This one has me by the balls

W54/XM-388

Online Training Member
Oct 1, 2005
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Dallas, TX
#2
My guess would be that possibly the reason the court case went down this way is that it seems very likely he was not an "Innocent law abiding citizen".
I'm guessing there is a strong possibility that he was involved in something not legal in the state & was expecting "Fellow entrepreneurs" to be the ones busting down his door, hence the shoot first, shoot more, approach

There is probably someone on the forum here with a bit more firsthand knowledge of the situation that could explain it from the police point of view.

I would venture that the Jury probably thought that he should have figured out it was the police before shooting or at the least somewhere after the first shot or two and that emptying your mag kind of says to the jury that you had a bit of time. It sounds like the prosecution laid out a believable case that somewhere either before he started shooting or while shooting he had a clear view of the police and should have known to not shoot or to stop shooting immediately.

Also as I usually advise people, don't use the AK series for your defensive weapon if you have another choice... juries tend to equate them with criminals.

He should however thank his lucky stars, the police showed rather great restraint as proved by him not being dead.
He should also thank his lucky stars for the light sentence by comparison, judges and juries in Texas don't much like people who shoot at the police unless it's under some freak crazy unavoidable circumstance.
 
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lash

Swamp Rat
Sep 28, 2012
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Central Florida
#3
My guess would be that possibly the reason the court case went down this way is that it seems very likely he was not an "Innocent law abiding citizen".
I'm guessing there is a strong possibility that he was involved in something not legal in the state & was expecting "Fellow entrepreneurs" to be the ones busting down his door, hence the shoot first, shoot more, approach

There is probably someone on the forum here with a bit more firsthand knowledge of the situation that could explain it from the police point of view.

I would venture that the Jury probably thought that he should have figured out it was the police before shooting or at the least somewhere after the first shot or two and that emptying your mag kind of says to the jury that you had a bit of time. It sounds like the prosecution laid out a believable case that somewhere either before he started shooting or while shooting he had a clear view of the police and should have known to not shoot or to stop shooting immediately.

Also as I usually advise people, don't use the AK series for your defensive weapon if you have another choice... juries tend to equate them with criminals.

He should however thank his lucky stars, the police showed rather great restraint as proved by him not being dead.
He should also thank his lucky stars for the light sentence by comparison, judges and juries in Texas don't much like people who shoot at the police unless it's under some freak crazy unavoidable circumstance.
Considering that this was an approved no-knock drug raid on his home, I'd say that your analysis is pretty close, since the jury had good reason to believe that this was not a simple case of self defense.
 

W54/XM-388

Online Training Member
Oct 1, 2005
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Dallas, TX
#6
not enough in the article to give me direction at whom to throw rocks
If you research the articles from back when it happened in 2016 (I think), it seems there was some drug stuff found in their trash, some surveillance of the party being involved in "the trade", a warrant applied for, and a small amount of stuff found after the raid in the house.
I think since they already had him on a more serious charge, they didn't bring the drug charges as part of the case.

My leaning is more towards the "If you are a drug dealer that shoots at the police... be glad you are alive to go to court", but I don't have all the facts, they do seem to be a bit scarce in this case. I think possibly the local papers are a bit biased against the law and order side in that city.
 

mcameron

Sergeant of the Hide
Nov 17, 2011
2,901
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113
#8
Don't run a drug house or do other stupid and grossly illegal shit, and you won't have a no-knock warrant executed on your house
.... not always the case....

There are a number of reports of police raiding the wrong house entirely, and plugging the guys because they had the audacity to wake up to someone barging through their doors
 
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TheGerman

Oberleutnant
Jan 25, 2010
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Out West
#9
I think about this situation from time to time and what I'd end up doing. Seeing as how I don't run a drug house and the cops have absolutely zero interest in me, I may get a bit more of the benefit of the doubt.

But if you no knock or come into my house at 2am its very unlikely that you won't be getting shot at. I have both a loaded handgun with 2 reloads as well as a loaded AR with 2 reloads within reach of my bed in a bedroom that has a hallway that makes a perfect perpendicular ambush location for anything walking a few feet past the front door.
 

supercorndogs

Professor Dickweed
Feb 17, 2014
2,679
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#10
Don't run a drug house or do other stupid and grossly illegal shit, and you won't have a no-knock warrant executed on your home.
Unfortunately thats not true. I can think of at least twice where I have seen cases of no knock raids going to the wrong house.
 
Aug 24, 2010
4,863
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Northeast Wyoming
#11
.... not always the case....

There are a number of reports of police raiding the wrong house entirely, and plugging the guys because they had the audacity to wake up to someone barging through their doors
More people win Powerball than have a wrong address hit done on their home. Both come with astronomical odds of happening to the point only the foolish worry about either. Not saying some departments don't have piss-poor reconnaissance of their target site (if they even do it at all) or poor execution of their raids, there's some that absolutely do, but a hit carried out on the wrong location is very, very rare.

For the record, I'm not a fan of no-knock warrants being awarded unless there is strong evidence of weapons and intent to use them being present within the location, and assurance there are no children on site unless absolutely unavoidable. Surprising them for the sake of preserving evidence is not a good enough reason in my book for a no-knock. Save that shit for suspected terrorists, murderers and kidnappers where the element of surprise will save lives, not potentially cost them.

My thinking in that may be flawed, my raid execution included a Force Recon platoon doing the hit and missiles being included in possible breaching techniques, me on the R&S end of the operation, but I didn't operate inside the US either.
 

supercorndogs

Professor Dickweed
Feb 17, 2014
2,679
744
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#12
More people win Powerball than have a wrong address hit done on their home. Both come with astronomical odds of happening to the point only the foolish worry about either. Not saying some departments don't have piss-poor reconnaissance of their target site (if they even do it at all) or poor execution of their raids, there's some that absolutely do, but a hit carried out on the wrong location is very, very rare.

For the record, I'm not a fan of no-knock warrants being awarded unless there is strong evidence of weapons and intent to use them being present within the location, and assurance there are no children on site unless absolutely unavoidable. Surprising them for the sake of preserving evidence is not a good enough reason in my book for a no-knock. Save that shit for suspected terrorists, murderers and kidnappers where the element of surprise will save lives, not potentially cost them.

My thinking in that may be flawed, my raid execution included a Force Recon platoon doing the hit and missiles being included in possible breaching techniques, me on the R&S end of the operation, but I didn't operate inside the US either.
Same thing could be said about burglars in the middle of the night, but we are all ready for that. Any no knock raids at the wrong house is something everyone should be concerned about. Just what kind of morons are we giving permission to armor up, kick in doors, and put lives at risk? If we can't be 100% they will go to the right place.
 
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#13
No knocks are stupid. The cops use no knocks like candy, LEO's seal the deal in other ways. I know of two cases where a perp was pissed at someone an planted evidence in their garbage or yard. A no knock happened an it cost 10'sof K's of dollars for the folks to prove they did nothing wrong. This same thing can happen to anyone at anytime. A no knock at many places will not go well for another reason that seems to be cropping up in some areas. Dirt bags dressing as cops an doing a no knock. My place cop or, no cop, someones going to have a toe tag when leaving as no one can run 22K FPS.

Fucking no knocks is a lazy way to hook some one up, at some point they will come out of their space, hook them up then!
 
Likes: ArmyJerry
Aug 24, 2010
4,863
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Northeast Wyoming
#14
Same thing could be said about burglars in the middle of the night, but we are all ready for that. Any no knock raids at the wrong house is something everyone should be concerned about. Just what kind of morons are we giving permission to armor up, kick in doors, and put lives at risk? If we can't be 100% they will go to the right place.
Actually, burglaries happens at a rate that is reported and is (unfortunately) very common, over 1.5 million in 2016 according to FBI statistics. No-knock on the wrong house is so rare that it makes national news and a family gets a 7+ figure payout every time it occurs. So no, I'm not worried about it nor should any other law abiding citizen be either.

Police are human, humans fuck up, even US mil ran a Spooky hit on a hospital while liberating Konduz. But as tragic and headline grabbing as those mistakes are, they're all still very rare.
 

ArmyJerry

Staff Sergeant
Nov 22, 2012
6,142
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#18
True snookie, but if its truth, it is truth. Fact is, here in Texas if you kill a cop you will die unless there are serious extenuating circumstances. This is the second one in a few years there had extenuating circumstances. The first one was a nut case black dude executing a cop who was on his way home, shot him in the back of the head at the height of Obama / MSM stirring up racial cop hate unnecessarily, a goddam outright tragic case. Turns out the killer was mentally retarded for real and the cops family ended up not wanting the death penalty but life in a mental health facility. End of the day, if you shoot a cop that cop best be doing something questionable or you will be killed, by cops, citizens or by the chamber, or by blowing your ass up with a robot ala the Dallas shooter. Something tells me there is a lot more to this story.

https://www.click2houston.com/news/...puty-darren-goforth-to-plead-guilty-to-murder

These types of threads are just cop hater bait.
 

deersniper

Online Training Member
Feb 22, 2007
2,344
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N. Maryland
#20
No knocks are stupid. The cops use no knocks like candy, LEO's seal the deal in other ways. I know of two cases where a perp was pissed at someone an planted evidence in their garbage or yard. A no knock happened an it cost 10'sof K's of dollars for the folks to prove they did nothing wrong. This same thing can happen to anyone at anytime. A no knock at many places will not go well for another reason that seems to be cropping up in some areas. Dirt bags dressing as cops an doing a no knock. My place cop or, no cop, someones going to have a toe tag when leaving as no one can run 22K FPS.

Fucking no knocks is a lazy way to hook some one up, at some point they will come out of their space, hook them up then!

Woah. Stop the thread. What HD weapon are you using?
 
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ArmyJerry

Staff Sergeant
Nov 22, 2012
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#21
So did the British in 1775, illegal and unconstitutional warrants are not worth the paper they are written on.

To all you guys keeping pistols and AK's as your go to, try keeping a 12 gauge shorty with 8 rounds of buckshot, face shots only.
They have warrants, that's kind of the exception to search and seizure.
 
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deersniper

Online Training Member
Feb 22, 2007
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N. Maryland
#22
Actually, burglaries happens at a rate that is reported and is (unfortunately) very common, over 1.5 million in 2016 according to FBI statistics. No-knock on the wrong house is so rare that it makes national news and a family gets a 7+ figure payout every time it occurs. So no, I'm not worried about it nor should any other law abiding citizen be either.

Police are human, humans fuck up, even US mil ran a Spooky hit on a hospital while liberating Konduz. But as tragic and headline grabbing as those mistakes are, they're all still very rare.
Yeah swatting never happens.
 
Aug 24, 2010
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#23
C'mon Jerry, you can do better than mentioning something that predates the Revolutionary War and Bill of Rights. At least bash the present day judges signing off on warrants at the cyclic...
 
Aug 24, 2010
4,863
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Northeast Wyoming
#24
Yeah swatting never happens.
Neither does rival gangs calling in bogus info on targets, and law enforcement taking their word as gold. Read my above opinion on what no-knocks should be reserved for.

And getting swatted is even more rare than winning Powerball while getting struck by lightning. Some guys still have all the luck, even if it's bad luck, but again, very, very rare.

I feel like I'm repeating myself.
 

ArmyJerry

Staff Sergeant
Nov 22, 2012
6,142
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#25
I have written off judges, they have destroyed justice in our country, there is no law if our law is lawless.

There are a lot of similarities in our present day to those of the 1770's, just substitute London for DC.

C'mon Jerry, you can do better than mentioning something that predates the Revolutionary War and Bill of Rights. At least bash the present day judges signing off on warrants at the cyclic...
 
Oct 23, 2011
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Forest hill, Louisiana
#27
Dont violate the 4th amendment and you wont get shot.
They have warrants, that's kind of the exception to search and seizure.

I know we are talking about extreme circumstances, and examples. But just because a judge approves a no-knock raid doesnt make it (Constitutional). The Constitution applies to ALL Americans at ALL times. Thats the point of having it!

If you agree with suspending your rights, thats you. But dont expect other Americans to side with tyranny. And in these examples, no knock raids are tyranny.
 
Likes: ArmyJerry
#28
Woah. Stop the thread. What HD weapon are you using?
No weapon just std items from Walmart an Lowes, an if you buy it all at lowes an are past military they will give you a 10% discount! Standing up against domestic terrorists an getting a 10% discount at the same time, win--win! A gun will be worthless in whats coming, hide your shit in plain site that most people don't have a clue about, ID'ing. When you ets the training does not just go away.
 
Dec 20, 2017
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#29
No knocks need to end. There's no real need other than "they have an opportunity to dispose of evidence" excuse.

Frankly, IMO, they're unconstitutional and completely overused. When these became a 'thing' there was concern that it would become overused and we were told by 'them' that they would "only" use it in extreme cases. Now it's the norm. And we've seen the results.
 
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