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  • Killin Science and bullet selection for the layman


    [I have been at the PC for 5 hours writing this article. I MUST get away from the computer. i will edit for grammer etc. later. -TM ]

    Killin Science and bullet selection for the layman.
    A fun but educational look at terminal ballistic science.
    by “TresMon”( ‘net name) Tres Monceret

    [I received the following question in e-mail and it turn it sparked an article.Around here “articles happen.”]

    “”Out of curiosity,*how can a game warden tell if a deer was shot with*a muzzleloader or a rifle?””


    Well besides the obvious anybody would know- the entry wound size & shape- it's forensics. *A low velocity big bullet is more of a mauler internally; it's just kind brute force mashing its way through the meat. *A high velocity rifle bullet kills more actually by hydraulics than hemorrhage (blood loss/circulatory damage.) Most modern hunter knows that "energy kills" that is energy is the biggest baddest killer. *They just don't know how to explain it. *

    All animals are mostly water. So think of this. Imagine hanging a water proof full sized punching bag up outside thats full of 3 day old mash taters. You know the ones that have increased their Viscosity some. *Now shoot a scalpel through it.*

    What did we observe? *The bag did not move/swing much. It was not a dramatic looking event. *We have a hole through both sides of our bag that is leaking pretty fast. And if we were to dissect the bag and Mash Taters we would see merely slits through the wound "CHANNEL". But the "hole" or wound channel is tight. Meaning from the elasticity of the M.Taters "meat" the channel drew back up on itself, not 100% but mostly.

    There's your broad head,spear & Atlatl killed deer. (Yes spearing is STILL legal and actually STILL done in a few states. A few of my hard core wilderness survival friends do it.) This is *death by hemorrhage alone, or bleeding out, internally & a little externally. Sure the deer experienced some energy, but no more than a major league batter getting beamed in the shoulder by a fast pitch. Not enough to kill or long term injure.

    So now let's move to big bore pistols & muzzle loaders.*So we shoot our hanging tater bag with a .357mag, .41 magnum .44 Magnum Etc. or a Front Stuffer. *

    Now we have energy doing some amount more of the killing than hemorrhage. And we have not just a wound channel now but also wound cavity.*What did we observe? The front of the bag was displaced or caved in a good bit from the energy. The whole bag is swinging some back and forth. *We have a small hole all the way through our bag that did not seal back up. This is our wound channel. But the front side of the hole or entry side is where our channel is larger than bullet diameter *and it slowly tapers down as we move deeper through the channel. *This is the PERMANENT wound cavity. To explain Temporary & Permanent wound channel I need to explain the hydraulic effect of a bullet.

    The hydraulic effect of a bullet hitting the watery meat and core of a animal: Newton's law says "reckin for every tough lick thar's a equal & *opposite nuther tough lick." *So we observed in our Front Stuffer shot on the bag the surface of the bag was displaced. Thats energy from the bullet being dispersed into our target. So lets say we were shooting a .451" *45 cal. slug. *If we shot a basically 1/2" piece of metal at the tater sack how come the displacement on the surface was so much larger in diameter than the slug? Energy!

    Energy does amazing things. Enter the temporary wound cavity. *When a moderate to very high energy round enters our taters (meat/flesh) the energy damages and destroys tissue far larger than the bullet diameter. Initially energy from the bullet "blows" a quite large cavity or space in the tissue. *But it does not stay this size of a space. The immediate size of the empty space or cavity is called the Temporary cavity. From the amazing engineering God designed into flesh- due to the elasticity of the flesh it will attempt to shrink back down and come back together. So this big hole or cavity we blew into the near side of our tater sack will immediately begin to shrink. And again we learned this is temporary cavity. But we transferred such a large amount of energy into the flesh that we destroyed much of it. Due to this though it will shrink back down a good bit, it will not shrink all the way back down to the actual bullet diameter hole the bullet drilled into the meat. This is called the PERMANENT wound cavity. *Here's a pretty good example of a temporary, permanent wound cavity and wound channel: [I'm referring to wound "channel" as the small bullet diameter hole that goes beyond the cavities.]





    So why does the permanent cavity exist far larger than the actual diameter of the bullet that created it? Why does the Temp. Cavity not shrink all the way to the physical bullet diameter that passed through? Well we already said because the immediate tissue was destroyed but lets take a closer look. We'll recap for a second.

    We shot a scalpel through our 100 lb. Mashed Tater filled punching bag. We ended up with a snug little leaking hole. This will kill the tater bag, but slower and it certainly will not be dramatic.

    We shot our bag with a front stuffer. *Cool. For a split second we caved in the front of the bag. The whole bag is swinging. More Cool. Now we got a *little bitty "junior sized" foot ball shaped hole in the near side of the bag/taters and a 1/2" hole all the way through. Way cool.

    Now let's shoot our tater bag deer simulator with an American favorite: the .270 Winchester. *If we could see the hit in slow motion we would see the waves of energy rippling the surface of the bag. It literally look's like the concentric rings coming from a stone dropped in still water. We significantly displaced the surface of our tater sack. It's swinging pretty good overall. *We go examine and see we have a full sized+ football shape "wound cavity" in the near side of tater sack and a bullet diameter hole the rest of the way through.

    *[cavity dimensions and "football size" references are not literal, nor dimensionally accurate nor have I ever shot “mashed taters.” They are merely used to illustrate to the readers mind familiar mediums and sizing/shapes, while conveying whats happening on/in target accurately overall. It's hard to draw a series of pictures in a readers mind, but in doing so with these familiar shapes/references I feel I have transferred the actual science and ongoings to the reader accurately.]

    So what is happening in that instant the bullet transfers energy into the medium? That's the hydraulics we were talking about. Essentially a violent water column radiating out from the bullet entry point.*

    From scalpel to bullet "energy wand":
    So the scalpel made no real cavities at all. Our high velocity rifle round made a serious temporary and permanent *wound cavity. So let me illustrate what this hydraulic water column does. Back to our hanging 100lb. mashed tater filled punching bag. This time we hang our tater sack in the bay of the high pressure car wash. We again are armed with our .270 Win but let's dump out our taters and fill our bag with well cooked green peas. These green peas represent cells. The individual cells tissue is made of. *When we introduce energy into tissue from a blow the water contained goes the equal & opposite direction,*vilonetly! Think of if we dropped $1.50 into the slot to activate the high pressure sprayer of the car wash. We stick the wand down into the peas and pull the trigger. What happens? The water pressure basically makes the immediate peas seemingly vanish, the closest mangle and the furthest effected by the water burst and leak.

    Thats a good verbal picture of what is happening to tissue when massive amounts of energy are transferred from a bullet to flesh due to hydraulic energy forces, and it's quite understandable that as amazing as bodies are- some tissue, i.e. the permanent wound cavity does not recover.

    So thus is the ways we actually kill targets. So what do we do wit this information? We wish we our military could shoot terrorists with expanding hunting type bullets! We can use our new found knowledge of energy transfer from bullets to mash taters to better select the weight and style of bullet we shoot. Bullet selection all depends the on the average size, weight and range of the mash tater sack we are hunting.

    You see there are three schools of thought with hunters. The first is the antiquated and Neanderthal thought: "make the biggest "hole" [wound CHANNEL] you can -all the way through the animal to produce maximum amount of (blood) leakage."

    And the second sounds so clean, sterile & harmless on the printed page:

    -Transfer all the energy.-

    Sounds ho-hum,boring.(But it’s incredibly devastating & violent!!!)

    The third school got high in the bathroom and don’t care. 
They just like to hunt.

    Think of this. A bullet moves because energy has been imparted to and into it. Once it leaves the bore pressure is relieved from the firing system and the bullet got what it gets and is now leaking energy slowly to the really low viscosity water we shoot through called air. If *you ever have a conversation with a bullet it will refer to same as drag.*If it runs out of energy it would stop forward motion in place, spent. (If there were no gravity.) *There! You get it! *Wait, you look uncertain. I'll give it to you: you want the bullet to stop. IN the target. Why? Transfer. Energy transfer. 100% wicked violent energy transfer. *You see if your bullet regardless of caliber, diameter, weight or speed passes through the target and travels beyond, it did not give you it's all. Any energy *the bullet had to travel beyond our tater sack was wasted, we could have dumped that left over energy into the mashed taters as well for even more/bigger car wash wand effect!!

    So there it is- with a high velocity high energy round we want a complete energy dump into our wild free range 12 tined Tater Sac we so carefully stalked. Thats why there are so many bullets to choose from for a given caliber. Enter bullet (a.) design & (b.) weight...

    Real world example. I know a well meaning green horn who was new to shooting, new to rifles and new to hunting. He went on a coyote sized furry predatorial tater sack hunt with a friend and was hooked. So he decides he needs a good rifle, camo and a few calls. *Talking about his new love on the job a co-worker offered to sell him a like new ultra- light weight 300 Win Mag complete with scope, for a incredibly low price. "Because it will kick yur teeth out the guy said." So our young green horn figured 1. "He could take it" and two all that power would for sure blast a dog sized fur covered flea infested mange pocked Mashed Tater Sack into the next Siriometer or so. He took the rifle.

    So Mr. G. Horn went and bought some 300WM ammo, on sale. *Winchester 180 grain Power Point factory loads. A real world MOOSE load. (He did not do the math I'm sure, I'll do it for him: 3500 ft. lbs. of car wash wand effect at the muzzle.) Looking at the big shiney menacing ammo I'm sure Mr. Horn was sure it would blast the doggish creature for at least a siriometer!!

    So after a while he calls me. “Man this thing really-REALLY kicks!” I chuckled having been there done that in my youth. I threaded his barrel and installed a nice muzzle break. He was really happy with the recoil reduction and off he went. Soon enough he made his first “I got one!” phone call to a buddy. But he was quick to tell me the critter just limped about 20 paces and died. No siriometer. I chuckled having been there and done that in my youth and explained bullet selection.

    You see had if Mr. Horn had hand loaded him some little bitty 110 grain Sierra hollow points at a anemic (for the Win Mag with this bullet) 3200 fps, he would have opened up that critter like a book displaying it’s most every deep and inner thing, literally. True the little bullet would had a good bit less energy: 3200 lbs. But it would given Mr. G. Horn it’s all!
    The little bullet would have disintegrated in the critter for a 100% energy dump, where as the Moose bullet that was actually used likely zipped right through with no “upset” commonly called expansion or mushrooming on behalf of the bullet in the 35 lb. target. After all that load was designed to hold together, burrow deep and energy dump in a dangerous big boned hardy built massive Tater Sac weighing upwards of 1700 pounds for the Alaskan-Yukon variety.

    Speaking of bullet upset, their is fascinating engineering that goes into bullet design. You see that dumb piece of metal we call “bullet” has no intelligence nor on board computer but must juggle the depth-of-penetration/ energy dump act to perform it’s best. And to compound this complexity it must do it anywhere in an extreme velocity spread. If we shoot our massive moose tater sack and the bullet disintegrates on the shoulder muscle we have wounded him, he’ll run off and we may have lost him and wasted the meat & and if he succumbs to the wound the life. If it zips through him without hitting a vital organ we again have wounded him and likely lost and wasted him. Enter bullet engineering.
    A bullet upsets and begins to expand. This ever increasing blunt frontal diameter increase increases the difficulty for the bullet to penetrate. This rate of expansion must be carefully controlled through inherent design to allow the bullet to expand slow enough so it can burrow 1. deep enough to get past the near side muscle and into the vital organs but 2. fast enough to not completely pass through the animal thereby wasting energy. That would be a feat of engineering if the bullet hit the mash tater sac at the same speed every time. But it’s always impacting at differing speeds. If we engage our 1700 pound marsh wading mashed tater sac at 220 yards the bullet will impact at far greater velocity than it will if fired from a long range hunter engaging our swamp tater at 1106 yards. Either way, the bullet must not under or over expand to penetrate sufficiently and energy dump. And amazingly they get It right most of the time!

    In conclusion bigger is not always better in regards to quick, clean ethical kills wether the subject of discussion be “which cartridge” or “which bullet.”

    Regards,
    “TresMon”

    This article took considerable time & effort. It is presented here for free. Enjoy! However if anyone feels motivated to express appreciation a donation can be sent to the paypal account nativemant@yahoo.com.
    Thanks!
    Tres
    -Tres @ WildernessMeans.com

    Check my website for articles, training info, etc!

    NOTE: I'm a machinist, gunsmith, writer, and instructor of many outdoor topics looking for gainful employment in any geographical cool place to live. Resumes Available.

    John 14:6 2TIMothy 3:16

  • #76
    Re: Killin Science and bullet selection for the layman

    Very nice!

    Comment


    • #77
      Re: Killin Science and bullet selection for the layman

      Another great post, thanks again for your time and effort.
      If only accurate rifles are interesting, I am looking to be fascinated.

      Comment


      • #78
        Re: Killin Science and bullet selection for the layman

        Great visual reading. I'll pass this article on.

        Comment


        • #79
          Re: Killin Science and bullet selection for the layman

          Originally Posted By: Zen Archery
          Great visual reading. I'll pass this article on.


          You should pass on the quoted text from DocGKR, littletoes post, and phil1's post. TresMon's original post is absolutely incorrect. The idea that hydrostatic shock is the primary mode of incapacitation has been disproven several times over and it is laughable as anything other than shady marketing when companies try to use it as a feature of their product. The only place hydrostatic shock has been shown to be any significant contributor is cranial trauma.

          Seriously, read the stuff on the net that DocGKR has written on the subject, you know, since he has degrees and actual empirical data and is all scientific and is an internationally recognized expert on terminal ballistics....

          No offense intended to TresMon, he obviously spent some time on his post, but like his signature says, he's a machinist and a gunsmith. Maybe I missed the line about being an internationally recognized ballistics expert?

          Comment


          • #80
            Re: Killin Science and bullet selection for the layman

            Originally Posted By: Khavic
            [quote=KYpatriot

            I agree 100% that there is a temporary cavity caused by a hydrostatic effect...its just that I dont believe it really does anything. All the tissue inside the body of any animal is extremely flexible. Sure it may cause some damage, at the least would certainly cause bruising if the animal lived long enough, but that energy is easily absorbed by a large game animal and the animal will certainly die from the primary wound channel well before any damage by hydraulics could do the job.

            It is undisputed fact that hemorrhage kills everytime if unchecked. So the question is whether or not hydrostatic shock is adding anything significant to speed with which the animal dies. Now I have heart shot whitetail with 308 with 165 Accubonds, which usually exit with at least a fist size exit wound at the ranged I usually shoot. Energy abounds, and the wound cavity is impressive. I have seen a heartshot buck run 90 to 100 yards. I have also had shots in which the permanent wound channel misses the heart by a couple inches. In the case I am thinking of, a 60 yard shot, the wound channel was just off the heart, placing the heart well within the area affected by the temporary wound cavity. It had to be subjected to as much hydrostatic shock as a 308 can muster, yet the heart was completely undamaged. That deer was anchored because both front shoulders were broke but it kicked for 15 seconds or so. I guarantee with good shoulders it would be running.

            My point is, hydrostatic shock didn't do anything in either case...a deer ran with the entire top half of its heart unattached...a deer lived a similar time with a shot right next to the heart that should have damaged that organ severely if the shock effect was significant, but it didn't.

            The only exception I can think of would be a bullet that barely misses the spine in which the temporary wound cavity stretches or stuns the spine. It would have to be very close, I dont have any shots where I have done that so I'm not even sure that would work. Otherwise, I believe the permanent wound cavity does 90% of the damage and 100% of the killing, and that the mechanism is hemorrhage.


            I agree 100% that it is the loss of blood that kills. One of the two elk I dropped in their tracks was a long shot that I fired high on. (I have since purchassed a range finder) The other was on a steep hill facing away. I would assume that you are correct and that the jolt to the spinal cord is what dropped them. My assertion is that the rapid expansion of the ballistic tipped bullet is what caused the extra shock and turned what could have been a difficult track into a simple recovery.

            The point is that there is plenty of room inside the body cavity and internal organs of an animal for it to bleed out entirely into it's own body. A bruise is formed because of blood traveling to an injured area to heal. The more injured area the more blood being channeled away from the brain. The bigger hole you punch on the inside the more veins/arteries you disrupt.

            As for having two holes for blood to leave the body that is fine for tracking, but has no effect on the loss of blood within the system. There are few veins and no arteries running along the outside of the ribs of a big game animal. The exit wound does little to bring the game down faster. Rapid expansion and fragments passing through soft internal organs does much more to cause the desired loss of blood. [/quote]

            With all due respect. I am not a doctor nor did I stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night or any other night. That said I have personally witnessed on not just a few but on well enough to call a good statistical sample that you are fundamentally wrong in your observations.

            Red:
            Inside a body cavity things are quite tight. Tight enough to cause pressure. A simple entry wound no matter how terrific can and will quickly plug or close and allow the blood pressure to equalize enough to slow its descent to zero. I can only postulate on this due to actual kills and the fact that EVERY time I did not have an exit wound the game left little to no blood that escaped from the body cavity. I shot one particular 7 pointer with the 70grSMK that litterally blew out a hunk of lung from the entrance wound as big as a jumbo hen egg. That deer did not bleed a drop and staggered 50yds before he fell. Others shot with that bullet ran twice as far and bled little to none, that 7 pointer was an exception. The tales of my 70gr experiment finally ended with a high shot on a large buck that ultimately survived to be killed two weeks later by another hunter, a story I am not proud of nor particulary fond of, due to the fact that it was a once in a lifetime buck. As I say I was young, dumb and easily impressed by the pablum of the monthly gun rags touting the need for speed. My opinions have been shaped by many years of my success and failure.

            Blue:
            I really have no scientific data to back this up, and I can only assume neither do you. I will clarify my blood trail theory. If two deer are shot and both run 100yds into thick cover, which will be easier to track and recover? The one with an exit wound or one with simply an entry wound? I can tell you without a shadow of doubt a simple entry wound, even if it is large enough to blow out lung pieces at the moment of impact, will bleed very little to none. I have seen it, experienced it and tracked them down with little to guide me. It made me one of the best trackers in eastern NC, even inducing late evening calls from veteran hunters like my late uncle, to find a deer they couldn't. Some were bad shots to begin but many were very good shots with heavy cartridges using fast bullets that were intended to dump energy inside the target. Most of these late forays were in search of a large trophy size deer for our region.

            Green:
            From my experience I have to respectfully disagree. When seconds count I prefer to err on the side that the faster I get the blood OUT of the body the better. A deer can run a long way in a few seconds on that I think we can agree...yes? Now elk are a different can of worms all together as far as I know. I never shot one but would imagine them to be rather tough if judging by nothing beyond size and hide thickness.
            I will retell this story as best I can.
            A good friend went to Montana a few years ago to hunt elk. He took his 308 loaded with 168gr AMax bullets. They have proved devastating on whitetails here and he had been told by folks out there they would be fine if he could shoot. His walls that are lined with shooting trophies will attest to the fact that he indeed can shoot. He got the opportunity for a bull at about 150yds ~700lbs on the hoof. He took the shot and it was perfect broadside in the boiler room, heart and lungs. The elk staggered and made a couple steps and stopped. He hit him again, he staggered and fell. He began to pack up and the bull stood back up, he put another one in him, the elk went down. He said well he is down now. He gathered his gear and the elk stood back up, he said the hell with this and put two more in him....he was down for good. Upon inspection all shots were within an 8 inch circle all in the vitals, no exit no blood. Had this elk run like hell at teh first shot this elk may have been found, but with grizzlies and wolves in the area I am betting it would have been a tense tracking job. In this case finding him fast would be PARAMOUNT.
            If you ask him today he will tell you a passthrough is absoluetely imperative. He has always been a pastrough proponent but now...even more so.
            "Those who would give up essential liberty for a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."-Benjamin Franklin
            "askhole"-Definition: One who asks questions about a subject, of those with vast knowledge, and then does what he wants anyway.
            "It's the "I just want to be in the game," budget-value-purchasing mentality. No telling what you'll see riding a Savage 110."-Enough Said
            "One must always name a weapon. You cannot trust that which you cannot call by name."-Abraham Setrakian

            Comment


            • #81
              Re: Killin Science and bullet selection for the layman

              TresMon is correct for light game and powerful high velocity firearms (I.E. for every 30lb of game animal weight you have somewhere in the order of 1000f/lb of energy).

              Alaskaguide is correct for large game.

              The confusion seems to be the bias from one side to the other on medium game. Here, unless you use a cartridge/bullet combination that provides a large deep permanent wound channel and has lots of spare energy to create a large temporary stretch cavity which creates brain aneurisms/nervous system damage, then Alaskaguide's theory is the most reliable. This is from a guy who was a "fast and light because it kills like lightening" guy who over time has shot under less than ideal circumstances and misplaced a shot or two, if it is a choice of one or the other I will take big, tough and slow first. That said big tough and fast is ideal if you are not shooting for meat and are not trying to take multiple animals in a short space of time.

              Comment


              • #82
                Re: Killin Science and bullet selection for the layman

                I am a believer in matching the bullet to the game hunted. I have a 6xc and started off shooting 115 DTAC bullets for coyotes. The bullet would zip through as if the dog was not hit. Changed to a ballistic tip 87 and they stay where shot.

                I have had the same experience with deer and elk.

                Thanks for the thread.

                Comment


                • #83
                  Originally posted by bluezx14 View Post
                  TresMon is correct for light game and powerful high velocity firearms (I.E. for every 30lb of game animal weight you have somewhere in the order of 1000f/lb of energy).
                  You do realize by using that math (1000 ft./lbs. for every 30 lbs. of game) that a 200 lb. whitetail would require 6,666 ft./lbs. of energy, right? Can anyone here name one popular North American hunting cartridge that can produce those numbers? How about any of the "big" popular African hunting cartridges? A 500 NE can put out around 5,000 ft./lbs. at the muzzle. Apparently that's not going to produce enough energy to drop that 200 lb. whitetail.

                  Energy is the ability to do work, and work is moving something against a force, like gravity or tissue. Tissue destruction is what important. Ceasing brain function is what results in death. That can be accomplished many ways (i.e. loss of blood flow/pressure, lack of oxygen, paralysis, or massive trauma to the brain tissue). To accomplish these examples one needs to put a bullet of adequate construction into the brain, heart, lungs, spine, or other vital organs. Shot placement is priority #1, bullet construction is #2. Everything else is arbitrary.

                  Think about this...it takes anywhere from 4,000-6,000 ft./lbs. of energy to crank a 90 mph fastball out 400 ft. Imagine that same baseball bat smacking you in the thigh. Is the tissue in your leg going to explode? Are your blood vessels going to explode? No!

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Originally posted by SavageSlayer View Post
                    You do realize by using that math (1000 ft./lbs. for every 30 lbs. of game) that a 200 lb. whitetail would require 6,666 ft./lbs. of energy, right? Can anyone here name one popular North American hunting cartridge that can produce those numbers? How about any of the "big" popular African hunting cartridges? A 500 NE can put out around 5,000 ft./lbs. at the muzzle. Apparently that's not going to produce enough energy to drop that 200 lb. whitetail.

                    Energy is the ability to do work, and work is moving something against a force, like gravity or tissue. Tissue destruction is what important. Ceasing brain function is what results in death. That can be accomplished many ways (i.e. loss of blood flow/pressure, lack of oxygen, paralysis, or massive trauma to the brain tissue). To accomplish these examples one needs to put a bullet of adequate construction into the brain, heart, lungs, spine, or other vital organs. Shot placement is priority #1, bullet construction is #2. Everything else is arbitrary.

                    Think about this...it takes anywhere from 4,000-6,000 ft./lbs. of energy to crank a 90 mph fastball out 400 ft. Imagine that same baseball bat smacking you in the thigh. Is the tissue in your leg going to explode? Are your blood vessels going to explode? No!
                    And, there are plenty of people taking eland and other big game (including Cape Buffalo) with archery equipment that delivers less KE than a 22lr at equivalent distances. Excepting brain hits, shot animals die from blood loss [PERIOD] Some drop quicker than others (even within a species). Animals are individuals like humans.
                    Last edited by hlee; 07-24-2013, 07:15 PM. Reason: spelling
                    Something topical, witty, and spuriously attributed- Someone famous and important.

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Originally posted by SavageSlayer View Post
                      You do realize by using that math (1000 ft./lbs. for every 30 lbs. of game) that a 200 lb. whitetail would require 6,666 ft./lbs. of energy, right? Can anyone here name one popular North American hunting cartridge that can produce those numbers? How about any of the "big" popular African hunting cartridges? A 500 NE can put out around 5,000 ft./lbs. at the muzzle. Apparently that's not going to produce enough energy to drop that 200 lb. whitetail.

                      Energy is the ability to do work, and work is moving something against a force, like gravity or tissue. Tissue destruction is what important. Ceasing brain function is what results in death. That can be accomplished many ways (i.e. loss of blood flow/pressure, lack of oxygen, paralysis, or massive trauma to the brain tissue). To accomplish these examples one needs to put a bullet of adequate construction into the brain, heart, lungs, spine, or other vital organs. Shot placement is priority #1, bullet construction is #2. Everything else is arbitrary.

                      Think about this...it takes anywhere from 4,000-6,000 ft./lbs. of energy to crank a 90 mph fastball out 400 ft. Imagine that same baseball bat smacking you in the thigh. Is the tissue in your leg going to explode? Are your blood vessels going to explode? No!

                      Originally posted by SavageSlayer View Post
                      You do realize by using that math (1000 ft./lbs. for every 30 lbs. of game) that a 200 lb. whitetail would require 6,666 ft./lbs. of energy, right? Can anyone here name one popular North American hunting cartridge that can produce those numbers? How about any of the "big" popular African hunting cartridges? A 500 NE can put out around 5,000 ft./lbs. at the muzzle. Apparently that's not going to produce enough energy to drop that 200 lb. whitetail.

                      Energy is the ability to do work, and work is moving something against a force, like gravity or tissue. Tissue destruction is what important. Ceasing brain function is what results in death. That can be accomplished many ways (i.e. loss of blood flow/pressure, lack of oxygen, paralysis, or massive trauma to the brain tissue). To accomplish these examples one needs to put a bullet of adequate construction into the brain, heart, lungs, spine, or other vital organs. Shot placement is priority #1, bullet construction is #2. Everything else is arbitrary.

                      Think about this...it takes anywhere from 4,000-6,000 ft./lbs. of energy to crank a 90 mph fastball out 400 ft. Imagine that same baseball bat smacking you in the thigh. Is the tissue in your leg going to explode? Are your blood vessels going to explode? No!
                      Understand what was written and why. This is the difference between a "varmint" and a "medium game" animal, unless you are producing varmint like terminal ballistics velocity itself is not the answer and can't be due to the impracticality of delivering the required amount of energy. The larger animals get the more that shift is away from velocity (and consequently energy) and towards sectional density combined with momentum. Velocity is still a factor in momentum, so can't be discounted entirely, though it's relevance is greatly diminished as the size of animal goes up. There is no golden formula and depending on the circumstances both "light and fast" or "slow and heavy" may be correct but in most circumstances the best option lies somewhere in between them. With a high velocity rifle round unless you can deliver somewhere in the order of that 30ft/lb of energy per lb into the animal (and keep most of it there) you need something more than shear energy dump and the resultant hydraulic effects, throughout the body, to kill reliably. As has been covered previously the primary one of those other things is to drop blood pressure through hemorrhage.
                      Oh with your baseball bat yes blood vessels in your leg will rupture when it hits you, that is what a bruise is, ruptured blood vessels. For the bat to impart 6000ft/lb of energy to the ball your baseball would need to be approaching super-sonic as it left the bat, that I would not want to be in-front of.

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Originally posted by bluezx14 View Post
                        Oh with your baseball bat yes blood vessels in your leg will rupture when it hits you, that is what a bruise is, ruptured blood vessels. For the bat to impart 6000ft/lb of energy to the ball your baseball would need to be approaching super-sonic as it left the bat, that I would not want to be in-front of.
                        1) The ruptured blood vessels would be the result of blunt force trauma (the bat physically crushing tissue) from actual contact. You are not going to bruise on the back side of your thigh because of "hydraulic shock" energy transfer. Energy is the ability to do work, and work is moving something against a force. Power is the rate at which energy is being transferred from one object to another.

                        2) Can you show me the math that backs up your claim for 6000 ft/lbs of energy being imparted to a baseball traveling 90 mph in the opposite direction also incorporating the distortion of both bat and ball upon contact resulting in said baseball approaching 1,126 ft/sec or 768 mph and what atmospheric conditions must exist for this to be so?

                        Hydraulic shock is a nice idea, but unless that energy is imparted to dense, heavy tissue that is not very elastic (i.e. brain, liver, kidney) it will not have much effect because non-dense tissue (i.e lungs, heart, muscle) is elastic and can stretch and expand and return to its normal state. Please see previous posts that link to actual scientific studies of terminal ballistics.

                        And, what’s more, the 30 ft/lbs of energy per lb. of animal or 1000 ft/lbs per 30 lbs of animal is completely bogus and ridiculous. Since when does it take 6000 + ft/lbs of energy to drop a 200 lb whitetail? There is no popular hunting cartridge in the world that can produce those numbers, and if we use that math a 2000 lb. Cape Buffalo would require 60,000 ft/lbs of energy. I guess since most everything on the planet, including elephant, has been killed with 22 lr (100-200 ft/lbs) and archery equipment (55 ft/lbs) the argument for "hydraulic shock" or "it takes x amount of energy per lb." pretty much collapses on itself.

                        Tissue destruction is what kills. Bullet placement is #1 and bullet construction is #2. Everything else is arbitrary.
                        Last edited by SavageSlayer; 08-16-2013, 12:12 PM.

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                        • #87
                          I have been an obsessed whitetail deer hunter for 25 years now and taken over 100 deer with both rifle and bow. I have read most of the last two pages. To the OP, I do NOT want a bullet that stops or "dumps 100% of its energy in the animal." I want a bullet like an Accubond that will pass all the way through the animal leaving a large exit hole. Some/most animals do not drop instantly after being shot with ANY bullet and if there is no exit (larger) hole then you are relying on the smaller entry hole for your blood trail. I also no longer use Barnes TTSX (Tipped Triple Shock) as I have had too many "Pencil" through deer without opening. The standard TSX (hollow points) have always expanded and performed flawlessly. Two years ago, I shot a stud 213 lb 8 pointer with a Barnes TTSX at 100 yards broadside right through the lungs. The buck ran 75 yards not leaving a drop of blood. He ran through a thicket with dozens of different trails running through it. The only way we found that buck was by walking every trail in the area the next morning. Had there been a blood trail, I would have taken that buck home saturday night instead of sunday morning as I looked for hours without success. If a bullet won't leave at least a quarter sized exit hole in a deer, I won't use it. I won't as much blood loss as possible as quickly as possible. Bergers may work great 95% of the time and drop more game than any other bullet but if they don't ALWAYS leave an exit hole, I won't hunt with them. I plan on hunting whitetails in Alberta in 2014 and my "overkill" 300 win MAGNUM will be shooting 180 grain Accubonds. In talking to the outfitter, this is also his recommended .30 bullet on 250-300+ lb deer. I think this bullet is the perfect hunting bullet on everything from whitetails to moose but thats just my opinion.
                          Last edited by EasternNChunter; 09-29-2013, 01:38 AM.

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                          • #88
                            Hey TresMon,
                            Newb here so pardon any ignorance. I'm elk hunting in Colorado and using a .300WIN. The 3 bullet options I have are a 208g AMAX, 210g Accubond L/R, and a 230g Berger Hybrid. Aside from picking the one that my rifle shoots best, which should I choose for the best terminal ballistics insuring a good, clean, quality kill? That was a great article, thanks for the education.
                            ~Josie
                            "No more than five to ten people in a hundred who die by gunfire in Los Angeles are any loss to society. These people fight small wars amongst themselves. It would seem a valid social service to keep them well-supplied with ammunition."

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                            • #89
                              Excellent read, thank you!

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                              • #90
                                Very informative and interesting read, thanks!

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