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  • Shot Show

    Any ELR events, talks, seminars etc being held at the show this year?

  • #2
    Yes, a bunch

    we have the ELR Shoot at Front Sight on Sunday with the AB guys,

    There are the meetings that will be held inside SHOT about these "World Records" attempting to standardize the requirements, etc,


    Watch your thoughts; they become words.
    Watch your words; they become actions.
    Watch your actions; they become habits.
    Watch your habits; they become character.
    Watch your character; it becomes your destiny.
    --Frank Outlaw

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Lowlight View Post

      There are the meetings that will be held inside SHOT about these "World Records" attempting to standardize the requirements, etc,
      Hi,

      All these World Records are just about the most controversial and silly part of the ELR world there is. Because bottom line is that NONE of them are actual World Records.....they are personal records, team records, organization/association records but none are proper world records. The World Record thing has been going on since the original cheytac & associates days, it just has never stopped lol.

      Nobody has put the time, effort and money into having any of those "records" sanctioned by Guinness and even when someone does it will not hold much weight because at that point it doesn't become "O lets beat that record", it becomes "O lets rewrite that criteria to match what we want"....it will become a world of "record" rewriting vs "record" breaking.

      The "World Record" claims of this and that are nothing more than marketing fodder at this point....they hold no water. It really is all a mute point at this time.

      Here are a few examples of just how silly rewriting an "Official World Record" criteria can get.....
      Something like these "changes/differences" not only can, BUT WILL make for "Different" New World Records. All depends on how you want to write the criteria for Guinness to validate. That can get as detailed and "cluttered" as patents can lol.

      Suppressed
      Unsuppressed
      Optic with magnification over 20x
      Optic with magnification under 20x
      Rifle with weight over 20lbs
      Rifle with weight under 20lbs
      Rifle with threaded on muzzle brake
      Rifle with clamped on muzzle brake
      Projectile over 350gr weight
      Projectile under 350gr weight
      Projectile over 3in long
      Projectile under 3in long
      Case capacity over 175gr
      Case capacity under 175gr
      Case length over 4in long
      Case length under 4in long
      Rifle with 2 stage trigger
      Rifle with single stage trigger
      Rifle with double set trigger
      Rifle with magazine
      Rifle without magazine
      Magazine with 5rd capacity or over
      Magazine with 5rd capacity or under
      Rifle with folding stock
      Rifle with right side folding stock
      Rifle with left side folding stock
      Rifle with fiberglass stock
      Rifle with aluminum chassis
      Rifle with carbon fiber stock
      Rifle with ejector
      Rifle without ejector
      Rifle with fixed bipod
      Rifle with folding bipod
      ASL of 3000+
      ASL of 3000-
      Wind speed of 10mph+
      Wind speed of 10mph-
      Target angle of 30deg+
      Target angle of 30deg-
      YADA YADA YADA


      Can't shooters just go out and push their desired distances further and further without claiming this is a record and that is a record?


      Sincerely,
      THEIS
      Last edited by THEIS; 12-05-2017, 01:18 PM.

      Comment


      • #4
        By creating a standard you begin to shoot all this bullshit down.

        A lot of it is one group claiming records, as noted, for marketing purposes.

        But an organization/committee is forming to address this stuff

        Has nothing to with Guinness
        Watch your thoughts; they become words.
        Watch your words; they become actions.
        Watch your actions; they become habits.
        Watch your habits; they become character.
        Watch your character; it becomes your destiny.
        --Frank Outlaw

        Comment


        • #5
          Hi,

          An unbiased organization and committee would be great. Issue is getting it unbiased....

          I can be of assistance in regards to international locations and venues for 2 mile comps if wanted. We have locations in Ras al Khaimah, ZA, Ukraine, Poland, Jordan and Austria.
          We can also swing Big Sandy if needed.

          Sincerely,
          THEIS

          Comment


          • #6
            Where are the records based on this year's requirements?

            Please consider allowing records to be set using targets smaller than the established target's area.

            Thanks,

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Lowlight View Post

              There are the meetings that will be held inside SHOT about these "World Records" attempting to standardize the requirements, etc,
              Are these open to anyone interested or by invitation only?

              Comment


              • #8
                Please make it a separate organization and website with no affiliations

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Hoffer View Post
                  Please make it a separate organization and website with no affiliations
                  +10 and no marketing or commercial BS.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Hoffer View Post
                    Please make it a separate organization and website with no affiliations
                    Who besides AB is stepping up to do this?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Stepping up to what?

                      Nothing happened except more AB advertising.

                      There are many people contributing into it which is a good thing. I think a $30 website could be done without an association to one company. It just looks bad the way it was set up.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        It's a combination of people

                        The Applied Ballistics Guys are spearheading this using ELR Central

                        There is no such thing as "Unbiased" as this is a financial issue just as much as any other issues. The point is bringing more people to table so we can bring in a group that is not affiliated with anyone making the attempts. I am going to the Ritter & Stark Shoot this weekend.

                        As an example, I am not shooting I am acting as a range officer / Proctor for the SHOT SHOW Shoot as noted, R&S shoot

                        AB is a part, Warner, McMillan, it's a lot of people, however, AB is running point but it is open to many.

                        You have the guys behind Ko2M, you have Oscar with his CA group, you have many different factions working together. AB just created ELR Central, but there are a lot of hands in the pot

                        Watch your thoughts; they become words.
                        Watch your words; they become actions.
                        Watch your actions; they become habits.
                        Watch your habits; they become character.
                        Watch your character; it becomes your destiny.
                        --Frank Outlaw

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          A separate website would at least create the illusion of an independent association

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            that is because they are mainly using Facebook,

                            The fact AB stepped up and created a website should not be looked at as if they are the only player.

                            The problem is people using FB
                            Watch your thoughts; they become words.
                            Watch your words; they become actions.
                            Watch your actions; they become habits.
                            Watch your habits; they become character.
                            Watch your character; it becomes your destiny.
                            --Frank Outlaw

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Lowlight View Post

                              The problem is people using FB
                              SO MUCH YES HERE. I left that wasteland and never looked back.
                              The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne
                              "Do not pray for an easy life, acquire the strength to endure a difficult one" -Bruce Lee

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Frank - Paul says the gun has been jumped. He's waiting on more reviewer comments.

                                Please delete until Paul says OK. Thanks.
                                Last edited by ELR researcher; 12-07-2017, 09:58 PM.
                                ELR Researcher
                                Endowment Member NRA and Life Member CRPA
                                www.elr-resources.com
                                Not a commercial business.
                                ELR...anything shorter is point blank!

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  There is already a Rev 10 with a few changes. You can delete Rev 7 above to avoid confusion -- thanks
                                  Last edited by Mark V; 12-07-2017, 11:00 PM.

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Paul has released a PDF - a few minutes (10) ago. I'm unable to add it here but here is a link - http://forum.accurateshooter.com/thr...#post-37100808
                                    ELR Researcher
                                    Endowment Member NRA and Life Member CRPA
                                    www.elr-resources.com
                                    Not a commercial business.
                                    ELR...anything shorter is point blank!

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      This is an exciting event!

                                      I can see why any cartridge can be used for the world record attempt, the logic of it and that's fine, but I do wish there were at least cartridge class divisions. I wouldn't even know how to define the classes but I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be competitive against, say a 375 Lethal mag, with my little 30-375R.

                                      It'd be like bringing a 223 to shoot against the 6mm's and 6.5's at a long range match starting at 500Y and ending at 1000Y. Well, maybe in this case it'd be best to opt out or resolve yourself to be a casual competitor knowing full well going in you'll finish lower unless you get lucky. Well, the easy answer is don't bring a 223, right??? in my case, "pun intended" a 30 cal, or do I have it wrong?

                                      I'm not trying to start a argument but what do you guys think about the pro's or con's either way, at least for the future?

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Hi,

                                        I think if you start putting "classes" onto ELR you are limiting its' growth. ELR has ALWAYS been about pushing the boundaries, not about allowing lesser capable cartridges to be "included" but in their own "class".

                                        "Classes" start to clutter the end goal/results real fast...just as my example list of changes that Official Guinness WRs can go through to get new record without breaking old record. Once you open the door to weapon/cartridge classes then you open it to classes based off support equipment, classes based off quantity of support personnel, etc etc.

                                        IF you are going to "class" anything in ELR genre, then I suggest classing the shooter..not the weapon, cartridge, etc.

                                        ELR in its' simplest form......An ANY/ANY format is what is going to drive the bus of progression. IF you show up to a PRS match with a lever action 30-30 you do not expect to be in your own class right??? You pretty much expect to be at bottom of standings. IF you show up to a 2 mile ELR match with 270 then you should not expect to be in your own class.

                                        Sincerely,
                                        THEIS

                                        Comment


                                        • #21
                                          Originally posted by THEIS View Post
                                          Hi,

                                          I think if you start putting "classes" onto ELR you are limiting its' growth. ELR has ALWAYS been about pushing the boundaries, not about allowing lesser capable cartridges to be "included" but in their own "class".

                                          "Classes" start to clutter the end goal/results real fast...just as my example list of changes that Official Guinness WRs can go through to get new record without breaking old record. Once you open the door to weapon/cartridge classes then you open it to classes based off support equipment, classes based off quantity of support personnel, etc etc.

                                          IF you are going to "class" anything in ELR genre, then I suggest classing the shooter..not the weapon, cartridge, etc.

                                          ELR in its' simplest form......An ANY/ANY format is what is going to drive the bus of progression. IF you show up to a PRS match with a lever action 30-30 you do not expect to be in your own class right??? You pretty much expect to be at bottom of standings. IF you show up to a 2 mile ELR match with 270 then you should not expect to be in your own class.

                                          Sincerely,
                                          THEIS
                                          +10. I don't see what's the rationale as posted by AB (rev10). Would like to see some sort of explanations because some are simply not making any sense, at least to me.

                                          Comment


                                          • #22
                                            Looking into my crystal ball .....
                                            No matter what the rules might be the records most likely will stagnate after the first 2 years. Probably maxxing out around 3k for a long time thus slowing participation. You will then see very small increments in distance with newsworthy achievements getting smaller and farther in between. Then only meaningful advances will be in electronics at prices too high for private citizens. After 5-7 years we will remember the good times that were.

                                            (Originally posted for some of the limiting rules. After some thought I don't know how you could change the rules to keep ELR going for an extended time besides 1 moa targets ... at least the record part of it)
                                            Last edited by Hoffer; 12-08-2017, 06:21 PM.

                                            Comment


                                            • #23
                                              Guys

                                              Relax, I spoke to Paul, I am traveling, I get it shit is changing you don't need to run around with your hair on fire.

                                              It's not like this is happening next week.

                                              Las Vegas, NV – Sunday, 21 Jan 2018

                                              Front Sight Range, 1 Front Sight Road, Pahrump, NV 89061 Registration: 0600-0700 Range Brief: 0700
                                              Morning Relays: 0800-1000 Afternoon Relays: 1400-1600 Awards Dinner: 1800 – 2000 at Pahrump Valley Winery $50.00

                                              INAUGURAL WORLD RECORD EVENT

                                              Entry Fee:
                                              Registration, contact: Kathy.Barnhart@appliedballisticsllc.com (231) 468-1231

                                              RULES (Rev 10)

                                              The following rules have been established to standardize the requirements for a recognized ELR Central World Record attempt, while managing 50 shooters in an efficient manner. Multiple shooters will be on the line simultaneously, waiting their turn to shoot. The order of shooters will be selected randomly prior to the beginning of the relay.
                                              1. The World Record will be 3 out of 3 direct impacts on a 36-inch square plate with no practice shots or sighters.
                                              2. One rifle per shooter for both attempts. Two shooters cannot share one rifle.

                                              3.
                                              1. No limit on caliber, cartridge or bullet. No restriction on optics or aiming devices.
                                              2. Rifle weight limit of 50 pounds including anything attached to the rifle (optics, bipod,

                                                sling, etc.) No heavy Rail Guns or bolted down shooting systems.
                                              3. Shooters can shoot alone or may have one spotter, but the shooter and spotter must

                                                stay as a team. Spotters can work with only one shooter for the day.
                                              4. Shooters are permitted to shoot and spot only once in a 4 hour period. A shooter from

                                                the first relay can spot for his spotter in the second relay so that both can shoot.

                                                Shooter and spotter cannot shoot in the same relay.
                                              5. There must be a minimum of 4 hours before shooters can attempt another World

                                                Record. For example, once in the morning, once in the afternoon.
                                              6. No more than two (2) World Record attempts in one day.
                                              7. The target will be 36 inches square. If there are hits on the target and there is a way to

                                                mark them on the monitor, it will be at the discretion of the Match Director to decide when the target should be re-painted.

                                              Shooters will not shoot their rifles within 4 hours of this ELR World Record attempt;


                                              except for a 100-yard confirm zero.
                                              1. Targets will be located at distances from 1500-2500+ yards. Distance to the target will be announced on the day of the match and measured from the center of the firing line. The range will be verified +/- 5 yards with at least two (2) laser range finders.
                                              2. Shooters are still responsible for ranging their own targets from their shooting position on the line. ELR Central will provide Laser Range Finders if you don’t have them.
                                              3. The Match Director will be impartial and will not coach or assist any shooters.
                                              4. The ROs will establish the shooting order and give range commands. The shooting order

                                                will be established by random draw.
                                              5. Shooting will be done from the any position, to include prone, sitting, kneeling or

                                                standing with a bipod or tripod. Shooters may have one rear bag to support the toe of

                                                the stock.
                                              6. Accommodations will be made for individuals with physical restrictions at the Match

                                                Director’s discretion.
                                              7. Shooters will be divided into relays. On command, all shooters and spotters in the relay

                                                will line up on the firing line behind their rifles and spotting scopes.
                                              8. There will be a time limit of 3 minutes per shooter once the individual command to fire

                                                is given.
                                              9. Once the shooter has been given the command to fire, no other person can assist or

                                                communicate with the shooter except the spotter.
                                              10. The next shooter on the line should be prepared to shoot immediately following the

                                                previous shooter and when commanded by the RO.
                                              11. “Impact” will be clearly announced by the Match Director or his designate for everyone

                                                to hear.
                                              12. Impacts on target must be a direct hit. Skip shots or ricochets will not be scored.
                                              13. Every attempt will be made to video all shooters for World Records. World Records

                                                must be witnessed and verified by 5 witnesses including the Match Director.
                                              14. Any existing record must be broken by at least 10 yards.
                                              15. If a shooter has a spotter, they will both be named as the “World Record Team.”
                                              16. If a shooter shoots without a spotter, he or she will be named as the “World Record

                                                Individual.”
                                              17. If more than one shooter scores 3 for 3 at a given distance, those shooters will hold the

                                                World Record until another shooter goes 3 for 3 at a longer distance.
                                              18. After a World Record setting performance, the exact range will be re-measured from

                                                the shooter’s shooting position to the target. The shooter’s rifle may also be weighed at

                                                this time to ensure that it is under the 50 pound limit.
                                              19. All shooters and spectators will be required to sign a liability release waiver.
                                              20. It is encouraged to pre-register and fill out a waiver.


                                              31. Additional administrative and range safety rules will be given at the pre-match range brief. Rifles will be cased or actions open with an empty chamber indicator flag.

                                              32. Match Director and ROs reserve the right to remove any shooter from the line and from the event for unsafe rifle handling.

                                              ELR Central Personal Best Record Attempt
                                              1. If a shooter misses the first shot, he or she will be given two (2) more attempts to make an impact, but still within the 3 minute time limit. This will not be for record or certificate.
                                              2. Certificates will be awarded for making 3 for 3 impacts at the shooter’s longest distance. For example, 1500, 1600, 2000, etc.

                                              Please contact the event organizer with any questions: Paul Phillips (734) 347-8024

                                              Watch your thoughts; they become words.
                                              Watch your words; they become actions.
                                              Watch your actions; they become habits.
                                              Watch your habits; they become character.
                                              Watch your character; it becomes your destiny.
                                              --Frank Outlaw

                                              Comment


                                              • #24
                                                Originally posted by Mark V
                                                There has been discussion about classes based on caliber or case volume. There will be meetings during Shot Show to discuss the future and direction for ELR. To grow the sport it is important to be inclusive and not exclusive.
                                                When is the meeting and who can attend. I would like to attend just to listen and see where things are going.

                                                Comment


                                                • #25
                                                  They are working on setting up a venue for an ELR meeting inside Shot Show for those already in the show - and another outside the show for those without badges. Not sure who has the lead on that

                                                  Comment

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