597 Group
  • 94.5 @2698

  • 4831sc
  • 90g @2680
  • 90.5 @2696
  • 91g @2705 .567 Group
  • 91.5g @2741 .343 Group
  • Could push faster, but want to preserve brass. Slight sign of pressure.
I have tried many a few different bullets, but the rifle prefers the Hornady 285 ELDM
Bullets tested:
Berger .338 250g and 300g OTM
Lapua .338 250g and 300g OTM

Closing:
After seeing how the different slow burning powders can hit a plateau and have diminishing returns on powder capacity to velocity achieved with in a specific .338LM SAMMI pressure range. One solution could be to move up the powder scale to a faster burning powder that can safely provide SAMMI pressure levels with acceptable velocity to achieve the range and accuracy to meet your needs.
Assuming the loads would be close to the same on a 30" barrel 3100"fps should be obtainable with the 285 or 300 grain bullet that would start going transonic around 1800 yards or so.
 

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sinister

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The problem getting a dense Hoss 300 to 2850 and higher (to 3000+ fps) is whether a military load can pass EPVAT testing without blowing the primer out of the case head, if not actually piercing or blanking the cup.

The US military doesn't care about reloading the brass case -- just whether or not the complete round of ammunition did its job (including on the target) without damaging the weapon or operator.

It's also a foregone requirement that the operator be able to extract and eject the case without breaking off the bolt handle during primary extraction.