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Practicing with Night Vision ...


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  • Practicing with Night Vision ...

    15 mph SW

    Equipment: 5.56 upper with eotech, ir laser, bump helmet, pinnacle and L3 pvs-14s. Federal Lake City 62gr grn tip.

    Activity: Moving everything over to 5.56 rifle as a roll pen fell out of the .22LR and it will not go back in tightly. This disabled the bolt carrier latch on the upper and thus disables the upper. I called PA. They are sending me a new bolt carrier group to improve the performance of the system with a timney trigger, which they got and have been testing. They will also send me some roll pins. Besides making a perfect gun, your only other option, is to try to help your customers address issues, and these guys seem to be doing it.

    Note in the pic, the bipod is shown to keep the rifle upright. The eotech 3x magnifier is not shown. The PVS-14 3x magnifier, shown, is not used in immediately subsequent exercises. The attachments shown would not all be used together, but needed to be fitting to make room for all plausible attachments for current goals.

    So Eotech, laser, 14 base, now on 5.56 upper. Starting over!

    First zeroing on left target at twilight with eotech and no magnifier at 25yds, standing un supported. No night vision for these shots. Target was very dark and hard to see. But I could barely see it so I went ahead.

    Group01, Shot01 (G01.01) Low right, cranked 4 up and 4 left on the eotech
    G01.02 Shift up and left but not enough. Cranked 2 left and 1 up.
    G01.03 Hit left. G01 Score 16

    G02 Then put 14 on the rifle with nv reticle and no magnification. Group 2 is low. Hum. Does this mean I need to adjust when adding the PVS-14? I guess I've always used the magnifier on the 14 before and I didn't have to adjust. G02 score 16

    All remaining groups used PVS-14s, no magifier, 25yds standing unsupported.

    G03 - decent group but low, cranked up 4 clicks Score 18
    G04 - decent group still low, cranked up 6 clicks Score 21
    G05 - took too much time aiming, group still low, cranked up 8 clicks. I was begining to wonder what was happening to my clicks. Score 17
    G06 - Ok, this group was on target. Score 27
    G07 - First group using laser and PVS-14 on rifle, NV reticle turned off. Reasonable regarding average elevation and windage, but bloom on the laser obscures target. Have to move laser onto target and guess when there. Score 24
    G08 - Too many holes in the center of the target, to tried to aim exactly between the two targets. score NA
    G09 - Tried to aim high right. Score NA

    What did I learn from this? Well, my reaction is why did it take so many clicks to get zeroed? I need to try to find out how the eotech clicks work. With regular scopes, things are very predictable. I'm not there yet with the eotech.
    I may need to try a less flat, less reflective target surface with the ir laser. These flat, reflective surfaces generate too much bloom. Maybe I'll use some old rug pieces.

    As to those two tight groups G03, G04, I was surprised, especially as they were back to back. I was firing quickly and just focusing on the reticle and trying to see the reticle with black around it (the black circle) and when I did I fired. It seems the faster I aim/fire, the tighter the group. This is a whole different way of thinking from what I've been trying to do a longer ranges ... aim constantly and squeeze slowly. This is aim quick/fire. I hope I don't forget all I've learned about long range shooting !!! Although, maybe that is nothing !

    10 mph SW

    Equipment: 5.56 upper with eotech, 3x magnifier, 62gr.

    Activity: Checking zero at 100yds, all shots standing unsupported.

    Group 01 - Fired 3 rd group at 25yds. This is the left target. No magnifier. Score 29/30

    Group 02 - Fired 3 rd group at 100yds with 3x magnifier. Was high and left. Score 17/30
    Group 03 - Decided to try same over without the magnifier, this 3 rd group was high and left, same as with magnifier. That was what I wanted to see. So I cranked down 3 and right 3. I haven't been able to find anyone who will tell me what a click on an eotech is, so I'm just guessing. Score 7/30
    Group 04 - This group was a little less high and more centered. No magnifier. Score 18/30
    Group 05 - In cases like this FM 3-22.9 says to use "bold adjustments" so I went down 8 clicks. Got some wobble this time, but was low and a little left. No magnifier. Score 17/30.
    Group 06 - Up 3 clicks and right 2 clicks. No magnifier. Score 25/30.
    Group 07 - Added magnifier, more wobble. Score 18/30.

    Avg Score at 100yds: 17
    Avg Score at 100yds with magnifier: 17.5
    Avg Score at 100yds without magnifier: 16.75

    So, what did I learn from this?

    101 - From 25 to 100yds, the 5.56 round is climbing. I'd say I already knew that, but I reconfirmed it today .
    102 - The magnifier does not seem to affect to POI. There are two ways it might (A) If it was adjusted wrong (B) If it caused me to "aim harder" and thus spread out my shots. The magnifier does help me see the target better, but dispite that, does not seem to actually help me hit better. I've trying to build up confidence to reduce use of magnifier, so this is helping.

    Next time (night) I will try thermal and ir laser again at 100yds.
    Last edited by wigwamitus; 10-30-2017, 11:33 PM.

  • youre talking about a battle sight zero.... precision weapons arent the same and shouldnt be treated as such. 100yd zero is easy in every sense of the word. you know where youre zeroed. you can easily know your max point blank range with a ballistic program. theres just no reason to not have a 100yd zero. if your dope at 500yd is 3.5mil. and you dont wanna dial.....hold 3.5mil and be done.


    • 2017-11-11
      03 MPH SE

      Goals: Zero 6.5G(18) and try to go to 500yds to check DOPE.

      Environment: Misty with light rain. Low clouds, already fairly dark. Barely any breeze from about 160 degrees off the bullet path when at 500yds.

      Equipment: 6.5G(18) with Burris 3-15x scr-mil. AMAX123, Hornady Load. Kestrel, LRF, AB on old phone. M190 tripod with 322RC-2.

      Activity: Rolled out (on 4-wheeler) to target area and set up the boards and NRA 100yd targets.

      Tried to go prone but since we are haying this pasture any more, the cattle aren't getting the grass down low enough. I will have to bring tractor and brush hog out to cut some LOS lanes. Until then, back to the tripod. Fired 2x5rd groups at 100yds off tripod. Fist group had 3 inside the 9 ring and 2 to the right in the 8 ring. I think it was my aiming. Center of group was about an inch low, but again I think it was me aiming. Second group had 3 inside the 10 ring and 2 inside the 9 ring to the right. Center of group was good on elevation.

      When to 500yds and fire 5rd group off tripod at IPSC - D steel (600% NATO-E). All 5 hit. Held up 3.7 mils per AB

      Summary/Results: I don't think I'm perfect yet, so I won't set the zero stop. Before I went out I did crank down from the previous 500yds zero stop. And did not make any adjustments in the field. At 100yds I put 3/4 inch orange dots on the center of the target for an aiming point (these NRA targets have big black centers)


      • Thanks for these reports they are great to review and help with a benchmark for my own practice.


        • 2017-11-12
          4 MPH NNW

          Goal: Steel 400-600yds

          Environment: Overcast and misty, light breeze from NNW.

          Equipment: 6.5G(18), Burris xtr2 3-15x scr-mil, omega, harris 6-9, 2xrisers, 123 AMAX hornady load. M190 tripod with 322-rc2 head. LRF and Kestrel.

          Activity: Rolled to a spot to be able to see new target down hill on north side of creek. Shooting thru trees along the creek. Ranged the 12x24 (IPSC -D 66% NATO-E) target and got 422-428yds on 3 attempts. Called it 425yds. AB said to hold up 2.8 mils. Plugged in 5 degree down angle, just in case and AB still said to hold 2.8 mils. Threw some dead leaves and grass up in the air and read wind direction NNE by N. Repeated with same result. This would be 30 degrees off the bullet path. AB said to hold 0.9 mils for 10 MPH at 90 degrees off the bullet path. Kestrel said 3.3 MPH wind ... so held 0.3 mils right. Went ahead and cranked 2.8 mils up tough I have not set the zero stop yet. The knob is still sitting on zero mils from when I re-zeroed at 100yds yesterday. First shot was a miss and no dust observed. Realized I should thirded the 0.9 twice not once! Aimed dead center for second shot and got a hit. Repeated and got a hit. Decided the average wind along the bullet path was closer to NNW which corresponded to what I observed from the angle of the wind generator we have at 60 foot up while rolling out. That would be about 0 degrees along the bullet path. But even with my initial estimate I should've held 0.1 right not 0.3. One third for the 30 degree angle and one third for the 3.3 mph reading versus the 10 mph I keep dialed in to the AB. A 0.1 hold would be 1.5 inches and these targets are 12 inches wide. I think the first miss was actually a "wobble" error as even 0.3 is only 4.5 inches. But 2 hits in a row and I move to the next target.

          Packed up and rolled East and then south up the side of hill 1309 to a random spot and setup and 3 ranging attempts averaged 525yds. Had to move FP a little to the left to avoid shooting right through a branch in one of the trees along the creek. AB said 4.0 mils up, so cranked that. It was still about NNW along the bullet path to the target so I held dead center and missed high but centered. I could see the dust. Repeated and got same result. Held half way down towards the bottom of the target for third shot and got a hit. Repeated and got a hit.

          Results/Summary: Even with 5 degree down angle AB still said to hold 4.0 so it could be that my zero is low. I will not be able to confirm with prone until I can lower the grass enough to get a prone shot and neither the tractor nor the heavy zero turn mower are currently available. The LRF can do inclination but it apparently needs to be setup. When I pushed the relevant buttons it said "SETUP INCLINATION". So I guess I never did that. Some of my thermals have inclination in them and I've generally used those. But this was day shooting, so no thermal.
          Well, if I held six inches down when I was hitting at 525yds, that would be about 0.3 mils.

          But I do think the magnetospeed and remeasuring the distance between center of bore and center of scope (I forgot to change the scope height after I installed the risers !) has gotten me into the ballpark easily. Zeroing off the tripod introducing some error and not being sure about the inclination introduces some more ... and between those two aspecs we might be 6 inches off at 528yds. But that can be fixed. Both of those issues can be fixed and will get fixed!

          I can get to 770yds off the tripod against this target and that is the goal. But that is even farther up the hill, so need to fix the zero and need to get LRF inclination working and then 770yds can be done.


          • 2017-11-12
            05 MPH NW

            Goal: Coop patrol. Specicially we configured the metal coop door to auto close at 7pm local and auto open at 6am local. I wanted to watch it close.

            Environment: Cooled off fast after sun went down. Went from 40F to 30F in 2 hours!

            Equipment: 5.56(10.3) 77gr FM(r), TEO Mk3 35mm, 2.5x 640(60).

            Activity: Stood in shadows near barn, I could see the coop door. It is a metal door. This is the chicken door. It can auto close and open on a timer. We finally configured it today and I wanted to watch it close. I'm getting worried about the amount of critters around and don't want to only rely on the electric fence. Some critters could jump over it or even up over the enclosed run and then down into the inner fenced area and then into the coop from there. It would be hard and they might not be able to figure out how to get out. But we got the door to auto-open and close and time to set it up.

            So I could scan about to the South up a hill about 200yds West was blocked by a short low ridge, I could only see about 25 yds that way. To the north I could see into the center of our apple orchard. I saw what looked like a small deer in there trying to get some apples off the trees. I thought they all fell off, but this deer wanted some off the tree. Then I thought it sure was a tiny deer. These are not huge apple trees, the lower branches are about waist high. This deer was below those branches. My view was obscured by a zillion dead weeds and saplings along both banks of the creek. The apple orchard is on the other side of the creek. The deer was about 40 yds from me. I heard the coop door closing and watched. It went down halfway and got stuck. There must be an obstruction to clear. Then back to the deer. It started to move East and would soon be out of view. I then saw its profile clearly and realized it was a yote. The 45 degree down angle tail, the size and shape, bingo. I barely had time to get off a shot, but I did and it went down. Then I heard a howl and a second yote came into view, It was moving faster to the NW ... I put some lead on it but then it turned away to the North and headed down into the oxbow. I lost sight of it. I was not fast enough. Did not get the double.

            I tell my wife all the time, "You never know what you will wind up doing when you go outside around here." And this was another case in point.


            • 2017-11-14
              5 MPH W

              Goal: Coop Patrol

              Environment: Warm, rainy, misty, same as last several days. Thermal performance terrible. Critters are in a sea of grey.

              Equipment: 5.56(10.3), 77gr GM(r), Mk3 35mm, 2.5x, 640(60).

              Activity: Saw Coon in tree 100yds from coop, fired .. material emitted from coon and it dropped into the creek bed.


              Saw Coon/Opossum in apple orchard 25yds from Coop on other side of creek. Fired, critter turned and ran, fired critter down. It was opossum.


              • 2017-11-19
                10 MPH SW

                Goal 6.5 at 500yds

                Environment: Dark, stars with some overcast. Wind highly variable 5 mph up to 15 mph, avg 10 at 240 off bullet 280 off bullet path.

                Equipment: 6.5G(18), 123AMAX, Bushy 1600 arc elite, Kestrel 2500nv, AB on old phone, manfrotto M190, 322rc2, 4 wheeler. IPSC-D (66% NATO-E) steel silhouette. Propoane tank with torch and lighter. Ops Core with ODIN 17mm 1x 320(3) and PVS-14.

                Activity: Rolled to target and heated it with the propane. Then rolled to 500yds FP and setup tripod and checked the wind. Held 1.0 mils left. First shot high right. Held 1.2 mils left and a little lower - hit, 3rd could not clearly hear hit, so called it a miss, did not observe splash of dirt. 4th and 5th hits. Took some pics.

                Steel at 500yds on 10x

                Pond at 250yds on 3x

                Cattle at 1200yds on 6x

                4-wheeler, propane torch on front, tripod on rear. Helmet on seat, 6.5G(18) on running board.

                Results/Summary: As always the thru the lens pics are terrible compared to the real image. Trying to get the 3D angles and eye relief correct while holding the camera and blowing around in the wind is an exercise ... the wind was retarding the image as well, but it was still much better than what you see in the pics.


                • 2017-11-24
                  07 MPH W

                  Goal: 6.5G(18) steel 400-600yds

                  Environment: Breeze, avg 7 MPH net/net from the West. Sun, basically "hot" ... was down to teeshirt.

                  Equipment: 6.5G(18), xtr2 3-15x scr-mil, Horn ELD 123, M190 tripod, 322rc2 head. Magnetospeed v3, LRF, kestrel.


                  First ran 5 rds over the ms v3

                  01 2428
                  02 2418
                  03 2432
                  04 2428
                  05 2426
                  max 2432
                  min 2418
                  avg 2426
                  SD 5.1

                  I think that is the smallest SD I've seen !

                  Then rolled out to 100yds zeroing spot and set up the tripod. Grass too high to see targets from prone. Spent 20rd zeroing the sh^t out of it ... I had the zero stop set such that I had to hold down 1 mil to zero. The xtr2 are great budget scopes, but resetting the zero stop is not tooless, so I couldn't do it in the field.
                  When shooting with this setup ... I manage the "wobble" ... the inevitable movement of the reticle around the aiming point ... I note the extent of the wobble and move the center of the wobble on to the aiming point. For three of the last three shots, I was able to quarter the 3/4 inch orange dot I put in the center of the NRA 100yd target and hit inside the (X) ring about a quarter of an inch to the right, so I clicked one click left and called it good. The other two hits straddled the horizontal line on both sides of the bull in the (10) ring. Most of the wobble is left to right and the wind was moving me about, even down in the lower ground where the zeroing spot is.

                  Then packed up and rolled to the 425 FP and setup.

                  The kestrel said 4.5 mph 315 degrees off the bullet path. That would've been .25 mil left ... but I am shooting over a creek and I know better ... so I held half a mil ... on elevation AB said up 2.8 but I cranked 1.8 since I was zeroed at 1 mil down.

                  miss - I could see the dust to the left a few inches, so I shifted to .25 mil I told tell the wind had died to almost nil around me ...
                  miss - I could hear the wind picking up considerably, so held 1 mil
                  miss - the wind blew me around and I missed to the right. increased hold to 1.2 with the increasing wind, est. to be spiking to 12 mph ...

                  ... everything made sense ... so rolled up the hill and stopped at a point I thought would be about 600yds ...

                  Three repetitions of the LRF said 580yds. The kestrel said 4.1 mph at 270 ... the AB said 4.8, so I cranked to 3.8. AB also said 1.3 for 10 mph, so I held 1 mil to start.

                  hit ... got lucky ...
                  miss .. to the right by inches ... held 1.25
                  hit ...
                  miss ... blew me around missed by inches to the right ... no change to the hold ...
                  miss ... same result ... hard to control the left to right wobble in the wind ... you really just have to time it right ...
                  hit ... it's a crap shoot, but sometimes you get lucky ...
                  miss ... not changing the hold, just getting blown around ...
                  hit ...
                  hit ... my luck held strong for the last two ... that and the wind was steadier ...

                  pic from a different day at 680 FP ... but same hill, same target ...


                  So one thing I'm doing is, I was getting stove pipes, so I readjusted the gas block and after these rounds I'm up to 105 rds thru the 6.5G(18) will no issues. Evidence mounting that gas block needing adjustment was the issue.

                  Also with the wind blowing the shooter around, this is the limitation of shooting off the tripod ... not what the wind does to the bullet, but what it does to the shooter.
                  I have been practicing the carabiner thingy on the belt loop with the sling through it and twisted around the tripod in the house ... but haven't used that in the field yet ... maybe it will help a little. So need to try that.
                  Last edited by wigwamitus; 11-25-2017, 11:10 AM.


                  • PR-Infrared (where I got my UTC-x) got approval to show their price of $11,900 for new FLIR T-75s ...


                    Depending on who you talk to these can support magnification on the day scope of 12x up to 16x ... but either way ... this is definitely a long distance thermal clipon.

                    People who have looked through both, say the UTC-x is a clearer image, but if the $11,900 price had been around when I got the UTC, it would;ve been a lot tougher choice.

                    Do I need a T-75 as a backup !!??


                    • RAPTAR won't work on badger mount behind UTC ... UTC is too high.

                      So, trying 3 o'clock.

                      Here is my zeroing rig.


                      1 - Zero day scope
                      2 - co-witness day scope to vis laser on the RAPTAR in the house (this gets the rough zero)
                      3 - co-witness day scope with ir-laser on the RAPTAR outside (using 14 to look thru the day scope) as far away as possible.
                      4 - Test distances for known distance objects

                      Actually the above process was faster and easier than I expected. At first I though the distances were a little short, then I realized the RAPTAR was set to meters
                      The distances are fine.

                      So next I will try it in the field with the UTC on there!


                      • Well, went out yesterday to try RAPTAR in the field and got "error 1" message for all ranging attempts.
                        Came back to the house and checked with the viz laser and it was off 1 mil right and 3 mils low.
                        I've been told that running it on the front rail does work and I guess I am proving that!
                        Getting a scope ring mount that will work with the UTC will be a custom job and will take a month or so at the machine shop (they are usually several weeks behind). In the mean time, I can try it at night by rezeroing each time I go out, it isn't that hard.

                        This is not a RAPTAR issue, this is a mounting issue.
                        The UTC clipon is too high. The apertures of the RAPTAR do not clear the UTC when mounted with the Badger RAPTAR mounting system. Not even close. So will have to make a new Badger like system that is half inch to 1 inch higher. Next challenge is to try to figure out how much higher. But 1 inch would do it for sure.


                        • Would an AR type riser block work for an interim/test ?
                          Blackjack Pershing taught us all we need to know about dealing with Muslim Extremists.
                          911 is government sponsered dial-a-prayer
                          1st Cav. has been,"C" troop 1/9 Cav 68-69-70 RVN
                          The wind is not your bitch
                          Generally, you are the winds bitch. Fact!


                          • I tried that first ...

                            The Badger RAPTAR mounting rail LOOKs like a pic rail, but it is not. It is its own critter.

                            The Badger scope top mount for the RAPTAR has little "bumps" on the sides of it. These bumps help push up against the 45 degree down angle undersides of the RAPTAR and keep it from rattling around up there.

                            RAPTAR comes with a slide on pic rail riser which interfaces with the pic rail on the underside of this riser and interfaces with the RAPTAR on the topside of this riser. But that will not slip on to the badger RAPTAR mount because it cannot slide over the bumps.

                            I could machine off the bumps.

                            But I think I will be better off getting a custom (higher) mount. I can then either sell the badger mount or keep it to use with the PVS-30 I have on my wish list.

                            The badger RAPTAR mount was not designed to work with high offset clipons like the UTC (look at the pic including the thermal clipon above). That is the issue. None of the parts are "wrong" they just are not designed to work with the clipon I am using. I need a mount that is designed to work with higher clipons.


                            • 2017-12-06
                              15 MPH NW

                              Goal: Check lasers

                              Environment: Cool and windy from the NW with gusts to 20 mph. Stars visible. Moon began to rise near the end of the session.

                              Equipment: Bump helmet, PVS-14, PAS-29 10mm 1x 320(30), ODIN 17mm 1x 320(30), B850 ir-illuminator, 3 Lumen RGBW viz light. From top to bottom:
                              .22lr, Laser Max ir-laser, eley 40gr hp subsonic
                              5.56(10.5), PAQ-4C ir-laser, FM(r) 77gr
                              5.56(10.3), CQBL-1 ir-laser, FM(r) 77gr


                              Set up three targets on the target board one above the other, 50yd NRA paper targets. All firing from 50yd FP, off tripod using HOG saddle to hold the guns.

                              5.56(10.5) up first. I was able to co-witness the ir-laser to the already zeroed holosun P515 reflex sight last night. Three round group, 2 inches, 1 in 10, 9 and 8. I aimed by lining up laser to the right and moving in from the right, I could use the verticle string of targets to line up. But I was pulling the trigger a little too early to judge from the results. But this laser was hitting within tolerance. I aimed the laser at objects between 50 and 100yds away and the laser looked much better at distance. It had bloomed up a bit at 50yds but at 100-200yds it was a tiny dot. I did use the ir-illuminator to try to suppress the bloom. The carbine is double zeroed at 50/160 with maximum verticle offset 1.7 inches high at 120yds. And now so is the laser.

                              5.56(10.3) up second. I had removed the Trijicon mk3 to send it in for 60mm upgrade. This thre round group was off the paper. I will need to mount the Burris 536 scope on it, zero and co-witness the laser and try again. Looked at the laser from a distance it was not as tight a beam as the PAQ-4C, but I think it was brighter.

                              .22LR(16) up third. Three round group 4 inches to the right, 2 inch group. Checked the laser at distance, it was actually tiny. I'm using a custom kydex cover on this laser and that really helps supress the bloom. Also, this laser was the smallest on the target. Crazy that the lowest cost laser of the three has the smallest beam over all (of these three anyway, I have three others).

                              Results/Summary: Well only the PAQ-4C is within tolerance, that's because I was able to co-witness it last night. The others haven't had zero checked in a year. I will zero the Burris AR-536 scope on the 5.56(10.3) and then co-witness the CQBL to the scope. Then will move the scope to the .22lr (where it will stay). While the Mk3 is out, I'll be practicing up with the lasers.

                              I've never used exactly this setup on the helmet with the ODIN on the left eye and the 14/PAS-29 on the right eye, but it worked. I'm not used to nucing the ODIN with my left hand and that will take some more practice. Otherwise, everything worked fine.


                              • I feel soooo stoooo pid ...

                                So a few posts above ^^ I report that the RAPTAR will not work on the 12 o'clock behind the UTC because the UTC is too high.

                                Well today I was looking at RAPTAR mount pics on the internet and found this pic ...

                                And I realized that was a UTC up there !!!

                                And I said to myself ,"If it works for that guy it might work for me!"


                                So I just tried it ... the viz laser worked and the LRF worked. Problem solved. No custom solution needed. So, stoo pid !!!

                                In the old Ken Burns movie about the Civil War, there is a great story.

                                McClellan has just landed on the York Peninsula in 1862 and is advancing towards Richmond. He is riding out ahead of his Army with some staff officers checking out the route. They come to a creek. McClellan halts and asks, "I wonder how deep that creek is?" One of the staff officers rides his horse out into the creek. The water comes up the to belly of the horse and the staff officer hollers out "About this deep General !!"

                                Had I been McClellan - I would've felt Stooo pid ... and well that's exactly how I feel now. I should have just TRIED IT. Instead of "Admiring the problem that wasn't"

                                BTW, the staff officer in question was one "George A. Custer" ... and this particular act might have been the smartest thing GAC ever did. But it is still a useful lesson. Don't spend your time wondering about sh^t that is very easy for you to just TRY AND SEE.

                                In my case, while the top of the objective bell of the clipon is clearly much higher than the centers of apertures of the RAPTAR, the sides of the bell taper off quickly enough that the lasers can still see forward. And now I have verified that by testing.


                                • 2017-12-10
                                  5 MPH NW

                                  Goal: Check RAPTAR

                                  Environment: clear, stars, no moon, wind from NW.

                                  Equipment: 5.56(18), L&S 3-18x H58, PVS-14 mounted on rear of scope, later, UTC-x mounted in front. Manfrotto m055 tripod with 322RC-2 head.

                                  The pic shows all the gear but the UTC was not mounted during the zeroing process.


                                  STEP01 - Zero ir-laser to the reticle.
                                  I had already zeroed the day scope at 100yds. Badger finally sent me the correct screws to mount the RAPTAR mount to the scope rings, so I did that and mounted the RAPTAR, testing in the house revealed the lasers could all see past the bell of the UTC. In the RAPTAR the three lasers, the red viz, the ir-pointer and the LRF laser all shine thru the same aperture. Though from slightly different positions.
                                  So I had zeroed the xiz laser to the reticle in the house. That gets it close enough that when you go outside and try to zero the ir-laser at longer distance you can see it in the FOV of the scope.
                                  When mounted at 12 o'clock on top of the scope, the adjustments just happen to work just like most day scopes. Counter clock wise on the knob on the top of the RAPTAR is "up" CW is down. For the knob on the side, turning the top of the knob towards you is right and top of the knob away is left. So this is easy to remember! So, I powered on the 14. I pointed the reticle at a mineral feeder I knew to be 415yds away and cranked the magnification all the way up to 18x. I set the selector switch on the RAPTAR to IR-laser, which is one click CCW from off. Then adjusted the ir-laser on to the center of the reticle on the mineral feeder. I Had attached the pressure switch, so I was using that to turn the laser on/off. Then I hit the range button and read 378 and did a little arithmetic and got 415 yds ! Further more, I could SEE the distance on the back of the display with my left eye, without taking my right eye off the reticle on the target. I had not expected that !!!.
                                  I then checked a tree at 74 meters and another tree at 91 meters.

                                  STEP02 - Test with the thermal clipon
                                  Then I removed the 14 assembly from the back of the day scope.
                                  And I mounted the UTC-x to the front. I use larue rail clips, so I can feel the top to start the
                                  I re-lased the mineral feeder. This time, my eye was a little closer to the back of the scope and I could not quite see over the top of the turrets. I rechecked the two trees and they matched. So I was lasing targets with the RAPTAR with the UTC clipped on giving me 18x with the H58 reticle. This was the goal !

                                  I need to take it out to the pasture at our highest point, were I can lase a known object at 770yds

                                  Results/Summary: L&S says they will replace the M5B2 turrets I have for the M5C2 turrets for $220. The C2 turrets are lower, I bet I'll be able to see over them. I might do that upgrade. I was thinking about it anyway since I do not like the B2 elevation turret.