What round for training cartridge?

Feb 14, 2017
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#51
I can't get a 75 ELD-M within 20 thou of the lands at mag length in a Wylde chamber. Not sure how you would be able to do that with 30 thou more FB on top of that. My COAL with a 75 ELDM 10 thou off the lands in a new Wylde chamber is 2.65" IIRC

That's too long for sure.

I want a 75 eld around 2.45" ish.
 

spife7980

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Feb 10, 2017
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#52
I can't get a 75 ELD-M within 20 thou of the lands at mag length in a Wylde chamber. Not sure how you would be able to do that with 30 thou more FB on top of that. My COAL with a 75 ELDM 10 thou off the lands in a new Wylde chamber is 2.65" IIRC
What mags are you using? I trimmed the front lip off my accurate mag and it looks like I would have enough room. Ill try to get calipers on them this evening to compare oals with yours.
 

spife7980

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#53
75 eld in a pva wylde chamber
Touching found via wheeler method is
1.892 ogive = 2.432 oal according to my notes
I wonder why yours is so much longer? I will admit that I had a tough time finding it and was initially way out at and beyond your measurement but worked my way back to where I am now and it had the traditional free bolt drop finally.
Maybe I need to run it again or check with a cleaning rod or borrow someone’s hornady gauge but I felt pretty confident in my result at the time.

This is one I already had loaded that’s seated .010 off the lands
4ED92253-4073-4820-98B9-ADF715B03A9A.jpeg


The accurate mag by default is 2.3” but shave that little front lip off and you can get it to 2.5 and the plastic aics pos can take 2.55. So with where I’m at now I have plenty but you’re already way beyond.
 
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Sheldon N

Blind Squirrel Finds a Nut
Sep 24, 2014
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#54
I wonder why yours is so much longer? I will admit that I had a tough time finding it and was initially way out at and beyond your measurement but worked my way back to where I am now and it had the traditional free bolt drop finally.
If the difference between a hard jam and "touch" is more than 15-20 thou I suspect that you've got something else going on in your measurements (snug freebore, non-concentric round touching just one side, etc).
 

spife7980

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#55
If the difference between a hard jam and "touch" is more than 15-20 thou I suspect that you've got something else going on in your measurements (snug freebore, non-concentric round touching just one side, etc).
I suspected that but lots of them were giving the same result.
You run 75s, right? What’s your length?
 

reubenski

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Jun 8, 2008
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#56
I use accurate mag with the front trimmed out. The 75 ELDm do fit in those. I was referring to AR mag length as the sort of universal standard for 223 mag length definition which is 2.26" iirc. But you bring up a good point that the OP is talking about bolt guns he may very well be able to run a 2.8" oal for the match chamber in those mags
 

spife7980

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#58
I've got a 223 Wylde chambered virgin barrel blank in the safe. I'll have to dig it out and measure later this evening.
Don’t go out of your way for it. Im sure some others have the measurements already written down.

@bohem would you share the reamer print or freebore you use in your wylde or at least confirm or deny the .062? I could be operating on a false assumption altogether that it’s the same as all the others in that area.
 

TexasTightwad

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May 30, 2018
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#60
I ended up adding to my NSS order a 223 barrel that matched the 6.5, and it is a 223 Remington Match chamber with a 1:7 twist. I also added the .380 bolt head and two magazines to my Nucleus order, which should ship soon (mine is #2900, and they invoiced to #2898 today). I don't know the magazine length on those, but that's what I'll be using (AICS pattern).
 
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Oct 17, 2017
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Dallas
#67
A few things:

Your 223 might reach out, or it might not. I wasn't able to get 75 grain pills past about 2700 fps accurately in my Tikka Varmint 223, and they went unstable at about 650 yards, so I couldn't even get it to 700, much less 1,000. It can certainly be done, but there's no guarantee and you may end up single loading for super long rounds.

Also, I'll say that it makes a difference to practice with the round you shoot. You'll learn where your CB shot goes, what direction the barrel goes when it starts walking (and after how many rounds), exactly how much wind you need to hold for, how much velocity changes during certain conditions, etc. Having that info on the round you're shooting during comp is invaluable. I personally wouldn't go the trainer route unless you're just shooting a stupid amount of rounds.
 

Sheldon N

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Sep 24, 2014
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#69
Let us know how that barrel shoots when you get around to it. Also want to know ease of cleaning, how much copper it grabs, speed compared to your last, etc. Button rifled?
Will do, this one is a Krieger cut rifled blank.

Last barrel was a button rifled Shilen blank, 23.2 of XBR in LC brass with a 75bthp gave me 2800 fps. It hammered, everything inside of 800 yards 1 MOA steel plates no problem. I shot it out at 1k too and it was fine, not much energy out there though.
 
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Oct 17, 2017
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#72
I haven't had any issues getting 2900 out of 75gr bullets in two barrels. Same load of 23.3gr 8208. 24 and a 26" barrel. I know a few guys locally that are shooting 80gr'rs at 2900 plus
I could push it faster...alot faster - just lost accuracy. Never could find a node any faster.

Did not try 8208. I was more interested in making a point though. And if you're off buying different powders to try to find a fast load on your training rifle, then you're quickly eating away at the cost 'savings'.
 
Feb 14, 2017
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#73
I could push it faster...alot faster - just lost accuracy. Never could find a node any faster.

Did not try 8208. I was more interested in making a point though. And if you're off buying different powders to try to find a fast load on your training rifle, then you're quickly eating away at the cost 'savings'.
Yeah, there's no chance I'm leaving 200 fps on the table with a .223 over cost savings on powder especially.

If your 75's are going unstable past 650, you need more twist.
 

Sheldon N

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Sep 24, 2014
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#74
Yeah, there's no chance I'm leaving 200 fps on the table with a .223 over cost savings on powder especially.
Last thousand rounds or so I've been running mine at 2650 fps lol. Was just banging steel at 200 yards for positional practice so I figured it would be easier on the steel (and less likely to spark, fire danger, etc). I've run it out to 600 yards and it still does fine.
 
Oct 17, 2017
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#78
Yeah, there's no chance I'm leaving 200 fps on the table with a .223 over cost savings on powder especially.

If your 75's are going unstable past 650, you need more twist.
It was a 1:8 twist Tikka Varmint. Not a barrel problem. It was a speed problem. My barrel didn't have a good fast node. It would shoot a hair over 1" at 2850 fps, but shot under 1/2" at the slower node, so I couldn't donate that much accuracy.

My only point was that you're not guaranteed to find a fast node on a 223 that will take you past about 600/700 yards. More than likely? Sure. But buying a practice gun that can only provide adequate practice if you really push the limits of the cartridge does have some inherent risk. That's all I'm saying.

That and the fact that practicing with your comp rifle with your comp caliber is just better overall practice than a completely different caliber. But if you can push a 223 with accuracy, it's not a bad choice. It's just not one I would personally advise if your comps are going to be at 1000 yards with a 6 or 6.5.
 
Feb 14, 2017
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#79
I'm curious as to why your saying a 2,700 fps launch won't take you past 600/700 yards?

160 ft ASL and it'd get me to 875 super sonic.

2,900 fps is 975 yards fwiw.
 

reubenski

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#80
I guess it depends what your sport is. For PRS, high volume practice is usually oriented to wobble zone. Don't need speed and distance for that. Second to that, wind. Also don't need speed or distance for that.
 
Feb 14, 2017
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#81
No, but you need stability, which is what I was questioning.

Speed doesn't effect stability near as much as twist, and I was kind of getting around to a conversation about that, but I'm getting way off topic.

My apologies.
 
Oct 17, 2017
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#82
I'm curious as to why your saying a 2,700 fps launch won't take you past 600/700 yards?

160 ft ASL and it'd get me to 875 super sonic.

2,900 fps is 975 yards fwiw.
I agree it should have done better - that's my entire point. Mine went unstable before 700. Shot a 3" group at 600, and couldn't hit the 2 MOA (14" plate) at 700. So it went unstable during transonic. I'm at 400' ASL.
 
Oct 17, 2017
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#83
I guess it depends what your sport is. For PRS, high volume practice is usually oriented to wobble zone. Don't need speed and distance for that. Second to that, wind. Also don't need speed or distance for that.
That's true. I'm assuming he wants to learn to reach out LR. If you want to practice positional stuff at medium ranges, 223 is a good fit.
 

spife7980

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#85
So I remeasured it yesterday while watching football. Sized brass all checked before to make sure it chambers freely.

My measurement for a free drop is now .008" longer than it was on the brand new barrel, 1.892 ogive (2.432 oal) before is now coming out at 1.900 (2.440) so my measurement in post 53 would have actually been for .018 off, not .010 like I claimed off the original measurement. Must just be the sharp lands rounding off during this first 250 rounds.
Based on my seating depth test Saturday I will be shooting them at 1.873"ogive (2.413 oal) =.027" jump.

If the difference between a hard jam and "touch" is more than 15-20 thou I suspect that you've got something else going on in your measurements (snug freebore, non-concentric round touching just one side, etc).
I just measured my new Keystone 223 Wylde barrel with my lot of 75 ELD-M. They are 2.503" OAL to the lands (hard jam).
My "hard" jam is ~2.467", shorter than that it is possible to force the bolt closed, however, you can still clearly see the bullet is contacting/engraving all the way around until you get to my measurement of 2.440. So it doesnt appear to be due to concentricity.

Whats interesting though is that its not the lands imprints that I am accustomed to seeing (like my 53 nosler varm showed in this barrel when tested in the same exact manner); its a solid contact all the way around like its hitting on the neck-throat step-up (doubtful) or on the leade angle before the lands start to ramp up away from the grooves.

So maybe a snug freebore is the culprit. Maybe its just the leade angle and the secant bullet just being too close of a match and touching almost tangentially for that little .027" section. I wish I would have thought to mic each bullet while I was at it to compare diameters, Ill try to remember to tonight.

In any case there should be plenty of space to load in mags even if the freebore was .030" longer. ;)

Edit: Nosler 53 is .2244” and the hornady eld is .2247”, I’m curious if .0003” can really be the big difference in play.

Edit edit: I just measured some 55gr speer sp and they are .2441” so it looks like maybe it could be, I figured the 53 and 75 were and both ends of the spectrum but now it looks like they were the middle and the high end of the spectrum. So perhaps they are just that hair too wide for a clean imprint. I’m not gonna worry about it though. They shoot fair enough.
 
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Dthomas3523

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Jan 31, 2018
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#87
I’m not sure if it would qualify as a “trainer,” but I use my .223 setup to save a couple extra barrels a year with my 6creed. I think it also helps with my wind calls, so I guess there’s the trainer part.

Any matches that are around 800 max or only one stage over 800, I shoot .223.

A 100 round match eats up about 7% ish barrel life of a 6 creed (1500 assumed life), and .223 eats 2% barrel life (with assumed 5000.

Mileage may vary, but even if the ammo costs were the same, it’s still worth it to me to shoot 223 as much as possible.

I have them set up almost exactly in weight.

79B800BB-2243-4D32-B25B-8717072C3023.jpeg
 
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