The PX Super User

tnichols

Sergeant
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Jan 23, 2010
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Morley IA
I've read/skimmed both pages of this thread. In my mind it's simple, play by Frank's (or the Mods) rules, intuition, etc... or get a time out. Second offence, goodbye. I can still hear my dad saying, "As long as you put your feet under MY table, you'll do as I say". Same here. It worked then (for the most part) and if it was violated, there was punishment...right or wrong.

Frank , Tucker, and all the others that keep this site running shouldn't have to be hall/playground monitors.
 
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deersniper

Truth Teller
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Banned !
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Feb 22, 2007
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We should leave the people selling super cheap stuff alone they are providing a service lol
 

powdahound76

Sergeant
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Sep 7, 2011
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Denver CO
Screw em.

I may have recently done business with one of these “guys”. This issue wasnt readily apparent to me at the time.
I will inquire.
If so, will not use again despite the good deal for me. Do not want to support this crap.
First time for me. Usually buy from known and long term members.
 
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Basher

I fly stuff and I know things.
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Dec 13, 2004
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Chandler AZ, USA
I've skimmed through this thread, and in some way, I feel I fit this title. :confused: I don't personally feel I'm so much an abuser of the system (I'm not a commercial entity, nor an FFL), but I have used the PX fairly heavily in recent times. And while not a regular offender, I have been guilty of bumping prematurely. Mea culpa! I'm making various efforts to change (adopting the two-day (or longer) bump, combining ads where it makes sense, etc.), and my selling activity is about to drop off significantly now that I've narrowed things down to what I like/need to run a complete setup. I hope both remove me from this pool. I feel that I do contribute to the forum overall, but I could definitely shift things around to where my contributions far outweigh my PX usage. Making more regular appearances at local matches, and utilizing the Online Training will help there, I believe. I don't think I've ever had a deal go bad here on the Hide, at least not as a seller, so I at least have that going for me...

All that said, I'm a member of various other forums, as most of us are. One requires ALL members to pay a yearly fee to access the PX as a seller, but not as a buyer. The other (AR15.com) merely offers a paid membership as an upgrade. I'm fine with both, and in all honesty, would be happy to contribute to the site via a paid membership or upgrade, PX related or not. I'm here often enough that I might as well be doing something to help out!

Heck, do a buy-in or membership entirely outside of the PX to remove liability and have it simply be something where a little extra is available (access to SH branded group buys or products, maybe early access to a few select spots reserved for SH Contributors in training classes, etc.), or even just for the hell of it. That wouldn't solve the PX issue, but site staff would at least get some kickback for their efforts and would take the edge off dealing with all of the drama around here. :)
 
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Diver160651

Who cares
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Feb 7, 2013
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My suggestion - The PX is invisible to until you have 3 months AND 100 posts.
Bump exceeding 1X/24 hours gets you a month off.

@Lowlight - I know you didn't start this place to get rich, but honestly, you are sitting on a gold mine with the way the PX has evolved.
Find a way to monetize it.
Get a company like GB or whoever to run it for 3% of sales and cut you a monthly check for 1% of that. They keep 2%.
Everybody wins.
No Gun Broker or Guns America affiliate stuff.. it would be a one way ticket to de-value the hide in my opinion.

Ya, Frank should make more $$ and maybe the guys like Tucker.. but partnering with Gun Broker is kinda like the Scout thing.. looks good when you think someone will do the hard work, until you realize they are sucking the blood out of your baby!
 
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mkollman74

Quo Vadis?
Belligerents
Nov 5, 2009
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154
WA, USA
I just want to control the abuse, I don't want to limit it.

The PX does bring in traffic and maybe that is the middle ground I have to find.

When I charged $33 dollars for a PX account it was pretty good, but now at $100 that is meant to make it a bit more serious about just coming here to post an ad.

It may be a case of finding that perfect middle ground, so the scammers will stay away, and yet it brings in a lot of traffic, cause it does bring in traffic.

To be honest, the guys abusing it are the issue, and they could get in trouble over it. If the ATF sees the number of sales you are conducting you can run into an issue as being a dealer without a dealer license. And the ATF does have accounts on here.

I want it be fair, but I don't want to kill the section completely
It's your site, if you or your mods spot a scammer, pop 'em... 'nuff said. Maybe you are making it too complex by trying to find the perfect model. Just let your mods go to work. Of course, I don't know the volume we are talking about, so perhaps this is naive.
 

Dthomas3523

Well Calloused Knees
Hessian
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Jan 31, 2018
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I definitely use the PX a ton. But I rarely, if ever make a profit on an item.

I like trying/testing a lot of things and it’s very easy to find used items from someone who didn’t like something.

That being said, I don’t see a reason not to roll out whatever rules you like. Your house.


Also, as @TheGerman said, the asshat with the fur hat is 100% using it for profit.
 

JimLee

Sergeant of the Hide
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Minuteman
Nov 14, 2018
407
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How about no "NIB", "NOS",or "New unused" sales unless you have a commercial account? Or maybe limit it to one a month for the occasional guy who bought something he didn't like. I know that wouldn't stop the resellers of used stuff, but if alot of the people abusing the system are doing undeclared business selling new stuff this would put a huge dent in those items, probably forcing them to pay up or fuck off. Just an idea, I do have to admit I don't know the details of what it takes to police this stuff, therefore my ideas may be shit.
 
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MarinePMI

Battery Operated Grunt
Belligerents
Jun 3, 2010
4,502
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San Diego, Ca
Here's a thought...

Track the PX post count, and compare it to the forum content count. If the PX count exceeds the forums' post count, their PX access is locked out. If they start to pad their count with random BS posts, people can flag them. If they want to exceed content contribution they pay the high "commercial" sales price for full PX access.

Just spit balling here...
 
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blbennett1288

de·plor·a·ble
Belligerents
Apr 24, 2017
1,422
781
119
Hoover, Alabama
I think there are a lot of people that fall into the category @Dthomas3523 described. People who like to try new products and buy/sell pretty regularly without making a profit. I think this is particularly true of the Optics and Accessories PX Sections. I get that, and have been guilty of bumping too soon, and understand this creates unneeded traffic. The 2-Day bump rule makes sense and the search function here is actually much better than it used to be on Scout or Pre-Scout. I have actually stopped posting WTB's and just searching for what I want and contacting people directly who might have that item for sale with something else.

I agree with @Diver160651 that GunBroker or GunsAmerica would essentially lead to the devaluing of the PX. I think the reason us Hide members like the PX so much is because of the open market. Shooters buying from other shooters, and not so much like it is a business transaction like GunBroker or GunsAmerica.

I am not sure who is buying from these people who are abusing the system, and maybe I am naive, but I like to think that those of us who have been around a while, not just on the Hide but Forum's in general, know a legitimate personal sale when were are looking at the listing.

Ill just echo what has already been said, it is @Lowlight 's house and however he see's fit to handle the abusers shouldn't have to be justified to the rest of us.
 
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kindabitey

Grumpy OB
Hessian
Online Training Access
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Feb 13, 2017
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I'm kind of in the same situation as @Dthomas3523 . The precision rifle world is somewhat new to me, and I'm still trying to figure out what works.
Although, I tend to "Buy high,and sell low", which isn't really good for my wallet :unsure:. The PX has saved me a few bucks buying used gear.
Of the stuff I've sold, I'm as guilty as the next guy for excessive bumping.
Also, I could be a poster child for reading comprehension. I thought, initially, that you had to have the appropriate post count to BUY in the PX.
 
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Diver160651

Who cares
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BELMONTCA
I'm kind of in the same situation as @Dthomas3523 . The precision rifle world is somewhat new to me, and I'm still trying to figure out what works.
Although, I tend to "Buy high,and sell low", which isn't really good for my wallet :unsure:. The PX has saved me a few bucks buying used gear.
Of the stuff I've sold, I'm as guilty as the next guy for excessive bumping.
Also, I could be a poster child for reading comprehension. I thought, initially, that you had to have the appropriate post count to BUY in the PX.
Although I have been doing this for longer than I should, I still get caught up just like I started shooting this year.

I was texting with @Dthomas3523 the other night and he already has me, once again ready to dip into my pocket for a ZCO, of course then I’d want to do like you and sell a really nice scope for much less than I paid for it. Again, a huge value for me and the person who isn’t caught up in wanting to look through the newest wizbang.

If we could ban guys like him and @Lowlight from sharing all the coolness, the PX wouldn’t have much to sell, or be as cool of a forum.

Darn those guys!!!
 
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AIAW

★★★★★
Belligerents
Aug 16, 2001
4,781
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Central Texas
Although I have been doing this for longer than I should, I still get caught up just like I started shooting this year.

I was texting with @Dthomas3523 the other night and he already has me, once again ready to dip into my pocket for a ZCO, of course then I’d want to do like you and sell a really nice scope for much less than I paid for it. Again, a huge value for me and the person who isn’t caught up in wanting to look through the newest wizbang.

If we could ban guys like him and @Lowlight from sharing all the coolness, the PX wouldn’t have much to sell!

Darn those guys!!!
Look at it this way. If @Dthomas3523 was a really stand-up kinda guy he would just give you said item straight-up, thusly not involving the PX at all.

Just saying ;)
 

TheMammoth

Overton goes Right
Hessian
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Feb 14, 2017
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I flip scopes here and there. I was a lurker since the pre scout days, and paid for access and online training when I came back as a way to support. Now I feel like that red bar is badge of extreme shame rofl.
 
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sabrecross

Forever a Minuteman
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Minuteman
Dec 29, 2018
501
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DFW, Texas
I flip scopes here and there. I was a lurker since the pre scout days, and paid for access and online training when I came back as a way to support. Now I feel like that red bar is badge of extreme shame rofl.
We've all made bad decisions in life at point or another ;-)
 
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Strykervet

Resident Phoenix Eye and Dim Mak Instructor
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Pierce County, WA
Tucker,
Not disagreeing but there is a difference in view rates and sales. I know where to look when I want a new item from a dealer. (all too well according to my wife :)
When I look through the PX I am looking for used items. Might just be me. IDK
This^^^^

No, you aren't getting any traffic at CameraLand or TNVC because when I need something from CameraLand I call CameraLand and when I need something from TNVC I PM 'em or to their site. Hell, in all the years I've been here I think I've gone to the dealer section like twice. And I didn't buy anything then. But I most certainly patronize the dealers and mfg.'s that support the site! They're usually the best ones to deal with anyway. Besides the two mentioned, I also use EuroOptic and because of the site I've called Cadex and know of them.

Some of the actions you aren't gonna see with the meta data. And a one size fits all rule works like gun control: it punishes us all including members of the community that give a shit, and the ones abusing it don't care anyway. They'll just move onto another site once it gets difficult and leave the rest of us to deal with the fallout.

You need to figure out a more targeted solution. Like PX traffic vs. forum traffic. Those truly abusing it probably aren't gonna have much of a forum presence, 100 posts or not, their overall traffic will be different than the rest of us. That's just a fact. How you're gonna determine it is up to you.
 
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Diver160651

Who cares
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Feb 7, 2013
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BELMONTCA
This^^^^

No, you aren't getting any traffic at CameraLand or TNVC because when I need something from CameraLand I call CameraLand and when I need something from TNVC I PM 'em or to their site. Hell, in all the years I've been here I think I've gone to the dealer section like twice. And I didn't buy anything then. But I most certainly patronize the dealers and mfg.'s that support the site! They're usually the best ones to deal with anyway. Besides the two mentioned, I also use EuroOptic and because of the site I've called Cadex and know of them.

Some of the actions you aren't gonna see with the meta data. And a one size fits all rule works like gun control: it punishes us all including members of the community that give a shit, and the ones abusing it don't care anyway. They'll just move onto another site once it gets difficult and leave the rest of us to deal with the fallout.

You need to figure out a more targeted solution. Like PX traffic vs. forum traffic. Those truly abusing it probably aren't gonna have much of a forum presence, 100 posts or not, their overall traffic will be different than the rest of us. That's just a fact. How you're gonna determine it is up to you.
Doug and Ritchard are always in the scope section. Their strategy is to offer help to questions via phone support. I like having access to them and I think this is smart; But are they both paying the same to do so?

Cameraland and SportOptics seem to have their own threads, but I am not sure all “Hide venders do”

Lastly, is there anyway for posts in the PX, not to count and tally in the regular posts?
 
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Sean the Nailer

Sergeant
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May 20, 2006
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This^^^^

No, you aren't getting any traffic at CameraLand or TNVC because when I need something from CameraLand I call CameraLand and when I need something from TNVC I PM 'em or to their site. Hell, in all the years I've been here I think I've gone to the dealer section like twice. And I didn't buy anything then. But I most certainly patronize the dealers and mfg.'s that support the site! They're usually the best ones to deal with anyway. Besides the two mentioned, I also use EuroOptic and because of the site I've called Cadex and know of them.

Some of the actions you aren't gonna see with the meta data. And a one size fits all rule works like gun control: it punishes us all including members of the community that give a shit, and the ones abusing it don't care anyway. They'll just move onto another site once it gets difficult and leave the rest of us to deal with the fallout.

You need to figure out a more targeted solution. Like PX traffic vs. forum traffic. Those truly abusing it probably aren't gonna have much of a forum presence, 100 posts or not, their overall traffic will be different than the rest of us. That's just a fact. How you're gonna determine it is up to you.
Methinks what is needed is a "Guido an' Luigi" in every city, who show up at doors unexpectedly and "take care of business" by making "offers that can't be refused".

Doing such with cordless drills, hammers, and maybe even some piano-wire could accentuate the conversation to a point of conclusion.

Any "wanna-be" Italians looking to travel "for the sake of the 'Hide"? Off-Times could be spent manning "The Wall".....

Win/Win/Win, eh? ;)
 

FishDr

Gunny Sergeant
Belligerents
Apr 10, 2014
541
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West KY
Px for used items only - and we all know what is new/used prices. You can sell a new(or newish) item but would not be full retail. “New” items go to commercial sales section.
I know that won’t work, but if you look at the offenders, most are selling new stuff. Most site contributing members are selling slightly used items they have upgraded or didn’t work for a particular application as expected. I have bought a lot of USED gear here, sold a bit, and had generally good transactions. I avoid those who have multiple ads/bumps/products …
Edit to fix autocorrect errors.
 
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dang472

Sergeant
Belligerents
Feb 3, 2012
385
55
34
35
Kingston, IL
Does one of people in this conversation have a picture of someone in a fur hat as their avatar? lol
100%. The few items I’ve sold over this last year, I spent a few days back and forth with off the wall trade offers. When I started reading about the PX abuse, this guy popped into my head immediately.

The only other forum I participate in, Vitalmx, has a similar dealer selling issue. The for sale section was started as a motorcycle swap meet but morphed into motorcycle dealers selling helmets and parts under MAP. Apparently some big companies and distributors were wanting it squashed
 

lowlight

HMFIC of this Shit
Staff member
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www.snipershide.com
Just an FYI,

Every single member we contacted about selling as either a Business or FFL Holder has declined to remain on the site. I am sure it will get written that it was all about the money, as several have indicated this being the only issue. But despite the fact we had this rule in place and it was written in more than one location, even in the welcome email, they all still worked the site as a business, just not that kinda of business.

So coming full circle, this was the end results of me contacting those operating under the radar, nobody can, "afford" to be a commercial vendor, they can only operate on here if they get 100% of the profits.

The funny part of this is, no one even tried negotiating, spreading the payments out over the year, etc, they all just said, NO I cannot pay, so I will leave. Which leaving is good, we banned those members that really pissed me off in their responses, but this is the attitude.

Thanks for the free leg up, we are off now that you want rent to use the site.
 

lowlight

HMFIC of this Shit
Staff member
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that part is clear,

I just find the attitude telling and the fact that every single person responded the same way. And trust me, most of these guys were Super Users with over 100s of posts in just the PX. I think the least amount of PX Posts was 125, some where over 500

Yes, my house, my rules, it just goes to show how sometimes more people involved in a sport or activity does not always mean better, or high quality, volume and quality do not mix
 

W54/XM-388

Online Training Member
Online Training Access
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Oct 1, 2005
5,383
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Dallas, TX
The funny part of this is, no one even tried negotiating, spreading the payments out over the year, etc, they all just said, NO I cannot pay, so I will leave. Which leaving is good, we banned those members that really pissed me off in their responses, but this is the attitude.
Thanks for the free leg up, we are off now that you want rent to use the site.
That seems really odd for those who were trying to make a business off it while pretending to be "individuals". Assuming you weren't charging some really crazy high price, you'd think that they would be interested in staying around and seeing if they could spread out the payments throughout the year so they could keep selling and making money here.

As much as some of them were selling, the combined fees they would pay on like Fleabay or Amacrap for those same items, might have been more than you were asking. Not to mention the nice shiny commercial supporter badge to help drive sales as a "legit" business.
 

Tucker301

Groundskeeper
Staff member
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Feb 13, 2015
8,808
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Southern VA
I would still favor making the PX sections off-limits and invisible until tenure and post count benchmarks are met. Something like 3 months and 100 posts. Not either/or, but both.
Something like that should help control scammers, spammers, and cheats, in addition to those who want to setup shop rent free.
 

Safety_3rd

Semi-pro whiskey sommelier
Hessian
Belligerents
Aug 31, 2017
198
43
34
Austin Texas
I would still favor making the PX sections off-limits and invisible until tenure and post count benchmarks are met. Something like 3 months and 100 posts. Not either/or, but both.
Something like that should help control scammers, spammers, and cheats, in addition to those who want to setup shop rent free.
Skimmed through a bunch of these but admittedly did not read them all. When I joined I did so because I was new and trying to learn about the sport... and buy good ish at a used price. I'm prior service Infantry and a current Fed LEO however my precision rifle experience is very limited. For me in the past I have limited my posts to where I try to be productive, or to where I can make a joke or poke fun of someone, but generally I don't post much because I usually don't have anything to say that hasn't been said. I worry that having guys have to meet a post count will limit the quality of the material (posts) guys are writing and result in a bunch of "bros" adding their "2 cents" merely for the sake upping their post counts to gain access. Personally I think Frank should get a flat rate for each post in the PX, say 5 or 10 bucks. This would limit some of the posts, and support Frank.
 
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myronman3

deez nutz
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Mar 24, 2017
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Ft. Benning School for Wayward Boys
here is the part i dont understand... myself, i guy that picks up something off the px now and then. i think i have bought 5 things from members. i’m a single dad raising two teenage boys alone, and my nephew. so i have to be careful where and how i spend. IF I CAN AFFORD AND AM WILLING to kick something back to the site, i fail to understand why folks that are doing that kind of volume can’t/are not willing to.

i guess that’s the long way of me saying if they pack up their toys and go home, ya probably aint missing out on much of anything.
 

lowlight

HMFIC of this Shit
Staff member
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Base of the Rockies
www.snipershide.com
It's not about charging every member, that is not the goal, it's about guys doing Business or treating the PX like their Private Pawnshop and turning this place into their personal revenue generator.


I am not looking to make a $1 off every member, but I am not gonna have people earn an income on here and work a business (Whether they want to call it business or not, we all know the difference)


My main issue is the guys that got "Caught" or "called out" for operating on such a level where they are clearly abusing the intent.

What part of Contributing Member don't some people get, they don't contribute in terms of posting, but they are sure as hell contributing to their bottom line, so asking for a $125 a month rent is not too crazy. They are posting shit for sale weekly
 

lte82

Shooter
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Mar 12, 2013
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How much profit do you suspect some of these PX Super Users are making a month? I must be doing this wrong, I lose my ass almost every time I sell something here LOL.
 
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lowlight

HMFIC of this Shit
Staff member
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Base of the Rockies
www.snipershide.com
Why would you invest in 100s of posts in a few short months if it was not working

I know how sales work on here, i know the power of the site to hand over vetted customers to companies

I think one guy had like 450 posts all in the PX in 4 months, who does that if things are not moving in a positive direction
 
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THEIS

Hi, Sincerely
Commercial Supporter
Belligerents
Nov 27, 2017
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Houston Texas (For the most part)
hoplitearms.com
Hi,

Another less obvious POSITIVE aspect in regards to the massive PX cleanse pertaining to the commercial accounts acting as individual accounts is that the legitimate commercial accounts are bound to see improvements in regards to their ROI for being legitimate commercial accounts because the reductions of being undercut by the illegitimate commercial account.

And this then in turn provides a more matrix based reason for those commercial accounts to purchase Ad space within the hide, provides Frank a better commercial account satisfaction matrix which can be used to get more legitimate commercial accounts.

Essentially the PX cleansing of commercial accounts masquerading as individual accounts has the potential to set the dominoes in motion for the betterment of all things under the Snipers Hide umbrella....

Sincerely,
Theis
 
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lte82

Shooter
Belligerents
Mar 12, 2013
1,444
555
219
Hi,

Another less obvious POSITIVE aspect in regards to the massive PX cleanse pertaining to the commercial accounts acting as individual accounts is that the legitimate commercial accounts are bound to see improvements in regards to their ROI for being legitimate commercial accounts because the reductions of being undercut by the illegitimate commercial account.

Sincerely,
Theis
Agreed. But until manufacturers start protecting dealers by not letting in everybody that pays a couple hundred bucks for an FFL license, it's going to happen. The industry is almost eating itself.
 

lowlight

HMFIC of this Shit
Staff member
Online Training Access
Apr 12, 2001
28,665
8,436
219
Base of the Rockies
www.snipershide.com
I am done worrying about it ...

let them all do what they want because they will anyway and have been for a while now

I am tired of talking about it because clearly, I am the unreasonable one.

One of the guys that laughed at me about being a private FFL with Wholesale accounts said it perfectly well:

All these forums are more of a trading place than anything at this point, I ask questions on the ones where I get good answers on different subjects. some are better for certain info than others. but if your going to ban anyone who has an in to buy something wholesale you wont have many members left, retail is becoming a thing of the past in my business too.
I have been educated, and it has been determined I am the problem here, not the members USING the site as they see fit, so why complain, it's free traffic right
 

Rthur

Philomath
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Apr 16, 2010
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Not Chicago, Illinios
I am done worrying about it ...

let them all do what they want because they will anyway and have been for a while now

I am tired of talking about it because clearly, I am the unreasonable one.

One of the guys that laughed at me about being a private FFL with Wholesale accounts said it perfectly well:



I have been educated, and it has been determined I am the problem here, not the members USING the site as they see fit, so why complain, it's free traffic right
Some MF'rs are ballish to say the least.
They haven't any idea how hard it is going to be to get the exposure they previously enjoyed.

R
 

Veer_G

Beware of the Dildópony!
Belligerents
Jun 15, 2008
11,642
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SEPA
Do tell....:cool:

R
Well, what's he supposed to do? Let them keep on pissing on his back and telling him that it's a light rain? I get benefit from the PX as well, but it isn't my rice bowl, and I'm not playing it like a pachinko machine as the freeloaders are.
 
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Bender

Known Troll
Belligerents
Feb 12, 2014
4,976
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Cheyenne WY.
I would just ban them for 30 days every time they show up. Like troll them out, Frank can say“oh sorry, I’ll fix it on my end” ban again, they show up 30 days later, Frank : “man, I don’t know what is going on” bam, banned again.

I could entertain myself for weeks