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  • Viet Nam Model 70's

    l read that model 70's in Viet Nam were used with either a Unertl scope or a 3-9 scope. The writer didn't specify what make of 3-9 scope that was. I was wondering if anyone knew the answer to that? Were they the Redfields? Or was it a different model
    thanks
    Kevin
    Only Irish coffee provides in a single glass all four essential food groups, alcohol, caffeine, sugar and fat.

  • #2
    It was a Japanese manufactured 3-9x40 riflescope, that apparently had Marine on it. Ed Kugler in his book, specifically mentions using the Model 70 with this scope.

    Comment


    • #3
      I thought it was a Redfield scope.

      Comment


      • #4
        There were also the cam-actuated Leatherwood ART scopes, which were about 3 - 9.... Technically I think 2.5 - 10. Made their appearance late in the conflict.

        I think there was also some stuff purchased at various PX's around VN.... and in USA. And put to good use whether the S4's liked it or not. But there are some folks here who know more firsthand... and I am sure they will chime in.

        Also, Satcong... there were Rediield 3 x 9's that were modified to match M118 ammo. I think. But I am going from memory here.

        Cheers,

        Sirhr
        Quidvis recte factum quamvis humile praeclarum

        Oderint dum metuant

        "You went full nerd with that reference." Thanks, I will wear that as a badge of honor!

        Comment


        • #5
          The Winchester M70 with Unertl 8X scope was used early in the Vietnam conflict by all branches but never officially adopted as a sniper rifle. Later, the Remington 700 with 3x9 green anodized scope with accu-range reticle was officially adopted. Here is my Winchester M70 with redfield 3x9 scope.

          Rick Jones
          MAJ, SF (Ret)

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Flint62a1 View Post
            l read that model 70's in Viet Nam were used with either a Unertl scope or a 3-9 scope. The writer didn't specify what make of 3-9 scope that was. I was wondering if anyone knew the answer to that? Were they the Redfields? Or was it a different model
            thanks
            Kevin
            The sniper variants of the M70 used the 8x Unertl scopes.

            The sporter M70's didn't use the Unertl.

            Both Chandler and Senich say that the Marines would purchase commercial scopes that were marked "Marine" and use those on their sporter M70's. These scopes were supposedly made in Japan and are 3-9x, but that's about all the known information on them. Unfortunately, no one really has any solid evidence that points to an exact manufacture of the "Marine" scope. If you find one, please let us know!

            There is also a well known photo of a soldier crossing a stream in Vietnam and he's holding a M70 sporter with a scope on it. I forget what scope it is, guys on other forums have picked the photo apart over the past decade. Looks like an M84 or something similar. Here's the photo:



            As far as I can tell, the Redfield greenies from the M40's were never used on the M70's. However, it's war and absolutely anything can happen, so I don't doubt that this combo may have been used by some Marine at some point. Along these lines, I decided to see what a M70 and Redfield greenie combo would look like, this is what I came up with:





            From the known USMC M70 serial number list in Death From Afar vol. 1:

            Last edited by USMCSGT0331; 05-18-2017, 12:33 AM.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by USMCSGT0331 View Post






              That dude is burdened.

              He took the concept of "butt pack" to the limit.

              A hard Corps Hunter. I hope he is well and enjoying his grandkids.
              "...But they would never find anything to beat the old Springfield ...the long sleek streamline, very slim but with potent bulges, all in the just exactly right places to give it that pugnaciously forward-leaning, eager look that marked the Springfield. Beside it, the M1 looked like a fat old man puffing with a lack of training...the two most beautiful things made in America were the ax-handle and the clipper ship? ...they should have added one more thing: The Springfield '03 rifle..."

              Comment


              • #8
                I can understand how the pic got ripped apart. First, sniper rifle AND radio. Radio carried outside the pack. The pack is a small ALICE (not buttpack) which still has a radio pouch in it. As do the mediums and large's (what I carried). In any case, that guy is going to go about 100 more meters before he gets a herniated disc.

                FWIW, the radio appears to be an AN-PRC-77. Also interesting is the rifle has a buttpad. Which only makes sense as they were available in the VN timeframe. My understanding though is the snipers used the original steel buttplate. Why?, that would hurt.
                Every shot serves a purpose, whether accurate or inaccurate. It will always tell you what you did, and did not do, right. Even if all you have is a fraction of a second to make it, learn from it. So the next one is even better.

                The pen is only mighty when it is backed by the sword.

                Comment


                • #9
                  I caught that it was an ALICE just kind of unorthodox to carry it that way. Im guessing he is on a long range patrol, probably moving only a short distance to cache the pack,than will move into hide with the only necessary tools - a radio and rifle. Or he is in an area of imminent contact and the intent will be to shed the ALICE and he needs to keep the important tools at hand - a radio and a rifle. Panning out there is probably a Lt ahead or behind him.

                  Marine Rec offices had the Win 70 sporters. Marines could sign them out for hunting or any lawful purpose. They would have been in full civie config to include the ramped front sight rear buckhorns and the rubber pad. Shooting VC/NVA would be a lawful purpose. Whether or not the "rec" guns made it into the field would be better answered by others.

                  Always interesting to see the things that were carried.
                  Last edited by pmclaine; 05-19-2017, 01:50 PM.
                  "...But they would never find anything to beat the old Springfield ...the long sleek streamline, very slim but with potent bulges, all in the just exactly right places to give it that pugnaciously forward-leaning, eager look that marked the Springfield. Beside it, the M1 looked like a fat old man puffing with a lack of training...the two most beautiful things made in America were the ax-handle and the clipper ship? ...they should have added one more thing: The Springfield '03 rifle..."

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Kugler said they had a choice of rifles a heavy model 70 with either the Unertl or a 3-9 scope. He chose the 3-9, this was in 66, they also had M1sniper rifles. On the cover is a photo of him with the rifle, it looks like the stock has a wide forend and it's definitely the 3-9 scope on it.
                    Only Irish coffee provides in a single glass all four essential food groups, alcohol, caffeine, sugar and fat.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I was an RTO for awhile when I came off the 60 crew. That 77 is on a 77 harness, so you can't carry both. I think this guy has the right idea, as I did something similar (BTW, on my 3rd back surgery). You cannot maneuver with an Alice on, especially with a PRC77, kic19, spare batteries, ammo and all your other shit. If shit kicks off, that dude is gonna cut the ruck off and get on with his killin'.
                      Happiness is One Ragged Hole, or A Bucket of Fried Chicken ;-)

                      Chris Hayes
                      Nashville, TN

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I was an RTO (Plt) for a while too. Unless we were on a special operation, I never got to carry the prick77 on the dedicated carry paci. Even so, we attatched a regular buttpack up tight under the radio if we needed to carry extra stuff. Otherwise, note my avatar, That's how I always carried the radio. And, it was waterproofed, I noticed his was not.

                        On a happy note, You could always get Monday Night Football with a prick77. Down in Ft. Stweart, it was 6565.
                        Every shot serves a purpose, whether accurate or inaccurate. It will always tell you what you did, and did not do, right. Even if all you have is a fraction of a second to make it, learn from it. So the next one is even better.

                        The pen is only mighty when it is backed by the sword.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I qualified shipboard enroute to 'Nam on the AN/PRC-25, and carried it on several night patrols out of the Northern Perimeter at Dong Ha in 1967. Looked partly the same as the photo in question, except I was probably good foot taller then the subject.

                          And...

                          If I had carried a bolt rifle, that hokey pack arrangement, and the Prick-25, I would probably have instantly become a candidate for a Section-8. IMHO, that is a staged photo for consumption by the home front.

                          When I carried the Prick-25, I shelved my M-14, and carried a .45; standard procedure in my Unit. I radio Op was supposed to be too busy with commo to concentrate of rifle marksmanship. One hand for the 45, the other for the handset.

                          Greg
                          Last edited by Greg Langelius *; 05-20-2017, 10:54 AM.
                          Good marksmanship is no accident.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I had one of those scopes back around 1990, When you turn the Zoom ring a secondary Crosshair comes out from behind the normal one.
                            Confused

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by sandwarrior View Post
                              ...Otherwise, note my avatar, That's how I always carried the radio....
                              The advantage of not being in Big Green. Spec Ops guys could do a lot of shit we never could. Namely, wearing patrol caps with the ruck on so you could actually lift your head to look through the sights if needed. Not possible with a Kevlar and a full pack while prone or prone~ish. Maneuvering with 60-130# of shit is suicide anyway.

                              They made us all shitcan our butt packs. Clinton's Army didn't wear anything that wasn't current issue. No butt packs. No jungle boots. God forbid you actually be able to move with extra ammo and chow when you have to cashe the rucksack, or have feet that dry. Fucking idiots....

                              I see a lot changed during the main efforts in Iraq and Afghanistan but I wonder how much damage 'ō was able to do his last few years. Kicking out guys with tattoos was sign #1 that it was getting ugly.
                              Happiness is One Ragged Hole, or A Bucket of Fried Chicken ;-)

                              Chris Hayes
                              Nashville, TN

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                I was in the 2/502 Inf 101st Abn Div 67-68. Each BN had a Recon Plt. I was with the Recondo's, the recon plt of the 2/502. We didn't wear helmets, we wore a black beret with the 101 Recon Patch. Useless except for wiping the sweat out of your eyes. Didn't wear the LBE either. Worked out of my ruck.



                                We had a sniper assigned to us for a bit, he carried a standard Model 70, in '06 with a fixed 4X Weaver, exactly like the top rifle in the below photo.

                                The AMU started using Model 70 Tgt Rifles in 308 in the mid to later 60s. The bottom rifle is one such rifle I got from the CMP Auction. It was Made in '65. I was set up with sight bases for an "across the course gun" and had blocks for the Unertl style scopes.

                                I never heard of and doubt the 308 Model 70s were used because that was about the time the AMU was fielding M21s. They were used on the rifle ranges.

                                Mine fields a Vortex 6-24 X 50. I use it in PR matches and HP 1000 yard any-rifle-any sight and with the Redfield Palma sights for the Any-rifle-iron-sights and a cross the course matches. Sucker shoots as good if not better then my RPR in 6.5 CM although I will confess I don't get the range with the 308 as I do with the 6.5.

                                I love my Winchesters, all of them.

                                Kraig Stuart
                                Distinguished Rifle Badge #1071
                                USAMU Sniper School, Oct '78

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Kraig,

                                  We all know the massive discontent on the civilian side for the post '63...fueled by Mr. Win 70 himself, Jack O'Connor. (added)

                                  What was the general opinion in the military about the change? Sometimes I hear it was a big deal. Other times I hear it was a non-issue to the services using M-70s. Being as it wasn't a main weapon maybe the services just never formed an opinion?
                                  Last edited by sandwarrior; 06-04-2017, 10:09 PM.
                                  Every shot serves a purpose, whether accurate or inaccurate. It will always tell you what you did, and did not do, right. Even if all you have is a fraction of a second to make it, learn from it. So the next one is even better.

                                  The pen is only mighty when it is backed by the sword.

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Originally posted by FatBoy View Post

                                    The advantage of not being in Big Green. Spec Ops guys could do a lot of shit we never could. Namely, wearing patrol caps with the ruck on so you could actually lift your head to look through the sights if needed. Not possible with a Kevlar and a full pack while prone or prone~ish. Maneuvering with 60-130# of shit is suicide anyway.

                                    They made us all shitcan our butt packs. Clinton's Army didn't wear anything that wasn't current issue. No butt packs. No jungle boots. God forbid you actually be able to move with extra ammo and chow when you have to cashe the rucksack, or have feet that dry. Fucking idiots....

                                    I see a lot changed during the main efforts in Iraq and Afghanistan but I wonder how much damage 'ō was able to do his last few years. Kicking out guys with tattoos was sign #1 that it was getting ugly.
                                    Yeah I read the Tattoo Regs last week which is stupid in a lot of ways, They won't be picking and choosing when the SHTF.

                                    John.
                                    Confused

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      I never had tattoos, but kicking people out for having them was total bullshit. Pretty much a Clinton thing to stand on the sideline and judge like he knew what he was doing...not.

                                      "People with tattoos can't serve, but people who drop their pants/zipper can do what they want."
                                      Every shot serves a purpose, whether accurate or inaccurate. It will always tell you what you did, and did not do, right. Even if all you have is a fraction of a second to make it, learn from it. So the next one is even better.

                                      The pen is only mighty when it is backed by the sword.

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Originally posted by sandwarrior View Post
                                        I never had tattoos, but kicking people out for having them was total bullshit. Pretty much a Clinton thing to stand on the sideline and judge like he knew what he was doing...not.

                                        "People with tattoos can't serve, but people who drop their pants/zipper can do what they want."
                                        wonder if "Monica" Clinton had Tattoos,, Oh wait Bill wouldn't Know would he, Lol.
                                        Confused

                                        Comment


                                        • #21
                                          It was Obama that did the shit.
                                          Happiness is One Ragged Hole, or A Bucket of Fried Chicken ;-)

                                          Chris Hayes
                                          Nashville, TN

                                          Comment


                                          • #22



                                            Originally posted by sandwarrior View Post
                                            Kraig,

                                            We all know the massive discontent on the civilian side for the post '63...fueled by Mr. Win 70 himself, Jack O'Connor. (added)

                                            What was the general opinion in the military about the change? Sometimes I hear it was a big deal. Other times I hear it was a non-issue to the services using M-70s. Being as it wasn't a main weapon maybe the services just never formed an opinion?
                                            I know the AMU and other service teams used a lot of post 64 Model 70s. I have a lot of Model 70s, pre/post and FNs. Accuracy wise there isn't a whole lot of difference with all due respect to Mr. O'Connor.

                                            I've bought two AMU post-64s from the CMP Auction Site, the 308 mentioned above and a 300 WM Barreled action. None of my Model 70s can compete with the 308 AMU gun. I put the barrowed action into the Bishop Stock of my 300 WM I used when I shot from the Guard. I didn't bed and fit it, as I got a fancy stock I'm working on for it. But it showed promise.

                                            The smoothest actions in my stable is my 1949 Model 70 and my FN Model 70. its a toss up between the two. Smooth actions are nice, but that doesn't necessary mean they are more accurate, for example nothing is as smooth as my 1898 Springfield Krag, but its not the most accurate rifle I have by a long shot.

                                            This is the first I've heard that the Services had an aversion to the post '64 Model 70s but then I've been out of the game for a while.

                                            Chad Dixon might be able to shed more light on the subject.

                                            In truth all of them shoot better then I do. I will say the AMU 308 Model 70 I have out shoots all my other rifles excluding my Mann device (Rem 700 in 5.56), including my 6.5 CM RPR. But to be honest I don't have the time behind the RPR that I do the Model 70.

                                            If I can find another Action, I'd kind of like to build a Model 70 in 6.5 CM.
                                            Kraig Stuart
                                            Distinguished Rifle Badge #1071
                                            USAMU Sniper School, Oct '78

                                            Comment


                                            • #23
                                              All due respect to Mr. Jack O'Connor as well. He loved the pre-'64 and wasn't going down without a fight when the change came. And, FWIW, while he wasn't a bullet designer, he certainly recognised the importance of diameter vs.weight vs
                                              speed in ballistics. Thus his many diatribes expounding the virtues of the .270. It was better when all the bullets were made the same. When it gets a 1-8" twist and long bullets, it may well be the front runner again.

                                              Over the years it did not appear to me that the services had issues. But, I asked as I do hear individuals talking about it. My AMU rifle is a post-'63 that was chambered in .30-338. I unknowingly rechambered it to .308 Norma. It shoots absolutely lights out. It's one rifle I have that is very difficult for me to shoot better than it can. It has the best bedding job I've ever seen, too.
                                              ​​​​
                                              Every shot serves a purpose, whether accurate or inaccurate. It will always tell you what you did, and did not do, right. Even if all you have is a fraction of a second to make it, learn from it. So the next one is even better.

                                              The pen is only mighty when it is backed by the sword.

                                              Comment


                                              • #24
                                                My understanding was the complaints about post vs pre 64 focused on two things....

                                                1. The loss of "craftsmanship" with pressed in checkering, cast metal instead of milled and utilizing less expensive construction methods. Sure I can understand this who wants less but what if less translates into more precise manufacturing and tighter tolerances. Seems to be a plus for making accurate shots. Probably wouldn't concern the military as long as it shoots.

                                                2. The loss of controlled feed and the claw extractor was a hazard to people hunting dangerous game. Assuming "other people" to be dangerous game than it could be concerning to think of a fail to feed when your round pops out of the mag box lips and it doesn't go in the chamber. Big dangerous game hunters want that round getting captured under the claw and positively chambered even if the shooter happens to be loading the gun upside down. I guess it's a legit concern but has anyone heard any issues with push feed in 50 plus years of Remington 700 use by the military?
                                                "...But they would never find anything to beat the old Springfield ...the long sleek streamline, very slim but with potent bulges, all in the just exactly right places to give it that pugnaciously forward-leaning, eager look that marked the Springfield. Beside it, the M1 looked like a fat old man puffing with a lack of training...the two most beautiful things made in America were the ax-handle and the clipper ship? ...they should have added one more thing: The Springfield '03 rifle..."

                                                Comment


                                                • #25
                                                  pmc,

                                                  Reverse those issues in order of importance and that is exactly it.

                                                  I don't think it was widespread knowledge at the time, but that was when Winchester went to hammer forged barrels from cut rifled.
                                                  Every shot serves a purpose, whether accurate or inaccurate. It will always tell you what you did, and did not do, right. Even if all you have is a fraction of a second to make it, learn from it. So the next one is even better.

                                                  The pen is only mighty when it is backed by the sword.

                                                  Comment

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