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  • Another F.N.G. polling the professionals

    So I've finally gotten an ATN PVS 14 gen 3 set up. With Head mount / weapon mount
    now...

    Plan is to set up a coyote rig using a Tavor

    I'm under the impression the best method here is to head mount and use IR laser for most shooting. Also under the impression rifle mounting will wear down my units life a little faster so I'm not wanting to do any of that.

    Now my question for those of you that have been through this, is there any benefit to getting an entry level NV optic to put on the Tavor, or will the PVS with IR laser be more useful than the cheaper scopes anyway? What's the best compliment for the PVS to mount on the rifle?

    Also looking for insight on best weapon mounted IR laser / illuminator for whatever system you suggest. Thanks
    punching paper.. plinking plates.. busting bottles.. cracking clays.... shooting something!!

  • #26
    vic...you make my point exactly. the atpial-c does suck ass because of exactly that...shit illum. as i said before...those of us that want them and not for the dumb ass cool guy factor or clone hobby want them for the damn laser illuminator. any shitty class one aiming laser that retains zero works for carbine and pistol work... lets cut the crap and say it how it is. 150-300yd illumination is unacceptable for what we do. the pic you posted sure as hell doesnt look like any laser illum from a full 40-50mw laser device like a full power peq. i have used them extensively and routinely illuminate targets to 1000yd so i know what they do and how they work.

    now...if the mawl has a laser illum diode i cannot see how it can be worth a shit since it cannot be more than .7mw of power. so that means if it kicks ass it has to have a led illum....which i nor many others doing long range work and observation want. so we buy restricted gear and take our chances to get the performance we need.

    Comment


    • #27
      Originally posted by PlinkIt View Post
      So I've finally gotten an ATN PVS 14 gen 3 set up. With Head mount / weapon mount
      now...

      Plan is to set up a coyote rig using a Tavor

      I'm under the impression the best method here is to head mount and use IR laser for most shooting. Also under the impression rifle mounting will wear down my units life a little faster so I'm not wanting to do any of that.

      Now my question for those of you that have been through this, is there any benefit to getting an entry level NV optic to put on the Tavor, or will the PVS with IR laser be more useful than the cheaper scopes anyway? What's the best compliment for the PVS to mount on the rifle?

      Also looking for insight on best weapon mounted IR laser / illuminator for whatever system you suggest. Thanks
      you can find nice scopes in the used sections. A few raptors sold a couple weeks ago. They would be great for the mid to long range shots.

      Comment


      • #28
        Ok so to sum up and make sure Iím following

        I can get a $300 civilian grade laser that will serve my purpose for point & shoot

        but

        The only Illuminator I can buy to get any range is either a 2nd hand restricted unit, or a $2,500 MAWL unit?

        am I following that correctly?
        punching paper.. plinking plates.. busting bottles.. cracking clays.... shooting something!!

        Comment


        • #29
          Originally posted by Killswitch Engage View Post
          vic...you make my point exactly. the atpial-c does suck ass because of exactly that...shit illum. as i said before...those of us that want them and not for the dumb ass cool guy factor or clone hobby want them for the damn laser illuminator. any shitty class one aiming laser that retains zero works for carbine and pistol work... lets cut the crap and say it how it is. 150-300yd illumination is unacceptable for what we do. the pic you posted sure as hell doesnt look like any laser illum from a full 40-50mw laser device like a full power peq. i have used them extensively and routinely illuminate targets to 1000yd so i know what they do and how they work.

          now...if the mawl has a laser illum diode i cannot see how it can be worth a shit since it cannot be more than .7mw of power. so that means if it kicks ass it has to have a led illum....which i nor many others doing long range work and observation want. so we buy restricted gear and take our chances to get the performance we need.
          Tried to be cordial, but I see where your going. COOL, lets cut the crap then...

          You have NOT used the MAWL, nor had hands on so you dont hae a clue what you're taking about. You also don't have a clue about the power output on a PEQ-2 or PEQ-15. Power output on the IR Lum with BOTH standard PEQ-2A's and the restricted PEQ-15 ATPIAL's is 25-30mW MAX , not 40-50mW which is pure B.S. For a person who used these exclusively, you should be familiar with the official power rating of the IR Illuminators.

          You also keep ignoring the fact on what do you do for warranty work if anything goes down? So you then become the cool guy with an expensive paper weight on your gun? I know, in your eyes, its OK to spend 1500 large on an illegal device and lets not forget how many out there who have received knocks on the door after hours to confiscate the so-called legally obtained device. Please do not try to tell us this not happened countless times, I know factually this still happens today.

          Rock on KillSwitch, when you get a MAWL let us know, and then you will understand its capabilities and how B.E. Meyers designed the laserS in this system because everyone who uses it says the same thing and that includes a HUGE bunch of heavy hitters in the shoot guys in the face community. Good luck.

          Edit, this awhile back from Matt Meyers. A guy who knows his way around IR lasers. Pay attention to the design elements that may shed some light on a few things before you pass judgment...Almost forgot to mention the MAWL also kicks the shit out of both the full power PEQ-2A's, and PEQ-15's beam quality with not one, NOT ONE beam artifact vs. PEQ's. It's the cleanest beam most have ever seen built into a laser system. <OUT>

          From Matt Meyers...

          Class 1 Plusô = Irradiance on Target
          The power balance of infrared illumination and pointing irradiance at different ranges becomes critical as commercial night vision quality continually increases, which is why MAWL-C1+ brings settings specific for close range to long range target engagement. By utilizing a uniquely arrayed laser core, the MAWL-C1+ is able to incorporate a laser illuminator capable of outperforming other civilian legal laser systems on the market, and also outperforms many restricted devices. This provides the user with a distinctive and functional near infrared illuminator with unrivaled irradiance on target, allowing for positive identification of objects, the ability to surpass many photonic barriers, as well as faster target acquisition either on the range or in the field. On top of this, the visible green laser pointer in the MAWL-C1+ has selectable low-power settings for close range boresight precision that is also slaved to the near infrared pointers. Once the user has zeroed the visible green laser, the infrared lasers are also automatically zeroed, getting you into the field faster at night. By featuring centralized, co-aligned emitters, the MAWL ensures that all beams are simultaneously on target, regardless of distance.

          Class 1 Plusô = Beam Clarity
          Our beam is our brand, and the incredibly smooth illumination quality of the MAWL-C1+ is the same as in the standard MAWL-DA, eliminating the distracting artifacts (a.k.a. greasy fingerprint spots) that many civilian and restricted laser devices possess. Not only does this clean energy performance improve your illumination of the target area, it makes low Figure-of-Merit (FOM) night vision devices look better by providing increased ambient and directional near infrared illumination.


          Use What You Already Own
          The MAWL is designed to be the best laser on the market, and works with and compliments a variety of other high-end systems. The MAWL-C1+ is designed to work with all MIL-STD/NSWC Crane Laser Lead remotes, which include the Unity Tactical/TNVC TAPSô and TAPS Proô series remote cables, the SureFire SR07-D-IT, as well as L3 and Steiner remote activation cables. In addition to this, the MAWL series are designed to work in parallel with the SureFire M300 Mini-Scout Lightģ to maximize rail space efficiency.
          Last edited by Victor-TNVC; 12-05-2017, 02:51 PM.
          A veteran is someone who, at one point, wrote a blank check made payable to 'The United States of America ' for an amount of Ďup to and including their life.' That is Honor, and there are way too many people in this country who no longer understand it.
          www.tnvc.com

          Comment


          • #30
            First off I have never used a mawl aside of hand holding one at shot show. I never claimed to and in fact asked YOU what was so great about it considering its still a class 1 device.

            I am ignoring the fact that theres no warranty to be had. there isn't warranty with a lot of the nv gear people buy and take chances on. its how the world turns.

            my bad on the power output on the illum. I would love to hear and see some feed back from these "face shooters" on the long range illumination capability of the mawl. im all ears.

            Comment


            • #31
              Originally posted by PlinkIt View Post
              Ok so to sum up and make sure Iím following

              I can get a $300 civilian grade laser that will serve my purpose for point & shoot

              but

              The only Illuminator I can buy to get any range is either a 2nd hand restricted unit, or a $2,500 MAWL unit?

              am I following that correctly?
              With regard to the ir laser pointer: yes, in my opinion.

              With regard to the illuminator: no, in my opinion.

              There are are folks, like our friend killswitch, with specific wants or needs in an illuminator that can only be satisfied with a restricted power, laser based illuminator. If you want to light up targets at 1000 yards and give no visible signature from your illuminator, yea I guess you gotta have the hi power laser shit. Iíll reiterate that itíll not only light up your target, itíll also fry your eyes quicker than you can blink if you make a mistake with it. Thereís a current thread in another NV forum with a tale of exactly this scenario where a hunter blasted a pig, got excited and forgot to power off the illuminator on his ďsuck assĒ full power peq15. Vision damage ensues.

              Btw, I have spent time with restricted power units while serving in the Corps, as a grunt, through 4 deployments. Used PVS 17 as well for passive aiming. Theyíre cool, yes. But I really do think for the OPís needs of shooting yotes at around 200 yards it just ainít the right tool. Im also not saying I think they should be illegal for civilian ownership and use. Letís not go down that rabbit hole.... also as Vic pointed out thereís a lot of stolen units out there. If the OP isnít versed in spotting a stolen unit, which he probably isnít since heís asking basic questions about lasers, why would he go through the trouble of navigating that scenario?

              So in summary, OP, for a weapon mounted laser/illuminator combo I think youíd be well served with an OTAL-C ir laser paired up with a good led based illuminator. The illuminator will emit some red light directly to the front and may be visible, at times, by certain critters. Youíll have to work out switching and mounting but itís probably your best bet, given your intended use. Another option might be the DBAL I-2 single spectrum which incorporates the ir laser and illuminator into one unit. Itís laser based so I donít think you should expect great rage from the illuminator (think 100 yards-ish depending on light conditions). Either way youíll pay $500-$700 for good stuff depending on used or new purchase.

              In a slight aside, and at the peril of incurring wrath from the ďmax powerĒ crowd, I think that steering the OP toward a full power unit for his first foray into NV aiming equipment is a bit like encouraging a 16 year old to buy the used corvette for his first ride. Yea, theyíre fast and cool as hell...theyíre also way too much car for the average new driver. The Cost of ownership, higher skill required for proficiency, smaller error margin, and multiple other reasons make the vette a less than ideal solution for newly licensed drivers. Same with the restricted lasers. In the right hands theyíre an awesome tool that can do really neat shit. In the wrong hands itís just a recipe for frustration and/or dangerous situations. Iím all for ĎMurcia and shit too, I love my guns and NV stuff. Buy whatever the hell you want, but for Peteís sake letís not pretend thereís bad advice for beginners in this world just like everywhere else. Just my opinion and Iím just some idiot on the internet named after a hamster so donít put too much stock in it.



              Comment


              • #32
                Originally posted by marvthehamster View Post

                With regard to the ir laser pointer: yes, in my opinion.

                With regard to the illuminator: no, in my opinion.

                There are are folks, like our friend killswitch, with specific wants or needs in an illuminator that can only be satisfied with a restricted power, laser based illuminator. If you want to light up targets at 1000 yards and give no visible signature from your illuminator, yea I guess you gotta have the hi power laser shit. Iíll reiterate that itíll not only light up your target, itíll also fry your eyes quicker than you can blink if you make a mistake with it. Thereís a current thread in another NV forum with a tale of exactly this scenario where a hunter blasted a pig, got excited and forgot to power off the illuminator on his ďsuck assĒ full power peq15. Vision damage ensues.

                Btw, I have spent time with restricted power units while serving in the Corps, as a grunt, through 4 deployments. Used PVS 17 as well for passive aiming. Theyíre cool, yes. But I really do think for the OPís needs of shooting yotes at around 200 yards it just ainít the right tool. Im also not saying I think they should be illegal for civilian ownership and use. Letís not go down that rabbit hole.... also as Vic pointed out thereís a lot of stolen units out there. If the OP isnít versed in spotting a stolen unit, which he probably isnít since heís asking basic questions about lasers, why would he go through the trouble of navigating that scenario?

                So in summary, OP, for a weapon mounted laser/illuminator combo I think youíd be well served with an OTAL-C ir laser paired up with a good led based illuminator. The illuminator will emit some red light directly to the front and may be visible, at times, by certain critters. Youíll have to work out switching and mounting but itís probably your best bet, given your intended use. Another option might be the DBAL I-2 single spectrum which incorporates the ir laser and illuminator into one unit. Itís laser based so I donít think you should expect great rage from the illuminator (think 100 yards-ish depending on light conditions). Either way youíll pay $500-$700 for good stuff depending on used or new purchase.

                In a slight aside, and at the peril of incurring wrath from the ďmax powerĒ crowd, I think that steering the OP toward a full power unit for his first foray into NV aiming equipment is a bit like encouraging a 16 year old to buy the used corvette for his first ride. Yea, theyíre fast and cool as hell...theyíre also way too much car for the average new driver. The Cost of ownership, higher skill required for proficiency, smaller error margin, and multiple other reasons make the vette a less than ideal solution for newly licensed drivers. Same with the restricted lasers. In the right hands theyíre an awesome tool that can do really neat shit. In the wrong hands itís just a recipe for frustration and/or dangerous situations. Iím all for ĎMurcia and shit too, I love my guns and NV stuff. Buy whatever the hell you want, but for Peteís sake letís not pretend thereís bad advice for beginners in this world just like everywhere else. Just my opinion and Iím just some idiot on the internet named after a hamster so donít put too much stock in it.


                I don't think anyone is saying there aren't dangers in using lasers. there are dangers using ANY laser including the piece of shit on your key chain. that said, I also don't think using a reference from a dude that slapped a weapon muzzle up in his truck, let it bounce around pointed at his fucking face, mind you... and didn't check or unfuck his gear is a good example seeing as he could have simply blown his own head off as easily as causing eye damage yet here he is still able to have a loaded weapon...

                Comment


                • #33
                  ... The only Illuminator I can buy to get any range is either a 2nd hand restricted unit, or a $2,500 MAWL unit?
                  Try this one ...

                  https://www.amazon.com/Luna-Optics-E...er+illuminator

                  Read the comments to the product for some "hints"

                  Comment


                  • #34
                    I think KSEs comments are helping me realize why I've never seen much benefit to "ir-illuminators". All the ones I've tried SUCK !!

                    I think I have 4 ... two of the T-20s ... an Armasight B850 and a Pular L915.

                    I run the B850 and the L915 on my helmets and they are useful for lighting up the eyes of the rats hiding in the wood pile and for reducing bloom in lasers close in. But that's about it. As far as navigating in the woods, the combination of the passive i2 14 and the thermal I wear on my head work better than turning on the illuminator which bounces off the vegetation and washes out the view.

                    I took one of the T-20s out last night with a 14 and looked around. At that time, 2300 local, we had a big moon up there. At 200yds and closer the illuminator effects were clearly differentiable from the no-illuminator view. But the illuminator did nothing shining it out 500yds across the alfalfa patch ... no difference reflected on the tree line at 500yds.
                    Likewise a mineral feeder on top of a ridge at 405yds, no visible difference between using the illuminator and not. And the illuminator cannot really penetrate usefully thru even sparse tree lines, too much ir light bouncing off the vegetation to enable me to see any faint advantage in the woods beyond the outer tree line.

                    So maybe those super duper illuminators are worth something. I've been told to get the Luna-ELIR-3 and follow the instructions. So I will add that to my wish list.



                    So getting a low cost ir-laser for aiming works ... but if you want a decent illuminator, that probably needs to be a separate gadget. So that's the issue with getting the high cost "integrated" boxes that come with ir-laser and illuminator. The ir-laser will work, but the illuminator is not value added and yet you spent a mint. So perhaps better to buy non-integrated solutions, Low cost ir-laser, higher cost illuminator like the Luna.



                    Comment


                    • #35
                      I have a DBAL-D2 and some other LED based illuminators. They are powerful and work awesome other than the size, visible signature and inability to really fine tune the aim of the illuminator and no matter how much you focus it down there is always at least some spill.

                      With a laser illuminator you can point the beam exactly where you want it and it will ONLY illuminate anything inside the focus area. The con is the illumination isn't as consistent and even as LEDs.

                      For use with a clip on I don't give a damn how awesome the illuminator is on the D2 or Mawl. It doesn't do you any good if all the spill washes out the distant target you're trying to see/hit. That's where a full power laser illuminator shines.

                      To the op the class 1 versions will probably work for you if you're shooting inside 200yds. If you feel the need for a stronger illuminator without a visible signature the LUNA is the easiest and cheapest one to get ahold of and stronger than most at 90mw(advertised). It has its drawbacks with beam wandering a bit when focus is adjusted but being able to dial the power up from 0-100% is very nice.

                      Comment


                      • #36
                        Originally posted by newguy2k3v2 View Post
                        I have a DBAL-D2 and some other LED based illuminators. They are powerful and work awesome other than the size, visible signature and inability to really fine tune the aim of the illuminator and no matter how much you focus it down there is always at least some spill.

                        With a laser illuminator you can point the beam exactly where you want it and it will ONLY illuminate anything inside the focus area. The con is the illumination isn't as consistent and even as LEDs.

                        For use with a clip on I don't give a damn how awesome the illuminator is on the D2 or Mawl. It doesn't do you any good if all the spill washes out the distant target you're trying to see/hit. That's where a full power laser illuminator shines.

                        To the op the class 1 versions will probably work for you if you're shooting inside 200yds. If you feel the need for a stronger illuminator without a visible signature the LUNA is the easiest and cheapest one to get ahold of and stronger than most at 90mw(advertised). It has its drawbacks with beam wandering a bit when focus is adjusted but being able to dial the power up from 0-100% is very nice.
                        Hey what do you know! Another dude that gets it cause he's used them and actually knows.

                        Comment


                        • #37
                          Find a PEQ2 and be done with it. Harder to find since they don't really use 'em much anymore and since combat losses that reappear are reintegrated back into the system, as opposed to being totally written off as they were in the past. Some cops get 'em and resell 'em too. Only caveat to this is that you can't send them back for repair, so take care of it. They're well built and tough, but it'll last your life if you take care of it.

                          For your hunting, I'd imagine the best setup to be a lower cost FLIR handheld spotter and quality clip on night vision to go in front of your day scope. Then you'll want an illuminator that has some reach. Another route you can go is to use only a clip on thermal and a day scope. Back the day scope all the way down to lowest mag. and use it to spot, zoom in to shoot.

                          I'd buy that Crye soft cover before the helmet, because you may find you don't need the helmet. I have a light Crye ballistic helmet (I'll sell it if you want it, has ALL the extras too) that I've literally worn about ten minutes total. It's nice, but when I got that soft cover I just stopped using it. For PVS14's, you can use a polymer shroud and a Velcro battery pocket in the back and it's about perfect. The batteries offset the weight in the front (and keep spares on hand). Seriously feels like a ballcap with chin straps. Yeah, get that first. There are more expensive skull crushers, but you won't need 'em with the 14's.

                          TNVC is who I deal with when I buy night vision and related gear, Vic has always done me right and he doesn't lie or blow smoke up your ass. He's honest, and that's rare in this industry. He can't sell you a restricted laser (he couldn't if he wanted to really, they ship direct from factory IIRC). So he has to focus on what civilian lasers can do and highlight their assets. FWIW, most people don't really need or use the high power settings on the PEQ2's, etc. The dimmer beams can be seen fine and don't bloom or halo like the high power beams can, so in this case a .7mW laser only would be fine. The high power illuminator is nice to have, but I understand there are now LED illuminators that can really reach out there. You have a lot of options. But I'd call Vic and discuss it with him on the phone, you'll learn a lot that way and he can help you come up with the right rig. If you feel you still need a PEQ2, he can still sell you everything else.

                          If you find you want that helmet, PM me. Oh, it's a Large I think.

                          Comment


                          • #38
                            Talking warranty to avoid having a tacticool paper weight is pretty laughable when they pretty much all only have a one year warranty anyway. Unless you're buying some airsoft crap I doubt you'd have a problem within a year outside of receiving a lemon. What happens after that? What's the bill going to be to repair, and is it repairable?

                            For LR performance I'd take my chances with the restricted stuff getting something I know the performance of to begin with, and as long as you receive a good one then it has most likely been used enough for issues to have already popped up if it was a dud. For short range (200 yards and in) coyote blasting the commercial units will do fine.

                            Is the MAWL a good unit? I don't know and I don't know anyone who has used one and the only one touting it here is a vendor that sells it.

                            Comment


                            • #39
                              I've learned to take Vics advice with a grain of salt....
                              sigpic

                              Comment


                              • #40
                                Originally posted by redneckbmxer24 View Post
                                Talking warranty to avoid having a tacticool paper weight is pretty laughable when they pretty much all only have a one year warranty anyway. Unless you're buying some airsoft crap I doubt you'd have a problem within a year outside of receiving a lemon. What happens after that? What's the bill going to be to repair, and is it repairable?

                                For LR performance I'd take my chances with the restricted stuff getting something I know the performance of to begin with, and as long as you receive a good one then it has most likely been used enough for issues to have already popped up if it was a dud. For short range (200 yards and in) coyote blasting the commercial units will do fine.

                                Is the MAWL a good unit? I don't know and I don't know anyone who has used one and the only one touting it here is a vendor that sells it.
                                The 1 year warranty after a LEGAL unit expires does mean you can STILL send it in to the manufacturer where they will service it AND return it back to you. This will NOT happen with illegally purchased units, you will never get it serviced, nor returned. Hope this helps.
                                Last edited by Victor-TNVC; 12-08-2017, 12:02 PM.
                                A veteran is someone who, at one point, wrote a blank check made payable to 'The United States of America ' for an amount of Ďup to and including their life.' That is Honor, and there are way too many people in this country who no longer understand it.
                                www.tnvc.com

                                Comment


                                • #41
                                  how about a through the optic video of a mawl vs a full power peq illumination on steel at 600yd using a good day optic and clip on. that's an easy average test and puts you at the outer edge of what you need for clip on target id distance

                                  if you like i will do one with the luna elir-3 vs a full power peq-15

                                  Comment


                                  • #42
                                    << i will do one with the luna elir-3 vs a full power peq-15>> I would like that .. one vote from the mud hole on the left !!!

                                    Comment


                                    • #43
                                      Originally posted by Victor-TNVC View Post

                                      The 1 year warranty after a LEGAL unit expires does mean you can STILL send it in to the manufacturer where they will service it AND return it back to you. This will NOT happen with illegally purchased units, you will never get it serviced, nor returned. Hope this helps.
                                      You missed my point. What does it cost to service these units after the warranty is up if something goes wrong? Is it even worth it? IMO a 1 year warranty on a product is pretty much useless outside of making sure you didn't get a dud.

                                      I understand that you can send a commercial unit in for repair and you will get it back and have the option to repair... BUT... it IS NOT illegal to possess a "restricted" laser, only to sell or manufacture it. Assuming that laser is not stolen govt property I have to seriously question how any manufacturer could legally confiscate someones property solely because they sent it in for service. Refuse to service it? Yes absolutely, it's their right to refuse service to anyone for any reason unless you have a contract stating otherwise but to confiscate someones property who doesn't illegally possess it and is not the person(s) who committed the crime by selling it cannot possibly be legal. That's theft plain and simple... Unless the unit is determined to be stolen property.

                                      I'm not too worried about a second hand restricted unit failing and needing service. I'm sure they do occasionally but I've never actually seen or heard of a case of it happening and some of them have been put through the ringer.

                                      I'm not suggesting that people go out and buy a restricted unit. If a commercial unit works for your application it would make no sense to buy anything else and the main benefit I see (assuming you know how to safely operate one) is not having to worry about whether or not the device you receive is stolen property. The piddly one year warranty is hardly an advantage IMO. If you need restricted power however then you should buy that, and I think most who do so know the potential risks so there's no need to stress it so much. I also think most who buy them don't give a shit either.

                                      Making sure people know the risks of buying a restricted unit is one thing, not condoning the purchase and ILLEGAL SALE of a restricted unit (IE: suggesting they shop for one second hand) is also understandable but trying to scare someone from buying it if they it's what they need is a real turn off to consumers, just consider that. Selling your product to a potential buyer is a much better tactic than trashing the competition or using scare tactics. Present the product, give them the facts and let them decide.

                                      I know this probably will not be taken well but please don't see this as a "call out". I think overall your company has a great thing going and without a doubt offers some wonderful products but your sale tactics could use some evaluation, I see a lot of people who are turned off by a lot of your comments and I just don't see how they help business in any way. My $.02.

                                      Comment


                                      • #44
                                        Originally posted by Killswitch Engage View Post
                                        how about a through the optic video of a mawl vs a full power peq illumination on steel at 600yd using a good day optic and clip on. that's an easy average test and puts you at the outer edge of what you need for clip on target id distance

                                        if you like i will do one with the luna elir-3 vs a full power peq-15

                                        Sounds awesome. Let's see through the scope pics with a Peq2, Peq15, Luna, and then civi special MAWL. My cop buddy has a Peq 2 that could be lent for the test.

                                        Comment


                                        • #45
                                          I don't have a mawl or access to one. tnvc would have to do that but I have access to everything else you listed. I will film it through my torrey pines dead eye like we film our hunts through. should be solid representation.

                                          Comment


                                          • #46
                                            Originally posted by redneckbmxer24 View Post

                                            You missed my point. What does it cost to service these units after the warranty is up if something goes wrong? Is it even worth it? IMO a 1 year warranty on a product is pretty much useless outside of making sure you didn't get a dud.

                                            I understand that you can send a commercial unit in for repair and you will get it back and have the option to repair... BUT... it IS NOT illegal to possess a "restricted" laser, only to sell or manufacture it. Assuming that laser is not stolen govt property I have to seriously question how any manufacturer could legally confiscate someones property solely because they sent it in for service. Refuse to service it? Yes absolutely, it's their right to refuse service to anyone for any reason unless you have a contract stating otherwise but to confiscate someones property who doesn't illegally possess it and is not the person(s) who committed the crime by selling it cannot possibly be legal. That's theft plain and simple... Unless the unit is determined to be stolen property.

                                            I'm not too worried about a second hand restricted unit failing and needing service. I'm sure they do occasionally but I've never actually seen or heard of a case of it happening and some of them have been put through the ringer.

                                            I'm not suggesting that people go out and buy a restricted unit. If a commercial unit works for your application it would make no sense to buy anything else and the main benefit I see (assuming you know how to safely operate one) is not having to worry about whether or not the device you receive is stolen property. The piddly one year warranty is hardly an advantage IMO. If you need restricted power however then you should buy that, and I think most who do so know the potential risks so there's no need to stress it so much. I also think most who buy them don't give a shit either.

                                            Making sure people know the risks of buying a restricted unit is one thing, not condoning the purchase and ILLEGAL SALE of a restricted unit (IE: suggesting they shop for one second hand) is also understandable but trying to scare someone from buying it if they it's what they need is a real turn off to consumers, just consider that. Selling your product to a potential buyer is a much better tactic than trashing the competition or using scare tactics. Present the product, give them the facts and let them decide.

                                            I know this probably will not be taken well but please don't see this as a "call out". I think overall your company has a great thing going and without a doubt offers some wonderful products but your sale tactics could use some evaluation, I see a lot of people who are turned off by a lot of your comments and I just don't see how they help business in any way. My $.02.
                                            I do not think this is a call out, I speak the truth and always have and it keep customers out of trouble. If it rubs some folks the wrong way so be it. NEVER been in this business for the almighty profit dollar and give all my customers the shirt off my back if needed and always been that way.

                                            As for returns with warranty lasers such as with Steiner and L3, I have never seen a return AFTER the warranty expires costing much at all. In fact, I just had one of the original C1 A2's go down with a flickering green vis laser from a customer of ours. The only cost was shipping, they did not even charge him for parts or labor etc.

                                            You also miss the point of possessing a restricted laser. This has been covered for years around here and elsewhere. I never said it's illegal to own a restricted IR laser and wish (I've said this a thousand times too), that all responsible US citizens who own guns can purchase these so not sure how I can be accused of scaring anyone. I'm simply stating facts.

                                            What I have said over and over again, IT IS ILLEGAL FOR ANY PERSON WHO DOES NOT HAVE AN FDA VARIANCE TO EITHER MANUFACTURE OR SELL TO AN UNQUALIFIED ENTITY. There are NO individual LE, FED or MIL sales period from the manufacturer. All orders for restricted lasers have to be done on official Agency PO and then units are DROP SHIPPED DIRECT to the agency who also sign legal agreements with the Laser Manufacture that the units will either be destroyed or sent back to the manufacturer when their duty cycles are over with the Dept. All agencies are restricted in re-selling any restricted IR lasers as they do not have any variances set up with the FDA. The only grey area of this was approx. 6 years ago a DOE agency sold off approx.100 restricted A2 units to a FFL dealer which caused a huge uproar with several DOE personnel and several job loses over that one.

                                            As for the "legal confiscation" of a manufacturer if he receives a restricted unit from a unqualified entity? Here in is the crux of what you are missing. It's not the laser manufacturing confiscating the said item...They are simply abiding by law, and they cannot return a restricted laser to an unqualified person without that person having a FDA variance. We have seen hundreds of these cases over the years and 99% of these units were either stolen or sold off illegally from an agency or Mil member. So yes, you may hate to hear this, but except for the DOE units I talked about all restricted units out there are indeed illegal that are re-sold based on current regs. Ilegal to own? NO, but the re-sale itself was and is illegal to begin with where the unit originated from the re-sale and this is why we have seen HUNDREDS of these units being confiscated over the years and HUGE Ebay sting operations and elsewhere. This is not any scare tactics but FACT we have seen first hand.

                                            In closing, these are not "sales tactics", nor internet lore. Just facts from over 10 years worth of working with BOTH restricted lasers and civilian lasers. We've had enough meetings with our attorney's, laser manufactures and several meetings with the FDA over the years to know a few things. Hope this helps.
                                            Last edited by Victor-TNVC; 12-08-2017, 02:55 PM.
                                            A veteran is someone who, at one point, wrote a blank check made payable to 'The United States of America ' for an amount of Ďup to and including their life.' That is Honor, and there are way too many people in this country who no longer understand it.
                                            www.tnvc.com

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                                            • #47
                                              Originally posted by redneckbmxer24 View Post
                                              Talking warranty to avoid having a tacticool paper weight is pretty laughable when they pretty much all only have a one year warranty anyway. Unless you're buying some airsoft crap I doubt you'd have a problem within a year outside of receiving a lemon. What happens after that? What's the bill going to be to repair, and is it repairable?

                                              For LR performance I'd take my chances with the restricted stuff getting something I know the performance of to begin with, and as long as you receive a good one then it has most likely been used enough for issues to have already popped up if it was a dud. For short range (200 yards and in) coyote blasting the commercial units will do fine.

                                              Is the MAWL a good unit? I don't know and I don't know anyone who has used one and the only one touting it here is a vendor that sells it.
                                              You may want to research the MAWL out there on your internet search routines. They're are plenty of users out there, MANY who speak the truth. I encourage you to seek out the truth on this device and some of the folks who were responsible in designing it. You do not have to believe me.
                                              A veteran is someone who, at one point, wrote a blank check made payable to 'The United States of America ' for an amount of Ďup to and including their life.' That is Honor, and there are way too many people in this country who no longer understand it.
                                              www.tnvc.com

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                                              • #48
                                                Originally posted by Killswitch Engage View Post
                                                how about a through the optic video of a mawl vs a full power peq illumination on steel at 600yd using a good day optic and clip on. that's an easy average test and puts you at the outer edge of what you need for clip on target id distance

                                                if you like i will do one with the luna elir-3 vs a full power peq-15
                                                Thanks!
                                                that would be greatly appreciated!

                                                Vic I'd love to see peq vs the mawl as well
                                                punching paper.. plinking plates.. busting bottles.. cracking clays.... shooting something!!

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