The GAP Butthurt thread (formerly 6mm GT)

Jay McLean

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I'm definitely interested. The most helpful comment comes from Sheldon N. I posted it below to save you from having to scroll through strange tiger memes.

Sheldon N.
Seems a little more interesting to me seeing it side by side with Dasher and 6x47. Looks like a decent case design. If i were making the "no snake oil" sales pitch for it, it would be like this...

High quality brass, no necking down, no fire forming, at a price cheaper than 6x47 and much cheaper than Dasher.
Run lower pressure loads at Dasher-ish speeds. 105's at 2975 to 3000. DTAC's at 2875 to 2900. Will give you some operational forgiveness in adverse conditions/rain. Less likely to encounter pressure problems.
Long neck for seating depth flexibility, avoids the neck/shoulder junction donut area.
Longer case = easier feeding than Dasher. Possibly can avoid a mag spacer kit (TBD)
Similar barrel life to Dasher, better than 6x47. (more powder vs longer neck lower pressure = net wash on barrel life)

I'd pitch it not as a "better" Dasher, but rather as an easier more trouble free Dasher. Like the Norma Dasher but slightly better brass and more forgiving. Would make sense for a guy who is getting ramped up in PRS but isn't accustomed to dealing with advance reloading/fireforming/wildcat etc.

But no, I personally have no interest in switching to it.
 

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kthomas

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GAP tends to oversell their cartridges with overly ambitious claims. The 6.5 SAUM was certainly oversold. 3000+ rounds of barrel life and easy on brass - yeah right. People were lucky to get half that barrel life and I know people who torched brass in 1-2x firings. It's an overbored cartridge. Bit of snake oil in the product claims for that cartridge.

Sounds like it could be a great cartridge if all things they state are true, but I have my doubts based on prior history.

I'll stick with my 6BRA for 6mm.
 

kthomas

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@kthomas you never owned the 6.5 gap did you. I am at 2400 rounds. I am up to 6 loadings off my brass. Not sure who you know, but tell them to stop reloading, they are a danger to them selves.
I don't, never appealed to me.

I know plenty of people who do, as well as some top end gunsmiths that speak poorly of it. In fact, one very well thought of gunsmith goes as far as calling that cartridge an "overbored piece of shit".

And that guy who had brass go south in x2 firings - he's a very accomplished shooter with close ties to the AB ELR team. He knows what he's doing, and he wasn't hot rodding the cartridge.
 

kthomas

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I realized a long time ago, people who speak of other people without naming, never trust them. You have a lot of Ghost in your life.
To each their own. I've heard enough first hand bad stories to stay away. I prefer to learn from others mistakes rather than re-learn them myself. It's worked out well for me. Some of my friends on the other hand have made some very costly mistakes in this game.

If it works for you, then great. That's all that really matters at the end of the day. Doesn't matter in that case what many of those around me have experienced.
 
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KWilson

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The case specs suggest it will be accurate but I suspect the trade-off will be barrel life looking at how close it is to the 6x47. Factory brass and dies will be handy though and could see it take off given the work involved in forming Dasher brass but it's not offering a lot of horsepower above and beyond the 6BRA which can comfortably run the 105-108 pills at 2960-2990 without pushing cases hard so I see that as its biggest impediment.
 
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ThePretzel

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I've got a brand new 6BR Krieger barrel waiting to be screwed onto my Impact action when it arrives. If the barrel life claims of 6mmGT lasting longer than a Dasher are true then I'll consider it for a rebarrel. By the time I burn out my 6BR I imagine the GAP shooters (and other competitors trying out 6mmGT) will have had adequate time to burn out a few barrels each and report the true accurate barrel life of the cartridge.
 
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steve123

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GAP tends to oversell their cartridges with overly ambitious claims. The 6.5 SAUM was certainly oversold. 3000+ rounds of barrel life and easy on brass - yeah right. People were lucky to get half that barrel life and I know people who torched brass in 1-2x firings. It's an overbored cartridge. Bit of snake oil in the product claims for that cartridge.

Sounds like it could be a great cartridge if all things they state are true, but I have my doubts based on prior history.

I'll stick with my 6BRA for 6mm.
I think George was at 2000 or so rounds when he setback the barrel on his 6.5 Saum, and was at just over 4000 rounds when he won that bigger two day match, but we are taking his word for it on all this.

I'm not setting mine back because I want a 7.75 twist for the heavy's next time, so I'll be interested to see how many rounds I'll get out of this 8.5 twist. Only at 700 rounds down the tube now so I won't know for years.

7th firing on my Norma brass, it's a lower pressure load with 140's at 3175 fps with 60.1 grains of Retumbo out of a 29" barrel but mine has a longer throat in a long action. That's about equivalent pressure to 58.1 grains of H1000. I believe most 6.5 Saum shooters are around 61.5 grains of H1000 for a 140???

I think where people get in trouble with the 6.5 Saum is trying to get 140's going 3150 fps out of a 24" barrel expecting long barrel life and brass life, this would require a warmer load. Or 130's at 3250 fps.

Also myself with my no turn neck, and my friend with the 6.5-4s reamer with it's turn neck, both of us were having to turn off another .0025" to have .003" neck expansion, otherwise there was almost no neck expansion and both of us were getting pressure signs at first before we thinned the necks. I imagine there were a bunch of 6.5-4s guys having that problem and not realizing it. An off spec reamer, or thick neck brass( Norma), not sure which scenario, would destroy brass quickly if it wasn't dealt with like we did.

But a 140 at 3175 fps is one awesome low recoiling combination in a heavy rifle!

With these newer Co's coming out with stronger Saum brass, I think I'm staying with the chambering. If I can get 2000 rounds out of mine I'll be satisfied.

It's funny how I never could resist pushing my 6x47l! I might have to revisit that someday using a low flame temp powder at lower pressures to see what barrel life I'd get.

Or how that would go with this new 6GAP, you could still get 6mmBR speeds with low pressure.
 

ilmonster

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Maybe I'm missing something, but Hornady's factory loaded 103 gr. ELD-X 6mm CM rounds run right at 3050 fps. What would the benefit be to running the 6GT vs. a 6 Creedmoor? Hodgdon's website says a 6CM will require 42-45 gr. of powder to run north of 3000 fps. Is George suggesting better barrel life than a 6CM due to less powder, or is there some other benefit I'm missing?
 

jinxx4ever

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just put together a 6mm creedmoor and working to get it broke in. Dasher in the works . That's enough for me
 

brianf

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could be a nice round, but energy is energy.

X gr bullet at X FPS takes approx the same amount of powder no matter what the case shape (unless we are talking about old school cylinder stuff from the 1800's)

i think the new cartridge thing is getting to the end, its now up to bullet and powder tech.

only large scale "improvements" we will see going forward maybe something like the 300 PRC getting close to the 300 NM with a smaller action.

maybe making the necks really long if bullet tech can stay on the same trajectory as the last 5-10 years.

but its still approx the same amount of powder for the same performance

we can always hot rod a small cartridge to make it nip at the heels of the next guy up the food chain, push a 30-06 hard and you will get close to 300 wm.
 
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LawnMM

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Maybe I'm missing something, but Hornady's factory loaded 103 gr. ELD-X 6mm CM rounds run right at 3050 fps. What would the benefit be to running the 6GT vs. a 6 Creedmoor? Hodgdon's website says a 6CM will require 42-45 gr. of powder to run north of 3000 fps. Is George suggesting better barrel life than a 6CM due to less powder, or is there some other benefit I'm missing?
You're missing the awesome new cartridge snake oil it comes with
 
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Supersubes

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Maybe I'm missing something, but Hornady's factory loaded 103 gr. ELD-X 6mm CM rounds run right at 3050 fps. What would the benefit be to running the 6GT vs. a 6 Creedmoor? Hodgdon's website says a 6CM will require 42-45 gr. of powder to run north of 3000 fps. Is George suggesting better barrel life than a 6CM due to less powder, or is there some other benefit I'm missing?

The question you should really be asking, is why the little 6mm gay tiger is so fast, with so much less capacity than the creedmoor.

Refer to LawnMM’s post above.
 
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Sheldon N

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Seems a little more interesting to me seeing it side by side with Dasher and 6x47. Looks like a decent case design. If i were making the "no snake oil" sales pitch for it, it would be like this...

High quality brass, no necking down, no fire forming, at a price cheaper than 6x47 and much cheaper than Dasher.
Run lower pressure loads at Dasher-ish speeds. 105's at 2975 to 3000. DTAC's at 2875 to 2900. Will give you some operational forgiveness in adverse conditions/rain. Less likely to encounter pressure problems.
Long neck for seating depth flexibility, avoids the neck/shoulder junction donut area.
Longer case = easier feeding than Dasher. Possibly can avoid a mag spacer kit (TBD)
Similar barrel life to Dasher, better than 6x47. (more powder vs longer neck lower pressure = net wash on barrel life)

I'd pitch it not as a "better" Dasher, but rather as an easier more trouble free Dasher. Like the Norma Dasher but slightly better brass and more forgiving. Would make sense for a guy who is getting ramped up in PRS but isn't accustomed to dealing with advance reloading/fireforming/wildcat etc.

But no, I personally have no interest in switching to it.
 

Long Range 338

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Doesn't GAP bring out a new cartridge pretty much every year that they test during the upcoming PRS season and its always touted to be the answer to every shortcoming of previous cartridges?
Asking a serious question here, not trying to badmouth GAP or their accomplishments. I see that years ago it was the 243 and from there it just keeps going to some new version of an existing cartridge. GAP sells the brass, reamers, and dies... Maybe GAP is just a master of marketing, it seems to be working for them.
 

brianf

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not to pick on GAP:
but as a side note, GAP used to be the talk of the town on this site.
if you did have a GAP on order you werent cool.
What happened?
falling out with Frank etc?
 

Diver160651

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GAP is still cool...

But dang, they have launched so many of the best ever, Revolutionary cartridges like the 4s that was said to be so much better than the 6.5saum, then turned relatively quickly to the 6.5PRC .. At the end of the day, these examples are very close in performance.. not so much revolutionary, but more a tiny evolution..

my 2 cents
 
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Fig

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One question? Was this what George Gardener was shooting at The Open Range Shooter’s Retreat, last year in OK, when he hit 9 of 10 @ 1,500 yards? This was not a mile shoot, mind you, but a regular PRS match. I think the next best on that stage was 3. I hit all around it and never connected. I was squaded behind him, and we kept hearing cheering. Pretty soon everyone stopped shooting and just watched him. Someone said he was shooting a wildcat of his own design. Is this it?

He’s a heck of a good guy, makes really nice rifles, and shoots in a lot of matches. I wonder if any of you calling him a liar in a public forum are going to go up to him and confront him to his face with his “lies”?
 
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Hollywood 6mm

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One question? Was this what George Gardener was shooting at The Open Range Shooter’s Retreat, last year in OK, when he hit 9 of 10 @ 1,500 yards? This was not a mile shoot, mind you, but a regular PRS match. I think the next best on that stage was 3. I hit all around it and never connected. I was squaded behind him, and we kept hearing cheering. Pretty soon everyone stopped shooting and just watched him. Someone said he was shooting a wildcat of his own design. Is this it?

He’s a heck of a good guy, makes really nice rifles, and shoots in a lot of matches. I wonder if any of you calling him a liar in a public forum are going to go up to him and confront him to his face with his “lies”?
I'm pretty sure he was running either a 6.5 SAUM or 6.5 PRC at that match.
 

Diver160651

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One question? Was this what George Gardener was shooting at The Open Range Shooter’s Retreat, last year in OK, when he hit 9 of 10 @ 1,500 yards? This was not a mile shoot, mind you, but a regular PRS match. I think the next best on that stage was 3. I hit all around it and never connected. I was squaded behind him, and we kept hearing cheering. Pretty soon everyone stopped shooting and just watched him. Someone said he was shooting a wildcat of his own design. Is this it?

He’s a heck of a good guy, makes really nice rifles, and shoots in a lot of matches. I wonder if any of you calling him a liar in a public forum are going to go up to him and confront him to his face with his “lies”?
Fig,

George is certainly a great shooter and even an innovator ... 6.5suam - is way better than a 6br at 1500 as is the 4S or 6.5PRC as well as many other distances if min- recoil is not the main driver, but what does that have to do with questioning what cartridge to chase?

I didn't see anyone "bash" him BTW - other than poke fun at the name..
 
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Supersubes

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One question? Was this what George Gardener was shooting at The Open Range Shooter’s Retreat, last year in OK, when he hit 9 of 10 @ 1,500 yards? This was not a mile shoot, mind you, but a regular PRS match. I think the next best on that stage was 3. I hit all around it and never connected. I was squaded behind him, and we kept hearing cheering. Pretty soon everyone stopped shooting and just watched him. Someone said he was shooting a wildcat of his own design. Is this it?

He’s a heck of a good guy, makes really nice rifles, and shoots in a lot of matches. I wonder if any of you calling him a liar in a public forum are going to go up to him and confront him to his face with his “lies”?
Sheesh, who let the grown-up in here?
 

Hollywood 6mm

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Here's my 2 cents: From what I have seen so far from George on FB, this is squarely aimed at the 6BR/BRA/Dasher crowd for PRS matches. I haven't seen anything out of him I would call snake oil, personally, and the points I have seen him talking up are much the same ones others pointed out here - No fireforming, no mag kit nonsense, similar or slightly better performance than a Dasher, and high quality brass right out of the gate. George has been pretty vocal with his critiques of the BR family, and this is supposed to address all of those flaws.

Personally, I will probably be sticking with 6 Creedmoor for a few reasons (Don't want to feed another caliber with Varget, have plenty of brass, want the option for more speed, etc), but I can see where this will appeal to much of the PRS crowd.
 
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brianf

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Same here, I did t mean to poop on him at all.

Better shooter than I will ever be.

Truthfully I think he is ahead of the curve with a smith crossing over to marketing and Ammo, any one can run a lathe but he is working toward a system/one stop shop.
 

hic28

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not to pick on GAP:
but as a side note, GAP used to be the talk of the town on this site.
if you did have a GAP on order you werent cool.
What happened?
falling out with Frank etc?
I have 2 gap rifles, guess I’m still cool.

Just had to poke some fun.
 
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Fig

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Ya know, I could give a fuck how good a marksman he is. He’s a gentleman, and a humble guy despite being “a big deal” in percision rifles. He’s not my friend and doesn’t know me from Aadam. I’ve probably talked to him ten times in my life. His rifles cost too much for the Gnat’s Ass name, but I buy them because I’m always happy with them. I’m willing to overpay. There are plenty of people out there who throw out bullshit opinions and sell substandard rifles for a premium price. Gardener isn’t one of them. He’s one of us, and while I disagree with people all the time I think calling his innovations “Snake oil”, and saying he lies about the specs and what can be expected of them is, to me, over the line.

If you have first person knowledge (own the rifle and think it sucks) fine, but if you’re going to personally bad mouth someone as being a fraud, say it to his face, and not anonymously in a chat room.

I’m not an Innovator or a fast adopter. I’m boring and only can be bothered necking up or down.

Gay Tigre and the memes are very funny. It’s personal attacks that bug me.
 

kthomas

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Ya know, I could give a fuck how good a marksman he is. He’s a gentleman, and a humble guy despite being “a big deal” in percision rifles. He’s not my friend and doesn’t know me from Aadam. I’ve probably talked to him ten times in my life. His rifles cost too much for the Gnat’s Ass name, but I buy them because I’m always happy with them. I’m willing to overpay. There are plenty of people out there who throw out bullshit opinions and sell substandard rifles for a premium price. Gardener isn’t one of them. He’s one of us, and while I disagree with people all the time I think calling his innovations “Snake oil”, and saying he lies about the specs and what can be expected of them is, to me, over the line.

If you have first person knowledge (own the rifle and think it sucks) fine, but if you’re going to personally bad mouth someone as being a fraud, say it to his face, and not anonymously in a chat room.

I’m not an Innovator or a fast adopter. I’m boring and only can be bothered necking up or down.

Gay Tigre and the memes are very funny. It’s personal attacks that bug me.
Uh - no personal attacks in this thread. I haven't seen anyone bring in to question George's character or integrity.

The way the cartridge is being sold is overly optimistic, just like the previous GAP cartridge. Previous history here.

I agree with some other posters here - if it was billed as a 6br variant competitor without all the fuss of a 6br cartridge (FF, mag loading, etc), it would be an easier sell.

Like I said in the other thread, great for us consumers to have more options. It won't replace my 6BRA, but may check all the boxes for other people. Time will tell.
 
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Diver160651

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Sometimes when we go out of our way to prove we’re not a racist, we in fact with that very act, show that we are.

= is = I’m my book, special treatment is not. I am sure nothing said here would offend a great person.

For what it’s worth, the Gay Tiger was funny as shit..
 
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