22LR Ammo and Suppressors

Conrad

Gunny Sergeant
Apr 28, 2006
1,342
62
48
TX
#1
My vudoo came in last week and I've run a few rounds through it with my TBAC 22 TD suppressor. Loving it, but then had the bolt become very hard to close. Found that I had a bunch of coarse debri in the bolt lug recess, and then realized it had gotten back there past the bolt by falling out of the suppressor down the bore when I carried the rifle up with bolt back. I was a bit surprised by how much burnt powder (fine) and maybe some unburnt(?,coarse) powder was loose in the suppressor when I gave it a few taps on a paper towel.

I know 22 ammo is fairly dirty, and a suppressor magnifies that, but I'm also not shooting premium match ammo. I'm shooting Aguila Subsonic, Eley prime. I haven't stretched it out, but accuracy is good at 25 and 50 yards. I have a lot so that's what I'm shooting right now.

Primary question, is this to be expected shooting suppressed, or am I shooting extra dirty ammo? I'm fine with build up, but loose particles within 25 or so rounds, isn't that cool.

Thanks!
 
Mar 12, 2013
1,047
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#2
That's normal even with expensive ammo. I also highly doubt it's not burned, even in a 26" barrel I still get big chunks out of the suppressor.
 
Feb 13, 2017
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#3
Weird this is something I have not though about. I am waiting on a Vudoo and have my Takedown .22 ready to go for it.

What size barrel did you get and do you wish you got a different size?
 

Conrad

Gunny Sergeant
Apr 28, 2006
1,342
62
48
TX
#4
Debri issue really has nothing to do with being a vudoo, so no worries there. Barrel is 16.5”. Regarding barrel, I went with the specter contour to keep things a bit lighter. Really am happy with that choice. Rifle is about 10.5 lbs in an MPA hybrid with NF NXS 2.5-10x40.

I guess one just needs to be careful with carrying muzzle up? I had dumped a significant amount of debri back in those lug recesses. Ruger rimfire was pretty dirty too but is built different so I didn’t have trouble closing the bolt.

I’ll continue to monitor.
 
Likes: Fig

djarecke

Full Member
Mar 9, 2013
518
75
28
#5
My vudoo came in last week and I've run a few rounds through it with my TBAC 22 TD suppressor. Loving it, but then had the bolt become very hard to close. Found that I had a bunch of coarse debri in the bolt lug recess, and then realized it had gotten back there past the bolt by falling out of the suppressor down the bore when I carried the rifle up with bolt back. I was a bit surprised by how much burnt powder (fine) and maybe some unburnt(?,coarse) powder was loose in the suppressor when I gave it a few taps on a paper towel.

I know 22 ammo is fairly dirty, and a suppressor magnifies that, but I'm also not shooting premium match ammo. I'm shooting Aguila Subsonic, Eley prime. I haven't stretched it out, but accuracy is good at 25 and 50 yards. I have a lot so that's what I'm shooting right now.

Primary question, is this to be expected shooting suppressed, or am I shooting extra dirty ammo? I'm fine with build up, but loose particles within 25 or so rounds, isn't that cool.

Thanks!
I've had this same issue with my Vudoo and for a while got tired of shooting it suppressed for this very reason. The way the bolt is designed traps particles and makes the bolt very difficult to close. The debris also gets on the bolt face and can make the bolt hard to close.

I've gotten back to shooting with the suppressor, but I make SURE to hold the gun level (or muzzle down) after I'm done shooting it. I love the gun and this is my only complaint. Even with a freshly-cleaned suppressor it still does the same thing so I guess it's a function of the bolt design and the headspace on our rifles.
 

Conrad

Gunny Sergeant
Apr 28, 2006
1,342
62
48
TX
#6
Interesting. Seems like we both concluded the best way to handle the rifle, muzzle level or down. Even with bolt closed I think some particles can fall under the under cut part and accumulate in the lug recess. My wife’s Ruger rimfire is plenty dirty too but doesn’t have the same type of lugs to bind up. My vudoo is top notch but this is a bit of a downer given I wanted to shoot it suppressed 100% of the time. I think it inevitable that the muzzle will be angled up if transitioning through different positions.
 

Sieg

Sergeant of the Hide
Jun 14, 2018
194
291
63
#8
I haven't noticed debris coming back into the action in my Ruger Precision Rimfire with my TacSol Axiom can shooting CCI SV and SK Std+. Does the suppressor design contribute to or minimize the issue?
 
Feb 13, 2017
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Wisconsin
#9
I had the same thing happen with my Vudoo (16.5" barrel) and Spectre II can. I cleaned the can and haven't had it happen for several range trips now...
DW
 
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djarecke

Full Member
Mar 9, 2013
518
75
28
#10
I haven't noticed debris coming back into the action in my Ruger Precision Rimfire with my TacSol Axiom can shooting CCI SV and SK Std+. Does the suppressor design contribute to or minimize the issue?
I don’t believe it’s the suppressor design. It’s the bolt design and debris causing it to mildly jam. Mine even does it occasionally without the suppressor when it gets super dirty.
 

RAVAGE88

Vudoo, Head Skunk
Feb 13, 2017
332
92
28
Somers, CT
www.vudoogunworks.com
#11
Hey Guys, just thought I'd jump in here quickly to comment on what you're seeing. First, thank you for being Vudoo customers and putting your confidence in what we do and how we do it, I'm always available here and the St George crew is available via phone, email, etc., if you ever have questions.

As far as running the Vudoo suppressed goes, yes, it's valid that standing your rifle vertical with a suppressor mounted dumps particles down the bore and it lands in the action making the bolt difficult to close. The issue is more prominent the dirtier the suppressor, so some may see it and like myself, some may never see it; just depends on how dirty the suppressor is and how you handle your rifle. I've never cleaned my suppressor, but I never have a reason to orient my rifle vertically. And to answer a question above, suppressor design can contribute to how much is dumped back into the bore, as does ammo, barrel length, etc.

So, why does it happen in the Vudoo and maybe not others? Basically, design intent dictates overall functionality. As I've stated in other threads, rimfire platforms are considerably more complex than centerfire and when it comes to manufacturing, complexity is expensive (hence the reason a lot of competing companies have similar designs). In the early days of rimfire design, suppressors weren't as widely used as they are now and frankly, some very old companies didn't start offering factory threaded muzzles until more recently. That feature was dictated by the market, not the manufacturer, so if the manufacturer says the design intent originally included suppressor use, it's likely not completely true and I consider the absence of this issue in those platforms to be more of an accident.

The design intent of the V-22 as a repeater focused on one thing first: ACCURACY. So, there are certain features that support this and the flat breech face is part of it. The tolerance between the end of the bolt nose and the flat breech face is incredibly tight, so it doesn't accommodate much garbage between the two surfaces. Are there other ways to do it and are there others that do it differently (such as a coned breech)? Of course, but the coned breech also has it's issues/draw backs (such as the inability to dry fire without damaging the barrel) and there are reasons I didn't use it in the V-22. Overall, I didn't shy away from the inherent complexity of the rimfire action for the sake of creating a cheaper platform.

Going forward: One of the beautiful things about Vudoo is, I get to play as much as I want. This means, while the guys in St George are working hard to meet unprecedented eight week delivery schedules, I'm in the lab working on the next things. One of these things is a new breech design, which has been in testing for nearly a year. I'm not saying here that we're introducing it, so please don't swamp the St George crew with calls, emails, etc., I'm just saying that we're not standing still. IF the new breech design falls within my original intent while enhancing overall performance, we'll incorporate it into future production. Until then, just be mindful of something I'm willing to speak openly/publicly about and know we're constantly supporting our customer base. Right now, it's as simple to deal with as dumping the garbage out of your suppressor at the end of each range session, or whatever menial effort you find mitigates/eliminates the condition.

Thanks again Guys and as usual, I'm always available if anyone has questions or needs anything at all.

MB
 

Conrad

Gunny Sergeant
Apr 28, 2006
1,342
62
48
TX
#14
Great feedback and Vudoo is an awesome company. Really good people working there.

I’ll try some different ammo to potentially help my problem. I was shooting positions off a ladder and then would lean the rifle muzzle up against the ladder when taking a break. Next time I’ll run the bipod on it and set it down horizontally.


Hey Guys, just thought I'd jump in here quickly to comment on what you're seeing. First, thank you for being Vudoo customers and putting your confidence in what we do and how we do it, I'm always available here and the St George crew is available via phone, email, etc., if you ever have questions.

As far as running the Vudoo suppressed goes, yes, it's valid that standing your rifle vertical with a suppressor mounted dumps particles down the bore and it lands in the action making the bolt difficult to close. The issue is more prominent the dirtier the suppressor, so some may see it and like myself, some may never see it; just depends on how dirty the suppressor is and how you handle your rifle. I've never cleaned my suppressor, but I never have a reason to orient my rifle vertically. And to answer a question above, suppressor design can contribute to how much is dumped back into the bore, as does ammo, barrel length, etc.

So, why does it happen in the Vudoo and maybe not others? Basically, design intent dictates overall functionality. As I've stated in other threads, rimfire platforms are considerably more complex than centerfire and when it comes to manufacturing, complexity is expensive (hence the reason a lot of competing companies have similar designs). In the early days of rimfire design, suppressors weren't as widely used as they are now and frankly, some very old companies didn't start offering factory threaded muzzles until more recently. That feature was dictated by the market, not the manufacturer, so if the manufacturer says the design intent originally included suppressor use, it's likely not completely true and I consider the absence of this issue in those platforms to be more of an accident.

The design intent of the V-22 as a repeater focused on one thing first: ACCURACY. So, there are certain features that support this and the flat breech face is part of it. The tolerance between the end of the bolt nose and the flat breech face is incredibly tight, so it doesn't accommodate much garbage between the two surfaces. Are there other ways to do it and are there others that do it differently (such as a coned breech)? Of course, but the coned breech also has it's issues/draw backs (such as the inability to dry fire without damaging the barrel) and there are reasons I didn't use it in the V-22. Overall, I didn't shy away from the inherent complexity of the rimfire action for the sake of creating a cheaper platform.

Going forward: One of the beautiful things about Vudoo is, I get to play as much as I want. This means, while the guys in St George are working hard to meet unprecedented eight week delivery schedules, I'm in the lab working on the next things. One of these things is a new breech design, which has been in testing for nearly a year. I'm not saying here that we're introducing it, so please don't swamp the St George crew with calls, emails, etc., I'm just saying that we're not standing still. IF the new breech design falls within my original intent while enhancing overall performance, we'll incorporate it into future production. Until then, just be mindful of something I'm willing to speak openly/publicly about and know we're constantly supporting our customer base. Right now, it's as simple to deal with as dumping the garbage out of your suppressor at the end of each range session, or whatever menial effort you find mitigates/eliminates the condition.

Thanks again Guys and as usual, I'm always available if anyone has questions or needs anything at all.

MB
 
Likes: RAVAGE88

Sieg

Sergeant of the Hide
Jun 14, 2018
194
291
63
#15
The cone type baffles like my Tactical Solutions Axiom appear to capture a lot of debris. This was after 700+ rounds of CCI SV 0035 and SK Std+. The SK lube appears to wet the internals which most likely aides in retaining debris.


FWIW - The best cleaning method I've found is to boil the baffles and end caps in straight white distilled vinegar for 10-12 minutes, let cool and brush under hot water with a nylon firearms brush. The vinegar breaks down the carbon to a soft sludge and makes for easy brushing.
My first cleaning attempt was with Simple Green Aircraft Cleaner in my RCBS Ultrasonic at 140* for two 24 minutes sessions...… I had to scrape the carbon off with a nylon tool...... that was a major PITA.
 
Likes: RAVAGE88
Sep 16, 2009
4,205
283
83
#16
That is the price of precision. Tight tolorences don't do well with debris.
I like my Vudoo but don't shoot it suppressed.
 

Snuby642

Sergeant of the Hide
Feb 11, 2017
576
234
43
#17
You may consider this ammo.
AMERICAN EAGLE RIMFIRE SUPPRESSOR
https://www.federalpremium.com/prod...le/american-eagle-rimfire-suppressor/ae22sup1
10 rouds at 50yd, ruger 10/22 sparrow suppressor.

Gun was still fouled with match lube residue, lots.
The fliers were do to high cal brake shooting next to me on a connected bench.
Will clean the bore and try for a better groop soon but was fairly happy with initial sight in.
They claim to shoot cleaner suppressed, we will see.

20180629_115556.jpg
 

Snuby642

Sergeant of the Hide
Feb 11, 2017
576
234
43
#19
Well I cleaned the bore and my groups got worse not better with the A E suppress ammo.
Don't think I will continue to copper it up.

Evedently my E R Shaw barrel won't eat tofu or shoot copper coated anything worth a damn.
I figure maybe something to do with the tight tube tolerance, feeds and ejects most anything.
Has a (benz ?) Chamber so not the vudoo tight chamber (hassle).

Is the tight tube just not compatible with copper coated even though its standard velocity.
Figure I will retry cci sv and properly let the barrel grease up a couple hundred rounds before I make a decision on it.

If the only difference in cci sv and the green tag is lot controll and inspection tolerance the lead, powder and lube will be the same?
I am guessing I can swap between the 2 without change except in group sizes, more fliers?
For 10 -15 cents a shot price difference and availability it mite be a go.
 
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Conrad

Gunny Sergeant
Apr 28, 2006
1,342
62
48
TX
#20
I recevied some Lapua Center-X. Shoots great, but I get the same amount of debri out of my 22 TD when I remove it and knock it out. It is, what it is, just something to be conscientious of and rock on.
 
Sep 14, 2003
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32
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East Tennessee
#21
What's the opinion of the Spectre from Silencerco? I'm thinking of picking one up as part of the Buy One Get One that Silencerco has going right now. I thought it would make more sense to get it since it's rated for all of the rimfires where the Warlock is only rated for 22 LR.
 

deltawiskey

Full Member
Feb 13, 2017
412
54
28
Wisconsin
#22
What's the opinion of the Spectre from Silencerco? I'm thinking of picking one up as part of the Buy One Get One that Silencerco has going right now. I thought it would make more sense to get it since it's rated for all of the rimfires where the Warlock is only rated for 22 LR.
I have had one for a while, Love it! I shoot 17hmr, and 22lr in pistols and rifles with it and it works awesome!
 

RonA

Sergeant
Jul 10, 2011
294
14
18
63
Browns Valley CA
#24
I tried several different types of ammo in my suppressed bolt .22. Ended up going with the Gemtech . Shoots the best in mine, and doesn't run slow like some of the really light loads available.
 
Jan 2, 2018
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#25
What's the opinion of the Spectre from Silencerco? I'm thinking of picking one up as part of the Buy One Get One that Silencerco has going right now. I thought it would make more sense to get it since it's rated for all of the rimfires where the Warlock is only rated for 22 LR.
Great 22 can. I'd definitely get the spectre over the warlock, warlock is made of aluminum, spectre is all stainless steel. Which one do you think will last longer and take more abuse? I've had my spectre for a few years now and it is my most used can. It's clik-to-assemble CTA cup baffles are easy to remove and clean, avoiding the whole "I can't get the suppressor apart because the baffles are carbon locked" fiasco.



As to the "crud falling out of the suppressor back into the action", I haven't really noticed that with any of my 22 cans on either bolt or 10/22 actions. Most of the ammo I shoot is of the Lapua/SK varieties and it tends to "cake on" the suppressor baffles without any loose debris typically when I finally get around to cleaning them after 1k-1.5k rounds. This includes matches where the rifle is vertically racked between rounds. I'll keep an eye open for this in the future.

My Vudoo has a heavy bolt occasionally during the rounds of a match, but it is horizontal when that happens so that rules out the suppressor debris theory. I'll be shooting another ARA this coming saturday with the Vudoo, if I get any stiff bolts I'll pull the un-fired round and see what is happening this time around. In The ARA match the rifle stays horizontal in a one piece mechanical rest for the whole match, so no chance for falling debris back into the bolt area.
 
Likes: deltawiskey
Jul 7, 2005
660
97
28
67
Western Kansas
#26
I had a SWR Spectre II when I bought a V-22 action & built a rifle around it, so as soon as I had it barreled & in the stock, I started shooting it with that can. IIRC, it was with this can attached that I first noticed a bunch of RF fouling crud actually blocking the bore when I opened the bolt while holding the rifle vertical, muzzle up. Rather than dick around with it in the field, I drove the quarter mile back to the shop and gave the crud the 'heave-ho' with a single blast of compressed air out of the hose. After inspecting the action thoroughly, I determined there was no more fouling in the lug seats or anywhere else I could see, so resumed shooting with it. I've since gotten the stamp back for the TBAC 22TD, and am using this can exclusively on the V-22. I get a bunch of the crunchy grunge out of either can after removing it with the rifle level, then gently tapping the thread mount end of the can on any of the softer plastic or rubber parts of my truck. It's not that hard to remember to avoid elevating the muzzle too much while shooting suppressed after seeing how much of that stuff there was in the bore of the Krieger bbl.

I cleaned the baffles of both cans with Zep Purple Industrial De-greaser & Cleaner, followed by heating the baffles to 195*F in the oven prior to dunking them individually into a glass jar full of DOT #5 bf. I drain & shake the excess DOT #5 off before reassembly, and it keeps the fouling soft enough to brush off or rub off with a paper towel. I wondered if this DOT #5 treatment was contributing to the build-up of crud at the rear of the can that would fall off by merely elevating the muzzle, but then decided that even if this was the case, the baffles are so darned easy to clean after doing the brake fluid treatment that I'm not going to stop using it.
 
Aug 4, 2017
60
12
8
#27
Try a soak in CLR (calcium, lime, rust) for a couple hours. The deposits come off with tap water and a soft brush.
 

Sieg

Sergeant of the Hide
Jun 14, 2018
194
291
63
#30
First trip to the range to get acquainted with my Vudoo.


After 10 rounds to bore sight at 25 and 50 yds and 8 - 5 shot groups at 50 yds. 2 dry patches down the bore and shot these 2 shot groups @50 yds with SK Standard Plus and a Tactical Solutions Axion suppressor. I felt most of the strays were on me due to Yellow Jackets harassing me and eye box/cheek weld issues due to the loaner optic mount being too far forward. Our range also has challenging wind patterns, usually 3-7 mph and frequently will come from all 4 points on the compass while shooting 50 rounds.


Next trip to the range I'll shoot the same scenario with and without the suppressor using SK Std+ and CCI SV 0035 and see how it prints.

One thing I'm certain about...… the Vudoo is a real pleasure to shoot. Couldn't be more pleased with this function/performance of the rifle. (y)
 
Likes: Snuby642

Sieg

Sergeant of the Hide
Jun 14, 2018
194
291
63
#33
FWIW - Here's a with and without my Axiom can shooting CCI SV 0035 at 50 yards today.



This rifle is a lot better than I am...…. currently. :)
 
Jan 2, 2018
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#34
Quit shooting suppressed with my Vudoo.
Yea I am done shooting my vudoo suppressed as well. Over the last month I've been watching for the "suppressor debris falling back into action" phenomenon and it is true. Happens with with the Dead Air mask, Silencerco Sparrow and SpectreII. That debris winds up in the bolt face adn to a lessor extent the lugs making for a difficult bolt close.

Turns out I have the same problem with the 10/22's and CZ455 as well, but the 10/22's don't really care about it as they just dump it all out the bottom of the action or the magazine and it might explain an accuracy issue with the CZ, so good catch to the posters in this thread.
 

Sieg

Sergeant of the Hide
Jun 14, 2018
194
291
63
#35
I've been checking my Axion occasionally by tapping it threaded end down on the bench, shaking it and then muzzle down. I get minimal debris after a few hundred rounds of .22lr and 50-100 of .17hmr through the Axiom. That's when shooting CCI SV and Hornady .17 ammo. SK Standard+ lube appears to build up in paste form on the bottom of the cylinder (Image in post 15), though I haven't tested solo with a clean can.

What type of baffle systems do the DA Mask, Sparrow, and Spectre II use?
 
Jan 2, 2018
127
46
28
#36
What type of baffle systems do the DA Mask, Sparrow, and Spectre II use?
Mask and spectre are click together cups (CTA: click to assemble) , the sparrow is a machined monocore. I had less debris with the sparrow, about 1/2 what the other two dump back down the barrel.
 

Peterpan

Sergeant of the Hide
Jul 20, 2018
108
35
28
#39
Depending on how well your suppressor is made, I put mine on a 22-250 once in a while and run some rounds through it. I’m always surprised at how much crap breaks loose. Having said that I run a 223 rated can on my 22 lr. If your running a 22 lr suppressor don’t do it lol.
 
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