Welding Titanium

Feb 14, 2017
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#4
Ever thought of selling a uncoated can? So we could see the pretty welds? Doesn't color mean contamination and when welding titanium you have to weld in a purged atmosphere.
 
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Feb 13, 2014
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#5
Yes, color = oxidation of contaminants or alloys, which means you're not getting full strength. We weld Titanium with Lasers or Electron Beams almost exclusively here where I work, and when you see a weld with any color, you know someone didn't wait long enough after closing the tank to start the weld.

That said, I've welded titanium motorcycle exhaust's in less than ideal conditions (big rubbermaid tote purges as well as possible with argon)... You're getting color no matter how careful you are in conditions like that... for the application though, who cares? It's non-structural, and with the heat of the exhaust on something like a header, it's going to blue from oxidation in minutes anyway... My buddy was pissed when I "ruined" his brand new Taylor Made Racing exhaust for his S1000RR... He mounted it, and after we stopped an hour later, he couldn't even find the weld with how blue the rest of the exhaust was...
 

Fig

Sergeant of the Hide
Mar 15, 2018
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#6
Yes, color = oxidation of contaminants or alloys, which means you're not getting full strength. We weld Titanium with Lasers or Electron Beams almost exclusively here where I work, and when you see a weld with any color, you know someone didn't wait long enough after closing the tank to start the weld.

That said, I've welded titanium motorcycle exhaust's in less than ideal conditions (big rubbermaid tote purges as well as possible with argon)... You're getting color no matter how careful you are in conditions like that... for the application though, who cares? It's non-structural, and with the heat of the exhaust on something like a header, it's going to blue from oxidation in minutes anyway... My buddy was pissed when I "ruined" his brand new Taylor Made Racing exhaust for his S1000RR... He mounted it, and after we stopped an hour later, he couldn't even find the weld with how blue the rest of the exhaust was...
So Ti does the same thing as blue "heat treated" chrome?
 
Feb 13, 2014
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#7
Yes. The bluing is again just oxidation, and/or the formation of salts, which can be triggered by heat (heat accelerates all oxidation, but some metals will not oxidize below a temperature threshold without a catalyst). Cobalt is usually responsible for the bluing, but copper salts can do the same thing. Titanium itself oxidizes colorless, and chromium oxidizes yellowish, but the alloys within the metal make the colors.
 

SND

Private
Jul 7, 2006
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#10
Color in commercially pure ti welds indicates contamination by PPM levels of oxygen, hydrogen and nitrogen. “Shiny as a new dime” welds are typically ductile. Those with color many, but not all, times have a loss of ductility. Gas source is the trick. Standard welding grade argon has enough contaminates and moisture to give straw or light blue no matter what. Lab grade argon and a dryer along with a few other tricks consistently reduce coloring outside a purge chamber.

As a welding engineer, I qualified welding procedures to US Navy and ASME rules. Ti was always challenging ....
 
Likes: Apnea
Mar 17, 2013
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#14
TBAC is one of 6-7 silencer companies, that I know of, that know how to properly weld titanium.

Thunderbeast, KG Made, CGS Group, Dead Air, Torrent Suppressors, and SIGs skinny weld bead models are all good to go. I'm sure there are a few more companies I'm forgetting that have those perfect silver welds. I know AACs Titan series were good to go.
 
Jan 14, 2012
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#15
TBACRAY, that's some very good looking work. I like to see professionals who take pride in doing the best job they can. It is becoming a rare thing nowadays and I am a sucker for anything made from steel, aluminum, titanium and inconel.

Great job.
 

Blowby

Sergeant
Jan 23, 2013
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#16
I just was there Wednesday, to drop off my spare for a cleaning and color change, and the process is amazing. Impressed with the thought and quality of the process from start to finish.
 
Jul 24, 2010
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#19
Just to add to your comments Ray. Side by side my Ultra 9 and AAC 300-tm, the ultra's welds are flawless, you can't even tell there's a single weld on the can. The AAC on the other hand, well there's two types of welders. What the color of the AAC welds are I have no clue, its never had an issue but sure isn't flawless like the ultra.
 

NukeMMC

Damn Bubblehead
Mar 3, 2009
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#20
There are some field welding procedures for Ti piping where you cannot install a purge box I learned and qualified on once upon a time. They involve large trail-gas nozzles for the TIG torch and weld bead lengths of <3/4". Nowadays you can get purge bags with clear windows made up for field welds that have a much better pass rate.
You ever smack some of the discolored blue Ti tube with a hammer and you'll understand why it's rejectable.
 
Oct 29, 2017
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#21
Just a little info folks interested in Ti cans should be aware of. I'm surprised at some of the stuff I've seen out there.

NASA disagrees. That know that rejection based on color is inaccurate, that you have to do a physical test.

Please post pics of one of your colorless cores after being shot. Amazing, those colors come right out. Should you reject those? If you are confident in your welds, remove the outer tube and save your customers 4 oz.?
 

NateVA

Basement Dweller
Feb 10, 2017
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#24
NASA disagrees. That know that rejection based on color is inaccurate, that you have to do a physical test.

Please post pics of one of your colorless cores after being shot. Amazing, those colors come right out. Should you reject those? If you are confident in your welds, remove the outer tube and save your customers 4 oz.?
I went and checked the NASA titanium welding guidelines. This seems to indicate that color is one of the metrics used to assess the quality of the welds. Can you link me or direct me to your source and maybe give a small explanation as to why color is so inaccurate in predicting weld strength?

4.12.2.1 Visual Inspection[GWR 132] Titanium weld deposit and heat-affected zone shall adhere to the color requirements of the accompanying detailed weld process specification identified in section 1.2.
 
Oct 29, 2017
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#25
I went and checked the NASA titanium welding guidelines. This seems to indicate that color is one of the metrics used to assess the quality of the welds. Can you link me or direct me to your source and maybe give a small explanation as to why color is so inaccurate in predicting weld strength?

4.12.2.1 Visual Inspection[GWR 132] Titanium weld deposit and heat-affected zone shall adhere to the color requirements of the accompanying detailed weld process specification identified in section 1.2.
We've built tubeless cans, it's not a problem.
Can't wait to see your new stuff.
 
Oct 29, 2017
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#26
I went and checked the NASA titanium welding guidelines. This seems to indicate that color is one of the metrics used to assess the quality of the welds. Can you link me or direct me to your source and maybe give a small explanation as to why color is so inaccurate in predicting weld strength?

4.12.2.1 Visual Inspection[GWR 132] Titanium weld deposit and heat-affected zone shall adhere to the color requirements of the accompanying detailed weld process specification identified in section 1.2.
It states color is not necessarily an indicator, and the absence is color is not necessarily an indicator. That you must physically test both. Shoot their core see how it looks.

I've one multiple US .mil contracts we Ti silencers. No one else has. We do not have weld failures.
 
Likes: glockguy56
May 12, 2017
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#27
Here's two examples where the taper design sucks ass until everyone in the world starts using them. At the timestamps below, the cans become loose causing issues. The vso gun channel later has a strike with a round at the end of the video. Q cans could use a revision, hopefully they take it as constructive criticism and build something great.
at 8:37
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wy0vTldzF5c
at 2:38
 

Haffiwt

New Hide Member
Apr 15, 2018
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#28
Here's two examples where the taper design sucks ass until everyone in the world starts using them. At the timestamps below, the cans become loose causing issues. The vso gun channel later has a strike with a round at the end of the video. Q cans could use a revision, hopefully they take it as constructive criticism and build something great.
at 8:37
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wy0vTldzF5c
at 2:38
The first video shows the supressor coming loose, which is not uncommon at all for direct thread supressors - now it's completely likely that the guy didn't tighten it enough for the taper to create enough friction, so until more examples of the same thing happen, it's completely irrelevant to the taper design.

The second video shows what could be an out of spec barrel threading, as I've never seen any other videos with that much "wobble" in the threads. He didn't say whether it wobbled on other guns of his, just that one. So again, until there's further investigation or additional customers complaining of the same thing - it's completely illogical to blame taper design for this incident.

Constructive criticism would be great, but what you've brought up is just unfounded attacks on their design without any data or facts to verify your claims.

Baffle strikes happen all the time with various manufacturers, many times due to user error - so until there's more examples and problems reported this looks like a bunch of typical internet fear mongering by people who couldn't afford to buy them or who regret the ones they already got.
 
Likes: FishinGuns
May 12, 2017
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#29
I just wanted to point out 2 examples where experienced youtubers had issues with their cans. If you have taper barrels, I'm sure Q's cans are great. But if your like most of the people in the world who use 90 degree shoulder barrels, tapered suppressors just don't engage as well as other DT cans.
 

SND

Private
Jul 7, 2006
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#30
It states color is not necessarily an indicator, and the absence is color is not necessarily an indicator. That you must physically test both. Shoot their core see how it looks.

I've one multiple US .mil contracts we Ti silencers. No one else has. We do not have weld failures.
Color is an indicator that the weld zone has been contaminated by oxygen, hydrogen or nitrogen either in the shielding gas or by exposure to atmosphere when the metal temp is around 800 f. Blue or worse coloration indicates embrittlement, that is, reduced ductility. It’s not for sure but it does occur with some regularity. I’ve seen as many blue and purple welds fail in a brittle manner, breaking and falling in two pieces. Others bent right around the mandrel like ductile, unwelded base material. Lots of awareness of this by The Welding Institute, Edison Welding Instutite and the American Welding Society. Best to shoot for no more than a straw color in the welds and HAZ.

Regards,

Scott
 

Haffiwt

New Hide Member
Apr 15, 2018
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#31
I just wanted to point out 2 examples where experienced youtubers had issues with their cans. If you have taper barrels, I'm sure Q's cans are great. But if your like most of the people in the world who use 90 degree shoulder barrels, tapered suppressors just don't engage as well as other DT cans.
Ah, sorry for the somewhat accusatory tone then. I think I was directing my bewilderment towards you at how much people were getting upset over what has amounted to a bunch of nothing so far beyond fear over the color of metal. Especially considering this is a group of guys that have a 24 year track record at making well respected products. If welds were an issue, that would have definitely popped up by now over the years.

As far as the taper goes - if it truly is the better option, which I think it is, then wouldn't it be the proper thing for companies to heavily shift towards the better design? Kinda similar to the shift from drum to disc brakes. There's going to be a cost involved, but in the end it's better for the customer. Also, most people in the world may use a 90 shoulder, but most people in the world don't have any interest in buying a suppressor - so i'm not sure that should be a huge factor for silencer companies to stay with it.
 

JT1

New Hide Member
Apr 18, 2018
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#32
First post. Best described as a gun enthusiast at best with previous LE experience. Certainly not an expert in the design, manufacture, or operation of suppressors. I am however now a welding engineer by trade, part of my time involved working for the Navy and overseeing the welding of nuclear ships and submarines.

What I can say is the welding of titanium is quite possibly given the most scrutiny and oversight of any material in the Navy. A vendor must submit a titanium specific control plan, training plan, and facility requirements before even being allowed to qualify a welding procedure. Visual inspection is strictly controlled, and yes anything other than silver or straw color requires complete removal of the weld bead along with 1/16” of surrounding material. This requirement exists regardless of whether welded qualification coupons previously passed tensile tests, bend tests, X-ray, and liquid penetrant inspection. See NAVSEA Tech Pub 278 and do a word search for titanium.

Having said that, one must keep in mind the application. Titanium is typically used in critical applications including reactor piping which must withstand shock from sea states or enemy fire. Heavy walls with multiple pass welds, Suppressors, while certainly subjected to high pressures, are a completely different animal. Very thin, welded with automated and likely orbital systems, and appear to be redundant in design (i.e. multiple baffles and welds to withstand pressure and load).

I’m about to make my first suppressor purchase, and it will likely still be a Q...blue welds and all. Proof is in the torture tests. But ideally yes I would prefer silver welds fabricated in a high purity purged environment.
 
Likes: NateVA
Feb 14, 2017
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#33
@ Kevin B. and the TBAC team, please keep your discussions going, i think its highly educational and i enjoy them, thank you!

i have a Q suppressor in NFA Jail and getting ready to buy a TBAC ( 6.5 9ultra ) after that ill probably get another Q(T-Chicken) for blasting