Subsonic for deer

jambau

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Thought I'd put it out there. Anyone going subsonic for deer? What's your set up?
 

PFG

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The ones that I know who hunt deer with subs are very, very critical about keeping the range of the shot in check for the bullet.

From my understanding, the 100 yard mark isn't far from their max if requiring the bullet to do damage in the vitals.

Head and neck shots are a different story, but not for this thread.
 
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spaniel

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Perhaps with a 458 SOCOM but otherwise you are taking a major risk of causing needless suffering for absolutely no reason. Expanding 9mm Luger is illegal pretty much everywhere for deer hunting, why would a subsonic smaller diameter bullet (Blackout) be any better?
 
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hlee

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Pistol bullet weight bullets traveling at pistol bullet velocity can be expected to have pistol bullet terminal ballistics. Personally, I would keep subs to archery ranges- which brings in its own set of challenges.
 
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Sogan

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Are you doing deer management and want to shoot one while keeping others close? If not just go super and call it a day.
 

culater

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Shot 4 deer so far this year with my 300 blk with Lehigh Defence 194 max expansion bullet. Everything under a 100 yds, they only ran 20 yds and dropped like a rock. The bullet you use is critical for taking game. If it doesn't expand at low velocity don't use it. Of course shot placement is always important.
 

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Killed plenty of deer with subs. Practice and know your dope. 300 blackout is a great round . Hornady 190 sub-x is the best factory load for hunting . If you reload Trail boss and the 90 gr XTP is a proven killer. Below is the 190 sub x test bullet . Passed through 4 milk jugs full of water and caught it in the 5th. My set up is Remington 700 300 blackout 16.5” swfa 10x HS Percision stock.
 

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SPAK

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Shot 4 deer so far this year with my 300 blk with Lehigh Defence 194 max expansion bullet. Everything under a 100 yds, they only ran 20 yds and dropped like a rock. The bullet you use is critical for taking game. If it doesn't expand at low velocity don't use it. Of course shot placement is always important.
I’m on deer #7 total kills with the Lehigh 194 ME... it really is devastating at subsonic speeds. I keep my shots to 100 yards max but I have repeatable 4” groups at 200 yards with this bullet. According to specs it will still expand down to about 700fps. At 400 yards it’s still going 888 FPS.

Every deer has gone between 5-20 yards max and dropped with massive bleeding. Avoid shoulder shots, keep in the heart,lungs, liver and it will shred like a massive broadhead.
 
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Broc

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I’m on deer #7 total kills with the Lehigh 194 ME... it really is devastating at subsonic speeds.
That's good to hear. I'm heading out tomorrow with a buddy that's shooting that same load so hopefully I can report back with similar results.
 
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Snuby642

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I don't see any problem with head shots at 50-100 yds.
220g fbrn hornady, 12.1gr cfe blk sig brass cci 400 primer. 2.1 coal. Slight crimp.
Rem 700 aac 300blk 16 in aac can. Movie quiet.
 

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davsco

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guy i shoot with has a 308 with a can, subsonic loads, headshots on deer <50yds, says it's in the .44 mag power range.
 

Snuby642

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If I could shoot groups like that I would have no problem with 44 mag at 50.
If you insist on shooting lung shots with subsonic ammo those Lehigh are the way to go.

My 220's are about 34 cents so I can still aford to plink them some as well.
We have 50-90 yard shots available on several stands and if the critters don't
Hold still for a head shot, they walk when using the subs.
Thats the game we play with sub guns.

plenty of 223,243,270,308 for longer work.
 
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Snuby642

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I wish hornady would release those new bullets for hand loading.
Thier price was not the problem for thier new sub loads.
It was that so far no factory loads have out grouped my loads in my gun as
Far as subs go.

I belive most of that to be very touchy on the powder drop.
I think it is because of the percentage of powder as apposed to "target" is narrowed.
I hand trickle each load and dont think any mass produced ammo can hold that tolarence.
 

spaniel

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guy i shoot with has a 308 with a can, subsonic loads, headshots on deer <50yds, says it's in the .44 mag power range.
This really doesn't make sense. A subsonic round and a 44mag throwing 240-300gr bullets kill in very different ways. "Power" doesn't even make sense, I don't care what the kinetic energy numbers say. A sub is essentially a broadhead, if you are smart enough to choose one of the few bullets that can expand at such velocities (IMHO a broadhead is better). A 44mag gets into low end rifle territory where real collateral tissue damage is taking place.

I know a guy who liked taking head shots...liked to brag about it...heads move a lot...sure enough after 4-5 deer one swiveled a bit as he shot and he blew its jaw off and it ran off to starve to death.
 

davsco

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he's a good and accurate shooter. maybe i misunderstood him or something, but basically a lot of backyard deer donated to the hungry... i certainly don't condone situations that have a likelihood of wounding our prey.
 

Snuby642

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If you don't like head shots, dont take them.
As far as some guy you know crap, many a bow shot has went wrong as well.
Same bad luck.

People take head shots for various reasons nothing to do with bragging.
Most leagle centerfires do fine within the marksmans skill set.

If for one moment you think bow hunting is more humane than shooting subs,
You are full of shit.

No tracking, waiting or any of that bow hunt stuff.
No adrenilen pumped full meat, no retrival hassle, no messed up meat, it goes on.

Never "lost" game bowhunting? Bullshit.

Long ago started taking heart shots on purpose, eliminated tracking and dragging.
Next step, head shots eliminated a mess, and now I get to eat the hearts.
 

Snuby642

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I actually envy a good bow hunter don't get that wrong.
But it's not more humane, just more sporting.
If I could hold a draw I would do it, back is afu.
 

spaniel

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If you don't like head shots, dont take them.
As far as some guy you know crap, many a bow shot has went wrong as well.
Same bad luck.

People take head shots for various reasons nothing to do with bragging.
Most leagle centerfires do fine within the marksmans skill set.

If for one moment you think bow hunting is more humane than shooting subs,
You are full of shit.

No tracking, waiting or any of that bow hunt stuff.
No adrenilen pumped full meat, no retrival hassle, no messed up meat, it goes on.

Never "lost" game bowhunting? Bullshit.

Long ago started taking heart shots on purpose, eliminated tracking and dragging.
Next step, head shots eliminated a mess, and now I get to eat the hearts.
LOL. Would you like to point on the doll exactly where spaniel hurt you?

Lots of defensive comments about stuff I didn't event say. Basically, it's a FACT that the head is the most mobile part of the deer. In my decades of deer hunting I've seen far too many screwed up head shots, which in reality only missed by 1-3 inches so accuracy wasn't a problem -- stuff just moves and it's a tiny target. Miss your aiming point by 1-3 inches on a chest shot and you have a dead deer every time.

If you want to take your head shots be my guest, but don't get your panties in a bunch when people point out the down sides. People have a right to opinions and you're showing your liberal tendencies if you can't stand having a healthy debate about a topic, and you have the only right answer, and have to start cussing when someone disagrees with you. That's the path of a small mind.

And yes, I'll take a 1.25" broadhead over a 300 Blackout with subs any day of the week. I've seen enough deer shot with both.
 

Snuby642

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You won't see me stumbling around with a flashlight looking for game
from some half ass shanked shot with a bow.

It doesn't matter which rifle I use, at 50-100 I ice pick them or just don't shoot.
I like the quiet from a sub and a suppressor.

If I hunt 100 yd plus the sub toy don't get no action, I also don't normaly do head shots
At ranges past 100 on deer I have several guns I hunt with to 300 if I need to.
Those shots are normally behind one shoulder and out in front of the other or not taken.

To some the shot is important, I suppose to others they just don't care.

Some folks still respect the game and the sport more than a pile of horns to brag about.
 

Potss

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You can take a deer with a .22lr. You can take a deer with a sling. Neither are particularly good ideas when other methods are available, both have a much higher chance of being inhumane, and both require more effort than other methods. The same is true of .300blk subs. It is a glorified .45ACP. There are far more appropriate and humane rounds to use both subsonic (like big bore .458 etc) and supersonic.

So while yes it can work, I usually caution people.
 
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SPAK

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To each their own.

Personally subsonic expanding Bullets like the Lehigh changed my view of subsonic hunting. After seeing the results I’ve been having inside 100 yards with 7 deer, I’ll continue to use these bullets. I have other rifles for longer shots and larger game.

As with any hunting regardless of weapon or projectile shot placement and choice is key. I wouldn’t take head shots or shoulder shots with the lehighs. Treat them like broadheads and they will harvest very well.

If you crossbow hunt, it’s as effective. Maybe more so. But that is for opinions and a whole other evaluation which I don’t have the time for.
 

Snuby642

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Just trying to get the mindset here.

If I choose to pass up multiple shots and deer, "in my case good breeding stock".
And wait for the one choice opertunity to ice pick the animal,
some how this is inhumane.
Does not matter much the round used for this, 223 55g works fine.
I chose to go quite just because I "can".
I have worked up my loads in 300 subs to be sub moa.
They are at a price I can afford to shoot weekly, practice quietly without recoil.
Very enjoyable.

But somehow shooting an animal in the soft spot below the ear "head shot" has become
unsporting? Or inhumane?

Suppose I could try suffication with a pillow that would be sporty and quiet.

Edit: ecept for my screaming and bleading probably.
 
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SPAK

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I’m not opposed to head shots with a 300 blk. I’ve done it and worked out great. They just require more skill and accuracy. The reason I avoid headshots with lehighs is they are not designed for going through bone and expanding reliably. Although a properly placed headshot most likely doesn’t require expansion.

If I were to shoot heads I’d pick a 220 smk or 208 eld, both of which are more accurate in my rifle than the lehighs. I’ve done it and they work just fine. They just aren’t very reliable projectiles for chest shots.

The expanding sub projectiles just allow me a larger target area in the chest cavity. For me and the areas that I hunt subsonic, this results in a higher probability of proper shot placement.
 
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Mullhead

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Not many bow hunters shot Moa. I have a 458 socom ( built on a savage) it stays at the house. I have killed hundreds of deer with subs it is very simple shoot them in the lungs or heart and they die rather quickly. Often running no more than 30 or 40 yards. Know your limits and if you can’t make the shot don’t take it. How do you think most local town’s and city’s manage there deer? Do you want Supers being shot in town limits ? Below is a doe I shot at 180 yards with the Sub-x . I was in a barn ( prone) by the time I got up ,got in the side by side and drive up there she was dead. She walked less than 20 yards got wobbly legged and dropped. Pic is of the exit wound .
 

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Snuby642

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I had at best in my gun gotten 1 1/2 moa with factory loads of 207 and 208 subs.
I know the bc in those is crazy good but they measure it at super.
Some bench loader told me to try flat base since I was staying at 100 yd.
Went full on retro and used fbrn, resulting in sub moa in my gun.
Decided it would be fine give a lot of restraint on shot choice.

Have a city employee interested in it for management use.
Evedently fits the bill better than what they use on the golf course.
Very little blood loss if caught just below the ear.
If you were to miss it won't go far.
Won't disturb suburbia like a shotgun.

Those lehigh's are great but at a price and make a bit of a mess.
Spife has helped me with this load, but also does not use it for hunting.

I would only recomend hunting with it at 100 yards and less in light winds,
By reserved well practiced shooters willing to pass on a lot of marginal shots.

The definition of a good hunt can change a lot over the years.
 
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supercorndogs

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I had at best in my gun gotten 1 1/2 moa with factory loads of 207 and 208 subs.
I know the bc in those is crazy good but they measure it at super.
Some bench loader told me to try flat base since I was staying at 100 yd.
Went full on retro and used fbrn, resulting in sub moa in my gun.
Decided it would be fine give a lot of restraint on shot choice.

Have a city employee interested in it for management use.
Evedently fits the bill better than what they use on the golf course.
Very little blood loss if caught just below the ear.
If you were to miss it won't go far.
Won't disturb suburbia like a shotgun.

Those lehigh's are great but at a price and make a bit of a mess.
Spife has helped me with this load, but also does not use it for hunting.

I would only recomend hunting with it at 100 yards and less in light winds,
By reserved well practiced shooters willing to pass on a lot of marginal shots.

The definition of a good hunt can change a lot over the years.
Why is low blood loss a factor? And disturbing suburbia? You are making it should like you are shooting deer some place you shouldn't be.
 

kindabitey

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Killed plenty of deer with subs. Practice and know your dope. 300 blackout is a great round . Hornady 190 sub-x is the best factory load for hunting . If you reload Trail boss and the 90 gr XTP is a proven killer. Below is the 190 sub x test bullet . Passed through 4 milk jugs full of water and caught it in the 5th. My set up is Remington 700 300 blackout 16.5” swfa 10x HS Percision stock.
To add to this, I pulled a couple of the 190 sub-x, and down loaded to around 750 fps and shot into gel.
MVIMG_20180218_142656.jpg
 

j-huskey

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Why is low blood loss a factor? And disturbing suburbia? You are making it should like you are shooting deer some place you shouldn't be.
Municipal contract to remove pest animals required quiet, ie, no disturb suburbia. Deer eat city shrubbery... alligators eat yap dogs. Coyotes eat cats.. blackout and Lehigh work wonders on deer and coyotes. 22mag works on gator..

Local golf courses have pest permits to remove armadillos and houses back up to golf course, therefore, no noise to disturb suburbia and soccer moms, and no bloody evidence left to disturb soccer mom or their uber sensitive children...

This has been posted here (hide) a couple of times b4.

Electric golf cart and all shots taken had to be away from housing taking a 45° ricochet fan into consideration.

And in each of those cases, definitely supposed to be there.

A lot of these pest removals are not advertised bc of animal lover sjw types getting really offended and annoying city government...

Shot placement is critical.
B4 the blackout and suppressors, deer depredation in suburbia was done with a bow and arrow, and due to too many going off and dieing in yards, driveways, swimming pools, yada, etc, a good crossbow did wonders... blackout offers better shot placement.

And then, there is energy expended..
20181205_130556.jpg
 
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Snuby642

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@supercorndogs I went from unethical to poacher now?

not very intuitive if you read the thread.

I have a friend that does city services including cropping an
Overrun deer herd, relocation attempts have been costly.
safety, discretion, and noise are a factor, as is prompt retrival.
anything elese has people bitching to the city manager and mayor.


Apparently 308 with the standard 1/10 twist does not stablise heavy
subs very well, I have not loaded any. 1/7 for the bo does well.
we will try some of the Hornady subs for accuracy but in my
case expansion is secondary to a clean shot.
edit: bold text was unintended, ? Stuck?, still stuck? Damn
 
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supercorndogs

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@supercorndogs I went from unethical to poacher now?

not very intuitive if you read the thread.

I have a friend that does city services including cropping an
Overrun deer herd, relocation attempts have been costly.
safety, discretion, and noise are a factor, as is prompt retrival.
anything elese has people bitching to the city manager and mayor.


Apparently 308 with the standard 1/10 twist does not stablise heavy
subs very well, I have not loaded any. 1/7 for the bo does well.
we will try some of the Hornady subs for accuracy but in my
case expansion is secondary to a clean shot.
edit: bold text was unintended, ? Stuck?, still stuck? Damn
No, it s question.
 
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Snuby642

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Unethical, poacher, drama queen, any thing you forgot?
Get it all out of your system, you seem to be on a roll.

Lmao

The op wanted to know about subs and hunting, the deal is you can.
Ice pick them with sub moa hand loads, or get the lehigh's both work in 300 blk.

Anyting constructive to add to the conversation? Or do you not shoot subs?
 

Hannibal01

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I do. It’s a great place to hunt if you got acreage that isn’t surrounded by high fences. Lol. No high fences near my place thankfully. Lots of critters around from Axis a zebras.
 

Hannibal01

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Myself and a couple close friends have property in Harper, Kerrville and Hunt. All three are either low fence to keep the goats and sheep in or no fence at all. Lots of exotics. I even shot the number 1 Muntjac in the US in Harper. It’s the 2nd largest in the world and the only free range Muntjac ever registered with SCI (in the US). We have about 20 running around there free range.
 

bmicek

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Built me a fast twist 45/70 TC Encore for subs. I have stabilized up to 730gr cast bullets but will likely hunt with 600gr soft cast bullets with a deep hollow point. Was shooting them through the chrono behind the house and left holes in the yard like you shot a bowling ball out of it.

Nothing wrong with using subs as long as you use the proper bullet and know your limits.
 
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Gtscotty

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Built me a fast twist 45/70 TC Encore for subs. I have stabilized up to 730gr cast bullets but will likely hunt with 600gr soft cast bullets with a deep hollow point. Was shooting them through the chrono behind the house and left holes in the yard like you shot a bowling ball out of it.

Nothing wrong with using subs as long as you use the proper bullet and know your limits.
That sounds like a neat setup, do you have any pictures? Where did you get the fast twist barrel?

I've been toying with the idea of having a 77/44 chopped and threaded for use as a short range silent deer thumper with bullets along the lines of these:

GT 305gr hp

Can't see how it wouldn't work as long as ranges are kept short.
 

bmicek

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That sounds like a neat setup, do you have any pictures? Where did you get the fast twist barrel?

I've been toying with the idea of having a 77/44 chopped and threaded for use as a short range silent deer thumper with bullets along the lines of these:

GT 305gr hp

Can't see how it wouldn't work as long as ranges are kept short.
Barrel is a 16.5” 1:10 Twist from MGM (Match Grade Matchine). Had it throated long for these longer heavy projectiles.
 

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B y r o n

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Myself and a couple close friends have property in Harper, Kerrville and Hunt. All three are either low fence to keep the goats and sheep in or no fence at all. Lots of exotics. I even shot the number 1 Muntjac in the US in Harper. It’s the 2nd largest in the world and the only free range Muntjac ever registered with SCI (in the US). We have about 20 running around there free range.
Anything with teeth like this needs to be shot. :)

Barking_deer_skeleton[1].jpg
 
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