Tactical Class - Why?

Luvman

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So what's the point of suggesting a rule that isn't going to be enforced?
Because those rules changes would tighten up the rules to keep them in line with what a “tactical” rifle. It would also level the field for guys shooting their issued rifle. They wouldn’t be competing against 30+ lbs rifles with 30” barrels.
 

D_TROS

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As the reigning TAC Class champion, I do it for several reasons.

2018 PRS FINALE 2.jpg

1 - Laughing at my friends when I beat em with a 308
2 - I want to be the first to win a 2 day match with a 308
3 - I do it for the trophies. Suck it Trebec.
3a - I do it cause I got sick of shooters not in the top 50 bragging about killing it and winning a trophy
4 - I don't care about the prize table. Every time ive been picked to go up ahead of my placement, Ive given my pick to an RO.
5 - Its substantially harder. Even though I have only finished out of the top 20 two time in nearly 10 tac matches (both times shooting factory ammo that shot horrible groups), and am currently the only tac member to double trophy (4th in WA PRS match) I got bored/irritated how shooting sports are no longer individual. The strategery and wind sharing is the main reason I am not defending my title and am not a member of either PRS or NRL and am not qualifying for the finale for the first time since the inception of both. Team matches or Tac class is the only fun thing to do right now and this year I didn't care to fit 3 matches in sched.

Soooo...cancel it? When we are trying to grow? Dumb. The TAC class finale had a very competitive finale last year with several of us beating up to 50 of the "top" 150 invite shooters at the finale.

Only good post here LawnMM is shooters not even placing in the top 50 bragging up their trophy. That's annoying, but if you don't like it, start shooting the class and show em how you do!!


Regards
DT
 

Sierra770

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As the reigning TAC Class champion, I do it for several reasons.

View attachment 7161108

1 - Laughing at my friends when I beat em with a 308
2 - I want to be the first to win a 2 day match with a 308
3 - I do it for the trophies. Suck it Trebec.
3a - I do it cause I got sick of shooters not in the top 50 bragging about killing it and winning a trophy
4 - I don't care about the prize table. Every time ive been picked to go up ahead of my placement, Ive given my pick to an RO.
5 - Its substantially harder. Even though I have only finished out of the top 20 two time in nearly 10 tac matches (both times shooting factory ammo that shot horrible groups), and am currently the only tac member to double trophy (4th in WA PRS match) I got bored/irritated how shooting sports are no longer individual. The strategery and wind sharing is the main reason I am not defending my title and am not a member of either PRS or NRL and am not qualifying for the finale for the first time since the inception of both. Team matches or Tac class is the only fun thing to do right now and this year I didn't care to fit 3 matches in sched.

Soooo...cancel it? When we are trying to grow? Dumb. The TAC class finale had a very competitive finale last year with several of us beating up to 50 of the "top" 150 invite shooters at the finale.

Only good post here LawnMM is shooters not even placing in the top 50 bragging up their trophy. That's annoying, but if you don't like it, start shooting the class and show em how you do!!


Regards
DT
I came for the photo, stayed for the post. There is wisdom in what’s written here.
 
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Sierra770

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Because those rules changes would tighten up the rules to keep them in line with what a “tactical” rifle. It would also level the field for guys shooting their issued rifle. They wouldn’t be competing against 30+ lbs rifles with 30” barrels.
Who is gonna verify it’s their issued rifle? What if a department or agency procures one of those 30 pound/30 inch rifles? Agencies that support competition based training will have an edge.
 

Hollywood 6mm

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Because those rules changes would tighten up the rules to keep them in line with what a “tactical” rifle. It would also level the field for guys shooting their issued rifle. They wouldn’t be competing against 30+ lbs rifles with 30” barrels.
I only know of one guy running a 30# rifle (or anything even close to it) in Tac, and I can't think of anyone running a 30" barrel thanks to the speed and bullet weight restrictions.
 

Luvman

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Who is gonna verify it’s their issued rifle? What if a department or agency procures one of those 30 pound/30 inch rifles? Agencies that support competition based training will have an edge.
I never said anything about Tac having to be an issued rifle.

I mentioned earlier in the post about the bullet weight and speed rule for tac class. My understanding is those rules are there to limit long loaded hot rod hand loads. The spirit of the rule as I understand it is to keep things close to factory ammo. I also suggested adding some rules to keep with the spirit of a tactical rifle.

I’m curious as to why would any agency even think about issuing a Short action rifle with a 30” barrel. Wasn’t the desired rifle weight for the ASR for Socom around 17lbs before optics?

For the record I don’t have a dog in this fight as I’m not a member of PRS or NRL. I was just piling on the ridiculous comment about doing away with Tac class completely.

As I stated earlier in this thread I’m the type of shooter PRS should be looking to attract. I’m currently shooting a .308. I’m looking to get better with my rifle. Shooting on the clock and in odd positions that matches force you to shoot from are a good training tool.

Reading all the drama online and noticing the gaming (even at small club matches) is a big turn off.
 

Sierra770

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No agency would...for duty use. ;)

You are correct. You are the type of shooter that the PRS would like to attract and production and tactical are great places to start, learn and to a degree stay out of the arms race while you get a feel for whether or not this is something you want to continue doing for the long haul. You can be competitive with factory ammo in Tactical. As stated earlier, there seems to be this myth that all Tac Class shooter are running their .308s at 2799fps and the .223s are a 2999fps. Factory 175s out of a 26 inch barrel typically get you into the low to mid 2700s.
 

Hollywood 6mm

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I never said anything about Tac having to be an issued rifle.

I mentioned earlier in the post about the bullet weight and speed rule for tac class. My understanding is those rules are there to limit long loaded hot rod hand loads. The spirit of the rule as I understand it is to keep things close to factory ammo. I also suggested adding some rules to keep with the spirit of a tactical rifle.

I’m curious as to why would any agency even think about issuing a Short action rifle with a 30” barrel. Wasn’t the desired rifle weight for the ASR for Socom around 17lbs before optics?

For the record I don’t have a dog in this fight as I’m not a member of PRS or NRL. I was just piling on the ridiculous comment about doing away with Tac class completely.

As I stated earlier in this thread I’m the type of shooter PRS should be looking to attract. I’m currently shooting a .308. I’m looking to get better with my rifle. Shooting on the clock and in odd positions that matches force you to shoot from are a good training tool.

Reading all the drama online and noticing the gaming (even at small club matches) is a big turn off.
I go to a pretty healthy amount of matches - both as a shooter and as an RO. I've shot 6 this year already, plus RO'd one, and have two more matches to RO this month. In my experience, the drama surrounding gaming that happens on places like here and FB is pretty over-blown. It does happen, but it's nowhere near as rampant as people like to make it sound.

The majority of the tac-class rifles I have seen have been in the same 17-22ish pound range as most people's open guns. Buck Holly runs one that's just shy of 30#, but he is definitely the exception, not the rule. Charles Roberts (one of the current 300 point Tac shooters) runs factory ammo in a rifle that only weighs around 15# - and he's obviously had no issues with it. Hell, he finished 44th out of 250+ shooters at K&M this spring running that 308, and made it look easy (we were squadded together).

Running a rifle like you describe is not going to hold you, or anyone else, back one iota if you want to shoot Tac. Who the hell cares that Buck runs a 30# rifle when you can still beat him with a 15# gun - assuming you have the skills to do it?
 

Hollywood 6mm

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No agency would...for duty use. ;)

You are correct you are the type of shooter that the PRS would like to attract and production and tactical are great places to start, learn and to a degree stay out of the arms race while you get a feel for whether or not this is something you want to continue doing for the long haul. You can be competitive with factory ammo in Tactical. As stated earlier, there seems to be this myth that all Tac Class shooter are running their .308s at 2799fps and the .223s are a 2999fps. Factory 175s out of a 26 inch barrel typically get you into the low to mid 2700s.
Charles Roberts has been beating ass with a 308 running factory Hornady 168gr Match ammo. At the spring K&M match he was shooting ammo he bought from freakin' Bass Pro on the way to Tennessee.
 

Sierra770

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Charles Roberts has been beating ass with a 308 running factory Hornady 168gr Match ammo. At the spring K&M match he was shooting ammo he bought from freakin' Bass Pro on the way to Tennessee.
Exactly. The guy can shoot.

I have run Factory Gorilla 175 TMK ammo in a pinch at 2735fps and my misses were because of yours truly.
 

lash

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I go to a pretty healthy amount of matches - both as a shooter and as an RO. I've shot 6 this year already, plus RO'd one, and have two more matches to RO this month. In my experience, the drama surrounding gaming that happens on places like here and FB is pretty over-blown. It does happen, but it's nowhere near as rampant as people like to make it sound.

The majority of the tac-class rifles I have seen have been in the same 17-22ish pound range as most people's open guns. Buck Holly runs one that's just shy of 30#, but he is definitely the exception, not the rule. Charles Roberts (one of the current 300 point Tac shooters) runs factory ammo in a rifle that only weighs around 15# - and he's obviously had no issues with it. Hell, he finished 44th out of 250+ shooters at K&M this spring running that 308, and made it look easy (we were squadded together).

Running a rifle like you describe is not going to hold you, or anyone else, back one iota if you want to shoot Tac. Who the hell cares that Buck runs a 30# rifle when you can still beat him with a 15# gun - assuming you have the skills to do it?
This is true. The internet amplifies the level of drama from the reality. Here in our local matches, most come to do just what you would expect; shoot to work on skills and throw in some competitive spirit and fun to boot. Try it, you'll like it!

We have cookies!
 

Tx_Aggie

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I go to a pretty healthy amount of matches - both as a shooter and as an RO. I've shot 6 this year already, plus RO'd one, and have two more matches to RO this month. In my experience, the drama surrounding gaming that happens on places like here and FB is pretty over-blown. It does happen, but it's nowhere near as rampant as people like to make it sound.
Agreed. The part about drama being overblown cannot be repeated enough.
 
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Sierra770

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Hmmmmmm Wonder where I heard that before

View attachment 7169658
Meh. Enforcing that will be tough. Departments that support competition based training will buy whatever and “issue” whatever so their officers are competitive. There is no standard in some departments let alone across the country. Some departments and units issue 6.5cm and .260 as well.
 

Sierra770

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I don't usually agree with Jake but he is 100% correct:

View attachment 7169663
He is not saying anything that’s wrong necessarily but limiting the Division to TAC/Mil-LEO will kill the Division. I can’t speak for MIL, but there are a ton of reasons why that wouldn’t work for LEO. Not every LEO that shoots is on a SWAT Team or is a Sniper with an issued rifle. Many departments don’t have the ammo budget to support an officer hitting multiple matches a year.
As I said, Jake isn’t wrong in his view but those suggestions may not be the answer and certainly isn’t what’s best for the Division.
 
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Luvman

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I’d like to see some changes to Tac class to level the field. I would limit max rifle weight to 20lbs, limit max barrel length to 26”, limit minimum trigger weight to 2.5lbs, and allow bullets up to 185gr for .308.
I don’t really agree will the whole issued rifle thing. These rule changes would be in the spirit of the issued rifle and factory ish ammo.
 

Sierra770

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Well, the whole original intent was work rifles. 🤷‍♂️
You may be correct but that was crafted at a time before other calibers have made their way in to the issues rifle world. Each year .260 and 6.5cm chip away at the .308/.223 tactical market share. Perhaps it should be the Tactical Legacy Division.

I guess they could just do away with it and let the tactical division be only combat arms mil guys and SWAT Snipers with issued rifles, but I am of the opinion that the division dies.
 

Rob01

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Well, the whole original intent was work rifles. 🤷‍♂️
Whole? Nope. Might have been one of the thoughts but more for people who like to keep shooting their .308s and still be able to be be competitive with like shooters and not have to go against open shooters with 6 and 6.5s etc. If it was the whole reason it would have been written like that. It wasn't.
 

Dthomas3523

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He is not saying anything that’s wrong necessarily but limiting the Division to TAC/Mil-LEO will kill the Division. I can’t speak for MIL, but there are a ton of reasons why that wouldn’t work for LEO. Not every LEO that shoots is on a SWAT Team or is a Sniper with an issued rifle. Many departments don’t have the ammo budget to support an officer hitting multiple matches a year.
As I said, Jake isn’t wrong in his view but those suggestions may not be the answer and certainly isn’t what’s best for the Division.
Kill what division exactly? There’s only 37 guys in tac class.
 
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Dthomas3523

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Whole? Nope. Might have been one of the thoughts but more for people who like to keep shooting their .308s and still be able to be be competitive with like shooters and not have to go against open shooters with 6 and 6.5s etc. If it was the whole reason it would have been written like that. It wasn't.
The original rules specifically said it.....

They didn’t limit it to work rifles, but mentioned the intent.
 

Sierra770

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I don’t really agree will the whole issued rifle thing. These rule changes would be in the spirit of the issued rifle and factory ish ammo.
Sub 2800 is factory ammo-ish. Nexus/Gorilla and others produce mid 2700 out of 26-28 inch barrels.
 

Sierra770

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Kill what division exactly? There’s only 37 guys in tac class.
I know.... you don’t have to rub it in. Maybe deathblow to the tactical division was the right phrase.

But to that point, there seems to be a lot of drama for 37 dudes and a few non-PRS guys that don’t win much and like the .308 and it’s legacy in the PRS. Pretty sure a majority of the guys showing up in South Texas in early 2000s were slinging .308 175smks
 

Rob01

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The original rules specifically said it.....

They didn’t limit it to work rifles, but mentioned the intent.
So? It didn't say it was only for them. Just that they could be used. Again it would have said only them if it was meant to be that way. It wasn't and isn't.
 

Dthomas3523

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You may be correct but that was crafted at a time before other calibers have made their way in to the issues rifle world. Each year .260 and 6.5cm chip away at the .308/.223 tactical market share. Perhaps it should be the Tactical Legacy Division.

I guess they could just do away with it and let the tactical division be only combat arms mil guys and SWAT Snipers with issued rifles, but I am of the opinion that the division dies.
Just let .308 die a rightful death. It’s an old round and it’s all but done. Just like the 30-06 before the .308. It’s still not a bad round, but it’s old news, unfortunately.

Seriously, how many people would PRS lose if they didn’t have a tac class? Almost no one would stop shooting. They’d either shoot their 6.5/6 or continue shooting their .308/.223
 

Dthomas3523

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So? It didn't say it was only for them. Just that they could be used. Again it would have said only them if it was meant to be that way. It wasn't and isn't.
So? Lol, it literally spelled out the entire intent of the division.....and your argument is that it wasn’t the intent of the division?? It literally used the word “intention.”

Those rules were written for a hobby and no one expected guys to game the shit out of it.
 

Dthomas3523

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Tac class was/is intended mainly for duty or duty like weapons to give mil/Leo a division in which to train via competition.

Others were/are allowed as to promote the division and act in accordance with the intent. A few people have decided the game the shit out of the division and now it’s a joke.

So, people are suggesting either get the gamers out, or restrict the division. My vote goes to getting rid of the dummies. But no one ever takes that route. They will restrict it, or leave it be.
 

Rob01

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If no one expected that then no one is a fucking idiot who had never been around any sport ever. Lol

I find it funny that people have such heartburn over something that doesn't effect them. Don't like Tac? Don't shoot it. It being there or not doesn't effect the match.
 

Sierra770

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If no one expected that then no one is a fucking idiot who had never been around any sport ever. Lol

I find it funny that people have such heartburn over something that doesn't effect them. Don't like Tac? Don't shoot it. It being there or not doesn't effect the match.
I party like this guy parties! Don’t like Miller Lite? Don’t drink Miller Lite.
 

M8541Reaper

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-Down with Tac class!
-There’s only like 37 people in that division.
-.308 is dead? Down with Tac class!

...if the division barely has anyone in it, and you don’t shoot in it, then who cares if it remains. Let those that want to run Tac class run in it. (Not directed at anyone by saying “you” just being general)

Unless you compete in Tac Class, then what does any of it matter? Like women in ranger school. Unless you’re tabbed, you don’t get to have an opinion on it. So unless you compete in it, why do you care what goes on in it?

Let the Tac shooters decide how the standards should be dictated for the division they compete in. Should it be factory ammo, as that’s what Mil/LE shoot? Sure. There are too many variables in terms of rifle specs between departments so a set limit may limit some smaller/non-typical dept personnel. Shit, limit it to 77, 168, or 175gr. If you can’t run those weights like your life depends on it, you don’t need to be in that billet. But, that isn’t listed in the rules. Competitors in that division, if they don’t agree with the current standards, should push for a change. Otherwise, let 308/556 dudes play the game their way.

It’s just a game. You aren’t shooting for blood so what does it matter?
 

Sierra770

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lol
-Down with Tac class!
-There’s only like 37 people in that division.
-.308 is dead? Down with Tac class!

...if the division barely has anyone in it, and you don’t shoot in it, then who cares if it remains. Let those that want to run Tac class run in it. (Not directed at anyone by saying “you” just being general)

Unless you compete in Tac Class, then what does any of it matter? Like women in ranger school. Unless you’re tabbed, you don’t get to have an opinion on it. So unless you compete in it, why do you care what goes on in it?

Let the Tac shooters decide how the standards should be dictated for the division they compete in. Should it be factory ammo, as that’s what Mil/LE shoot? Sure. There are too many variables in terms of rifle specs between departments so a set limit may limit some smaller/non-typical dept personnel. Shit, limit it to 77, 168, or 175gr. If you can’t run those weights like your life depends on it, you don’t need to be in that billet. But, that isn’t listed in the rules. Competitors in that division, if they don’t agree with the current standards, should push for a change. Otherwise, let 308/556 dudes play the game their way.

It’s just a game. You aren’t shooting for blood so what does it matter?
Clearly, this guy is a speech writer for some famous statesman! Well said.
 
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ballison

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If no one expected that then no one is a fucking idiot who had never been around any sport ever. Lol

I find it funny that people have such heartburn over something that doesn't effect them. Don't like Tac? Don't shoot it. It being there or not doesn't effect the match.
From the little time I spend on this site, my estimate would be that 95% of the people that bitch about PRS have never even shot a PRS match. Or even a 1-day match for that matter. But they sure as hell know how to work a keyboard!
 

Sierra770

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From the little time I spend on this site, my estimate would be that 95% of the people that bitch about PRS have never even shot a PRS match. Or even a 1-day match for that matter. But they sure as hell know how to work a keyboard!
Agreed, and they sure as hell love to compare PRS to their hobby of choice whether it be the one USPSA match they shot 10 years ago or their feline grooming club.
 
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M8541Reaper

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From the little time I spend on this site, my estimate would be that 95% of the people that bitch about PRS have never even shot a PRS match. Or even a 1-day match for that matter. But they sure as hell know how to work a keyboard!
And 95% of people who throw around the fact that they “compete” and work it into every conversation or while at the range, have shit fundamentals and/or can’t read wind so they just lob rounds at targets until they hit something. lol then you see what happens here a lot with dudes passing on bad advice that they “got from their buddy who competes/was a sniper.”
 

NovaHunter

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Just let .308 die a rightful death. It’s an old round and it’s all but done. Just like the 30-06 before the .308. It’s still not a bad round, but it’s old news, unfortunately.

Seriously, how many people would PRS lose if they didn’t have a tac class? Almost no one would stop shooting. They’d either shoot their 6.5/6 or continue shooting their .308/.223
We could always add an "early 20th century " Class. 30-06, M1 Garand or Springfield 'O3 only :)
 
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NovaHunter

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Yeah but too difficult to add weight kits to those so prolly a no go. Although it might garner more than 37 people in that Division.
I'm sure guys would figure out ways to add weight kits, Arca rails, and all the other stuff hanging off rifles now adays.
 

Skunk

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After being gone from the "sport" of shooting for some years and now hearing there is a Tactical class, I'm thinking of coming back once or twice a year. Not to be competitive, or for the trophies, or the prizes (why people agonize over this is beyond me; if you want that item, skip a match or two any use your travel/entry money to fucking buy it!), but because now I know there's a place to beat up on my buddies who also like shooting slow, fat boolits. Sierra770 will probably smoke me with his 26", suppressed, mag fed chassis rifle. I'll still laugh and call him names when I fire a round and my unthreaded antique booms with the sound of testosterone instead of a flaccid goat fart.

The last match I shot was the PRS Finale at K&M when it was still in Baker, FL. I witnessed some turd arguing with Mike Rogan about whether or not he'd hit a target at about 600 yards. Mike was on an 80mm Swarovski and was silent after the shot broke. Shooter bowed up acting like a 40 yr old 2nd grader. Swarovski with no recoil vs. a rifle scope full of flyswatter.... Get the fuck outta here. Disappointing to say the least. If that stuff has gotten better, I'm glad.

When I started in this stuff, Varget and 175SMK's were the standard. Rifles Only was the place to be. Many shooter's had never seen a Schmidt Bender....

I remember when Rob01 started shooting .243! We ribbed him about shooting a windcheater with unfair advantage. He was fun to watch shooting his laser beam and mopped up a lot of us with it. Nobody cared. Rob had fun and we were happy he was happy. We all had a good time shooting and going to The Palace at night.

Nobody bitched and whined on the range or here on the Hide. The good old days...
 
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LawnMM

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You guys make me laugh with this. Rob has been around long enough to remember when MIL/LE was just that. Whatever rifle you want and you're in a division that includes MIL/LE people only.

This tac class shit has only been around a few years and now people want to rewrite the rules because people are gaming tac class when tac class has nothing to do with MIL/LE.

Don't agree? I know plenty of people shooting tac that aren't MIL or LE. They ain't using 'issued rifles' either which is a stupid fucking argument.

Not everyone in MIL or LE is a sniper or issued a rifle. That class used to break those guys into their own division to give the 'good guys' a nod for a good performance with whatever rifle they showed up with.

Then PRS comes along and dreams up tac class which gets comingled with MIL/LE and perverts the whole thing.

I find this shit amusing as hell because there's always a shit fit when an active duty guy or a cop gets a nod for anything over somebody else. They got to walk the table before their turn in the field, waaaah.

Why isn't anybody bitching about top lady? Why does a set of tits get you a walk at the table ahead of somebody who placed higher than you but happens to be a man?

It's the same argument.

Frankly the solution is simple, trophy for top 'whatever' division winners and go to the stupid prize table according to where you placed in the field of competitors. Or better yet, raffle the table or get rid of it altogether the bullshit surrounding the prize table over the last ten years is retarded.
 

M8541Reaper

Super Boot
Belligerents
Why isn't anybody bitching about top lady? Why does a set of tits get you a walk at the table ahead of somebody who placed higher than you but happens to be a man?
To be fair, a lot of dudes out there are also rocking a set of tits. Maybe that’s why they are so angry about something that doesn’t effect them at all.
 
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Sierra770

Sergeant of the Hide
Belligerents
Nov 2, 2013
450
170
49
Atlanta, GA
The prize table walk has almost become a participation trophy ceremony of sorts. The guy that finishes 70th in open can go home a prize winner. And as pointed out, at many matches, the Top Tac is the only one who cuts the line.