Thanks PT&G!

bohem

PVA's HMFIC
Jan 6, 2009
7,174
476
83
Southeast, PA
www.patriotvalleyarms.com
#2
Let me preface the following with this statement.

I'm not defending PTG outright as they've cocked up a LOT of stuff for me BUT!

This is likely more the cause of a gunsmith reaming a chamber with a floating holder that wasn't "floating" properly than it was PTG's fault. Typically their reamers are out of spec by a thou or two, not 10 at the web. I've seen this a lot from good shooting barrels that had excessive runout due to one of 3 things:
1) a poorly dialed in bore
2) a rigid holder that wasn't running coaxially to the spindle bore
3) a floating holder that was not floating... you'd be surprised at just how much this happens.
 
Sep 6, 2006
2,009
185
63
Southern California
#4
I’ve actually had the opposite issue with them on two reamers. Both were undersized at the base by a few thousandths. Would just barely work with domestic brass, but no chance with lapua. .008 on the fat side is a lot though.


Is this your personal reamer?
 

RonA

Sergeant
Jul 10, 2011
286
14
18
63
Browns Valley CA
#10
As stated earlier PTG "blows".
I have a dozen or so reamers from them and no problems, but I do use a tail stock and dog when chambering. That being said, I just bought my last PTG item yesterday. JGS didn't pick up so I ordered a .338 Lapua reamer and go gauge. Good price(as usual), 6-8 weeks(not so good for such a common reamer). I paid by credit card and told the customer it would be 6-8 weeks for the tooling. This morning JGS called and said they had the reamer and gauge in stock for about $60 more. I told them I would call back after making sure I could cancel the PTG order. PTG told me there would be a 15% re-stocking fee(ok, I get that, but it still annoys me), and they do not give refunds, only in house credits? So by holding a gun to my wallet, I now will have a PTG reamer and gauge coming(the last item I will ever buy from them), and a JGS reamer on the way to finish the job. Poor business practice for a company that should know better. JGS make better reamers any way so in a way it probably is for the best. Sorry Dave Kiff, but your customer service and policies kind of suck.
 

Xander3Zero

Sergeant of the Hide
Aug 10, 2017
368
94
28
Rhode Island
#12
Lol, I am about to start an online storefront and see if I can make a living by just listing a bunch of products as out of stock (backorder ok!).

When I get orders I'll just let the customer know that it will be about 6-8 years before their backorder is filled, and if they want to cancel I can give them store credit... minus the restocking fee of course!
 
Feb 13, 2017
2,330
1,475
113
Camano Island, Washington
#13
Lol, I am about to start an online storefront and see if I can make a living by just listing a bunch of products as out of stock (backorder ok!).

When I get orders I'll just let the customer know that it will be about 6-8 years before their backorder is filled, and if they want to cancel I can give them store credit... minus the restocking fee of course!
On a similar vein, you could start an Online "Fan Club";

 

RonA

Sergeant
Jul 10, 2011
286
14
18
63
Browns Valley CA
#15
I got a call back from PTG asking if I wanted any special neck of throat configurations. I told them I didn't care what they did, I would not be using it. He told me I could order something else instead if I didn't need the Lapua reamer. I told him I had no interest in ever ordering anything from them again. Just send the reamer as ordered and our business is done. I let 3 other shops know about this and 2 have already had their own issues and are buying elsewhere. I'm going to post it on our facebook page just to let a few more know that the place is having problems. Good customer service and business practices are important to me. I have them, and don't like dealing with companies that don't.
 
Feb 13, 2017
2,330
1,475
113
Camano Island, Washington
#16
I got a call back from PTG asking if I wanted any special neck of throat configurations. I told them I didn't care what they did, I would not be using it. He told me I could order something else instead if I didn't need the Lapua reamer. I told him I had no interest in ever ordering anything from them again. Just send the reamer as ordered and our business is done. I let 3 other shops know about this and 2 have already had their own issues and are buying elsewhere. I'm going to post it on our facebook page just to let a few more know that the place is having problems. Good customer service and business practices are important to me. I have them, and don't like dealing with companies that don't.
If you haven't already, you should contact your credit card company to see if they can/will reverse the charges.

I had a generally similar experience w/PTG a couple of years ago (haven't used them since). Pissed me off bad enough that I sent an e-mail (or letter, can't remember which) to Dave Kiff about my experience. When Dave had first started up w/PTG years ago, he had helped me out on a 30/338 Lapua reamer, his service was quite good. I remembered that and penned my e-mail in the context that I was sad to see his organization deteriorate to where it was and that I truly hoped he could/would turn it around. No response whatsoever. Crickets.
They seem to have grown quite a bit over the years. Maybe they have military/government contracts that have fueled their growth and us civilians just fill up the crumbs of production spots. Maybe we are more of an inconvenience than anything else, I dunno. I Have zero interest in ever doing business with them again.

Conversely, I have had nothing but good experiences with Dave Manson. He's an honest guy and gives you the straight skinny;

https://mansonreamers.com/
 

RonA

Sergeant
Jul 10, 2011
286
14
18
63
Browns Valley CA
#17
If you haven't already, you should contact your credit card company to see if they can/will reverse the charges.

I had a generally similar experience w/PTG a couple of years ago (haven't used them since). Pissed me off bad enough that I sent an e-mail (or letter, can't remember which) to Dave Kiff about my experience. When Dave had first started up w/PTG years ago, he had helped me out on a 30/338 Lapua reamer, his service was quite good. I remembered that and penned my e-mail in the context that I was sad to see his organization deteriorate to where it was and that I truly hoped he could/would turn it around. No response whatsoever. Crickets.
They seem to have grown quite a bit over the years. Maybe they have military/government contracts that have fueled their growth and us civilians just fill up the crumbs of production spots. Maybe we are more of an inconvenience than anything else, I dunno. I Have zero interest in ever doing business with them again.

Conversely, I have had nothing but good experiences with Dave Manson. He's an honest guy and gives you the straight skinny;

https://mansonreamers.com/
I thought about it, but decided not to cancel the charge. Being pissed off is a great way for me to remember PTG. One of my friends mention Manson and quite frankly I was surprised since I was always told to avoid their stuff(this coming from 10 years back or so). Shops change, so I plan on giving them a try at some point. I have always had good luck with JGS, but then I don't do a lot of chambering and only have a few reamers. I will have a brand new PTG .338 reamer for sale in a couple of months :).
 

Xander3Zero

Sergeant of the Hide
Aug 10, 2017
368
94
28
Rhode Island
#18
I may be wrong, but doesn't PTG make one piece bolts for a few of the custom actions out there? I had thought I read somewhere that Stiller uses bolts from PTG and maybe some others as well? If this is true, it could be part of the reason that their service towards non-contract customers has gone to shit.

I definitely won't be buying anything from them given all the terrible stories I've read.
 

Bandit31

Semi - professional Jenga player
Feb 6, 2018
223
40
28
Bakersfield, Ca
#19
I may be wrong, but doesn't PTG make one piece bolts for a few of the custom actions out there? I had thought I read somewhere that Stiller uses bolts from PTG and maybe some others as well? If this is true, it could be part of the reason that their service towards non-contract customers has gone to shit.

I definitely won't be buying anything from them given all the terrible stories I've read.


I don't believe they did in the past but they could be making Stillers bolts now. I know they have replacement bolts labeled for the Stillers but Stiller also makes PTG's B series action which is why they may be that way. If I also recall correctly, there was a shake up at Stiller in the past year to two so maybe there has been some changes. I've also heard their qc has kind of gone down recently also.
 
Feb 13, 2017
2,330
1,475
113
Camano Island, Washington
#20
I thought about it, but decided not to cancel the charge. Being pissed off is a great way for me to remember PTG. One of my friends mention Manson and quite frankly I was surprised since I was always told to avoid their stuff(this coming from 10 years back or so). Shops change, so I plan on giving them a try at some point. I have always had good luck with JGS, but then I don't do a lot of chambering and only have a few reamers. I will have a brand new PTG .338 reamer for sale in a couple of months :).
Yeah, I guess the other thing that bothers me is the lack of contrition or effort to clean things up on Kiff's part. He cannot be unaware of the rep that PTG has and the poor level of C/S. Jesus, if you're a business owner, you understand that's the kiss of death. The apparent lack of interest seems to imply he just doesn't care. I dunno, maybe he doesn't need to. Either way, not someone I'm going to do business with again. It's sad, he did have a great reputation some years ago.
 
Feb 13, 2017
2,330
1,475
113
Camano Island, Washington
#22
On the previous "PTG Sucks!!" thread, an employee joined the thread and attempted to justify many of the problems.
Don't remember her name.
Yeah, I have to respect someone that does make that kind of effort, particularly when you know (or should know) that you are probably treading into a lions den.

In reality, I'd like to see them clean up their act and be more successful. It's just really distressing to see a potentially good company not address problems and suffer from it/them. We, as a shooting community would be stronger if they did get themselves ship shape.
 
Feb 21, 2018
21
7
3
#23
I have a dozen or so reamers from them and no problems, but I do use a tail stock and dog when chambering. That being said, I just bought my last PTG item yesterday. JGS didn't pick up so I ordered a .338 Lapua reamer and go gauge. Good price(as usual), 6-8 weeks(not so good for such a common reamer). I paid by credit card and told the customer it would be 6-8 weeks for the tooling. This morning JGS called and said they had the reamer and gauge in stock for about $60 more. I told them I would call back after making sure I could cancel the PTG order. PTG told me there would be a 15% re-stocking fee(ok, I get that, but it still annoys me), and they do not give refunds, only in house credits? So by holding a gun to my wallet, I now will have a PTG reamer and gauge coming(the last item I will ever buy from them), and a JGS reamer on the way to finish the job. Poor business practice for a company that should know better. JGS make better reamers any way so in a way it probably is for the best. Sorry Dave Kiff, but your customer service and policies kind of suck.
It is too bad that for they way I am chambering, something about JGS reamers doesn't get along with it. PTG reamers cut dead silent and JGS are noisy, almost sounds like they are grinding. They work fine for me with heavy oil on the manual machine but not in
I thought about it, but decided not to cancel the charge. Being pissed off is a great way for me to remember PTG. One of my friends mention Manson and quite frankly I was surprised since I was always told to avoid their stuff(this coming from 10 years back or so). Shops change, so I plan on giving them a try at some point. I have always had good luck with JGS, but then I don't do a lot of chambering and only have a few reamers. I will have a brand new PTG .338 reamer for sale in a couple of months :).
Let me know whet the specs are. I may be interested. I’m about an hour from you.
 
Feb 14, 2017
96
5
8
#24
I stopped buying their stuff long ago, but after spending about 10hrs in the last 2 months fixing F'd up PTG stuff that customers had supplied, I got on the phone with intentions of finding out what the hell their problem was. The farthest I could make it was the production manager, I believe her name was LaRoux. She flat denied that they were having any problems at all. It was rather comical, in a sad kind of way. I've since implemented a complete ban. You want to use something from PTG in your rifle? Find somebody else to build it, it's not worth the headache for me.
 

FUNCTIONAL

Dirty Civilian
Feb 19, 2012
396
35
28
Charlotte, NC
#25
Ordered about $650 in tooling. Only thing out of stock was one set of reamer bushings. 8 weeks later it all shipped minus a go guage that was in stock at the time i ordered. Well i can't do shit without a guage and there was no lead time they could give me. So i payed more and ordered it from grizzly. Called ptg to cancel the backordered guage and they said 15% restocking....on a damn part that they don't even have. Everything i get is fine.....its getting it and dealing with those asshats. I keep coming back for punishment because they have stuff in stock and are cheaper. I need to learn.
 

Rthur

Philomath
Apr 16, 2010
5,859
1,736
113
49
Divernon, Illinios
#26
Had an experience recently with a PT&G go gauge.
Either Lapua or PT&G had a error.
Datum check between the two was .010 or slightly better.
I understand factory brass is always undersized but this seemed excessive.

R
 

Rthur

Philomath
Apr 16, 2010
5,859
1,736
113
49
Divernon, Illinios
#30
Hmm, that’s weird. .338 brass is totally fubar short. My 47 brass has always been really close, like go minus a thou. Curious to know where your issue is.
Bought this lot several years ago, 600 pieces.
As far as my experience with both I'm leaning towards PT&G.
After seeing and hearing the stories it would be par for the course.
Don't have my numbers with me though.

R
 

MarinePMI

Battery Operated Grunt
Jun 3, 2010
1,952
379
83
San Diego, Ca
#31
On the previous "PTG Sucks!!" thread, an employee joined the thread and attempted to justify many of the problems.
Don't remember her name.
Pretty sure that was Kim Cain or Jessica Johnson. I dealt with them during the "Savage Drop-In DBM" debacle a few years ago. That was my last dealing with PTG. Life is too short to put up with that kind of BS.
 

Boltfluter

Gunny Sergeant
Jan 4, 2012
1,848
30
48
57
Haines, Oregon
www.boltfluting.com
#33
Ron A,

It probably shipped faster as I am sure reamer sales are in the toilet. PTG really needs to hire someone that has a clue on how to run a business when you have more than 10 employees. Currently they are clueless. This will be a slow lingering death for what was once a respected company. Burying your head in the sand will not fix the problem.

Paul
 
Likes: Danny1788
Dec 26, 2017
47
1
8
#34
I loved the savage drop in dbm........ Bwaahaahaaa. I honestly felt bad for my customer in a sense when he brought me in his 284 AI with that dbm. I explained to him that in order for me to fit this for him he was going to be spending approx just as much on machine time as he did on the dbm. He was ok with it, it eventually worked out.
 

rookie7

Sergeant
Jan 26, 2009
445
24
18
Georgia
#35
If one of the bigger shops like LRI with state of the art CNC machines could start producing the products that PTG does they could completely take over the rifle market from them.

They would have to provide:

1. Honest and reliable communication
2. Fair business policies minus the stupid restock fee on an imaginary product
3. Quality production
4. Competitive prices
5. Good lead times

If this could happen - goodbye PTG.
 

Rubicon Precision

New Hide Member
Feb 21, 2018
21
7
3
#36
If one of the bigger shops like LRI with state of the art CNC machines could start producing the products that PTG does they could completely take over the rifle market from them.

They would have to provide:

1. Honest and reliable communication
2. Fair business policies minus the stupid restock fee on an imaginary product
3. Quality production
4. Competitive prices
5. Good lead times

If this could happen - goodbye PTG.
I don’t think jumping into tool grinding without the background is something most are willing to do.

I’ve actually had decent luck with PTG minus a few hiccups here and there. There is a company not too far from me that is grinding custom contoured endmills. They said they don’t do many Z axis tools but would consider looking at what I need. I’ve been thinking about bringing a handful of reamers and prints to them and see if they think they could do what I need.
 

Clark

Gunny Sergeant
Jul 4, 2003
2,558
6
38
WA the everblue state
#37
I like PTG products, prices, lead times.... but I always get some ninny on the phone.

McMillan is the worst on the phone.

Manson, Stocky's, and Wyatt are so sharp on the phone, I have play the ninny role:(
 

Ledzep

Chancellor
Jun 9, 2009
1,315
147
63
Black Hills
#39
Know a guy that recently ordered a PTG reamer that was cut straight cylinder from the shoulder diameter back (head dia. = shoulder dia. on the reamer)...

My personal favorite is charging a restocking fee for cancelled items that have not been started/produced yet.
 

gilbh

New Hide Member
Jun 11, 2018
15
0
1
#40
Now you guys got me thinking i purchased a Remington 700 action truing kit from PTG and when i purchased it they told me it was 6 to 10 weeks out so did the action manually then two weeks later the kit shows up. i thought i would check the kit over it all checked out except the tap it was a +.010 kit so when i checked the major diameter on the tap it was only .0087 over size that did not make sense to me because if i turn the barrel tenon .010 over there is no way it will screw into that action because i thought they had a pretty good reputation but i was thinking since i had never used it yet what do i know because i always thought they had a pretty good reputation. now i just received a .338 tactical match reamer i guess i need to do some measuring on it also
 
Feb 21, 2018
21
7
3
#41
Now you guys got me thinking i purchased a Remington 700 action truing kit from PTG and when i purchased it they told me it was 6 to 10 weeks out so did the action manually then two weeks later the kit shows up. i thought i would check the kit over it all checked out except the tap it was a +.010 kit so when i checked the major diameter on the tap it was only .0087 over size that did not make sense to me because if i turn the barrel tenon .010 over there is no way it will screw into that action because i thought they had a pretty good reputation but i was thinking since i had never used it yet what do i know because i always thought they had a pretty good reputation. now i just received a .338 tactical match reamer i guess i need to do some measuring on it also
What’s the pitch diameter of the tap?
 

gilbh

New Hide Member
Jun 11, 2018
15
0
1
#43
16 tpi i think but i do not think i used the pitch gauge on it i just had my micrometer when i checked it
its been about 3 weeks since i checked it but now that i think about it it looked a little fine to me
i still haven't used the kit.
 
May 12, 2018
35
4
8
#44
Know a guy that recently ordered a PTG reamer that was cut straight cylinder from the shoulder diameter back (head dia. = shoulder dia. on the reamer)...

My personal favorite is charging a restocking fee for cancelled items that have not been started/produced yet.

What cartridge was that reamer supposed to be for?
 
May 12, 2018
35
4
8
#45
I like PTG products, prices, lead times.... but I always get some ninny on the phone.

McMillan is the worst on the phone.

Manson, Stocky's, and Wyatt are so sharp on the phone, I have play the ninny role:(
Always measure the first case out of a new chamber! View attachment 6871308
I hope you have something more precise and accurate to measure with than a cheap digital caliper. And with a tapered reamer, ending up with an oversized/undersized chamber isn't automatically the "fault" of the reamer manufacturer. In fact, it almost never is.
 
May 12, 2018
35
4
8
#46
Now you guys got me thinking i purchased a Remington 700 action truing kit from PTG and when i purchased it they told me it was 6 to 10 weeks out so did the action manually then two weeks later the kit shows up. i thought i would check the kit over it all checked out except the tap it was a +.010 kit so when i checked the major diameter on the tap it was only .0087 over size that did not make sense to me because if i turn the barrel tenon .010 over there is no way it will screw into that action because i thought they had a pretty good reputation but i was thinking since i had never used it yet what do i know because i always thought they had a pretty good reputation. now i just received a .338 tactical match reamer i guess i need to do some measuring on it also
A cutting tool ALWAYS cuts somewhat LARGER than its measured dimension because cutting is "peeling" process. And proper thread "engagement" requires CLEARANCE on both sides of both of the "continuous wedges" that threads are. Tight threads tend to screw together and lock in place because like metals always gall. Even using a lubricant of some kind can create a hydraulic lock that will lead to damaged/destroyed threads upon disassembly. 70% "thread engagement" is pretty much standard throughout industry at the maximum and ROLLED threads that are properly formed (there should never be ANY sharp edge in a properly formed thread or anywhere else maximum strength is required because sharp edges are where stress risers are located and where fractures begin) throughout the profile have been "standard" for quite a few decades now when it comes to "premium" fasteners. The only cut threads you find in "industrial" fasteners are in el cheapo "ready thread" that has no "grade" or "class of fit" and even that stuff is cut with a DIE rather than "single-point cutting". And if you just want to "clean up" a thread you NEVER use a tap or die or "cut" it with anything. You CHASE it with a made for purpose thread chasers because there is no way to "improve" or "repair" a thread by removing material from it . Go start measuring QUALITY taps and see how many of them have "major diameters" that measure dead-on to the "specifications" for that thread diameter/pitch.
 
May 12, 2018
35
4
8
#47
16 tpi i think but i do not think i used the pitch gauge on it i just had my micrometer when i checked it
its been about 3 weeks since i checked it but now that i think about it it looked a little fine to me
Pitch gauges are only "accurate" for measuring "pitch" when the thread is properly formed to begin with. And that doesn't mean the thread pitch gauge and thread itself perfectly "match".
 

gilbh

New Hide Member
Jun 11, 2018
15
0
1
#49
Pitch gauges are only "accurate" for measuring "pitch" when the thread is properly formed to begin with. And that doesn't mean the thread pitch g
Pitch gauges are only "accurate" for measuring "pitch" when the thread is properly formed to begin with. And that doesn't mean the thread pitch gauge and thread itself perfectly "match".
That is true but they work good for just a quick check on threads per inch without using wires i didn`t break out the wires
 
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