The PX Super User

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Ok,

I think I have a lot of the new rules for the PX figured out and the system in place will be a big help.

But we have an issue, guys who are straight up using it every day to buy and sell. They ALL Claim to not be a business, even though many have FFLs, or have wholesale accounts with other companies. But they are still not a business according to them.

This is one of the hardest things to prove in a lot of ways, but at the same time, they are clearly abusing the PX. Their history is enough in my mind to say, these guys are abusing the PX and have turned it into a cottage business.

For many it is a way to support their hobby, they buy and sell often, so it looks bad, but at the same time this is not the intent of the site.

How do we handle the serial abusers of the site who cannot be honest enough to say, "the PX has become a part-time job"

Do I have an FFL Account $250 or does this conflict with the commercial sales people ?
 

sabrecross

Forever a Minuteman
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Dec 29, 2018
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Charge the $250 and/or limit the number of sales posts per month. Saying this, I know that it will be A LOT of work to moderate but I do not see another way around it. I'm willing to help out and with the help of other members who appreciate the convenience of the PX, we can help report abusers.
 

kindabitey

Grumpy OB
Hessian
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There should be some type of account for FFL holders. If I recall correctly, one of the stipulations of getting an FFL is, "You intend to make a profit in the firearms business". If someone is going to go through the effort to get a FFL, they intend to make a profit.
 
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HMFIC of this Shit
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they are already gaming the system

Many have FFLs, or wholesale accounts with firearms businesses, like a dealer, yet they buy and sell to support their hobby.

The gaming is in full swing, and nobody wants to be honest. They tell someone, "I am a dealer for that product" it gets back to us, we confront the person and the dancing starts. Well, I dont sell new stuff only my stuff, well everyone has a wholesale account, I am not the only one, we are all doing it, this place is more of us than anyone else.

Now we are just cracking down on it and people are not too happy.
 

NukeMMC

Damn Bubblehead
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Mar 3, 2009
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Look at my history. It's probably more buying and selling than useful posts. Would it bother me to get slapped on the wrist and maybe pay a stipend to help keep this site going? Nah. I get it. This site, the plethora of forum posts, training posts/videos and a bunch of the users on here have helped me make better-informed decisions about my shooting and what I buy to support it.

I try and give back where I can by sharing what little I have learned. Sometimes feel I take more than give but there are plenty of times when I surf thru the Px and see posts that are clearly dealers who don't want to pony up for a vendor spot. Usually shake my head at those and move along.

Frank, it's your site. It does alot of good. You'll get plenty of support from those who matter. Those who don't support this kind of action ... one meant to protect the (especially new) users from guys trying to make a quick(er) buck ... well they just don't matter, do they?
 
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HMFIC of this Shit
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That is the thing,

I understand there is a difference between a business like a MHSA, and an individual who may or may not have an FFL who is using the PX 24/7. if you look at a business they post ads maybe a few times a week. The PX Super Users are posting Daily and bumping constantly.

It's this bumping and constant maintenance they provide to their ads which is the problem. This is actually what floods the PX more so than the commercial accounts.

I don't know what the answer is, the loophole is pretty big and I am not a fan of what it has turned into
 

2ndamendfan

Sergeant
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If it is purely about the bumping, and added traffic they cause the is it possible to lock the OP out of his add for 48hrs?
 
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SilentStalkr

Wonna Be Badass
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Could you charge a fee before every sales post? Like in order to post you have to pay $20 for each listing? It kind of sucks for those of us who don’t really buy/sell a lot but it is what it is. That would eliminate a lot of headache I would imagine.
 

THEIS

Hi, Sincerely
Commercial Supporter
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Hi,

I think having an "FFL" subsector would conflict with the companies that are/have been a commercial supporter of the site.

Why would they not forgo their $1500 per year "Commercial Supporter" status and just drop down to "FFL" status if they get to still sale their products?

IF they look commercial, act commercial then they ARE commercial.

IF they are NOT commercial then they are individual....Can you limit individual PX to 2 items (Not threads because they will pile 100 items into thread) per month?

Sincerely,
Theis
 

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HMFIC of this Shit
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No,

I don't want the section to be 100% paid, that is not the purpose, guys doing business on the site should pay their fair share, they are doing business. But it's not about taxing everyone to use the PX.

The PX is supposed to be for CONTRIBUTING MEMBERS, a way to say thanks for using the site. But when you have guys what are either straight up doing business as many are doing, or have created cottage industries buying and selling so frequently it's become a second job, that is not within the intent.

They are making money or creating the opportunity to buy and sell so often the ATF would look at them as a dealer. That is what I am trying to regulate.

For most people it's maybe a few things a year, or others it's a few things a week.
 

hic28

The Legman
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Could you charge a fee before every sales post? Like in order to post you have to pay $20 for each listing? It kind of sucks for those of us who don’t really buy/sell a lot but it is what it is. That would eliminate a lot of headache I would imagine.
Back in 2006-2010 I was a memeber on a big motorcycle forum with a bad ass marketplace. the owner decided to implement a $15 per add posting fee and it absolutely killed the marketplace within a month. A few years later the forum is practically dead. There are maybe 15 posts a day total.

Plus the liability for frank if he starts charging a per listing posting fee. Probably not the best approach from a cya standpoint for the forum
 

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HMFIC of this Shit
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I just want to control the abuse, I don't want to limit it.

The PX does bring in traffic and maybe that is the middle ground I have to find.

When I charged $33 dollars for a PX account it was pretty good, but now at $100 that is meant to make it a bit more serious about just coming here to post an ad.

It may be a case of finding that perfect middle ground, so the scammers will stay away, and yet it brings in a lot of traffic, cause it does bring in traffic.

To be honest, the guys abusing it are the issue, and they could get in trouble over it. If the ATF sees the number of sales you are conducting you can run into an issue as being a dealer without a dealer license. And the ATF does have accounts on here.

I want it be fair, but I don't want to kill the section completely
 

NukeMMC

Damn Bubblehead
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How about imposing a 72hr bump fence? Maybe capping the sale posts to XX/yr. Only issue would be who polices and how much time is spent policing BS when you could be out getting trigger therapy? I guess that's your whole point though.

Tough call.
 
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HMFIC of this Shit
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I am fine with a 2-day bump rule, that you can bump a post every 2 calendar days, no need to break it down to time.

Clearly, the $100 Full Membership upgrade is a bit too much, and I feel $33 is too little for people who only come here to sell. The trick is finding that happy medium so it's worth the issues that come along with it.

The more people that use the PX the more issues we have, guys complaining ads are not 100%, guys who want us to moderate their sales, and even still the messages we get asking about "Member X" and whether or not he is trustworthy. They want us to help them, but really don't contribute and waste a lot of our time.

The more traffic in the PX the more headaches, we are not here to hand hold your sale.
 

Gunfighter14e2

Rusty Nail
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Jul 9, 2002
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Do I have an FFL Account $250 or does this conflict with the commercial sales people ?
that type of Selling or buying should pay the same freight as those who are telling the truth in the first place. If it were I,... I'd charge those fucks more just because they try to circumvent in the first place. Play by the rules or pay the price,....
 
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Threadcutter308

Outlier
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I am fine with a 2-day bump rule, that you can bump a post every 2 calendar days, no need to break it down to time.

Clearly, the $100 Full Membership upgrade is a bit too much, and I feel $33 is too little for people who only come here to sell. The trick is finding that happy medium so it's worth the issues that come along with it.

The more people that use the PX the more issues we have, guys complaining ads are not 100%, guys who want us to moderate their sales, and even still the messages we get asking about "Member X" and whether or not he is trustworthy. They want us to help them, but really don't contribute and waste a lot of our time.

The more traffic in the PX the more headaches, we are not here to hand hold your sale.
I dunno Frank, it seems like the pro's/con's discussion is getting pretty granular.....Conversely, there are a lot of things that should be taken into consideration. It'd be nice if there was a simple answer, but it doesn't look like it's going to go that way.

You provide a good/service. No one else gives that away for free. You should get paid something for the goods and services that you provide. I suppose, the trick is to find the sweetspot of where/how much and how to charge for it. I think a lot of people lose sight of the fact that this site is probably the majority of your livliehood and it's not a charity.
 
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HMFIC of this Shit
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Ya, the more I think about it,

I am better off opening it up as it was but hammering the few that are abusing it. Rather than try to change things on a larger scale, we can just pick and choose our battles.

I dont have a good answer and I don't like the headaches, but I think the two go hand in hand if I like the increase in traffic I have to suffer more using the PX and just deal with it.

The guys playing fast and loose with the rules, the dealers who act like they had no idea of the commercial sales rules we just take out one at a time and ignore the rest.
 

mcameron

Old Salt
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Nov 17, 2011
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Is there a way you can set a filter to count users posts per month (except in the PX)

And if a persons posts per month drops below 10 or so.... they cannot have access to the PX?
 

hookedonbrass

[ ]
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May 16, 2018
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Is there a way you can set a filter to count users posts per month (except in the PX)

And if a persons posts per month drops below 10 or so.... they cannot have access to the PX?
people will BS the hell out of that.

i watched a guy last week run through the photography sub-forum and comment "nice" on each thread to try and up his post count.
 

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HMFIC of this Shit
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I think I am gonna just go with a straight PX Access Account and not a full membership combined upgrade.

This way we can identify those with PX and not necessarily give them a Full Membership.

Before when you bought access you got a Full membership, not it's just a straight up mercenary account
 
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Waorani

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Despite all the recent discussion, there are still ads being bumped frequently and then there are the thinly veiled bumps posing as answers to PMs, additional info, etc. Locking those threads might be a good first step. Item is still available, findable by search, and PM to seller still works. But it gets the message out to the offenders. If they don't like it, they can always take their stuff to Gunbroker or Ebay.
 

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HMFIC of this Shit
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We'll have to put out a messages discussing the changes,

I am gonna write as much as I can up today and then make the post

Not everyone pays attention so there has to be a grace period on bumps
 

rjacobs

Sergeant
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I am on a few forums where only the original poster can post in a PX post. If you are interested in an item you have to send a PM. That way somebody's buddy cant go bumping their posts to circumvent the 48 hour rule. Anyway to set that up here?
 

Tree

Sergeant of the Hide
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Is it also possible to not have posts from the PX section count towards a users post count? Can't remember who but one user had over 500 post of just PX posts/bumps.
 

deersniper

Truth Teller
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I just want to control the abuse, I don't want to limit it.

The PX does bring in traffic and maybe that is the middle ground I have to find.

When I charged $33 dollars for a PX account it was pretty good, but now at $100 that is meant to make it a bit more serious about just coming here to post an ad.

It may be a case of finding that perfect middle ground, so the scammers will stay away, and yet it brings in a lot of traffic, cause it does bring in traffic.

To be honest, the guys abusing it are the issue, and they could get in trouble over it. If the ATF sees the number of sales you are conducting you can run into an issue as being a dealer without a dealer license. And the ATF does have accounts on here.

I want it be fair, but I don't want to kill the section completely
Perfect opportunity for new badges
"Constitution infringer"
Or
"Tyrant Enforcer"
Or
"Organized Crime Street Muscle"
 
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Lapuapalooza

CALLING ALL
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I don’t know how it works behind the curtain, but how about:

2 day bump rule.

“Tickets/coupons” to post once a month. That way I can decide to list my rifle and handgun in the same post, or wait until March to list my handgun.

If 51% of my post are “for sale in px”, then I’m a commercial account. FFL of No FFL.

Just my .02...
 

Precision Underground

Rifle Gear
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Jun 21, 2017
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I think it’s rewarding being shady if you offer a lower price version of a commercial account. The guys doing this that aren’t “officially” a business aren’t officially a business because they don’t want to pay taxes, just like they don’t want to pay you. Don’t reward them.

I saw a thread the other day where a guy was selling “4 extra proof research barrels”. No one has 4 “extra” proof research barrels. Someone posted feedback and sure enough the “guy” was a gun shop. I see this with scopes too. Guys posting “6 S&B for sale”. I have seen it lately with hog saddles. There is a dude that literally always has a hog saddle or two for sale. Obviously people making money. They are skirting taxes and the cost of doing business here. If it helps I’ll start pressing report every time I see one. Start banning them from the PX and I think within a month or two most will be weeded out.
 

TheGerman

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If you think someone is gaming the system, you can basically impose something on them if they like it or not. You've been able to probably ID quite a few, I know I can find a few without even really looking. Tell them that they are a dealer even if they want to lie about it; you need to buy a dealer/supporter/EE posting account and its X amount or your posting privileges are revoked. If they pay its a win, if they don't like it and leave or get banned, its a win as well. If they don't want to pay, IP ban and watch for new accounts from that IP; or, restrict the amount of ads they can have in the EE at a time to something really non lucrative like 2 per month or whatever.

Up the EE privileges for members to 500 actual contributing posts. You can sneak in 100 if you really want to in the bear pit and bullshit picture threads, but 500 per account requires a bit of time and effort and it would be even more obvious if someone was posting to up post count as well as had 500 posts in regular forums and then the next 500 posts were 95% in the EE. That's a dealer - charge them. Plus, that adds onto the whole process of getting a 'new' dealer account back up if they do get shut down/banned; you now need to make it another 500 posts again before you can even start trying to sell again.

Put a bounty on finding a dealer/seller. Just like AR15 does for copyright infringements. Nothing keeps people away more than the thought that anyone you are doing business with can turn you in and claim some kind of reward. Make the risk vs reward percentage suck as much as you can for them.

Basically I'd look at dealers/sellers that aren't here to contribute but to use the EE with a 'fuck you, pay me' attitude. Either pay or leave, because either way the site wins.
 

rth1800

Member
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I buy a good bit from the PX. Bought a used Manors stock today. Sell a few things. Sold an old Chrony chronograph for 50 bucks last week. Bought a GAP BA last week. I don't think the used stuff I sell would cause anyone to call me a dealer. I do get annoyed looking at new, dealer type stuff from obvious dealers in the PX. If we want new we can just go to MHS or someone and buy it. I do that as well. I post in many areas including the infamous BEAR PIT. I guess what I am saying is I am not sure where you are drawing the line. I don't wish to impose on anyone.
 

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HMFIC of this Shit
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Every single person I contacted today denied being a dealer, even when I screenshots of them saying they were a dealer.

I was told nobody pays retail anymore and most people have some kind of wholesale access

I was told they weren't the dealer, but their friend was, and while they get their scopes at a deal, what is the crime helping their friend sells scopes on the site.

I got a dozen replies that said, while yes I am an FFL everything I have sold ON HERE has been from my personal collection

So basically after all these stand up responses I have determined it not worth my time and I am better off just removing the biggest offenders and adjusting things back.

I changed the "Hessian" account to give you Access but not a true Full membership, that was changed today, I am looking at the cost to Upgrade and have adjusted that down a bit, but I am sure it's still too cost prohibitive. But we'll look at that in a few days.

At the end of the day, it is clearly a lesson in futility with these guys, every single one has an excuse. Even to the point where after I questioned them, I was offered something to contribute but not what I want. Hey, I offered since I was caught, but I am not doing what you think.
 
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MTN

Online Training Member
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Not reading all the posts.. but a multi-tiered approach might work if it could be enforced by the board software.

As an example and the figures are somewhat arbitrary.. $33 = 10 posts/bumps per month, $250 = 100 posts/bumps per month, $500 = x etc..
 

rth1800

Member
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I think a simple approach would work better. Frank knows who he is targeting.
 

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HMFIC of this Shit
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I find I can change your post count and reduce your access to non-PX access.

As I said I have gone as far as I am going with the changes, the only thing I might change is the cost to buy access.

The rest is finished, I would rather tax the offenders by removing their access to PX vs trying to explain to them, this place is not their private pawn shop
 

Shadow knows

Private
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Add a PX counter to your profile like you do posts. Cap it at whatever you want. Reset at then end of the season say thanksgiving.
 

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HMFIC of this Shit
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the problem with certain custom aspects of the site are, with each new upgrade, or even update, you have to put it back in place.

Certain updates strip the custom changes and have to be added back, it's why sometimes we update the site and it's active and other times we update the site and it's shut off for an hour or two. they have to replace the custom coding.

The less I customize in a radical way, the better the software runs over time. part of the problem with the old software was incapability issues. You start stacking on plugins or add-ons and the place because to resist the changes. The server has to access these upgrades in a different way, it's not organic and the place starts to suffer under stress.

As I said, I am finished with it, clearly, it's more important for some to have their personal pawn shop, vs doing what is right. If we see people abusing the place I will just start them over.
 
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Sean the Nailer

Sergeant
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So, am I off my nut, or is there no viability in a "volume limiting" plan? Something such as:

Regular Site member, who're just buying or selling individual items once in a while (like the way it used to be) still free and no charge.

FFL dealers, limited to 1 item per post, 1 post every 2 weeks because they happened to have "an extra one"...

Commercial dealer, free-for-all as deserved and can post as much as they want of items for sale.

and BAN "bumps" outright.

Be a contributing member who doesn't abuse rights, and there's no hindrance. Try to scam the system and fly under the radar, get limited exposure. Want to run a legitimate business, then get 'full abilities' and justifiably so.

Just an idea,,, how does that thing sound to folks?
 

Tucker301

Groundskeeper
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This has been my complaint for years now.
Our handful of true sponsors, Commercial Dealers, have their own sections at the bottom of the main PX page.
They play by the rules. We've relaxed some of the harder rules, or at least I have, and allow them to post in the general sections as long as they post specific items for specific prices.
In other words, "This model scope for this price" is OK, but "We're having a big sale through 2-28" isn't.

Now think about for a minute WHY they want to post in the general sections.
It's obvious. That's where the crowds are.
Look at the post views in Optics for Sale vs the views in CamerLandNY's dedicated section.

When you pick up a magazine (the kind you read), the sponsors' ads are mixed in with content.
When you watch a television program the ads are not stacked up at the end of the show. If they were you wouldn't watch them.

I'm watching a seller right now. Their activity is blatantly abusive of the intent of the policies. They are simply running a storefront for free right around the corner from the other guys who are paying rent, taxes, and utilities.

These are growing pains.
Membership continues to soar here.
The amount of new account approvals we process in a 24 hour period is at times staggering.
I'd love see a head to head in dollars traded between here and Gunbroker.
I have a feeling we're gaining on them at an alarming rate.
Maybe the folks at GB would consider partnering, and co-branding the PX sections under another site altogether?
I don't know the answers. Those are just what popped into my head. I think we've had that discussion before?

What I do know is that a LOT of people are taking advantage, and they are crapping all over the good people who have played it straight from the early days. If we owe anyone anything, we owe those guys an effort to get them into same view rates as the ones who are gaming the system.