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  • Warner Tool Flat Line Projectile 122gr 6.5 Variant

    Warner Tool Flat Line Projectile 122gr 6.5 Solids




    22.75Ē Bartlein Barrel with 1-8.5 Twist chambered in 6.5CM spun up in a stock Accuracy International AX308 shooting the 122gr Flat Line Projectile.
    122gr Flat Line Projectile AX Rifle
    1250 yards - 8 Mils

    1440 yards - 10 Mils

    1778 yards - 14.6 Mils

    Do I have your attention yet ?

    The more we explore the more we see how the little things can stack up. To many, the choice in the bullets they use can be a simple one. Cheapest, a specific weight, manufacturer, these short answers tell the story. As I noted, 2017 is truly the year of the bullet. As technology trickles down, the bullet is becoming a tipping point. Not just in the solid projectile market, better jacketed bullets are being released each month. Although Warner Tool has made 2017 the year of the Flat Line Projectile.

    See if this sounds familiar, you pick a bullet, maybe by weight based on your twist rate, then by manufacturer. You do your very best to load it so you have the smallest possible SD. Maybe youíre annealing the brass, checking the consistency of the bullet weight, invest in the most expensive powder trickler you can suffer. You put in a ton of effort, trimming, sorting, weighing, and measuring, all to squeeze that extra 1/4Ē out of the group. Could be itís not enough, we are still subject to the most mass produced, least controlled item out of the entire system. The BulletÖ

    122gr Flatline Projectile
    How many times have we seen recalls for lots of bullets ? The multi part manufacturing process is not infallible, thin jackets, inferior lead, melting tips, the microscopic nature of ballistics will exploit any flaw in the process. We tend to blame other components to our system, but we are starting to see the limitations the bullets put on us. Most people have no means to explore a bullet problem, but they definitely exist.

    Enter the Monolithic Projectile.

    This is the only way to make sure each bullet is always the same, using a lathe turned solid. But not all solids are created equal, the materials, designs, and twist rates required separates the good from the bad. I have seen solids do some amazing shooting, and I have seen them never reach the target regardless of how hard we tried.

    My history with solids is a long one, I have gone to great lengths to work with them, even using custom made barrels that would not work with anything else. There are certain things I look for, the twist rate necessary, the material used, and of course, the cost. You have to expect at certain amount of latitude when it comes to the cost of solids. The price is not right for everyone, especially when we can stay within our Error Budget using factory ammo. But we can certainly get our monies worth when we want to jump to the next level. Welcome to the Next Level - Flat Line Projectile

    122gr Warner Tool Flat Line Projectile
    Warner Tools understands solid bullets. They answer all my questions the right way,
    • No Special Twist Rate
    • Copper Material that can Interact with Jacketed Bullets
    • 1 Piece Design
    • Not over doing the weight

    This is what we are seeing with the Flat Line Projectiles. We can interchange the Flat Line Projectile with any jacketed bullet without ill effect. You donít need a special twist rate, most standard twists work within the class. This allows the design, materials, and weight to reach a higher speed. They are not going too heavy, instead letting speed rule the day. Most try to go too heavy which is a mistake. Heavier works but only if you can reach a minimum speed, I get floating them out there, but when the conditions turn sour, that slow moving bullet is not gonna give you the right response. Going to slow effects the BC too. Speed Wins the DayÖ

    Small SD Numbers were found in every load
    The Argument for the 122gr Flat Line Projectile right now over a heavier bullet is the speed. 3100fps is very easy to reach. A mild load with H4350 was over 2900fps, still respectable, and probably a good load for a gas gun, but when you can go over 3100fps, things change. You start to exploit the benefits of using a Flat Line Projectile.

    I am not an anal retentive reloader. I think what turned me off, besides the time involved, or the money needed to reduce that time, is the idea of people doing endless load development. Early on, when the matches were spinning up heavy and Sniperís Hide was a bigger part of that, youíd have members that could never attend a match because of ďLoad DevelopmentĒ. Seems you read more about the guys fiddling with their load trying to squeeze every millimeter out of it vs taking the time to go out and enjoy shooting. That bothered me, and might have turned me off to the process a bit. But for a solid, or a new bullet I no problem jumping in with both feet. The consistency of the Flat Line Projectile made it easy.

    Prior to starting Josh Kunz of Patriot Valley Arms fed me some starting data. I knew most were using H4350 for their 6.5s. Josh recommended 43gr of Varget, and after visiting Mile High Shooting to pick up some fresh Varget, Adam @MHSA offered up some IMR 4166 to try out. The Load

    Easy to Load with Great downrange results
    In order to establish a starting point I used all three powders with some once fired Prime Ammo Brass. I full length sized the brass and cleaned it up. Cleaned up the necks and prepared to drop each.
    • 43gr of Varget
    • 41.5gr of 4166
    • 44gr of H4350
    • OAL - 2.820Ē for each
    • FED GM210M Primers

    With only 25 rounds of 100 loaded, I headed out to the range to give each load a try. Each load was shot over a MagnetoSpeed Chronograph alongside a LabRadar at the same time.

    43gr Varget
    • 3147fps
    • SD 8.8fps
    • Accuracy 1.25Ē @ 100 yards

    44gr H4350
    • 2918fps
    • SD 8.0fps
    • Accuracy 3/4Ē @ 100 yards

    41.5gr 4166
    • 3104fps
    • SD 6.5fps
    • Accuracy 1/2Ē @ 100 yards

    I also took the remaining rounds to 800 yards in order to gauge the potential drop at distance.

    Average Mils used was 4.0 Mils with a casual zero. I zeroed the rifle with Prime 130gr 6.5CM the handholds were within an inch of center so I just held the difference.

    The easy answer rather than play with seating depth was to go with the IMR 4166 load. Based on the initial speed, accuracy and low Standard Deviation, it was the best way to get up and running without using any more of the bullets. So I loaded up 65 of the remaining 75 rounds. Long Range Laboratory

    1 Mile Target - We scored 4 out of 5 hits using 14.6 mils
    Condition:

    Barometric Pressure: 25.24

    Temperatures: Start 64 degrees, End 80 degrees

    Humidity: 25%

    Density Altitude: 6000 to 6500ft

    Altitude of Range: 4500ft

    Wind 3 to 5 MPH

    Direction of Fire: 290

    Latitude: 39

    Rifle used Accuracy International AX308 (small firing pin)

    22.75Ē Bartlein Barrel

    1-8.5 Twist

    Scope: S&B 3-20x Ultra Short zeroed at 100 yards

    LabRadar was used to gather dope in order to have more data.

    300 yards - .7

    400 yards - 1.2

    500 yards - 1.8

    600 yards - 2.5

    800 yards - 4.2

    1000 yards - 6.0

    1250 yards - 8.0

    1440 yards - 10.0

    1500 yards - 10.8

    1600 yards - 12.0

    1778 yards - 14.6 Mils

    These were actual impacts on target. We measured an increased Muzzle Velocity of 3122fps with the load. Giving us an SD of 12.5fps across all the shots recorded. Winds were light, switching back and forth from behind and right at 3-5MPH.

    This is our baseline for determining the BC for the bullet. Originally we were told Warner Tool had their bullets measured over Doppler. I know this to be true because I was in on that effort. The measured BC was around .635, which is what I used for my TRY DOPE numbers. This was my basic starting point to get me in the ballpark.

    Using this BC and the MV of 3100fps, I was going over most of the targets and had to use the data above vs what JBM gave me. Spotting alone can be tough when you drop over the top of target, especially beyond 1000 yards. Lucky for me it has been dry, and I was able to pick up the splash and adjust. Wind was really a Non-Issue, I only used 1.5 Mils at 1 Mile. Better BCs

    recorded dope for the 122gr Bullet
    Using the condition above, which are very favorable to long range shooting, we measured the BC for our shots to be .670 G1. I used G1 and the numbers are lining up perfect. I did attempt to get a G7 number and what I came up with is .335 G7. That should work perfect given my conditions.

    BCs are subject to the speed and conditions, as well as the rifle used. So this BC is uniquely mine. I believe the Doppler data to be based on a speed of 2900fps. Itís a great starting point, G1 = .635 to .650. It can depend on your system.

    The Flatline Projectile BC often comes into question, but let me assure you, the numbers published by Warner Tool are within 2% of your results at the given average speed. No doubt your results will vary, they will not be off by much. You want to determine your own BC based on your system. By matching the BC used in a ballistic computer to your system the end results will be more accurate. But the numbers for the Flat Line Projectiles have been very good.

    I know the 30 cal bullets were tested, as well as this 6.5 Flatline. So you have a Doppler determined numbers which will be updated shortly.

    My range is laid out and measured via the most expensive Vectronix Laser Range Finder available. We have calibrated wind flags, as well, our experience at this range must be taken into account too. It gives us a great way to measure the values used. These numbers are solid, you can take them to the bank. My trial numbers all went over the targets, and I used .650 as a G1 BC to start me off. The Benefits of Monolithic Solids

    JBM Dope Chart with .670 BC
    In all honesty, Solid Bullet are not for everyone. They are for those who want an edge over the next guy. Furthermore they are there to push the envelope. The problem with most solids are the designs, and materials. They can be finicky to load, and often require an aggressive twist range. Consider this, I have a 338 solid that uses a gain twist barrel of 13-5.4, you canít even use a jacketed bullet behind it. By the same token, with brass based solids you have to almost dedicate the rifle to just shooting those bullets. Those you see that are a gold color have a high brass content and donít mix well with jacketed bullets. You have to clean the barrel completely when moving between a solid and jacketed bullet. This extra effort combined with the higher cost make them less popular.

    Solids done right, like the Flatline Projectiles, work in your standard rifles and can be mixed. This is important. The design is not so aggressive as to require a unique twist rate, so you can fill them in between your standard loads. I zeroed with Prime Ammo, and then shot the Flatline Bullets. Where do I see the 122gr Flat Line Projectile fitting in,

    41.5gr of IMR 4166
    This is an easy question because it does more than you might realize? For sure the competition shooter, the smaller bullet going faster is gonna help you in a PRS type competition. The Speed will not only help with positional shooting, itís pretty close to what guys are seeing with the 6mm. Over 3100fps with a 122gr bullet you balance that speed with better wind drift vs the much lighter 105. As well if the match has targets beyond 1000 yards you are at a definite advantage.

    Into ELR Distances, if you want to explore shooting targets beyond 1000, 1250 yards, etc, here you can do it without needing to invest in a big expensive magnum. The investment in the Flatline Projectile is all you need. If you are traveling to a location that has targets beyond 1000, you are still viable. Supersonic flight for me is beyond 2000 yards. At least 2150 yards, if you are at sea level you are supersonic to 1900 yards. Your 6.5 chambered rifle is now easily 1 mile capable. I hit 4 out of 5 shots at 1778 yards using 14.6 mils. That is insane.

    Extend the capability of a gas gun. This bullet like the 160gr .30 Cal Flatline will work in a semi auto. I think the 2900fps load is about perfect to run in a gasser. This will push this rifle to the next level especially if you want to compete with it.

    6.5x47 chambering, where this can certainly shine. I find the 6.5x47 to be very good, but most people opt for the 6mm variant, because it fixes the speed problem. Normally with the heavier high bc bullets, the 6.5x47x is slower than it's more common counterparts. The Warner Tool Flat Line Projectile can get you the speed with a super high BC out of a 122gr bullet. This projectile in a 6.5x47 would be deadly across the board. You'll not only gain that lost 50fps you'll add to it. Conclusions - 6.5 Flat Line Projectile

    122gr Warner Tool Flat Line Projectile
    I am super impressed with what Warner Tool and Josh Kunz is doing with the Flat Line Projectile line. They are embracing the technology, have hit on a great design, and are using materials that donít require you to clean the rifle when switching loads.

    Warner Tool Company is well established and is supporting the Flat Line Projectile with data, load information, and supply.

    What this did to my 22Ē AX is nothing short of amazing. I read an article about the 6.5CM replacing the 300WM. Using the right bullet, itís very easy to see. I know the Facebook crowd like to bag on the 6.5CM but itís a very good round. Itís accurate, well supported with inexpensive factory match ammo, and itís being included by most of the big manufacturers. I also understand the price puts this bullet out of the reach for a lot of people. But this is not designed for plinking, you have to put it in the context for it is designed. Precision Rifle shooting is not cheap, this is for guys who understand that and want an edge.

    The nice thing, you can shoot a course of fire using standard, jacketed bullets inside 800 yards and then switch to Flatline Solids for every thing beyond. If you determine the difference you can easily do it, and most Ballistic Apps will adjust for the offsets. Zeroing with 130gr Prime 6.5CM ammo, the Flatline was within an Inch. I can work with that.

    To illustrate my point, take the Ruger Precision Rifle crowd. For example, the ability to accurately shoot your Ruger Precision Rifle to 1 mile, opens the door for people to understand the skill level necessary to engage targets beyond 1000 yards. Because itís supersonic itís not a fight when it comes to wind. Itís predictable in the wind. Sure floating certain rounds into the subsonic region can work, but itís a less predictable. We want to stay within supersonic flight and at 1778 yards I was still going 1390fps, truly the year of the bullet.

    Use Caution when Handloading the numbers I am using may not work in your rifles.

    Give Warner Tool a Call Directly as they have the bullets in Stock but the website will not be 100% updated until after this posts.

    Warner Tool Company

    201 Old Homestead Hwy.

    N. Swanzey, NH 03431

    603-352-9521

    info@warner-tool.com

    For Links Hit:


    Warner Tool Website

    Patriot Valley Arms

    Exterior Ballistics Sniper's Hide

    Ballistic Solvers on Sniper's Hide

    Sniper's Hide Reloading Section

    JBM Ballistics
    Watch your thoughts; they become words.
    Watch your words; they become actions.
    Watch your actions; they become habits.
    Watch your habits; they become character.
    Watch your character; it becomes your destiny.
    --Frank Outlaw

  • #76
    Originally posted by Bull81 View Post

    Im interested in these as well for a 6.5x47 what kind of accuracy were you getting and did you have any of the stability issues some others have reported?
    So far, I have only seen one person post that he thought he was having stability issues. Have you seen others?

    Comment


    • #77
      Originally posted by lash View Post

      So far, I have only seen one person post that he thought he was having stability issues. Have you seen others?
      No but I thought I saw were someone said something about it being on the edge of stability but I could have miss read. Definitely interested in these slick little pills

      Comment


      • #78
        I'm pretty sure that these will be a great option for certain applications. If I recall, optimal twist rate is 8, but like always, factors like MV and other barrel specific details will have an effect on individual results.

        If I were not so busy with stretching out the .338 Flatline solids as far as I can possibly take them in my less than optimal factory Savage barrel right now, I would probably be playing with these instead.

        Comment


        • #79
          Well, I haven't seen any comments on these for a while, so I'll add a little more data. I tried a sample group of these with H4350, 26" 8 twist barrel, 260 Rem, loaded fairly long (2.935 OAL). First, they were a pleasure to load. Very consistent, no need for any kind of sorting, very consistent seating, pretty much perfect from a production standpoint. I also got very consistent speeds and low SDs when they were fired. Unfortunately, they did not group well for me. I'm going to try again with deeper seating and see what happens, but it will be a while before I have time to do that.

          For the folks using quickload, I got something very close to my actual speed curve using a 121.9gn bullet weight and 7700psi start pressure with H4350, the actual case capacity for my brass and approximate bullet measurements done by hand. I haven't tried it with any other powder yet, and even with H4350 it was over a small range, so I don't know if those variables will provide a reasonable approximation outside of the conditions I used.

          Comment


          • #80
            I shot another couple of charges with IMR 4166 in my .260 Tikka CTR. The rounds were all over the place. I'm going to switch to Varget to see if I can get them to group together.

            Comment


            • #81
              Have any of you guys talked to Dan Warner directly to get his take on optimal loads recommendations and other pointers? I know that he is usually more than willing to offer up advice and assistance.

              Comment


              • #82
                Anyone try this in a 6.5 Creedmoor over Lapua Brass and Federal Gold Medal Match Small Rifle primers?
                2015 AI AX308
                24" Bartlein 6.5 Creed w/ lil bastard
                S&B PMII 5-25x56 H59
                Spuhr 4002
                Atlas

                Comment


                • #83
                  Originally posted by lash View Post
                  Have any of you guys talked to Dan Warner directly to get his take on optimal loads recommendations and other pointers? I know that he is usually more than willing to offer up advice and assistance.
                  For my 260 Rem, I asked Dan for load recommendations and he provided a quickload-generated list of possible loads.

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    still keeping a close eye on these to see if anyone can get results......or get any speeds near what frank got in his review.

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      I'm throwing in the towel and giving up. I've tried 5 different powders and different seating depths and the best I could do was maybe a four inch group at 100 yards. In case someone asks, yes I did do some load tests with information provided by Dan. They just won't seem to stabilize in my Tikka .260 CTR. Most of the holes on paper are oblong in shape.

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        If the holes are oblong, you have a clear case of instability. What is the advertised twist rate of your barrel? What is the barrel type (cut or buttoned)? No load or seating depth will cure the instability if it is a characteristics of the barrel are to blame.

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Tikka is a 1-8 twist with 4 grooves. Hammer Forged
                          Watch your thoughts; they become words.
                          Watch your words; they become actions.
                          Watch your actions; they become habits.
                          Watch your habits; they become character.
                          Watch your character; it becomes your destiny.
                          --Frank Outlaw

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Originally posted by Lowlight View Post
                            Tikka is a 1-8 twist with 4 grooves. Hammer Forged
                            Thanks Lowlight and Dan I really do appreciate they information and advise you gave me. I was so hoping they would work. I did hit the speed i was hoping for very easily. If anybody does get these to work in a factory Tikka CTR .260 barrel please update the thread or PM me.

                            Jason

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              I pulled my factory tikka barrel otherwise I would give it a try...
                              Watch your thoughts; they become words.
                              Watch your words; they become actions.
                              Watch your actions; they become habits.
                              Watch your habits; they become character.
                              Watch your character; it becomes your destiny.
                              --Frank Outlaw

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Still watching this, I thought others may run into a stability issue. AB stability calculator says for my conditions I need at the minimum 1/7 twist rate. I'm only 520ft altitude.

                                Comment


                                • #91
                                  While it may be close, the AB stability calculator is not absolute with regard to solids. In fact, this goes back to what we have been saying since we started making these: "Forget what you know with regard to data on jacketed bullets and what is printed with respect to load data, as it does not apply". Solids are certainly a different animal and require different practices, including load densities and barrel twist rates for stability. An 8 twist is certainly fine for our 121's. While a 7 would be even better, an 8 is certainly good. You can always go faster than what we recommend, but not slower. The 8 is what we recommend for the 121, and we know it to be stable in an 8 because we have tested it and we have many shooting them in 8's now with great success.

                                  I have stressed to many that you should verify the twist in your barrel too. Even though it is advertised, or even stamped with a specific twist, there mare be some variation due to mfg process and tolerance that could put you in the unstable zone.

                                  There are issues, however, with certain 'factory' barrels that simply do not perform. It is not in every case, but there is certainly a track record with Savage barrels and those reporting troubles. Some are working fine, some are not. My theory is that is it because of they way they are made.
                                  Last edited by Dan Warner; 05-31-2017, 06:59 AM.

                                  Comment


                                  • #92
                                    Has anyone on the hide other than frank had any good success with these? I saw another thread of a guy having problems loading with a creed. Just curious if anyone has gotten them to work, and if so what are they experiencing.

                                    Comment


                                    • #93
                                      So yesterday I loaded up the last 4 bullets with the following:

                                      brass: Lapua
                                      primer: 210M
                                      powder: 39.0gr Varget
                                      coal: 2.830"

                                      I had cleaned the hell out of my barrel and then fired a few strings before firing the last 4 solids. This time I was able to get a group around 1.9" at 100 yards (before it was about a foot or more) and the holes in the target appeared normal. I should have shot them over the chrono but didn't. I may order another 50 to try again. I'm thinking in my Tikka CTR that the bullet may want a very long jump.

                                      Comment


                                      • #94
                                        Fwiw, I'm jumping mine pretty well even loaded long in my .338 and they seem fine. Another thing to try, since I haven't seen it mentioned, is to not mix regular jacketed loads and the solids while doing load development and shooting these. I know that there are claims that these are different than other solids, but I didn't start to get decent results until I stopped shooting anything but solids from the barrel. It's almost as if I had to "season" the barrel for them.

                                        That's just my experience and opinion.

                                        Comment

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