THREE-OH-HATE is back...

D_TROS

Flag-Sword-Cross
Aug 19, 2010
1,407
268
83
North Denver, CO
#1
Shot the JC Steel Blue Ridge PRS Match this weekend. Over 100 of the best shooters in the country and easily the best individual 2 day match ive shot all year. 90% positional which is fine by me... And man was it tight. This was literally the tightest match Ive shot. I was shooting a 308 built by Kelblys and my scope was a 4-20 Burris XTR2. And it was hammering. I dropped 2.5 pts the first day and was clean the second day. That put me in 4th place, 1.5 pts behind first. ARRRRGGGHHH my prone long range stages are still eating my lunch. Still as a 308 shooter my goal is top 20...a top 5 is wet dream material. Cant be happier.

Also, if you havnt already, check out the new CKYE-POD. It may be more $$$ than a Harris, but it is quickly becoming my favorite piece of gear.

Just giving notice - THE 308 IS BACK!!!!!!! :ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:

2018 PRS WA 2.jpg

Always fun shooting in freezing 110% humidity weather. ha.
Also thanks to the Sponsors. Fantastic prize table. Support these companies if you need any gear!

Thunder Beast Arms Corporation
Burris Optics
Vortex Optics
Leopold Optics
US OPTICS
Swaro optics
Nikon Optics
Hornady Reloading and ammo
XLR Stocks
manners stocks
McMillan stocks
Curtis Actions
defiance actions
kelblys actions
bighorn actions
defiance actions
MDT stocks and mags
Huber triggers
trigger tech triggers


These guys really donated a ton to the shooting community this year. And Im know I missed a pile of other sponsors. People love prize tables...make it worth the sponsors time by buying from them!

My load work up with Berger 168 gr hybrids and VV N140 powder. 43.9 gr gave me 2790 fps with single digit sd. (speed limit 2800) I cant decide if I want to go next node lower as its so close to the limit...
Jumping on top row was
0.000 0.020
middle row
0.030 0.040
3RD ROW
0.060 0.080

168 1.jpg

looks like a shotgun group but was shot at 300. best vert was right at 1" on the top groups. and it was cold and dark out. kinda want to do again.
also got a case stuck. that was fun. tap it out, put a socket on it and used a 1/4" bolt to pull it out. lame oh.

That being said, 2 factory ammo shot really well in my rifle - The Hunting Shack ammo and nosler match grade ammo.ive shot them both in matches and it was as good as my hand loads.



Final load 168's at 2790 OAL 2.945 43.9 gr BR2 primers.


hashtagfirsttac2trophywininprshistory
hashtagthanksWIFEY
HASHTAGionlydoitforthetrophies
hashtagfreezingcoldmatchesrock
hashtag300headingintothefinale
hashtaghashtag
hashtagwhowantsamustacheride
hashtagBOOM


Regards,
DT
 

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Covertnoob5

Sergeant of the Hide
Feb 12, 2017
1,621
259
83
#5
Great shooting. Was the entire match limited to 2800fps? Or, am I misreading your comment following your velocity?
I believe he would’ve been in the tactical division (223/308) which is limited to 2800fps. Open division prs matches are all limited to 3200fps.
 
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D_TROS

Flag-Sword-Cross
Aug 19, 2010
1,407
268
83
North Denver, CO
#15
Great shooting. Was the entire match limited to 2800fps? Or, am I misreading your comment following your velocity?
As mentioned, Tac class is limited to 2800 and 178 gr. There are usually about 4-6 Tac shooters ea match. It really is fun dealing with enough recoil to lose sight of a target if your zoom is above 15 power on positional stages. Makes good data and consistent rifle all the more important. Obviously it sucks asking for wind help and essentially doubling what the flat 6's tell you haha...


308win the little engine that could 😎
Nice shooting and nice rifle. What action did you build on ?
As mentioned, Atlas. Ive only got about 1200 rnds on the 308 action this year so it is really starting to get slick/broke in. Impressive action for sure.


Lies.

We all know the .308 only flies to 600 yards where it looses 100% of its velocity and falls to the ground instantly.
You don't know how true this is. I had to actually borrow my friends 6.5x47 ammo and shoot it in my rifle for any target past 600. It probably affected my hit ratio...:unsure:

(Disclaimer...don't try that at home, youll be sure to miss :rolleyes:)



Once I get my hardware in the mail Ill post more pics of my rifle. Flying to matches is a pain.

Regards,
DT
 

sandwarrior

Gunny Sergeant
Apr 21, 2007
4,610
376
83
in yooperland
#17
My issue really has never been so much with the .308 as much as the fact it's never had a high BC/stable projectile stuffed into it. the 175 SMK was an improvement over the 168 SMK. The 175 SMK is far less capable than the 174 gr. RUAG of 7.5 Swiss fame. Even it doesn't match up with the 175 Berger Hybrid. Those are real improvements over what we ALWAYS used to shoot in .308.

FWIW, I spent of lot of years talking (arguing) with people about the advantages of smaller diamter bullets that were more efficient through the air in flight. I even got many to see what the differences were. What I always got was, "Still, it's a .308." "We need a .308 cause it's better." Fine, just make the bullet more efficient AND capable of transcending the transonic range without going radically unstable, or at least losing too much accuracy.

So when I hear the old joke...without acknowledging why .308's arent competitive at the 1k line, I see this>>
Lies.

We all know the .308 only flies to 600 yards where it looses 100% of its velocity and falls to the ground instantly.
as an excuse to be sub-par and justify owning a .308 for long range. The .308 would be fine if you had bullets that WERE really tuned to long range to be competitive, not maybe just get there.
 

Bender

Something witty here
Feb 12, 2014
3,229
3,279
113
Cheyenne WY.
#18
My issue really has never been so much with the .308 as much as the fact it's never had a high BC/stable projectile stuffed into it. the 175 SMK was an improvement over the 168 SMK. The 175 SMK is far less capable than the 174 gr. RUAG of 7.5 Swiss fame. Even it doesn't match up with the 175 Berger Hybrid. Those are real improvements over what we ALWAYS used to shoot in .308.

FWIW, I spent of lot of years talking (arguing) with people about the advantages of smaller diamter bullets that were more efficient through the air in flight. I even got many to see what the differences were. What I always got was, "Still, it's a .308." "We need a .308 cause it's better." Fine, just make the bullet more efficient AND capable of transcending the transonic range without going radically unstable, or at least losing too much accuracy.

So when I hear the old joke...without acknowledging why .308's arent competitive at the 1k line, I see this>>


as an excuse to be sub-par and justify owning a .308 for long range. The .308 would be fine if you had bullets that WERE really tuned to long range to be competitive, not maybe just get there.
The Berger 185 juggernaut was nothing to sneeze at. @Lowlight was getting 2700fps out of an AI and 2000MR powder. I sold my .308 before trying them but I have all the components. I’ll just buy a .308 prefit for my rpr and try them out eventually.
 
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sandwarrior

Gunny Sergeant
Apr 21, 2007
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376
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#21
I, in fact, really like the .308. The barrels practically last forever at factory pressures. And out to 700yds or so, they shoot neck and neck with a 6.5CM.
At factory pressures I don't find the 6.5CM's wearing too bad either. Just a whole lot of performance beyond where a .308 stops.

I agree too, I didn't state the 185 Juggernaut, but it is a great bullet.

To be clear, the issue isn't so much about the .308, it's .308 dia bullet makers going, "This is how we've always done these..." that drives me nuts. .308" is just a diameter. Within that diameter is a way to make the bullet the most efficient and capable. It may take more weight or not. But, it is not so radically profound because we see 155's reaching out there. When we see 1-8" twist .308's you'll see similar performance bullets as lighter cartridges.
 
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sandwarrior

Gunny Sergeant
Apr 21, 2007
4,610
376
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in yooperland
#23
This is what I'm talking about. At least it's going in the right direction.
The Hornady 168 eld-m is looking good with a .523bc, and I'm getting 2814fps out of a 22.5" barrel and 42.2gr AR Comp powder.
Whether a fan or not of the .300 BLK you gotta admit that without it, .308 barrel twists would have remained stuck at 1-10" at best. With the .300 BLK, twists were tightened to as much as 1-8". You can push a pretty long sleek bullet with that twist. Powder technology is great, but at this point it's pretty much across the board. Nothing has really come down the pike that is an all-out favorite of one cartridge, without being very useful in many others.
 

TorF

Sergeant
Oct 9, 2003
424
22
18
57
Norway
#24
Give the 190gr Nosler Accubond a try in a long 1-10" barrel. It's touching bc .6.
In the old days I used to shoot 190SMK@2500fps on 500m MS rams. The 190 really hammered the rams to the ground :)
 

308pirate

Gunny Sergeant
Apr 25, 2017
4,628
2,155
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#26
When we see 1-8" twist .308's you'll see similar performance bullets as lighter cartridges.
At some point bullet length/weight is going to overwhelm the case's ability to drive it at a speed that makes use of the aerodynamics.

I don't have any evidence to prove it but I think you will see little practical reason to use, or gain from, .308 barrels rifled much faster than 1 in 10 in supersonic applications.
 
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sandwarrior

Gunny Sergeant
Apr 21, 2007
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376
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#27
At some point bullet length/weight is going to overwhelm the case's ability to drive it at a speed that makes use of the aerodynamics.

I don't have any evidence to prove it but I think you will see little practical reason to use, or gain from, .308 barrels rifled much faster than 1 in 10 in supersonic applications.
I'm not the one in the manufacturing world that is going to make the changes. That is already happening as we speak. I am getting on board with them.
 

308pirate

Gunny Sergeant
Apr 25, 2017
4,628
2,155
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#28
I'm not the one in the manufacturing world that is going to make the changes. That is already happening as we speak. I am getting on board with them.
I guess you don't know the answer to this?: At some point bullet length/weight is going to overwhelm the case's ability to drive it at a speed that makes use of the aerodynamics.
 
Feb 10, 2017
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#29
I guess you don't know the answer to this?: At some point bullet length/weight is going to overwhelm the case's ability to drive it at a speed that makes use of the aerodynamics.
This is the problem with 30 caliber in general. Look at Berger's 30 cal match line of bullets. Everything 200 gr and up has a G1 BC of .6 or higher (hell, the 230 has a .717) and I'd say that's pretty competitive with a lot of bullets. Stick it in a 308, twist it right, I'll even give you the benefit of the doubt that you aren't restricted by magazine length and the bullet is only seated to the neck-shoulder junction. How fast are you going to push that bullet from a 308 case with a reasonable length barrel? If you can get that bullet to a decent speed, then you're going to have higher recoil. Now why would I beat myself up shooting that when I can get much of the same ballistic performance (with an obvious reduction in kinetic energy) from a 6mm, 6.5mm, 7mm bullet? It takes too much effort to get a highly efficient 30 caliber bullet to decent speeds, and in my opinion, that is the problem with 30 caliber and 308 in a nutshell.
 

sandwarrior

Gunny Sergeant
Apr 21, 2007
4,610
376
83
in yooperland
#30
I guess you don't know the answer to this?: At some point bullet length/weight is going to overwhelm the case's ability to drive it at a speed that makes use of the aerodynamics.
Actually, I do know the answer to that one. What I see is you saying it can't be done to the same effect, so don't make improvements. I'm saying I'll take what improvements that can be made. Mostly because so many want to stick with the .308. Make it more competitive rather than just sit back and say it'll never do what the others do, so don't try.
 
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308pirate

Gunny Sergeant
Apr 25, 2017
4,628
2,155
113
#32
Actually, I do know the answer to that one.
Cool

What's the heaviest bullet you plan on launching? 250 gr, 300 gr, 350? How fast can you push it, with what powder, and with what barrel length?

So that I and others can learn, can you put up a table showing the following
Bullet weight
Barrel twist
Barrel length
Max safe MV

That way we can see what's on the horizon
 

308pirate

Gunny Sergeant
Apr 25, 2017
4,628
2,155
113
#33
This is the problem with 30 caliber in general. Look at Berger's 30 cal match line of bullets. Everything 200 gr and up has a G1 BC of .6 or higher (hell, the 230 has a .717) and I'd say that's pretty competitive with a lot of bullets. Stick it in a 308, twist it right, I'll even give you the benefit of the doubt that you aren't restricted by magazine length and the bullet is only seated to the neck-shoulder junction. How fast are you going to push that bullet from a 308 case with a reasonable length barrel? If you can get that bullet to a decent speed, then you're going to have higher recoil. Now why would I beat myself up shooting that when I can get much of the same ballistic performance (with an obvious reduction in kinetic energy) from a 6mm, 6.5mm, 7mm bullet? It takes too much effort to get a highly efficient 30 caliber bullet to decent speeds, and in my opinion, that is the problem with 30 caliber and 308 in a nutshell.
F-TR and Palma shooters are exploring the current limits of what the 308 can do. They are not constrained by bullet weight nor magazine length.
 

milanuk

F'ing nuke
Mar 23, 2002
1,576
81
48
45
Wenatchee WA
#36
Yes they are... but most anyone who is 'good' is trying to make the Palma team... so guess what they shoot? 155s.

Even the guys that aren't chasing that particular goal... rarely go above 185 gn. First off, there's a bit of stigma inside their 'community' that even if the rules say there's no bullet weight limit, that you're kind of / almost / not quite 'cheating' if you run heavies, or it must be because you can't read the wind for $hit. Second, there's a limit to how heavy of a gun most people can hold for a long period of time, even with a sling... and it's usually a good 4-5 lbs less than your typical FTR gun. The recoil and torque from 200+ gn bullets, with the lighter gun and *without* the benefit of some of the hydraulic recoil dampening systems that have become more popular in FTR the last few years... means that of the few people who want to run the heavies anyway, they usually don't go quite as heavy/hot as the FTR guns do.

Even then... FTR seems to have settled back down to the 200s, for the most part. Lots of guys ran the 215s for a number of years, but found that they weren't that easy to drive. Between recoil, torque, some anecdotal evidence of weird behavior in certain wind conditions (head/tail) and the struggle with consistent gun handling under all the above... once the 200.20Xs came out and bridged the performance 'gap' between the 200 Hybrid and the 215 Hybrid, well the decision wasn't hard. 230s were even more of the same - what you picked up in the wind, it seemed like you gave up in vertical.

The new S200MKs are interesting... they are a *lot* longer than the 200.20Xs - like 70 thou longer. To the point that the 'theoretical' optimal twist rate is more like a 9 or 9.5, at least at .308 Win velocities, to capitalize on all that available BC.

A local match has had a 'Tactical' class that was always limited to .308 165-178 gn or .223 <77gn, mv limit for both of 2750. Recently there as talk of changing the .308 limit to 175+, which I thought was hilarious. I threatened to take one of my 110BA (long action large shank with 3.850" cip mags) actions, put one of my large-shank .308 Win barrels on it, run in my 2013 US FTR team reamer to lengthen the throat, and run *mag fed* 200.20Xs @ 2600 fps. Then the rules went 'back' to 175-185, and now just 175 gn period. Where's the fun in that? :ROFLMAO:
 
Feb 10, 2017
272
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#37
F-TR and Palma shooters are exploring the current limits of what the 308 can do. They are not constrained by bullet weight nor magazine length.
I mean, it's all fine and dandy if you want to shoot F-TR, but for many of the guys on here it's not feasible if it's not magazine fed. I for one find it unrealistic if my rifle could be mag fed (which it can) and I don't use that ability. Referring back to milan's post, even the F-TR guys are setting down to less than the heaviest bullets. If you're just shooting and you're not constrained by rules and you want to see how far you can push a 308, then you're welcome to build a 30+ pound custom throated gun so it tames the recoil, but again, not realistic for many guys.

Regardless, my question still stands: if I do not place a priority on kinetic energy (which I won't when target shooting), why would I be trying to throw a 230 grain 308 as fast as I can push it instead of using a ballistically equal/superior smaller caliber round that I can get going as fast/faster with less effort and less recoil?
 
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308pirate

Gunny Sergeant
Apr 25, 2017
4,628
2,155
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#38
Regardless, my question still stands: if I do not place a priority on kinetic energy (which I won't when target shooting), why would I be trying to throw a 230 grain 308 as fast as I can push it instead of using a ballistically equal/superior smaller caliber round that I can get going as fast/faster with less effort and less recoil?
I agree with you. If someone wants better than what's common in 308 Winchester loads, the answer isn't a 308 Winchester load with a super heavy bullet and a charge that needs custom reamers to avoid blowing primers.

I suppose some people want to do it just to do it. I'm not one of them.
 

sandwarrior

Gunny Sergeant
Apr 21, 2007
4,610
376
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#39
I mean, it's all fine and dandy if you want to shoot F-TR, but for many of the guys on here it's not feasible if it's not magazine fed. I for one find it unrealistic if my rifle could be mag fed (which it can) and I don't use that ability. Referring back to milan's post, even the F-TR guys are setting down to less than the heaviest bullets. If you're just shooting and you're not constrained by rules and you want to see how far you can push a 308, then you're welcome to build a 30+ pound custom throated gun so it tames the recoil, but again, not realistic for many guys.

Regardless, my question still stands: if I do not place a priority on kinetic energy (which I won't when target shooting), why would I be trying to throw a 230 grain 308 as fast as I can push it instead of using a ballistically equal/superior smaller caliber round that I can get going as fast/faster with less effort and less recoil?
There's the crux. Why do the bullets have to be "standard .308" when we have room to make them better? Better even to the point where we need to increase the twist to make them stabilize. You don't need to increase weight to make a higher BC. The dimensions are what need to be massaged. Longer ogive, Hybrid ogive to bearing body, less steep boat-tail and when combined, longer overall.

Charlie Bell, who I shot with when we both lived in North Idaho (he's still there, just south a little) made fantastic .308 bullets with his company "Pure-Precision. http://pure-precision.com/ He's making rifle parts now, but I last understood still has a hand in the bullet making part.

Josh Kunz making the Flat-Line bullets (with Warner Tool). See Franks review: (I know it's old)
 
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308220

Karma Enforcer
Jul 19, 2014
460
244
43
#43
You guys are like a bunch of moms at a football game. They meet, they talk, "Which one is your son?" "He's in front of the bench, over on the left side." "Ah, mine's in front of the bench in the middle..." ;)LOL:D:D:D
Funny. I have seen the same thing with 6.5 CM threads. Bunch of guys patting each other on the ass and agreeing they are the best.


What is wrong with guys with a common interest (the 308) discussing in a 308 thread, ya know, the 308?
 

sandwarrior

Gunny Sergeant
Apr 21, 2007
4,610
376
83
in yooperland
#44
Funny. I have seen the same thing with 6.5 CM threads. Bunch of guys patting each other on the ass and agreeing they are the best.


What is wrong with guys with a common interest (the 308) discussing in a 308 thread, ya know, the 308?
They are patting each other on the ass cuz they all made it to a mile.
Unlike the "fat kids at track" who tend to leave their hands on each other's asses. And who have no intention of ever going the mile, as they'll never win it.😊
 

308220

Karma Enforcer
Jul 19, 2014
460
244
43
#45
They are patting each other on the ass cuz they all made it to a mile.
Unlike the "fat kids at track" who tend to leave their hands on each other's asses. And who have no intention of ever going the mile, as they'll never win it.😊
So, the 308 shooters are the "fat kids on the track"? Incase you didnt know, 308 has made it a mile more than once. And since when does a mile become the "gold standard" for these 2? At a mile, the 308 and CM are BOTH falling like a rock and the fart off a honey bee moves your bullet far enough to miss with either.

1k yards is the standard when talking "long range" with the 308 or CM. The CM isnt a mile cartridge. No matter how much you pat (cupped) each other on the ass. Want to shoot a mile and actually hit something without walking 10+ rounds into the target? Get a bigger gun. If your CM shoulders can handle it? Idk..
 

sandwarrior

Gunny Sergeant
Apr 21, 2007
4,610
376
83
in yooperland
#46
So, the 308 shooters are the "fat kids on the track"? Incase you didnt know, 308 has made it a mile more than once. And since when does a mile become the "gold standard" for these 2? At a mile, the 308 and CM are BOTH falling like a rock and the fart off a honey bee moves your bullet far enough to miss with either.

1k yards is the standard when talking "long range" with the 308 or CM. The CM isnt a mile cartridge. No matter how much you pat (cupped) each other on the ass. Want to shoot a mile and actually hit something without walking 10+ rounds into the target? Get a bigger gun. If your CM shoulders can handle it? Idk..
Been to a bunch of mile shoots. 1K is a ways, but not "the standard". .308 isn't the chosen "small cartridge" to get there either. 6mm's, 6.5's and 7mm's (x47 or -08). Even when you have better stabilizing bullets in .308 they take 10-15 more mil to get to a mile.

Like you said earlier, though, finding a balance in weight vs. usable speed is the trick. I use a long barreled 7mm-08 with a 1-8" twist. Just like the .308, finding the tight twist was like finding a tree that a unicorn pissed on so you could scrape the bark. So when we got the bark scraped, we sprinkled it on my barrel and it shoots to a mile all the time. With 180 Berger hybrids, it does quite well. Again, the long barrel as to be able to use a slow powder (Re-19) and get a lot of push while not hitting high initial pressures. I get to a mile with 68 min at 70 deg. high desert. (4k ASL)

Bullet stability is the key. Anything can get there accurately if you can keep the bullet stable through the transonic range. Obviously, how the barrels and bullets are made are the biggest factors. We need to change how they are done, so we can increase their capability.