Subsonics - All Calibers

Greg Langelius *

Resident Elder Fart
Aug 10, 2001
5,380
660
113
Arizona, good place for me...
#2
Re: Loads fo Subsonics- All Cals

I have long believed that the 7.62x39 was the ideal case to build a subsonic upon.

Now, the current issue (March, 2008) of G&A has an article on Extreme Shock brand ammo, and on P52 there is a photo of their 7.62x39 200gr SW RN load specifically crafted for suppressed rifles. The caption describes it as both accurate and hard hitting.

Greg
 
May 5, 2006
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#3
Re: Loads fo Subsonics- All Cals

308 Loads

16" Krieger 1/10

220 Hornady RNSP
10.7 gr of Trail boss
1040 fps
mag primers, win cases
3/4-1" groups at 100
not temp sensitive or powder position sensitive
slightly louder than loads with Green dot or other pistol powders, but more reliable. Add water and it's super quiet

10" Shillen 1/8 --pistol
240 SMK
15.7 IMR SR 4759
Win cases and WLRM primers
1" group at 100
1060 fps
very consistent, not temp or position sensitive

50 Alaskan Loads

16" Shillen 1/10
750 AMAX
34 gr of RE7
1050 fps
1 huge ragged hole at 100
not temp or position sensitive
haven't shot it with the can yet
KICKS LIKE A DAMN MULE, worse than my benelli M1 with 3" steel loads
 
Jun 11, 2002
21
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TN
home.comcast.net
#4
Re: Loads fo Subsonics- All Cals

.308 Win 22" bbl, Jet Suppressor

Lapua case with flash holes drilled out to 9/64".

200 gr Lapua Subsonic, 8.2 gr Red Dot, WLRM, 2.20" O2H
950 fps @ 90F

200 gr Lapua Subsonic, 10.0 gr Trail Boss, WLRM, 2.20" O2H
967 fps @ 70F

Come-ups
100 yds, 4.2 mil
200 yds, 9.2 mil
280 yds, 14.2 mil
 

Ishallbie O'Cullkillin

Central Coastranger
Nov 18, 2007
445
0
0
50
Oregon
#5
Re: Loads fo Subsonics- All Cals

.300 Fireball 16" carbine AR15
Rem .223 cases cut & necked down to .308
CCI 450's 8.5gr Alliant 2400
220 smk @ 940 fps 38deg. F

Ran same bullet w/8.8 alliant 2400 & stayed subsonic, but it was to dark to chrono. These loads will cycle.

 
Feb 15, 2006
268
0
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Louisiana
#6
Re: Loads fo Subsonics- All Cals

.308 24" bbl 1/11 twist w/ SWR Omega suppressor.

Hornady 180 RN
Federal brass
Fed 210 primer
8.6gr vv N320
2.635" OAL
Avg vel=1022fps @ 48*F

 
Mar 10, 2005
814
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0
48
Oh here and there
#7
Re: Loads fo Subsonics- All Cals

1. AWS, 16" 1/9",w/Sound Tech 20" Integral AWS Suppressor installed, AI 30mm/28MOA scope mount w/ Leupold MK4 4.5-14x50mm:
Case: Federal Gold Medal
Primer: CCI 200 Large Rifle
Powder: IMR Trail Boss
Bullet: Lapua 200gr. Sub-Sonic B416
Starting Load: 9.6gr (985 fps average)
Work Up: loaded to 10.2 (1032 fps average)
Accuracy Load: TBD, so far most producing Sub-MOA (still have to work with the exacts on this one, the Remy's below have taken lots of time and work due to customer request)

2. Remington M700, 16" 1/10", War Tech Tensioned Barrel System w/ST Black Star 8" installed, H&S 5R stock and bottom metal, Leupold MK4 1-piece base, Leupold MK4 1" Medium alloy rings, Bushnell 3200 10x40:
Case: Federal Gold Medal
Primer: CCI 200 Large Rifle
Powder: IMR Trail Boss
Bullet: Sierra 170gr (30-30) bullet .308 dia. #2010
Starting Load: 9.0gr (980 fps average)
Work Up: loaded to 9.8 (1017 fps average)
Accuracy Load: so far most producing Sub-MOA
Basic Dope:
0'd @ 50yd
75 - 2.25MOA
100 - 4.5MOA
125 - 7.0MOA
150 - 9.5MOA
Note: this is a fun target load that is less expensive and @ 200yds has been a killer on 8oz. water bottles. this is also a load that has been proven lethal to 102yds for the average Whitetail or rather large gray squirells that are considered armed and dangerous! Will update with more results with better weather conditions which will permit Chrony and groups, stay tuned.
 

BDOG

Private
Feb 12, 2008
12
0
0
CA
#9
Re: Loads fo Subsonics- All Cals

Does anyone have a reduced load for the 243 ?. I have been waiting for this one for some time for squirrels.
Thanks
 

Luke

Sergeant
May 29, 2002
926
41
28
Colorado
#10
Re: Loads fo Subsonics- All Cals

Found this deep in the old threads of the forum:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Ok.... My Shooting Chrono (X-Mas Present) was given to me EARLY.

I went to the range today to get FPS calculations on my rounds WITH the Suppressor.

Rifle:

Rem 700 PSS (FACTORY) .308
Threaded 5/8 X 24 w/ VORTEX Hider
Stock: BELL/CARLSON "Tactical Adj"


Scope: Nikon Tact. 4-16-50mm MILDOT.
Badger Base 20 MOA
Warne Tact Rings


SUPPRESSOR Info:
SAS .308 supressor from Oregon Research Labs. **I am VERY happy with this. I have USED SEVERAL manufactures cans and THIS one is a KEEPER**

Load DATA:

Lake City Brass (resized and cleaned)
BERGER 155 BT MATCH
TRAIL BOSS Powder
WLR Primers

Ok... Started with 2 Loads

(10) w/ 10 grns OAL = 2.8

(10) w/ 10.5 grns OAL = 2.8

10 grns averaged at 1055 fps

10.5 grns averaged at 1080 fps

10.5 Was VERY accurate even DINGING the 200 yard Steel target.

** Rifle was sighted in at 100 yards using Black Hills 175 BTHP Match Ammo.

With the SUPPRESSOR attached and 10.5 grn load I was EXACTLY 2 MILS low at 50 yards.

and.... 5 MILS low at 100 yards.

When i say ACCURATE as long as I held the mils it WOULD ONE HOLE the group. VERY clean hole no tumbling or unstableness shown AT ALL.

I was VERY impressed and will be loading a FEW hundred to put up and carry.

All in all i fired approximately 80 rounds today and was VERY impressed.

OK !!!!! How loud was it????????

You wont believe me when i tell you the LOUDEST part was the FIRING PIN DROPPING. No ear protection, it was QUIETER than snapping your fingers. I AM HAPPY !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


EDITED TO ADD: I want to say THANK YOU to JOHN WHIDDON at Whiddon Guns in Nashville GA. He was the one that turned me on to this load and got me interested in it. He is a GREAT person and WILL have my business for MANY years to come.


Thanks,
Matt (LEO SOUTH GA.) </div></div>
 

Luke

Sergeant
May 29, 2002
926
41
28
Colorado
#11
Re: Loads fo Subsonics- All Cals

Here's another lost post by RUM Lover:

1/10 twist, 18" Krieger
220 Hornady RNSP
Win Mag Primers
2.8"
10.5 Greendot
1 ragged hole at 100m
2" grp at 200m

Same as above w/10gr Trail boss
1" at 100
3.5" at 200
 

Luke

Sergeant
May 29, 2002
926
41
28
Colorado
#12
Re: Loads fo Subsonics- All Cals

<span style="font-weight: bold">Originally posted by Denz:</span>

Well after pulling a few searches of subsonic loads I found most had good results with TrailBoss. I took DavefromGA’s load of 9.3 and adjusted for it my rifle. A Gap SP .308 20”rock 1-11 with shadow can. Here’s what I loaded
Case: LC90
Powder: TrailBoss 9.6
Bullet: 180 RN Hornady
Primer: CCI 250
Loaded with Lee Deluxe Dies, Powder dropped using a lee perfect powder measure only weighed 1st and last round (50 total).
Here’s a pic of the target at 200yrds. I think it works…


<span style="font-weight: bold">Orginally posted by Rijndael:</span>

I'm running a 20" Schneider 5P 1:11.

9.6 was definitely a sweet spot for me as well.

9.6 Trailboss
FGMM Brass
Sierra 180
210M Primer

A 4 shot group was sub minute.

<span style="font-weight: bold">Originally posted by MtMisfit:</span>

FGMM Brass
180gr Speer RN
CCI 200
COAL 2.810

11.5gr Trail Boss is giving me 1056fps avg from my 20" 700VS.

9.6gr gives me 1140 with 150gr RN.

The 170gr FP are somewhere in between.

I tried 9.5gr as a starting load with the 180's and was in the low 800fps range.

glad I have a chrono.

<span style="font-weight: bold">Orginally posted by KS:</span>

Denz, those are some damn fine groups at 200yds! I would be happy with those at 100yds. I must be doing something wrong.

This was my first attempt to loading subs for my AAC Cyclone. It was WAY quiet. I wanted to load to about 1050fps. I played w/ the charge to get there. I was encouraged w/ the 50yds groups but dissapointed at 100yds. I did NOT adjust the OAL trying to tighten the groups up. I checked the targets for keyholing at 5yds, 25yds, and 100yds. All were nice and round. After that I screwed the can on and went for it.

Sierra 170gr (30-30 rond nose, flat based bullet)
10.0gr TrailBoss
210M's
IMI brass
OAL 2.70"

10.0grs averaged 1069fps
11.0grs averaged 1106fps

It shot 1/2" at 50yds. Average 1069fps for 10rds.
100yd opened up to about 2".

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

I have some Sierra 200mk's. Do you think they would be worth a try (with TrailBoss) or should I stick to the roundnose bullets?

BTW, TrailBoss is some STRANGE lookin' powder!

thanks,
Keith

Here is what I am shooting them in.

KMW built:
308 Win.
Surgeon action
Krieger barrel, 24", 1-10" twist
Badger Ordnance bottom metal
Shilen trigger
McMillan A5, adj cheek Piece, 33% each of OD green, black, and tan, flush cups
Badger Ordnance rings
US Optics SN-3, T-Pal, EREK, green illuminated Type 1 reticle
AAC Cyclone can
Ops Inc. brake

<span style="font-weight: bold">Originally posted by Mike Reynolds:</span>

This is my first post here, I have spent some time just reading. I do not have any experience with trail boss, I have been using Unique for a few years now. I have never had any signs of pressure problems and my loads have been very accurate out to 200 yds. It is very important to weigh each charge, I have tried just using a thrown charge but velocity was all over the place. Load specs below:

LC brass
Magnum primers
190 gr SMK
9 gr Unique

I do not do any thing special for case prep and I was getting around 1060 fps out of my 26 inch, 1-10 twist barrel. I just started using the Lapua 200 gr subsonic bullets with good accuracy results.

<span style="font-weight: bold">Originally posted by REM700MAN:</span>

this is second hand info, so try at your own risk

.308
10.5 gr of trailboss
180 gr sierra

i was looking for the same thing and i think that is what someone posted that they use

good luck

<span style="font-weight: bold">Originally posted by JasonK:</span>

Here's some info from another site, this guy is very into the low power loads.

HERE'S THE BLUE DOT POST.....READ ON

Now to address this topic...on 223 gopher loads...with Blue Dot..
This info ought to keep you busy, but you need to load one at a time if you are loading the slower velocity loads, so that you do not double charge your load...all of these loads have proven safe in my 223s,

Blue Dot Range Report: 223 Caliber ( Full )

Bullet Weights Tested:
1. 35 grain Hornady V Max
2. 40 grain Hornady Vmax
3. 45 grain Sierra SP
4. 50 grain Sierra SMP
5. 52 grain Sierra Boat Tail Match
6. 55 grain Winchester FMJ

Rifle Used: Ruger 77 Mk 2, VT 26 inch Barrel, Stainless Steel First yr Model

Case: Lake City Surplus, previously fired

Primer: Remington 6 ½

Powder: Blue Dot

Charge Weight Tested: 4 grains to 14 grains.


Weather: Sunny, NO clouds, 80 degrees, NO wind,

Altitude: 2000 ft

Humidity: Very Low


Field Results:


35 grain Hornady V Max:

4 grs: 1284 fps
5 grs: 1488 fps
6 grs: 1862 fps
7 grs: 2163 fps
8 grs: 2392 fps

9 grs: 2636 fps
10 grs: 2722 fps
11 grs: 3076 fps
12 grs: 3205 fps
13 grs: NO Reading
14 grs: 3518 fps

15 grs: NO Reading, Too hot, Extractor Marks, Scrapped Case
16 grs: NO Reading, Too Hot Blew Primer


Hornady 40 grain Vmax:

4 grs: 1161 fps
5 grs: 1538 fps
6 grs: 1798 fps
7 grs: 2148 fps

8 grs: 2243 fps
9 grs: 2539 fps
10 grs: 2771 fps
11 grs: 2956 fps

12 grs: 3013 fps
13 grs: 3218 fps
14 grs: 3375 fps


Sierra 45 grain SP

4 grs: 1239 fps
5 grs: 1447 fps
6 grs: 1688 fps
7 grs: 1880 fps

8 grs: 2118 fps
9 grs: 2363 fps
10 grs: 2553 fps
11 grs: 2811 fps

12 grs: 2875 fps
13 grs: 3008 fps
14 grs: 3164 fps


Sierra 50 grains SMP

4 grs: 1064 fps
5 grs: 1345 fps
6 grs: 1624 fps
7 grs: 1788 fps

8 grs: 2033 fps
9 grs: 2257 fps
10 grs: 2466 fps
11 grs: 2655 fps
12 grs: 2779 fps

13 grs: 2882 fps
14 grs: 3038 fps


Sierra 52 grain Boattail Hollow Point Match

4 grs: 1061 fps
5grs: 1460 fps
6 grs: 1632 fps
7 grs: 1916 fps

8 grs: 2142 fps
9 grs: 2225 fps
10 gr: NO Reading
11 grs: 2673 fps

12 grs: 2782 fps
13 grs: 2879 fps
14 grs: 3012 fps


Winchester 55 grain FMJ

4 grs: 896 fps
5 grs: 1264 fps
6 grs: 1568 fps
7 grs: 1825 fps
8 grs: 1994 fps

9 grs: 2201 fps
10 grs: 2328 fps
11 grs: 2453 fps

12 grs: 2677 fps
13 grs: 2821 fps
14 grs: 2915 fps





Notes:

1. IN the evaluation of the 223, I came further to the conclusion of the versatility of the 223 in the use of training new shooters, and for a very versatile varmint caliber.
2. Essentially the 223 can be loaded to the specs of a 22 Long rifle, a 218 Bee, a 221 Fireball, a 222 Remington, a 22 Hornet, and a 22 Win Mag., while allowing the shooter to be able to pick the type of bullet that he prefers.
3. Bullets were limited to use of 35 grains to 55 grains. Heavier bullets will not serve any purpose unless a 223 is to be used for deer hunting. I do not believe that their would be a significant difference in the use of a 55 grain bullet vs a 60 grain bullet.
4. The recoil on the lighter loads using 4 to 6 grains of powder had minimal recoil if any at all. These would be ideal for young shooters being trained.
5. Noise level on the lighter loads ( 4 to 6 grains) were on par with a rim fire. An increase in noise level was very noticeable above 7 grains, but still very acceptable. ( No sounding like a rim fire any more)

Noted Observations:

1. It was noted but not considered part of the testing, with a tree used as a back stop for some of the testing, that all bullets ( 45 to 55 grains)penetrated thru the tree at a distance of 20 yds.
2. The diameter of the tree was measured at 5 inches.
3. The 40 grain Vmax loads failed to penetrate the tree at loads above 10 grs, above 2771 fps. However at 10 grains and less, the bullets penetrated thru the tree and did a large amount of damage ( like turning the wood into tooth picks) on the exit side of the tree. The penetration stopped at the 5 grain load.


Some of the Author’s Conclusions:

1. I learned some significant items beyond the versatility of the 223 with the bullets tested, but focusing on its use in the field, got some ideas.
2. A light rifle such as a Winchester Featherweight or Rugers Compact model with a 16.5 inch barrel or the Ultra Light with a 20 inch barrel would make a good combo with the use of Blue Dot.
3. Since the powder is burned cleanly in the first 10 to 12 inches of barrel, the shorter barrels are not handicappiing velocity in the lighter shorter rifles.
4. The penetration of the 40 grain Vmax into the tree did make me ponder the use of those plastic tip varmint rounds as potential loads for small deer for youth shooters. Just like my observations in the larger calibers, the plastic tipped bullet seem to do a lot more damage, at velocities under 2700 fps. The Vmax surprised me. This is a decision any shooter will have to test on his own and make their own decisions. I am just passing on that I saw potential merit in the application.
5. Although one has to weigh out the potential of Plastic Tipped Varmint bullets on bigger game like deer and antelope, some of these loads in real life use, utilizing Barnes’s X bullets in 22 caliber I can recommend. They make a 45 grain, 50 grain and 53 grain bullet. The way I saw much better penetration and more damage in wood, at the lower range velocities, 2200 to 2700 fps, this would make a good deer load in many parts of the USA, and recoil is minimal.


I did not test any bigger bullets as I feel that those tested would be represent the best potential with the powder. 60, 63, 64, 65 grain bullets and then the larger match bullets did not give what I considered useful velocity when I have shot them before with Blue Dot, in respect to their field design uses.


My personal most often used Blue Dot/223 loads are...

14.5 grains with a 40, to 46 grain bullet

14 grains with a 50 grain bullet ( Speer TNT highly recommended)

13.5 grains with a 55 grain bullet.. ( don't use SPSX Hornady's in a rifle with a one in 9 twist as this may vaporize it coming out the barrel, the SPSX is too fragile for one in 9 twists, except at pretty low velocities..

It takes a lot to overheat your barrel, it reduces recoil substantially ( it won't cycle ARs!).. it will also greatly reduce vibration down synthetic stocks, which medical studies are indictating a cause of hearing loss in high volume shooters....
 
Aug 16, 2007
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Tempe AZ
#13
Re: Loads fo Subsonics- All Cals

When trying your subsonics do you treat the bullets or barrel (lubing between shots?) or you just shoot as is? How often do you get a bullet stuck in the barrel. I would like a subsonic load that I dont have to worry about lubing inbetween shots etc
 

Luke

Sergeant
May 29, 2002
926
41
28
Colorado
#14
Re: Loads fo Subsonics- All Cals

DEATH: I think most people start with a faster load that has no risk of getting stuck, and then work down until they reach the desired velocity. If you follow some of the loads posted on here I think you'll be off to a good start.
 
May 5, 2006
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#15
Re: Loads fo Subsonics- All Cals

DEATH: I've only had 1 bullet stuck in the barrel, well it was half way out. That was back in 98 or 99 when I just getting started in gallery loads. I think I was using either greendot or redot below 9 grains.

General rules for subs:

Bullet types:
FOR PUNCHING PAPER: Round nose bullets (or anything shaped like a tear drop) has been proven to be the most stable in subsonic flight. With that said I've found that SMKs can be just as accurate as long as you have the proper twist rate. For comparison, I can shoot 220 RNSPs out of my 1/10 barrel and stack them into the same hole at 100 in the absense of wind. However, a 220 SMK will not be stable enough and strike the baffels in the can on the same barrel. To shoot a SMK type design, I have to drop down to the 190s to get stable departure from the bore. This is because of the bullet length. The SMK design requires a longer bullet to achieve the same weight. The longer the bullet, the faster the twist required.

FOR HUNTING: Right now I'm set on the SMKs as they are just barely stable (given the appropriate twist v/s weight) and will tumble causing a wound channel similar to a broadhead. Several years ago I started out with hornady 220 RNSPs and had results (not great, but I never lost a deer since I was using a rest out of a box stand and put them through the lungs or heart). The wound channel was the diameter of the bullet with no expansion. There are several people out there working on softer hollow point designs that will expand at sub velocities, but I contend that an exit wound with these type of rounds (those that don't have a significant/effective hydrostatic shock) is critical to a recovery of the animal. In looking at the typical energy and momentum generated by the more popular 223, 6mm and 308 sub loads, I'm not convinced that the bullet can expend enough energy to both expand and exit the body. Enty holes are going to be caliber diameter and if you are after hogs, deer, or similar sized game, the entry wound is likely to be filled with fat, tissue, or guts. Conversly, I argue that the SMKs will tumble and leave a wound like a knife that can't be shut off by body matter. These results have been mentioned by JD Jones who has built a business out of the subsonic quandry.


When you start loading subs, do not put the can on before you ensure the pills aren't tumbling at 100.

30 CAL Twist rate:
1/12: 180 grain and below for the SMK types designes (AMAXs, FMJ, anything with a pointed tip and boattail) 190's with a RN design
1/10: 200 and below for pointed designs, 220 for RN designs
1/8: 240 and below for pointed design, I don't know of a 30 cal round nose design greater than 220.

Using a 223 subsonic is no different that a .22 subsonic, just more expensive. Bullet weights are similar and the velocities are the same. Besides, to get sub 223 loads you have to do a lot of researching for the right load and spend an awfull lot of time prepping the rounds. For .22, just stop by walmart...

If you want to go after 223 subs, I used greendot with about 8 grains. That was back in 2000, now I'd try trailboss, SR 4759, or RE7.

For powder in a 308:

Pistol powders are more quiet (2-4dB which is barely audible to the ear). However, they have several drawbacks:

1. Extremely small case capacity which leads to significant velocity spreads due to position sensitivity. For example, above, I'm quoted with a load for greendot. While the accuracy was excellent, I had to make sure I did tilted the barrel up and tapped the rifle to seat the powder against the primer for every shot to get those groups.
2. They are very temp sensitive
3. A doubled charge (or even one that's just a few grains over) will quickly create a pressure spike and can lead to the case failing

For the bulkier powders (TB, 4759, RE7, Accurate 2250 ro somehting like that.. not sure but it's labeled as a bulky powder for low power loads) , just add a little water to the can to surpass the suppression level of the pistol powders. Click...wait...wait...wait...thump is what you get.


Trail Boss isn't the universal holy grail for subsonic rilfe loads but it's a great place to start. For 308s with barrels over 16", start around 10 grains. I haven't found enough evidence that there is a temp sensitivity, but there certainly isn't a case position sentisitivity. With the heavier 220-240 gr bullets, I've had a hard time getting them to 1050 with TB in my pistol. Consequently, I played around and found IMR SR 4759 and have been very happy with it from 5-65 deg.

Others are playing with H110 and CLAYS, but the same problems arise as with the pistol powders.

For primers, I always use mag primers, but they might not be necessary with Trail Boss or other bulky powders. I am convinced that they are the safest decision when using pistol or shotgun powders due to the small case capacity

I have never drilled out the primer pockets

 
May 5, 2006
102
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0
#16
Re: Loads fo Subsonics- All Cals

DEATH: I reccomend lubing the barrel with CLP (1 wet patch followed by a dry patch) before the first shot. This prevents the significant velocity drop of the first shot when compared to the subsequent shots. I never did this until ARTFUL (both here on the hide and on Quarterbore) suggested it. He has also done a lot of work with subs and his FAL. quarterbore.com under 308 loads will also get you a lot of info.
 
Aug 16, 2007
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52
Tempe AZ
#17
Re: Loads fo Subsonics- All Cals

Thanks for the info, gonna have to get out with my chrony and do some 223 and 308 loads. Mostly using on an ar15 and osw fal using a 762-SD can
 

SNOW

Sergeant
Mar 6, 2003
209
0
0
Jackson, MS
#18
Re: Loads fo Subsonics- All Cals

Rum or others, any reason to run your boattails backwards? You know what I mean, load them boattail exposed. What's the thinking behind that? I have a ton of 178 Amaxs and a 1-12" twist. Was about to order some more 180 RN bullets but will not it I can shoot the 178s ok.
 
May 5, 2006
102
0
0
#19
Re: Loads fo Subsonics- All Cals

When researching subs back in the late 90's I had heard of many people loading bullets backwards. The idea comes from the study of aerodynamics in the aerospace industry, specifically that a teardrop shape is the most stable design for subsonic flight. This was evident in the missle designs of the post WWII era such as the V2 and subsequent american knock-offs. I never tried it, but don't see any harm is doing so as long as you don't have a can on the barrel when you fire the first few dozen shots. Put up some paper at 100y, fire 10+ rounds and see if you notice any of the holes being out of round. If you are confident that they aren't yawing at 100, you shouldn't have any problems with the can on.

With that said, I would also try them point forward. A 178 is marginal for a 1/12 twist and I've found that stability, for some reason I can't explain, also varys per barrel. You may have no problems loading normally with those AMaxs.

Whatever you decide, just don't shoot the first few rounds with the can on until you are satisfied with the stability. If you are really concerned over the paper test. Put up several sheets of paper at 1' intervals behind the target to look for subsequent clean holes. You should see yawing after a sheet or two if the bullet is barely stable or tears in the paper if it isn't stable. If it's clean holes all the way, it should be stable enough to have a clean exit from the suppressor.
 
Mar 10, 2005
814
0
0
48
Oh here and there
#20
Re: Loads fo Subsonics- All Cals

I have loaded the 147gr FMJ's, 150gr SP's and a few others this way due discussions with Mark at Sound Tech. So I tried it, works ok, some are and can be accurate but I learned the 9 to 10" twist barrels stabilize most bullets in this call faster and more accurately. during test, I will go down range at or about 50yds while shooting at 100yds, standing off to the side about 25yds and the flat nose or reverse bullets have a noticeable sound difference in flight over a RN or FMJ round. depending on your desired usage, target or hunting, would really determine what bullet design and weight I would go with. best wishes and good shooting quietly.
 
Jul 22, 2004
193
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0
RI
#21
Re: Loads fo Subsonics- All Cals

DEATH,
If you want a good subsonic system, take a look at the Whisper round's by SSK Ind.. Loading subsonic .308's can be very iffy at best. Depending how the powder light's in the case, the case presure can go up to very dangerous levels. (You should hold the gun muzzle up and lower it slowly to fire. This put's the powder all the way to the rear of the case.) If you play around with these round's long enough you will get a stuck round in the barrel. The problem comes if you don't notice it and fire another round right behind it, now you have a BIG problem! Stick with something that is made to do what you want it to do, like the .300 Whisper. If you have an AR, get a LMT MRP upper and have SSK make a .300 Whisper barrel for it. Then you can switch from .223 to .300 Whisper in about 1 - 2 min. by just changing the barrel's. (They both use the same mag's & bolt.) Now that is a sweet set up!
 
Jan 26, 2003
90
0
6
Woodbridge, VA
#22
Re: Loads fo Subsonics- All Cals

FN SPR
1in12 twist
20"

9.6gr Trailboss
FGMM 210M primer
FGMM Brass
170 gr Hornady RNSP (.30-30 bullet)

I could only find 170's in round nose at the time I worked up this load. So I worked my way down from about 11 grains with the can off. At 100 yds I was able to go all the way down to 9grs with no keyhole effect. So I put the can on and shot for groups. 9.6 grs shot MOA and it was MOA more consistant than the TTI loads I had just shot 300 rounds of!

So 9.6 grs and a 170gr RNSP worked for me in a 12 twist FN barrel despite people saying NO NO no lighter than 180gr in a 12 twist.

<span style="font-weight: bold">***This may not be the case in your rifle (whoever is reading this). So always always start with a few grains higher than the recommended sub load and work your way down and make sure everything is stable in your exact rifle set up until you get as low a charge as you can that is accurate. Then attach your can and you will be happy with the quietness too.</span>
 
Jan 26, 2003
90
0
6
Woodbridge, VA
#23
Re: Loads fo Subsonics- All Cals

Also my test were .5 grains difference and strings of 12 rnds (4, 3 rnd groups).

The 11grs to 10grs were so loud (with no can on still) and sub moa I skipped that weight charge after 2, 3 shot groups of each.

At 9.5 grains the 3 shot groups looked good.
At 9 grains they looked good but flyers were starting to produce, opening things up to 1.25 and 1.5 MOA.

So when the can went back on 9.5 grains was the winner of accuracy.

Later tests of .1 grain increments 9.6 to 9.9 then 10grs in 12 shot strings produced a winner with 9.6 grains for the quietest and stayed under 1 MOA all the time.

Oh yeah no deer has walked away from this one either. All neck shots under 100yds. Except for one frontal chest shot at 100yds. Dropped dead and was missing half a heart.

Good luck, it's a lot of fun if you are patient and if you are in the pursuit of a perfect sub load.
 
May 5, 2006
102
0
0
#24
Re: Loads fo Subsonics- All Cals

dmachine,
I'd agree about the 308's being iffy but only if you are loading with the pistol or shotgun powders like Red Dot, BlueDot, clays, etc..

If you have a 16" barrel or more, trailboss will fill up the case and get the 200-220's to 1050 without the powder position sensitivity you speak of and thereby generating the reliable ignition we desire eliminating the occasional droped shot from low velocity. For the 220-240's in shorter barrels, try IMR SR 4759 around 15 grains. It fills the case about 80% and doesn't have the position sensitivity of the faster powders.

The problem with the whispers is brass availability. I've got an encore barrel in 300Whisper, but rarely shoot it due to the pain of making brass from the 221 or 223(slightly easier) cases. That may all change if starline follows through with future production plans.
 
Jul 22, 2004
193
0
0
RI
#25
Re: Loads fo Subsonics- All Cals

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RUM Lover</div><div class="ubbcode-body">dmachine,
I'd agree about the 308's being iffy but only if you are loading with the pistol or shotgun powders like Red Dot, BlueDot, clays, etc..

If you have a 16" barrel or more, trailboss will fill up the case and get the 200-220's to 1050 without the powder position sensitivity you speak of and thereby generating the reliable ignition we desire eliminating the occasional droped shot from low velocity. For the 220-240's in shorter barrels, try IMR SR 4759 around 15 grains. It fills the case about 80% and doesn't have the position sensitivity of the faster powders.

The problem with the whispers is brass availability. I've got an encore barrel in 300Whisper, but rarely shoot it due to the pain of making brass from the 221 or 223(slightly easier) cases. That may all change if starline follows through with future production plans. </div></div>

I thought Trail Boss was just another pistol / shotgun powder too. I'll check it out. (Although I still would not want to take a nice GAP rifle and run the risk of sticking a round in it.) If you need Whisper brass just call SSK, they have all you need of any size Whisper brass. Corbon sell's loaded Whisper ammo. (I think Corbon is owned by SSK, or at least has something to do with them.) One of the nice thing's about the .300 Whisper brass is it can be loaded many times. If you pick up 500 or 1000 pcs. of brass from SSK it will hold you for quite some time.
 

SNOW

Sergeant
Mar 6, 2003
209
0
0
Jackson, MS
#26
Re: Loads fo Subsonics- All Cals

Loaded another 100 rounds of subs yesterday. Av vel was 980 fps with 16 fps being the widest spread. 10 rounds tested. 10 rounds printed 1.4" @ 100. Want to try some 178 maxs because I have so many. Will get to that soon. Subs through a can and 13+ pound rifle is nothing but fun!

Gap 308
22" Broughton
SRT Shadow
55 degrees

10 grains TB
CCI BR2
Fed twice fired brass
180 Sierra RN
2.8 OAL
 
#27
Re: Loads fo Subsonics- All Cals

10 grains of Trailboss was running 960fps in my stock R700 .308 with 26 inch varmint barrel. Shooting Lapua 200 grain subsonic bullets loaded to OAL 2.8 inch.
I found them to be stable and shot them with my Omega silencer. Very nice. But groups are in the 3 inch range at 100 yards.
I am going to load 12 grains and work down in 1/2 grain decrements to find 1050fps velocity range and see if groups improve. If not then a new bullet is in order.
 
#28
Re: Loads fo Subsonics- All Cals

While this sin't load specific, if you get a bullet stuck in the barrel and it won't come out easy (they almost never do), try a charged case with the can OFF. It has done the trick for me when I have tried it, just make sure not to spill any powder when chambering the case, and use at your own risk.

Gerry
 
May 5, 2006
102
0
0
#29
Re: Loads fo Subsonics- All Cals

TrailBoss is a very bulky powder designed for cowboy action shooting. 15 grains will completely fill a 308 case. Stuff a 200 SMK or greater round nose design in there with approx. 11 grains (some rifles will need a little less or a little more depending on barrel length) and you'll have a consisitent, accurate load for any 1/10 twist rifle. My harbinger (GAP/SH build from a few years ago) loves 10.5 gr of TB with 200SMKs. A sub load won't harm a barrel, it's creating far less pressure than a hot load. If you follow protocol of working loads down instead of the traditional up, you won't stick a bullet in the bore. Just crony it with a goal of 1050 to get the max energy and remain below the transsonic range.

SSK made brass is unrealistically expensive for most of the people I know shooting gallery loads. Corbon is going for $31/20 rds. 223 brass cut down is the promissing venue for creating 300 whisper brass right now. Nevertheless, the 300 whisper reportedly doesn't like the longer barrels of conventional sticks and many folks don't want to get a custom rifle for sub shooting. Consequently, I submit the above loads are reliable and accurate in a 308.

If you have a 300 Whisper, try 11.5 gr of RE7 with 220 SMKs. It's held 3/4 MOA in my 16" encore tube. I would suggest staying away from H110 and Clays. They are both temp sensitive and create vertical stringing. I missed a nice 11 point @ 135 yards in 2001 due to this problem. Without a lubed bore, below freezing temps and an H110 zero made at 85 deg., the bullet completely missed the heart shot I was going for. Damn 22 year-old neighbor shot the deer the next day.

If anyone gets a bullet stuck in the bore, the powder filled case is an iffy proposition depending on the location of the bullet. Again, if you follow subsonic loading protocol and work down in charges v/s the traditional up, you shouldn't have any issues. The one time in 11 years that I've come across a stuck bullet, I just tapped it out with a brass jag and a dewey rod with short taps. There was no change in accuracy, no damage to the bore. These sticks are built to work, not be Paris-ed (hilton that is).
 

Luke

Sergeant
May 29, 2002
926
41
28
Colorado
#30
Re: Loads fo Subsonics- All Cals

Crumpmd: Is your barrel a 1/12 twist? Might explain the poor accuracy with the heavy 200gr. Lapua's.
 

Scoop

Sergeant
Jan 27, 2005
114
0
16
SC - USA
#32
Re: Loads fo Subsonics- All Cals

Here's a .308 load for all you 12-twisters out there. I have had excellent luck with the <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="color: #CC0000">Berry's 150 Plated FN</span></span> bullets in my 12-twist Remmy SPS Tactical. The load I settled on is 6.8 gr of Titegroup (case-position insensitive) in LC89 Match brass (weighed to 1 grain extreme spread, but no other match case preps) lit by a Fed 215M primer. COL is 2.635 which keeps the bullets about 35 thous off the lands. I put a light crimp on with a Lee FCD die. This load averages 1020 fps in my rifle with SWR Omega attached. It feeds reliably, is stable and is consistently MOA or better. Oh, and the bullets are CHEAP to boot


Standard disclaimer: Use at your own risk. Start higher and work down.
 
May 23, 2003
368
0
16
Powhatan, Va
#33
Subsonic .308 drop

Finally got a box of Hornady 180 gr. RN. Loaded up 5 rounds at 10.5 gr. Trail Boss and fired without suppressor to check stablization at 50 yds. These shot nice little round holes. Screwed the YHM Phantom on my 20" LTR and fired around 8 rds. and they were definately subsonic. Was shooting out of my office window to my 100 yd range but it's pouring down rain so I could not set up my chronograph to check the speed. I did shoot one rd. at 10.7 gr. and detected no sonic crack. The steel was at 150 yds. from my window and I had cranked in 12 MOA of elevation. The rounds were hitting the berm about 12-15" below my POA on the steel. How much elevation are you guys needing to reach 100,150, and 200 yds. at 1050 or so FPS. ? I think I am still a little below 1050 fps. but will have to check on a dryer day here in central Va.
 
May 5, 2006
102
0
0
#35
Re: Loads fo Subsonics- All Cals

I usually keep them .003-.005 off the lands.

While I can't provide definitive proof, my logic is that sub rounds spend more time in the bore (slower) and are consequently more suceptable to vibration. The further the jump to the rifling, the more the vibration according to the benchrest community.
 
#36
Re: Loads fo Subsonics- All Cals

TrailBoss Powder & Lee Dipper size Question ???
It seems the general concensus is 180gr.RN,210mag. , FGMM Brass & between 9.6 & 11.4 gr. Trailboss for .308 subs. taking the average >10gr.+ < ? anyone know what size dipper would equate to approx 10gr.to 10.8 ??? The Lee Dipper crossreference dosen't have TrailBoss Powder listed.
Thanks !
 
Dec 1, 2005
31
0
6
35
Madison, MS
#38
Re: Loads fo Subsonics- All Cals

300 Whisper load

9.2 gr H110
220 SMK
Remington .223 brass
BR-4 primer

not sure of my velocity yet but have had no squibs out of 50+ rounds. Excellent groups out of my 16.5" bolt gun
 

kombayotch

Gunny Sergeant
Sep 20, 2007
1,779
1
38
#39
Re: Loads fo Subsonics- All Cals

.308 Win. 26" bbl 1/11 twist, GAP Palma chamber.

Hornady 180 RN
Lapua brass
CCI BR2
10.2gr. Trailboss
2.650" COAL
1030fps @ 80*F

Hornady 180 RN
Lapua brass
CCI BR2
8.0gr. Titegroup
2.650" COAL
1040fps @ 80*F

Accuracy and velocity ES/SD numbers were about the same for both loads. However, I didn't do any position sensitivity testing.

Update: I have found that if you rub a generous amount of oil on each bullet, in addition to running the patch of oil before the first shot, you don't get the first round velocity drop AND the velocity stays extremely constant. However, average velocity does increase about 20fps or so.
 
May 5, 2006
102
0
0
#40
Re: Loads fo Subsonics- All Cals

AKA-Spook,

What platform are you shooting that in? That's an interesting combination. With that much AA9, are you seeing any pressure signs?
 

kombayotch

Gunny Sergeant
Sep 20, 2007
1,779
1
38
#41
Re: Loads fo Subsonics- All Cals

I've completed my evaluation of Trailboss vs. Titegroup for my subsonic loads. Five 5 rd. groups of each below:


10.2 gr. Trailboss, dispensed from Chargemaster


8.1 gr. Titegroup thrown form polished Dillon powder drop.

Titegroup gave smaller groups and more consistent velocity numbers when dispensed from the Dillon powder drop. It was also much quicker and easier to load with.

I did not find any position sensitivity from any "normal" use of the ammo (mag feed or single loading). Maybe if you were aiming straight up in the air or on a steep downwards angle. I don't see myself doing a ton of that though.

I will be using Titegroup exclusively for my subsonics from now on.
 
Dec 30, 2001
618
0
0
Atlanta, Ga
#42
Re: Loads fo Subsonics- All Cals

kombayotch,
I use and like TB but am open minded to try something new. I have plenty of TG so am interested in your findings. Please post more specs on your load and rifle.

What primer?
What velocity?
Some say the (quicker) pistol powders are alittle quieter than TB loads, do you agree?
Did you drill up the flash hole?

thanks,

Keith
 

kombayotch

Gunny Sergeant
Sep 20, 2007
1,779
1
38
#43
Re: Loads fo Subsonics- All Cals

My loads are posted above and no, didn't do anything to the brass. I've been using quite a bit of Magtech brass too. Those groups came from it actually.

I did all of the testing without a can, so I can't comment on the quietness of one vs the other.

My drive to experiment with TG was due to the fact that I use it for pistol already. So, one less powder to keep around if it worked.
 
Dec 30, 2001
618
0
0
Atlanta, Ga
#44
Re: Loads fo Subsonics- All Cals

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kombayotch</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My loads are posted above and no, didn't do anything to the brass. I've actually been using quite a bit of Magtech brass too. Those groups came from it actually.

I did all of the testing without a can, so I can't comment on the quietness of one vs the other.

My drive to experiment with TG was due to the fact that I use it for pistol already. So, one less powder to keep around if it worked. </div></div>

Oops! I missed that. thanks for the info.

Keith
 
Jan 21, 2002
0
0
0
OR_GUN
#45
Re: Loads fo Subsonics- All Cals

kombayotch - were you doing the whole oil rub down thing on all of these groups? Some? None.

Thank you for posting pics. I was wondering what I was doing wrong with my TB loads b/c they shot like yours. Now I realize that it is what it is and that maybe TG is a better route.

 

Austan

HaHa Up Your Face
Nov 27, 2007
1,036
5
38
Spooner, Wisconsin
#46
Re: Loads fo Subsonics- All Cals

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: m21black</div><div class="ubbcode-body">300 whisper-9.2 grains of H110 over a 240 grain SMK... using remington br primers </div></div>

Any idea of velocity on this load?
 
Jan 25, 2008
763
0
16
Jonesboro,Ar.
#47
Re: Loads fo Subsonics- All Cals

Rem700 varmint barrel cut down to 20", hs prec sendero stock, horus raptor, cyclone can. Rounds chrony w/o can.

win probably 6 time shot brass
winchester lr primers
trailboss 10.2 gr starting load
2.81 coal 168smk
39*f 70%hum 29.78bar 239asl
10.2gr first round 1039fps
10.grs second rnd 993fps
9.9 grs third rnd 918fps
9.7grs fourth rnd 902fps
9.5grs fifth rnd 888fps
and then it happened, I dumped the whole damned box of loads and they scattered.
The rest of the story
992fps 945fps 917fps 936fps
960fps 914fps 898fps 875fps
930fps 882fps 875fps 874fps 868fps

Who the hell knows what the loads are on them. Out of that I do believe that I can decide on the 10.2 or 10.gr loads.
Sorry for the jacked up post, I'll try to do it again soon and not knock over the box.


 

Luke

Sergeant
May 29, 2002
926
41
28
Colorado
#48
Re: Loads fo Subsonics- All Cals

Finally got things nailed down a little better. I decided to not pursue the 220gr. RN loads any further. I have a feeling that the large bearing surface magnified every tiny load varience and I could never get the velocities consistant enough for my liking.

I have settled on 10.7gr Trailboss, 175gr SMK, Winchester brass, Federal 210M primer. Average velocities are roughly between 1000fps and 1030fps. I haven't shot enough through the chrono to determine the true average deviation, extreme spread, etc.

Ideally I would switch to 180gr RN's for better terminal effects but since I have a very large stash of 175's I doubt I'll be switching anytime soon.

Gun info:
Savage 10FLP .308WIN 24" barrel 1/10 twist.
 

kombayotch

Gunny Sergeant
Sep 20, 2007
1,779
1
38
#49
Re: Loads fo Subsonics- All Cals

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mo_Zam_Beek</div><div class="ubbcode-body">kombayotch - were you doing the whole oil rub down thing on all of these groups? Some? None.

Thank you for posting pics. I was wondering what I was doing wrong with my TB loads b/c they shot like yours. Now I realize that it is what it is and that maybe TG is a better route.

</div></div>

Yep, that was with the oil rub and an oil patch before shooting.

I've fired a ton of these now and others have tried them too. I'm having a lot of trouble believing that people are getting consistent velocities without doing something similar. Seen them come out of several barrels ranging from 20" to 26" with the same results. 100-200 fps ES with no oil. First rounds drops significantly. It does get consistent if you fire several in a row. But after the barrel cools, big drop again.

Those groups were the norm.
 

Bronco

Sergeant
Mar 30, 2006
489
0
16
Kansas
#50
Re: Loads fo Subsonics- All Cals

Didn't see many loads for .223 so I worked one up today. Settled on:
5.3 gr. Trailboss
75gr. Honady BTHP
Rem. case
Win. primer
Avg. over 5 shots was 1042, shot 1.5 in group @ 100, but it was windy and most of the spread was lateral.
Shot in AR-15 with 20" 1 in 7 twist barrel. AAC 762-SD can.
 
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