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Holding Elevation @ 200 yards+ What effects more: ammo ES or Wind??

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  • Holding Elevation @ 200 yards+ What effects more: ammo ES or Wind??

    Getting excited about HRL .22 matches so I pulled my Sako Finnfire Range out of mothballs and mounted and IOR tactical scope and have started to test the rig shooting dots at 25, 50, 100 and 200 yards at the local range. The gun shoots very well and will group in the .1's and .2's at 50 yards and 1/2 MOA at 100 yds. with ELEY or Federal Ultra match - indoors - no wind.

    I tested the gun out the AM with ELEY Edge ammo and it grouped 0.2"-0.3" at 50 yds and was repeatable hitting 1/4", 1/2" and 2" dots at 25-100 yards respectively. At these nearer distances the gun/ammo would hold 1/4-1/3" elevation at 50yd and 3/4"-1" at 100 yards; however when I shot it at 200 I experienced elevation issues that I did not expect. I would have expected the gun to hold 1.5"-3" elevation @ 200 but it seemed to vary 4-7 inches. Wind was in my face variable 1-7 mph fish-tailing from 10 o'clock to 1 o'clock.

    So for those Hide members out there that have a lot more experience shooting precision .22's beyond 200 yards, how much does ES variation in the ammo contribute to elevation issues at distance vs. wind push/pull on the bullet??


    Thx.

  • #26
    Ammunition quality is everything at 200 yards.
    I can wait for the flags to indicate when to squeeze,
    but there's nothing I can do to compensate for varying muzzle velocities.
    200 yards is where I spend my time with my assortment of rimfires.
    Match grade 22lr will show 1/10th inch of vertical spread for 1 fps difference in mv.
    Typical Midas+, RWS R50, Tenex will chronograph about 40 fps ES for a box of 50.
    That works out to 4 inches of vertical spread for those 50 shots.
    RFC CZ forum is running a monthly 200 yard rimfire competition at this time,
    10 shot groups with rimfire at 200 yards and sub-moa results have been turned in.
    Even I've been able to accomplish that particular task,
    and did not win with a 1.7 inch 10 shot group.

    Last edited by justin amateur; 12-06-2017, 10:01 AM.

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    • #27
      Originally posted by 300ATT View Post
      The wind gradient definitely increases as you go up and I think Mr. German may be on to something. Unfortunately there are 15' berms surrounding the range where I shoot and they seem to provide "significant" terrain induced variables when the wind is from any direction except from behind. I shot today with the wind pumping from behind and saw a lot (4"-5") of elevation spread that is normally 1" or less on a dead calm day. With the wind at 6-11 mph from behind I noticed that i had to reduce my 200 yd elevation by 0.3 mils ... .22 ELR is definitely a challenge.
      You are correct; gradients exist but overall with centerfire aren't too prevalent unless you're going VERY far out. I usually give a bit more of a wind call as is, but shooting 'ELR' with 22LR a lot this year I've noticed that even a 2mph wind call error will make a huge difference whereas with a 6.5, 308, 300, etc you may just be slightly opening your group size up.

      I noticed that I always seemed to be off in initial wind calls by almost the same amount each time regardless of how much time I spent measuring wind at both the gun and at the target. Once I started to account for wind that didn't exist (even just a little) I'm making first round hits. With centerfire you're normally putting your wind call in a bracket, 7-10, 12-15, etc. With the 22 at long distance every 1 mph counts. and this initial method/theory is to try and cut down on the lost wind values.

      10. Panzerdivision - 23. Gebirgsjäger 'Bayern'
      Hammelburg 1999
      {KFOR} Veteran 1999 - 2001
      TF 51/236 Afghanistan

      MRAD Masterrace
      Chairman, 'Go Be Poor Somewhere Else' Society

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      • #28
        Originally posted by 300ATT View Post
        Will try to find some flat land to shoot to test Mr German's approach ... what size targets? 2-4 MOA?
        Target size isn't too important for testing or practice as long as you know where your rounds are going, and why.

        Also note that at 274ish yards, a 4 inch clay is only .4MIL vertical/horizontal. At that distance a full value 5mph wind (i.e. next to no wind) requires 1.3MILS of horizontal adjustment. That's 3 times the size of the target.

        For further distances, especially if I don't have a good berm that will show the impact splashes, I put up a flat cardboard box behind it to see where my rounds went, how close together they were as well as if they are all vertically spread yet I held for the wind the exact same each shot.

        The other part of this is to update your range card. I found at some distances my card was 100% on as far as elevation, and at further distances I always had to add more elevation; this can be from your velocity being off or just the total shit BC the 40g round is. Verify the range, record the adjustment as well as temperature and DA - the cardboard backer lets you know exactly where you were hitting.

        Once I have everything dialed in/verified, I'll normally shoot 4 inch clays at 250-300+, as well as 2 inch and 3.6inch metal spinners from 150-275ish.
        10. Panzerdivision - 23. Gebirgsjäger 'Bayern'
        Hammelburg 1999
        {KFOR} Veteran 1999 - 2001
        TF 51/236 Afghanistan

        MRAD Masterrace
        Chairman, 'Go Be Poor Somewhere Else' Society

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        • #29
          Shooting a .22 @ 200 with eley running at 1085 fps is very much like shooting a 308 at 800 yards they blow around about the same except I get more vertical dispersion than I ever see with the .308.
          Last edited by 300ATT; 12-07-2017, 01:10 PM. Reason: Spelling issues.

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          • #30
            Well for fun I went out the range today. Wind was fishtailing from 6 o'clock at 18 mph gusting to 27 mph. The gun shot decent at 50, 75 and 100 ... but at 200 in those conditions I saw an elevation spread of 8" for ammo that will normally hold 1" or less at 200 yards (Eley Match). The small diamonds were shot at 50 yards (approx 1/4") then moved target to 75 yards and shot at the next size up (approx. 3/4"), then moved to 100 yards and shot the diamonds that were about 1.5". Then I moved the target to 200 yards to shoot a 6"-ish diamond around a 3" spotter and it got noticeably harder.


            The range is set up such that there are 20' berms on either side out to 100 yards which sort of would funnel the wind. Then the wind has to launch over a 12' berm cross-ways at 100 on the way to 200. I assume that this would create an eddy as it goes over the 100 yard berm which greatly affects elevation with ammo that can hold 1" elevation at 200 on a calm day ... Don't know if there is anyway to better deal with this - suggestions?

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            • #31
              Don't know if there is anyway to better deal with this - suggestions?

              Absolutely, laugh, loudly, it's what I do on those days where timing gusts is the challenge.
              Trying to judge the right moment to squeeze and getting hammered by a gust is normal.

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              • #32
                Yep, next time I suggest staying home and drinking coffee while catching up on reloading for the centerfire, lol. Been there... and that's why I became a fair weather shooter.

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                • #33
                  Hee, hee, yeah I guess there's a new use for the kestrel: tell you when its time to pack up, go home and do something more productive ... but things worked well in the same wind before the Bullets had to pass over the 100 yd berm.

                  I guess the the solution is to shoot on a flat bermless range or indoors.

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                  • #34
                    Nope, not going to shoot indoors.
                    Still going to be at the 200 yard range even if it's gusting 30.
                    How can you learn if the conditions are always optimum.
                    I prefer the challenge of making a difficult shot
                    compared to the blandness of shooting in dead air.

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                    • #35
                      It definitely adds a new dimension to reading the wind (vertical) that doesn't really show up with centerfire at PRS distances.

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