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  • Long Range AR-15 Build - Advice Needed

    I am planning my first AR-15 long-range build and have been combing through the archives here and elsewhere trying to educate myself. I understand that the barrel, bolt, and trigger have the biggest impact on accuracy. My biggest question concerns the receivers that will be the heart of the build. I believe I need an over-built upper to add rigidity to the upper but other than the VLTOR I am not sure which receivers are good candidates.

    The gun will be shot predominantly from a bench or in the prone so I don't mind a heavier rig if it means greater accuracy potential. I will handload all ammunition. Price isn't the biggest concern but it is a consideration.

    I would appreciate any critiques and/or feedback you might be able to provide.
    • Krieger 20" DCM HBAR 7.7 twist SS barrel chambered in 223 Wylde
    • JP Enhanced Bolt
    • Timney Calvin Elite Trigger
    • Seekins SP3R V3 rail
    • Seekins Low profile adj gas block
    • A2 Buffer assembly
    • Magpul PRS stock
    • LaRue QD mount scope base
    • Ergo Grip hand grip with palm shelf
    • Rifle length gas tube
    • Charging handle
    Plus
    • Vltor assembled VRA-R lower receiver
    • Vltor Modular Upper Receiver (MUR)
    • Seekins BCG

    Or
    • Noveske Gen 1 Forged stripped lower
    • Noveske MUR (made by Vltor) upper
    • Noveske BCG
    • JP lower parts kit

    Other receivers considered:
    • JP Enterprises Billet
    • JP Enterprises forged
    • Vltor monolithic
    • Flacor
    • Alexander Arms
    • Seekins
    • LaRue
    Last edited by mjphawk; 09-12-2017, 08:49 PM.

  • #26
    Originally posted by bigjake83 View Post
    (1) Buy your Krieger Barrel from Compass Lake Engineering, In any configuration you like, they will be happy to assist you I would strongly recommend the 7.7 twist though. The Wylde Chamber is a great Option if you plan to run 5.56 ammo and .223, but if you're like me and only care about precision and accuracy get a .223 Match Chamber from CLE. And most importantly get your Barrel and bolt headspace together.

    In my experience it is harder to find store bought match ammo for a barrel chambered and wylde that will shoot as good as handloads. All my barrels from CLE we'll shoot Black Hills Blue remanufactured .223 77gr ammo at 1/2 MOA or better.
    I did some reading on the 223 Wylde vs CLE Match. Am I understanding correctly that the biggest difference is that with a 223 Wylde I likely going to have a lot of jump with magazine length rounds whereas the CLE is a little shorter so that magazine length VLDs such as the 77gr SMK/TMKs or 80gr VLDs can get out closer to the lands? Are there other differences? Are there any drawbacks to the CLE?

    As I stated I want to maximize accuracy and plan to feed it almost exclusively handloads so being able to use factory NATO rounds isn't a large concern. It would be nice to have to flexibility to use something such as PRIME

    Originally posted by bigjake83 View Post
    So first step is get your Krieger Barrel, next figure out what you want to use for your receivers. I prefer to use a match set over piecing different brands together.. like I said above the Rainier Arms match grade receiver sets are the one of the best I've seen on the market for the price,and they have ambidextrous controls. Me personally I would get a matched set if you don't want to go that way the VLTOR uppers are awesome.
    I'm still split between the VLTOR and the JP Enterprises. I like the way the JP Enterprises looks and that they are a matched set. Are the JP uppers of at least the same quality/rigidity as the VLTOR or is the price difference really just for the name/looks?


    Thanks again to all for the input. I feel a lot better about some of the aspects of this build which have changed since I originally posted.

    Comment


    • #27
      Just my $00.02... I'd like to see P-J Industries Inc take shape (Padom-Jake); I'd buy one of thier guns...
      ÖHow many people go to the desert 10 miles from the Syrian border and hold a wedding 80 miles from the nearest civilization? Over two-dozen military-aged males... let's not be naÔve. Let's leave it at that.
      Gen. James Mattis USMC

      Comment


      • #28
        That's my point the .223 perfect for AR mag length loads, and unless you're gonna single feed it the 80gr VLD are out.

        Yes there is a big difference between the JP CTR-02 upper vs The VLTOR., The CTR-02 is at least twice as thick as the VLTOR, but since you keep saying you're gonna run a 20" Barrel you don't need the JP.

        Comment


        • #29
          Originally posted by JoeBUtah View Post
          Just my $00.02... I'd like to see P-J Industries Inc take shape (Padom-Jake); I'd buy one of thier guns...
          You can start here.

          https://forum.snipershide.com/forum/...ast-price-drop

          Comment


          • #30
            Originally posted by bigjake83 View Post
            For some reason that like goes to an error page:

            Invalid Page URL. If this is an error and the page should exist, please contact the system administrator and tell them how you got this message.
            ÖHow many people go to the desert 10 miles from the Syrian border and hold a wedding 80 miles from the nearest civilization? Over two-dozen military-aged males... let's not be naÔve. Let's leave it at that.
            Gen. James Mattis USMC

            Comment


            • #31
              Originally posted by JoeBUtah View Post

              For some reason that like goes to an error page:

              Invalid Page URL. If this is an error and the page should exist, please contact the system administrator and tell them how you got this message.
              Try this..

              https://forum.snipershide.com/forum/...ast-price-drop

              Comment


              • #32
                Originally posted by bigjake83 View Post
                That's my point the .223 perfect for AR mag length loads, and unless you're gonna single feed it the 80gr VLD are out.

                Yes there is a big difference between the JP CTR-02 upper vs The VLTOR., The CTR-02 is at least twice as thick as the VLTOR, but since you keep saying you're gonna run a 20" Barrel you don't need the JP.
                Thanks for the info.

                I just wanted to make sure I understood the benefit of the CLE match chamber. Sounds like there aren't really any down-sides provided you plan to hand-load

                While not part of the plan right now it at least sounds like the CTR-02 isn't going to be a detriment to the build and may even be beneficial if I wanted to flexibility to move to a 24" 6.5 Grendel barrel at some future date.

                I appreciate everyone's patience, I do research based on feedback before asking follow-ups to try and avoid dumb questions. I've pretty much been a bolt-action guy so a high quality AR build for precision is totally new territory.

                Comment


                • #33
                  Originally posted by FALex View Post
                  Seriously, all that shit looks good. But to be quite honest, if you're going to spend that much cash on a precision AR, just have JP build the fucker for you. Let's face it, after it's all said and done, what if it doesn't meet your expectations in terms of "precision?" Where do you start?

                  You MIGHT pay a tad bit more (I'm not even sure about this as I got my JP-15 for 2k) by going with a complete JP build, but you will have the satisfaction of knowing a few things: 1) the rifle will be a precision rifle and 2) there's likely not going to be another AR that is more accurate.

                  For me, it's a piece of mind issue. Of course, I am the super proud owner of two different JP builds. After seeing the performance of my LRP-07, the JP-15 was a no-brainer.

                  I am sure GAP and others on here make very accurate rifles as well, but I can personally attest to JP's.
                  The bolded part is interesting. What types of groups are you getting with your JP at > or = 500 yards? Not trying to start an argument, just curious from a comparison standpoint.
                  Last edited by Eurodriver; 09-16-2017, 12:07 PM. Reason: Tried to make it clear this isn't a dick measuring competition - just a question to learn from.

                  Comment


                  • #34
                    Ok, I am down to what I think are my final questions

                    1) How much difference does contour make? The Krieger ordered directly from the factory has a 0.750" gas block diameter and 0.730" at the muzzle versus the CLE Match where I can select from 0.875"/0.936" at the gas block and 0.750"/0.812" at the muzzle. It appears I can mix and match my dimensions (i.e. 0.875" at gas block with 0.812" muzzle). I'm thinking the 0.875" at gas block with 0.812" muzzle is probably sufficient for a .223 but don't want to give up accuracy in order to save a few ounces

                    2) Is there a detriment to threading a .223 barrel with a 1/2 - 28? I read some info that for larger calibers that small thread size can cause a "bell" at the crown and inhibit accuracy. I do not have a 5.56 can and my 7.62 is too heavy for an AR (Specwar 762). Clearly no muzzle device means I need to be very careful with the crown.
                    Last edited by mjphawk; 09-16-2017, 12:25 PM.

                    Comment


                    • #35
                      Originally posted by mjphawk View Post
                      Ok, I am down to what I think are my final questions

                      1) How much difference does contour make? The Krieger ordered directly from the factory has a 0.750" gas block diameter and 0.730" at the muzzle versus the CLE Match where I can select from 0.875"/0.936" at the gas block and 0.750"/0.812" at the muzzle. It appears I can mix and match my dimensions (i.e. 0.875" at gas block with 0.812" muzzle). I'm thinking the 0.875" at gas block with 0.812" muzzle is probably sufficient for a .223 but don't want to give up accuracy in order to save a few ounces

                      2) Is there a detriment to threading a .223 barrel with a 1/2 - 28? I read some info that for larger calibers that small thread size can cause a "bell" at the crown and inhibit accuracy. I do not have a 5.56 can and my 7.62 is too heavy for an AR (Specwar 762). Clearly no muzzle device means I need to be very careful with the crown.
                      Yes have CLE do your barrel, you can get it in any configuration you like.

                      I never!! Run 1/2x28 threads, it just doesn't leave enough meat at the end of the barrel causing that last inch to be superheated, sounds like you want to have a medium varmint Contour, 1" just past the chamber, then step it down .920 under the handguard .875 gas Block, then .840 the muzzle with 5/8x24 threads. That is the exact profile I run on all my 18"-20" AR barrels. I would also recommend the APA GEN2 Little Bastard MB, same as seen in photo. IMG_20160123_151721746.jpg
                      IMG_20151210_140011856.jpg

                      Comment


                      • #36
                        I find the comment on avoiding 1/2x28 muzzle threads very intriguing.. makes sense conceptually.
                        Have you tested this notion? Actually measured the temps after identical stings of fire, the muzzle threads on 1/2x28 and 5/8x24 guns to prove
                        this theory?
                        I would like to hear more on your findings on accuracy betwixt the 2 muzzle threadings, if you care to
                        elaborate..
                        motto :
                        "Despite what your momma told you, Violence does solve problems."

                        Comment


                        • #37
                          G9 with battle arms reicevers

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                          • #38
                            Or go with a 2a armament lightweight bad ass

                            Comment


                            • #39
                              Then mft stock and bcm handgaurd

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                              • #40
                                Also go with a jp low mass bcg

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                                • #41
                                  And for barrel proof carbon fiber

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                                  • #42
                                    There are frankly a number of successful ways to accomplish what you're trying to do.

                                    It's always easier to do if weight is no factor. Heavy guns are easier to shoot accurately.

                                    For my own use, I have little interest in building a heavy gun in a light caliber. It is to me more gratifying to be half-MOA or better with factory ammo with a lighter rifle.





                                    I wasn't going whole hog on the lightweight theme here. The only things I'd even consider "lightweight" are the Proof Research CFW barrel and the MFT buttstock, plus a bunch of V Seven titanium parts. I guess the tiny Nightforce 2.5-10x42 NXS at 21.5 ounces is on the lighter side for a precision optic.

                                    Parts list, in the order they all go together, more or less:

                                    SanTan Pillar billet receiver set

                                    Proof Research 18" CFW barrel, 1x8 twist, Wylde chamber

                                    SLR Ti adjustable gas block

                                    Geissele 13" Mk 8 rail (not light - just on hand)

                                    Thunder Beast CB brake

                                    MSTN N/M Ionbond DLC coate BCG with bolt fitted at 1.4646" (not light)

                                    PRI Gas Buster

                                    Every titanium part V Seven offers for the lower receiver - push pins, safety selector, dust cover, receiver end plate, tube nut, grip screw, buffer stop, etc.

                                    Geissele N/M trigger

                                    Vltor A5 recoil system with A5-H1 buffer

                                    Sierra Precision pistol grip

                                    MFT buttstock

                                    Spuhr SP-3026 scope mount

                                    NF 2.5-10x42 NXS

                                    Thunder Beast Ultra 7 .223 (light for a suppressor, but heavier than no suppressor)

                                    Really Right Stuff TVC-33 tripod (extremely light)

                                    Really Right Stuff TA-3 leveling head with throw lever base

                                    Things I do:

                                    Fit bolt

                                    Contour & polish feed ramps

                                    Prep new barrel by simply cleaning it with KG products.

                                    Locktite most things

                                    Things I don't do:

                                    Square receiver (comes that way)

                                    Locktite barrel extension (tight fit already that requires heat to install)

                                    The Proof barrels continue to impress me greatly. The throat and chamber are like that of no other barrel. There is a complete and total absence of tool marks in both. The bores are of course flawless, too. I've got three rifles with Proof CFW barrels now, and they're all favorites.







                                    Comment


                                    • #43
                                      Bad ass

                                      Comment


                                      • #44
                                        Very cool

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                                        • #45
                                          That s what the one I'm buildfing will look like except fee and kazoo green with a battle arms or noveski gen 3

                                          Comment


                                          • #46
                                            Originally posted by ballistic1
                                            I find the comment on avoiding 1/2x28 muzzle threads very intriguing.. makes sense conceptually.
                                            Have you tested this notion? Actually measured the temps after identical stings of fire, the muzzle threads on 1/2x28 and 5/8x24 guns to prove
                                            this theory?
                                            I would like to hear more on your findings on accuracy betwixt the 2 muzzle threadings, if you care to
                                            elaborate..
                                            Here is the article that got me thinking about it.

                                            http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/...oo-much-steel/

                                            It suggests that a threaded muzzle that doesn't leave enough material at the crown can be subject to flaring out. Conceptually I guess this could influence the perfect release from the rifling that is the purpose of a well cut crown.

                                            The video and article deal with .308 and 6.5 and doesn't specifically include 5.56 but I would think that moving from 1/2x28 to 5/8x24 on a 5.56 accomplishes the same as moving from 5/8x24 to 3/4x28 on a .308/6.5.

                                            I'm going to heed the advice I got here and go with a 5/8x24 thread which will give me the flexibility to use my Specwar 762 on this build if I choose to do so. It's a heavy can (24oz) but I found out the friend who got me started on this build runs a similar weight can on his rig which is very similar to what I am planning. I originally planned to not even thread the muzzle since I don't plan on buying a dedicated 5.56 can.

                                            I wish I had seen this before I rebarreled my bolt gun but am glad I saw it before I do my full custom bolt gun.


                                            Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

                                            Comment


                                            • #47


                                              Agree with just letting Compass Lake put one together for you. - great people. Ordered a CLE service rifle w/ Krieger 7.7, Geissele trigger and matching lower. Had it at my door 2 days later.

                                              Have had it about a month now and it's terrific. 5 shot group inside .25", consistent sub .5 MOA the norm.
                                              And I'm new to all this.




                                              Last edited by DellaDog; 09-29-2017, 08:38 PM.

                                              Comment


                                              • #48
                                                Wow, that's pretty damn tight. My absolute best rifle is a custom built Grendel I put together with a Satern barrel; I thought a consistent .33 was something to brag about but damn. There are new bullets out since I last loaded for it though and that cut rifle barrel can surprise... Haven't tried out my Lijla 6.5G SBR or "Recce" .223 Wylde yet, sorry. Expect good things though, they are supposed to be one of the best button rifle bbl. makers. I "think" Krieger makes my SR25 bbl. and it's 20" cut rifle and guaranteed sub-MOA.

                                                Marines custom build their "DCM" style rifles very similar to yours in-house for their shooting team (or did in the doc. I saw back in the day). FF tube under the handguard, cut rifle blank they turned, etc. Custom A2 irons (we used to mod ours in army but they did a couple better up on us). It was all in the details. Rifle looked no different than any other old school A2 w/SS bbl. and A2 hider. They had their own loading unit too and dedicated rounds to their rifles. No wonder they shoot so damn well in competitions! Good shooting habits + practice + good gear - as many variables as possible = winner.

                                                IME, most of your accuracy will lie in that barrel and a quality solid milspec rcvr./bcg setup (I like to use JP for lower/upper parts, bcg's and Geissele triggers on nice rifles) with at least a quality FF tube of some kind (I like KAC and URX4 is super simple, well priced and works VERY well, but limits gas blocks to set screw unless you are willing to drill the side for a pin; not a problem for most folks). That's gear anyway. All the other stuff is ergonomics, reliability or just looks. I do find Noveske upper and lower receivers to be the best for the money. New ones are nice too. KAC15 lower is fully ambi and has SOPMOD stock and trigger fine enough to leave... GTG out of the box and worth the high price all considered if you are a trigger snob and prefer SOPMOD stocks (I started using them on longer rifles after the SR25 came with one and I like it enough to leave it). From experience though, I've seen fixed A2 stocks out perform collapsible, but they weren't SOPMODs which fit solid (B5's are nice, but not as tight as real LMT IME). Magpul's PRS is just too damn heavy and 1.5" scope mounts eliminate the need for adj. cheek riser, for me anyway. MUR1 upper is really nice, but the one I have the FA won't engage a JP carrier, only a milspec one. Could be a one off issue though.

                                                Good luck!

                                                Oh, unless you happen to have a ton of AR tools just laying around or access and knowledge, it may be cheaper and you may end up with a better rifle if you buy one. Lots of excellent AR's for about build price, better on sale. Some custom too and KAC is so improved it's basically proprietary and not even technically an AR anymore (not many AR parts fit 'em anymore). Been building for years, know/knew some of the best and I still learn tricks; one of those is to just purchase all but the most custom rifle --but I happen to have the tools. Should start a shop rental business, you pay $50 or so and I let you use my tools and help you assemble it.

                                                Comment


                                                • #49
                                                  If I was building one I would use a San Tan receiver set, they are amazingly tight, then JP barrel, lightweight BCG and riffle buffer. Then whatever else from there.

                                                  Buying one, I would just buy a JP and be done with it.

                                                  Comment


                                                  • #50
                                                    ...Or, simply buy this. You simply can't go wrong for the $800. stag_15_Verminter_model_6_L_2__29373.1506537208.jpg?c=2.jpg






                                                    All the figuring out is done, it arrives with a 1/2MOA factory Match ammo accuracy guarantee, and an infinite shot barrel warrantee. I've had my (Model 6 Super Varminter, which this model just superseded within that past month or two) rifle for going on 7 years, and it's a solid performer.

                                                    Honestly, the basic rifle is not in need of any superior rigidity, and any rifle that will deliver 1/2MOA at 100yd will stay accurate all the way out to where the ammunition is giving up the ghost.

                                                    I can appreciate the drive to try one's hand at configuring the ideal rifle. It fulfills a need which has nothing to do with how the rounds arrive on the target. But just about every such project I have has been an exercise in overkill in the absolute excess. When the dust settles, and the cuss echoes die away from the painstaking concentration, there is still the moment when the rifle has to stand up to expectation.

                                                    ...And it almost always does. Honestly, it's often a little bit of a letdown to realize that it simply fulfills the same promise as so many other like projects.

                                                    Well this Stag 15 Varminter goes a step further.

                                                    All that heartfelt component searching, painstaking assembly, and prototyping evolution has been done by a concern with resources none of us could begin to approach having.

                                                    This rifle does it well enough that I just bought a second one (to replace my original, which is now my Granddaughter's). I could have done a bunch of things differently to replace it; but in the end, I just bought another, because it just plain always works.

                                                    Final thoughts:

                                                    I've been in this accurate rifle process for going on three decades, and while I do come later to the AR arena, I do so with a lot of LR shooting under my belt. The rifle will only do so much for you beyond 300yd, and the environment out beyond that is simply chuckling at our efforts to impose control on its framework. It simply does not care that we have outfoxed our imagined foe, it does what it does regardless.

                                                    By all means, build your build, but wait until you've tried this rifle first. You may find, as I did, that more is not actually needed.

                                                    Greg
                                                    Last edited by Greg Langelius *; 10-12-2017, 11:01 AM.
                                                    Good marksmanship is no accident.

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