What docs are legally required to be in your possession when shooting with suppressor at range?

pell1203

Full Member
Dec 27, 2007
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Bellevue, WA
#1
I just got my first tax stamp and was wondering what paperwork needs to be with you and suppressor when shooting it in WA state? Item was purchased using a Silencer Shop Single Shot Trust and for now I am the only individual on the trust document.

I've been told all that is required is a copy of the first page of the Form 4 showing the tax stamp. However, I've also been told I need a copy of all four pages of the Form 4 in addition to a copy of my trust document. Which one is it?

Also if I add any other trustees, will I also have to have all that paperwork with me as well?

Thanks.
 
Feb 13, 2017
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#3
I use the iPhone approach too.

In theory you shouldn't have to have a copy of an approved BATFE stamp on your person, it is a Tax Stamp, not a license; no more than having a roadside State Trooper asking you for drivers license, insurance and your IRS 10-40 form; you are not required to have the 10-40 in the vehicle or upon your person.

The law says "make available upon request", so if an ATF agent (not just any law enforcement agent) requests to see your NFA paperwork you could "make it available" by faxing or emailing it to his regional office or following you home to see the paperwork.

Screen Shot 2018-04-02 at 6.10.37 AM.png

It's where theory meets hassle, the iPhone method makes life easier.
 
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May 25, 2013
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#4
My actual trust and stamps are kept in a large Ziploc bag and never leave the safe. I have copies of the trust and stamps in each of my rifle cases behind the foam. I've yet to have anyone request to see them, but the copies are there if necessary. I wouldn't feel comfortable taking the originals.
 

lash

Swamp Rat
Sep 28, 2012
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Central Florida
#5
I also have the 1st page and my trust on my phone as PDF. In addition, I have 1/4 size copies of the paperwork in my soft case in case I need.

As an interesting aside related to the OPs question, our gun club seems to think that you have to have full sized hard copies on you to satisfy the Chief RSO. I took an RSO Class December 31st and they were very clear about that despite some of us pointing out that it is really none of their business nor responsibility to ask to see that paperwork.

Apparently they feel that this somehow clears them of any liability issues if the subject were ever to come up, though I personally doubt that.

Funny thing though. As many of our group that shoot and use rifles with suppressor a on them, not to mention the good number that shoot SBRs, I've not heard of once when anyone was asked to show their paperwork. That's probably good for me since I have no intention of showing them any full sized or original paperwork.
 

pell1203

Full Member
Dec 27, 2007
1,015
150
63
Bellevue, WA
#6
Thanks guys! Yes, originals always stay in safe. Paper copies of trust and first page of Form 4 is easy to make and throw behind foam.

I will also send myself copies of pdf files of trust and Form 4 to keep as backup on phone.

Thanks. Much appreciated.
 
Apr 21, 2007
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#7
You have no responsibility what so ever to produce your form 1 or form 4 for anyone at a range. If it just so happens to be an ATF agent, then you can produce a copy of the form. Your form is a tax document approved by the ATF. You, the IRS, and the ATF are the only parties that are legally able to request it for confirmation.

I mean a range can request it, but you are not obligated to produce it. They can also not allow you on their property.

If your local range is requesting to see them, find a different range.
 
Feb 13, 2017
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#8
You have no responsibility what so ever to produce your form 1 or form 4 for anyone at a range. If it just so happens to be an ATF agent, then you can produce a copy of the form. Your form is a tax document approved by the ATF. You, the IRS, and the ATF are the only parties that are legally able to request it for confirmation.

I mean a range can request it, but you are not obligated to produce it. They can also not allow you on their property.

If your local range is requesting to see them, find a different range.
All told, pretty good information from all. Agree, never take the original(s) out of the safe, unless making copies. I have scanned all my docs, printed/bound them, carry copies in all my bags, e-mailed them to myself and have pdf’s on my phone.

If you are going to Kenmore, my discussions with the RO’s is they expect you to have all the proper documentation, beyond that, it’s none of their business and any question of legality is between you and ant LEO that may inquire. It was kind of eerie shooting suppressed the first few times because no one even seemed to notice/care. Nowadays, it’s just run of the mill.
 

lash

Swamp Rat
Sep 28, 2012
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Central Florida
#9
You have no responsibility what so ever to produce your form 1 or form 4 for anyone at a range. If it just so happens to be an ATF agent, then you can produce a copy of the form. Your form is a tax document approved by the ATF. You, the IRS, and the ATF are the only parties that are legally able to request it for confirmation.

I mean a range can request it, but you are not obligated to produce it. They can also not allow you on their property.

If your local range is requesting to see them, find a different range.
I agree with most everything you said. The last statement though is idealistic and not realistic in many cases. The range I shoot at is literally the only place I can get to regularly that allows the long range shooting that I do. Maybe you have plenty of options, but I'd bet that most of us are limited in our options.

On the other hand, despite their stated policy, they have never asked anyone that I know of.
 
Apr 21, 2007
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Zachary, Louisiana
#10
I agree with most everything you said. The last statement though is idealistic and not realistic in many cases. The range I shoot at is literally the only place I can get to regularly that allows the long range shooting that I do. Maybe you have plenty of options, but I'd bet that most of us are limited in our options.

On the other hand, despite their stated policy, they have never asked anyone that I know of.
That's why I said they can refuse service however the statement still stands. You don't have to provide anything.

Also I bet your options are better than mine. I have a 100 yard range. Occasionally I get to shoot on 600 yard property.
 

lash

Swamp Rat
Sep 28, 2012
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Central Florida
#11
I agree and said as much in my first post above. I also suspect that the wording of their published policy is there by suggestion of legal advice in order to satisfy insurance requirements and keep policy costs down. Anybody that doesn't realize that ranges have to be run well, as a business, in order to stay in business is naive at best.

And yes, my options are better than yours, but I prefer to keep them that way. Choices are not always simply black or white. There is usually some gray area.
 
Apr 21, 2007
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Zachary, Louisiana
#12
I agree and said as much in my first post above. I also suspect that the wording of their published policy is there by suggestion of legal advice in order to satisfy insurance requirements and keep policy costs down. Anybody that doesn't realize that ranges have to be run well, as a business, in order to stay in business is naive at best.

And yes, my options are better than yours, but I prefer to keep them that way. Choices are not always simply black or white. There is usually some gray area.
Again there is no legitimate reason for any range or its employees to ask you for a tax document. NONE. If someone has a suppressor or any other Class 3 item illegally that is between them and the BATFE. There is no legal ramifications that could be held against the range whatsoever, BUT if it makes you feel better and helps you justify it go ahead and provide it which is all I was saying. No need to keep going on with this.
 

lash

Swamp Rat
Sep 28, 2012
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#17
My understanding and I am a LEO is that the only person you should ever legally have to show a tax stamp (or copy of) for a form 1 or form 4 is an ATF Agent.
I 100% agree. I have never been asked to show mine either, but since the rule is that you need to keep a copy with you, I do so.
 
Jul 7, 2005
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#18
I make several copies of the first page of the Form 4 with the stamp, put them in the rifle cases I carry the suppressed rifles in, then take the original & put it in my safety deposit box at the bank. Never considered making copies of the trust, and still don't see the need. I shoot suppressed rifles (CF & RF) at matches on ranges away from home, but most of the shooting I do is on my own range, which I can stretch out to just over 1100 yds.
 
Feb 13, 2017
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#21
I thought we covered this already. Re-read theory v. hassle above, twice. Any curious soul can ask you. So when the GW requests to see your paperwork ask him nicely (like Jack Nicholson requests as Colonel Jessup in A Few Good Men) to make his ATF credentials "available" too.


Screen Shot 2018-04-08 at 7.25.20 PM.png
 

Snuby642

Sergeant of the Hide
Feb 11, 2017
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#22
So when I go out in Texas I cary a copy of trust and atf form, 1, 4, etc.
If I realy want to shoot at that range I comply with thier bullshit request and later bitch at thier managment after shooting.
If local leo asks depends on my mood and thier demeanor.
They get any ware from ok, to keep walking and tell them to get a warrant , call it in.
Done both its not thier jurisdiction and when they call it in the dumd shits find that out.
Have let some see the forms and took them back I dont let go, they should go back to school
I get tired of thier lack of expertise and blatently thier god damn additude in general.

Roided up shits think they run the place, reality is they run what we let them! Nothing more!
They need to understand they work in the town, not run the sob!
 
Jan 31, 2009
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Iceshack Village, Buttfuck Nowhere
#23
I asked for and got certified copies of my form 4 from the ATF.

Holy cow.... I thought I would get a color copy.

They sent me a copies of the form that not even I believe is legitimately from the ATF.

The ink from the photocopier bled through (circled in green) on both sides.

What a joke.

I've been asked during a stop by GFP. He was not too thrilled I had them. He asked what I needed it for. I simply replied, for all my firearms I shoot suppressed.

youdoodle-2018-04-09T02-03-37Z.jpg
 
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Snuby642

Sergeant of the Hide
Feb 11, 2017
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#24
I made my own copies, if anyone doesn't like them they can happily contact the atf.
But like you said the the (GFP) not being happy about you having them.
First of all nobody gives a shit about thier likes, they don't warrent any consideration at all from us.
They do not have legal jurisdiction over those items at all.
They do not have power to do shit about those items.
Thier additude needs to be put in check! I might add (in general )!

Had a local leo off duty at a range question me about my sbr with a can,
Told him no when asked to see my forms and he produced his badge.
Told him to call atf if he didn't like it, range master laughed his ass off.
The guy stormed off on his cell phone to come back and coolect his gun later red faced and mad as hell.
I just kept shooting pretending to ignore him, the range master laghed harder.
I was given free pases to shoot, told that was the most fun the range master had in ages.

Leo's need to learn the laws and thier place.
 
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Jan 31, 2009
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Iceshack Village, Buttfuck Nowhere
#25
Yeah, my original got wrecked. So I figured a "certified copy" from the ATF would actually look better than the shit I did back in 1994 as a high school teachers assistant printing copies.

The fact that this was mailed to me blows my mind. Like yeah, that'll pass muster.
 
Aug 7, 2014
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#26
I don't get ranges asking for paperwork, but their property, their rules, not always convenient to find another place to shoot.
We all profess to be law abiding gun owners, but want to fight LE on proving that we are. I've always been under the assumption that other than the ATF, none really have the right to ask, but if they do, and you don't comply, they can detain you or your property until the AFT can verify, another waste of time.
Sometimes it's just as easy to show when asked.
 
Nov 19, 2009
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#27
I took my originals down to a local printing shop and had them copy them at 25% size, front and back. Then had them laminate them. With their high quality copiers everything can be read, if your eyes are good or you have a magnifying glass. They are about 2.5" x 3", keep 'em in the safe with the cans, and put it in my wallet when I go shooting. Never been asked. Originals stay in the safe.

Thank you,
MrSmith
 
Apr 21, 2007
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Zachary, Louisiana
#28
I don't get ranges asking for paperwork, but their property, their rules, not always convenient to find another place to shoot.
We all profess to be law abiding gun owners, but want to fight LE on proving that we are. I've always been under the assumption that other than the ATF, none really have the right to ask, but if they do, and you don't comply, they can detain you or your property until the AFT can verify, another waste of time.
Sometimes it's just as easy to show when asked.
I get what you are saying but like Snuby said, they should know the laws and the facts. In reality they should not even be asking about said items. It's not their place. If they knew on the front end that civilians did not even have to produce proof to them legally as stated by ATF themselves, then they wouldn't be wasting anyone else's time and there would be no hold ups.

I don't go around to everyone at home depot asking to see their proof of citizenship because I know it's not my place. It's just a waste of everyone's time which is what is frustrating.

The presenting of the paperwork is not even what bothers me the most. It's the follow up question of "Why do you need that?" Because I can. Why do you need a cheeseburger for lunch everyday? It's the same BS reason.
 
Aug 7, 2014
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Gillette, WY
#29
I get what you are saying but like Snuby said, they should know the laws and the facts. In reality they should not even be asking about said items. It's not their place. If they knew on the front end that civilians did not even have to produce proof to them legally as stated by ATF themselves, then they wouldn't be wasting anyone else's time and there would be no hold ups.

I don't go around to everyone at home depot asking to see their proof of citizenship because I know it's not my place. It's just a waste of everyone's time which is what is frustrating.

The presenting of the paperwork is not even what bothers me the most. It's the follow up question of "Why do you need that?" Because I can. Why do you need a cheeseburger for lunch everyday? It's the same BS reason.
I've yet to be asked, you'd think the why part of it would be self explanatory, lol
 
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Snuby642

Sergeant of the Hide
Feb 11, 2017
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#33
So I get it been there done that with multiple FFL items, cans, sbrs, sbs, aows, etc..
All stamped and background checked, processed with my trust lawyer.
So some guy at a range wants to see paper before I use his range, fine or I can go elsewhere, ok!


Now comes some local leo, off duty not in uniform, jelous, dissalusioned, roided up,
maybe just thinking that nobody but him should be armed as well or at all!
All I can think of saying is Fuck You, none of your business!
Go get a fed.

Does it look like for one God Damn instant I'm breaking any law in broad daylight at a public range!
Answer is no he just decided to be an ass because he figures to get away with it!
Since I dont have to show up at work I think it is my duty to tell them go get atf, and get lost.

So far all have chicken shitted out, much to the amusement of the crowd at the range.
I provide that as a public service, and for the subsequent beers.
In Texas I have to give them my license and chl nothing else.

(You can all go to hell, I will go to Texas)

They can all get that equipment on a department letterhead voiding the tax stamp and getting big discounts, kiss my ass!
If for one moment they think thier commission makes them better than me they can Go Fuck Thierself! !
 
Feb 15, 2017
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#34
(You can all go to hell, I will go to Texas)

If for one moment they think thier commission makes them better than me they can Go Fuck Thierself! !
It’s not my commission that makes me better than you, it’s your bad attitude and lack of respect for other people that make me better than you, not to mention your atrocious spelling and grammar. How did you get all that past spellcheck anyway? However, I feel privileged to have basked in the glory of such internet badassery. Thank you, sir, for being you.
 

Snuby642

Sergeant of the Hide
Feb 11, 2017
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#35
My grammar will probably improve as soon as I get eye surgery, having problems with small type at the moment.
I do not expect your eleatist attitude to improve, that is exactly the point.

Like I said, go get a fed, the nfa stuff is above your pay grade get over it.
 

Snuby642

Sergeant of the Hide
Feb 11, 2017
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#37
It's all good I have thick skin.
Would not make fun of people if I couldn't take the heat.

Back to op, I carry a full copy of my trust and stamps at all times. In vinale sleeves, its about 4 inches thick.
A copy of the item in use is in the guncase, etc.

Got to go, I feel like walking around the naiberhoodand check everyone's marriage license. Lol
 
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Feb 17, 2017
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#38
I have been checking into this also and you really need to check state laws. Texas law says any law enforcement officer can ask for the paperwork and you are required BY LAW to produce at a min a copy of it.So i would verify before you say no to anyone and make sure.
 
Apr 21, 2007
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#39
I have been checking into this also and you really need to check state laws. Texas law says any law enforcement officer can ask for the paperwork and you are required BY LAW to produce at a min a copy of it.So i would verify before you say no to anyone and make sure.
That's because in Texas Class 3 items are prohibited by the state, but the NFA documents keep them from arresting you. Agree you should check with your state laws.
 

Snuby642

Sergeant of the Hide
Feb 11, 2017
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#40
In 2016 the Texas laws changed considerably, defense to proscution is part of that.
Hell you can now carry a machete to wally world openly.
Concealed carry at the bank, liquor store, open carry most other places every day!
Open carried with half my family at a wedding this weekend.
Some guy said( we ) carry concield mostly, I told him I decided to tuck in my shirt for a change.

Possibly you reread Texas statutes from an updated source.

This is our second governor in a row that does not suck.
You fine people in Louisiana should be so lucky.
During the last huricane in New Orleans police took guns from law abiding citizens trying to protect thier property.
The Texas governer made a new law forbidding that type of shit from happening!

Dont get me wrong I love Louisiana dearly all the way south of the ICW but your governor sucks ass.
 
Apr 21, 2007
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Zachary, Louisiana
#41
In 2016 the Texas laws changed considerably, defense to proscution is part of that.
Hell you can now carry a machete to wally world openly.
Concealed carry at the bank, liquor store, open carry most other places every day!
Open carried with half my family at a wedding this weekend.
Some guy said( we ) carry concield mostly, I told him I decided to tuck in my shirt for a change.

Possibly you reread Texas statutes from an updated source.

This is our second governor in a row that does not suck.
You fine people in Louisiana should be so lucky.
During the last huricane in New Orleans police took guns from law abiding citizens trying to protect thier property.
The Texas governer made a new law forbidding that type of shit from happening!

Dont get me wrong I love Louisiana dearly all the way south of the ICW but your governor sucks ass.
Yeah he sucks ass. Too many dems in our major cities getting handouts and Jindal F'd republicans over so pubs aren't showing out for the voting.
 
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Feb 14, 2017
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Arlington TX
#42
You don’t have to legally carry your forms is the short answer, I’ve only been asked once and it was a BS requirement at a range that I didn’t go back to. I’ve been pulled over with all my shit laying around my back seat SBR’s, suppressors etc... the only times I’ve had any body hassle me is one range that required it and black HPD cops that don’t know fuck all. Sheriffs, DPS and everybody els has never givin me any grief
 
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